Remove ads

The Voyage Without

Reader mode
While I'm with Zephyr on this mostly, I often end up using Hanlon's Razor "Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity." I think that fits Neelix pretty damn well.
 
By everything we see, Neelix does genuinely mean well and was at least canny enough to survive as an independent trader in notably hostile space. His luck is not great either, outside Kes.
 
Winged One said:
Hanlon's Razor is bunk... except when it comes to actual well-meaning idiots like Neelix.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I think it is totally fair to point out that incompetence is highly prevalent but I usually have Hanlon thrown at me when I'm talking to people about anti government conspiracy stuff where we have hundreds of years of evidence that it is, in fact, deeply malevolent.
 
Eman Resu said:
I think it is totally fair to point out that incompetence is highly prevalent but I usually have Hanlon thrown at me when I'm talking to people about anti government conspiracy stuff where we have hundreds of years of evidence that it is, in fact, deeply malevolent.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I still get dirty looks from the family when I point out that me and crazy Uncle Randy might have to pack in the tin foil soon because we're running out of conspiracy theories that haven't been proven true recently.

Might have something to do with me playing b these bangers at the dinner table when I say it it.


View: https://youtu.be/KGAAhzreGWw


View: https://youtu.be/9JRLCBb7qK8


View: https://youtu.be/MCOjFWuJKUk
 
please, please take this conversation somewhere else. This is not the appropriate thread for… whatever this is.

Zephyr has a decent read on Neelix, but I think he's slightly misattributing his tendency to get things… wrong. The issue isn't that neelix is intentionally lying or as Zephyr thinks blustering - it's that he genuinely thinks he knows more than he does, and thanks to Voyager's main-character luck everything he doesn't know is always going to come out of the woodwork and cause problems, making him look bad when anyone else not at the center of The Plot would never see that shit happen.
 
Byzantine said:
please, please take this conversation somewhere else. This is not the appropriate thread for… whatever this is.

Zephyr has a decent read on Neelix, but I think he's slightly misattributing his tendency to get things… wrong. The issue isn't that neelix is intentionally lying or as Zephyr thinks blustering - it's that he genuinely thinks he knows more than he does, and thanks to Voyager's main-character luck everything he doesn't know is always going to come out of the woodwork and cause problems, making him look bad when anyone else not at the center of The Plot would never see that shit happen.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I myself believe it is the case that Neelix truly did have a good time visiting/trading/talking/whatever with [current planet] the last time he was here.

You know, with his own small not-too-technologically-advanced and not-threatening vessel that isn't a massive opportunity for entire planetary governments if you get control of it.
Then he expects everything will be the same when he shows up with Voyager and crew.
Who are a few full revolutions further on both the threat-o-meter and the opportunity-o-meter for anyone local.
Which makes the plot of the week happen because most people don't want anything in particular from Neelix, but those same people very much want things from Voyager, and therefore promote their own interests a lot harder and in ways Neelix didn't witness the last time he (and he alone) was around.
 
Resident Lesbian bemoans lack of partners -> invites a female character to game night

Well, she's probably willing to have sex with women? Or so Dinah is hoping.
 
Moochy said:
I'd like to see Q running from a very pissed off dragon demanding explanations, but that'd require Q be vulnerable to him to be actually funny.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sisko proved that even with his powers, he's just as vulnerable as a human when he's in human form. Zephyr tail-slapping him into a wall probably can't kill him, but he will feel it.
Saphire said:
I'll eat a hat if they aren't a biological threat that grows exponentially and very very quickly. Plant monster of the week, anyone?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's probably just Neelix's waifu Leola Root.
Hiver said:
Neelix… traitor or not? I had no evidence for that. No direct evidence anyway… and I admittedly was biased against him because of the fact that I couldn't be in the same room without gagging.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
My guess is going to be Neelix's ship has some passive characteristic that makes it very easy for the Kazon to pick up on their sensors.
 
I wonder if the whole Neelix deal is going to turn out to be that he's unwittingly using pheromones as a social lubricant that makes all these stops work out well when he visited them, which isn't working for Voyager because they're not sending him.
M. H. Fuzzball said:
My guess is going to be Neelix's ship has some passive characteristic that makes it very easy for the Kazon to pick up on their sensors.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Is Neelix's ship even going outside Voyager these days?
 
