Winged One
Not the Simurgh
- Location
- definitely the ground
- Pronouns
- They/Them/It
Perhaps she's just the first to decide to dedicate her life to medicine, because everyone else considering transferring is hesitating due to liking their current jobs?
The Voyage Without
- Thread starter Hiver
- Start date
Darth Cooter
(Verified Lord of Cooters)(Dark Proprietor)(AP)
- Location
- error -loc root/users/dcooter not found
So is anyone else eargly awaiting Zephyr vs Hirogen? Cause ya know, if it's cannon Hirogen, They'll try to pelt him, or maybe worship him as the ultimate apex predator....or maybe both 
Probably both......
Probably both......
NemiTheNen
Perpetual Phone Poster
No, they're consuming it right now to check on Zephyr. There is no proof he's training her when he's not needed.
Look, let's say the EMH is a 14 and first-aide is 1-3. That means for problems that are 4 and up, or being realistic, 3 and up, the EMH has to be on.
Let's say it takes a month to get Kes up to 5, now suddenly for the next at least 7 years you save the EMH from needing to be active for, idk, broken bones and minor burns. That's probably going to add up to more than the extra time spent active training her.
Like jist from.this interaction she can now take care of the weekly scans and tests etc on Zephyr and the emh can review when he's next active, insread of having to be active for each visit
She can continue learning from the EMH when he's active for emergencies, and also by book study.
During that time Kes can get other people up to her level without needing the EMH active.
She's also nonvital personel and can move outside of the sickbay. Meaning that if someone needs medical help she can go to them without takingg anyone else off their possibly important job.
We really need more data to speculate fruitfully. How many hours of EMH time does it take to teach Kes a procedure? How long does it take the EMH to do it? How often is it necessary? We don't know those numbers, and neither does the Voyager crew.
Kes's assistance could extend the lifetime of the EMH by, at most, 7 years. On a sixty year voyage. And that's if she could learn everything it knows instantly, and could continue practicing until she dies of old age. More relistically she can extend it maybe four years, because training her up fully will take at least two, and the last year of her life she'll be the equivalent of a ninety year old, so she'll be needing the EMH as much as she's helping it.
Again, the problem isn't that she's getting training, it's that there's no mention of anyone else getting training.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
I don't think we really need to know any specifics of that. Like, why would we? She was the one present here, so she was included.
In a