Eman Resu said:
I think it is totally fair to point out that incompetence is highly prevalent but I usually have Hanlon thrown at me when I'm talking to people about anti government conspiracy stuff where we have hundreds of years of evidence that it is, in fact, deeply malevolent.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It is an unfortunate fact that Hanlon's Razor falls into the category of "common excuses people whip out when their primary concern is avoiding inconveniencing themselves", whatever merits it might independently have.

Or, as I like to counter-battery fire, "The best way to interpret the resulting behavior of any bureaucratic organization is to assume it is being heavily influenced, if not outright controlled, by a cabal of its enemies."

On a slightly more topical note, I wonder when Zephyr is going to get around to using a pomander when Neelix is there. Snooty dragon not-so-subtly indicating that Neelix stinks with funny nose ornaments tickles my funny bone.
 
Last edited:
CanYouMeme said:
It is an unfortunate fact that Hanlon's Razor falls into the category of "common excuses people whip out when their primary concern is avoiding inconveniencing themselves", whatever merits it might independently have.

Or, as I like to counter-battery fire, "The best way to interpret the resulting behavior of any bureaucratic organization is to assume it is being heavily influenced, if not outright controlled, by a cabal of its enemies."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
...but that's a domain-specific supporting argument to Hanlon's Razor, unless you believe bureaucratic organizations actually are controlled by cabals of their enemies.
 
Aineko said:
...but that's a domain-specific supporting argument to Hanlon's Razor, unless you believe bureaucratic organizations actually are controlled by cabals of their enemies.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Espionage and subversion have literally been an integral part of bureaucracy for as long as buraucracy has existed, and history is in a large part decided by when and how such groups, national mercantile and otherwise, are destroyed by subversion. If your reaction to serious bureaucratic fuck-ups does not include some variant of sweeping for such activities...

Hanlon's Razor demands that your response to fuck-ups be restraint imposed on your part. My counterpart demands there be restraint imposed on their part.

Or, to put it another way, Hanlon's Razor demands you make a distinction between the two and treat them differently. My counterpart demands there is no functional difference between the two, and that you don't even consider a difference in treatment until after the issue has been contained.

Unnecessarily harsh, you say? I don't agree, and even if I did I would point out my proposed treatment is the human default as far as bureaucracy is concerned. If you want something different, you had better start coming up with really motherfucking good reasons as to why.
 
CanYouMeme said:
Espionage and subversion have literally been an integral part of bureaucracy for as long as buraucracy has existed, and history is in a large part decided by when and how such groups, national mercantile and otherwise, are destroyed by subversion. If your reaction to serious bureaucratic fuck-ups does not include some variant of sweeping for such activities...

Hanlon's Razor demands that your response to fuck-ups be restraint imposed on your part. My counterpart demands there be restraint imposed on their part.

Or, to put it another way, Hanlon's Razor demands you make a distinction between the two and treat them differently. My counterpart demands there is no functional difference between the two, and that you don't even consider a difference in treatment until after the issue has been contained.

Unnecessarily harsh, you say? I don't agree, and even if I did I would point out my proposed treatment is the human default as far as bureaucracy is concerned. If you want something different, you had better start coming up with really motherfucking good reasons as to why.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sir, madam, or otherwise, this is a Wendy's.
 
Remove ads
36
  • Threadmarks
    • Studying the board for several long moments I then nodded, "Vulcan," I said and carefully gave my piece a poke with a claw to slide it across the starmap before giving the spinner a small flick, "Twelve. With my modifier, that's sixteen. Ground forces, correct?"

    "Correct," Dinah grumbled and reached over to put the planet card on the table before me, "You've never played this before, how are you winning!?"

    "Natural abilities."

    "Beginner's luck is more like it," Tom Paris said with a grin and looked through his cards, "If he's taking Vulcan, I'm going to fortify Andoria with 'Increased supplies', bringing it up to plus six."

    I snorted, "That will not save you. The galaxy is mine."

    As it should be.

    "I like this game, we should play it more often," I then added to Dinah.

    She glanced at the clock, "...Speaking of which, it's 01:00. We should likely pause for now and continue later."

    "Oh damn, it's that late?" Jennifer asked and stretched, "I have an early shift, I need to get going."

    She turned out to be somebody I did recognize, if only by sight. She was a crewman, working in security. Redhead and taller than Dinah. While not against regulation, if Dinah was looking for a mate that was still a poor choice.

    Then again, they were likely just friends. Besides, it's not like she had a lot of options.

    "Same," Harry agreed and smiled, "Should have known better, no such thing as a fast game of Alpha Quadrant. Back at the academy we had one that went on for months."

    "Ah, you have all fallen for my devious plan," Dinah said with a grin, leaning back in her chair, "...same time next week?"

    I chuckled, "Dinah, we're stuck in interstellar space for the next decades. Scheduling conflicts are going to be few."

    "Ah, so that's what it takes to get a regular game going," she said, shooting me a grin.

    I mean... she wasn't wrong.

    "Likely helps," I agreed and then nodded, "Same time next week works for me."

    "Sounds good to me too," Harry agreed. Jennifer nodded in agreement.

    "Sure," Paris said and started to get up.

    I studied the board as everyone started to head out. I still needed to lock down my occupation of Vulcan, but everybody likely expected me to move on to Andoria after that. So let's not do that. I needed to figure out what to do instead, but I had a week to think about it.

    Finally I pushed myself onto my paws and looked to Dinah, "Good night."

    "Night Zeph," she said and continued picking up mugs to put in the replicator.

    I left and headed down the corridor only to find Paris waiting for me.

    I paused as he held a hand up, "Yes?"

    "Let's talk," he said and crossed his arms.

    I tilted my head slightly, "We need to discuss something?"

    "I don't know, do we?" he asked, eyebrows raising, "We played that game for six hours and I can count the sentences you said to me on my fingers. You don't like me."

    Shifting slightly, I sat down on the deck of the corridor as I studied him, "No. I don't."

    "Because of my past."

    I blinked in surprise, "No."

    "No?"

    "No. I don't like you because you're this ship's main pilot and you are likely to get us all killed."

    "What!?" He asked, sounding surprised, "What the hell do you mean by that!?"

    "Exactly what I meant," I said, "Your history shows it."

    "That was an accident!"

    I shook my head, "I don't mean your shuttle accident, Paris. Not directly. I have read your file. I speak of your lack of a spine. Some people died, you ran and tried to hide it. And then instead of keeping it going, you folded to your own pressure and admitted it. You got kicked out of Starfleet and instead of making something of yourself, you let it get to you and joined the Maquis. Not because of any sort of conviction that can be admired in a way, but because it was easy. They'd take anyone, especially somebody with Starfleet training. Then you got caught in your first mission. Instead of taking your prison sentence, you folded and betrayed your previous comrades for a reduced sentence by agreeing to guide Voyager through the badlands to find them. So no, Paris. I don't like you and I don't trust you. Something will go wrong in a dangerous situation and you will fold."

    He more or less gaped at me.

    "You're a coward, Paris," I told him, "What's worse, you don't even admit to it because that would mean standing for something. And that's going to get people killed."

    He stared at me for several long moments before he turned and walked away without a word.

    Case. In. Point.

    I looked after him until he walked out of view before I started to move again, heading towards my quarters.

    Suppose that'll make gaming night awkward next time if he bothers showing up. I didn't particularly care if he did or not, I might not like him, but he wasn't actively unpleasant company.

    Entering my cabin, I crossed over and settled down on my sleeping mat.

    Sleep.
     
  • Threadmarks
    • Oof, this was like the 'reasons you Suck' speech from Family guy where Quagmire forces you to take a step back, think objectively, and fully realise what a piece of shit Brian actually is.

    Not quite the same though, since even as a kid the way Paris gaslighted Bellana for the full course of their relationship irked me so I already don't much like him. This is also early enough on that he might actually have time to change before th8ngs settle into a routine and he gets comfortable in his own skin again.
     
    Pew - Head.Shot. Although probably not the kind Zephyr would prefer.

    And it's not a proper game of Risk Monopoly Alpha Quadrant until factions have formed in the local neighborhood and have begun flamboyantly poking fun at each other over dinner.
     
    Hiver said:
    You're a coward, Paris
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Harsh but... true?
    Hum... Let's see a little how Paris was in canon.
    *searching*

    Okay... Zephyr is right, at least for the first year of canon adventures, but Paris managed to grow, helped by Kim and Bellana.
    Besides, Zephyr isn't without defaults: His draconic side interferes with his relationships. Only those who worked alongside him can truly understand him and his draconic shenanigans.

    Well, Zephyr, let's see if you can understand those you don't like as Voyager travels.
     
    Zephyr is actually surprisingly good at understanding people, and having reasonable reasons to dislike them, even if he gets a bit... pushy about how he shows it.

    Who knows, maybe this was what Paris needed to actually figure himself out.
     
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top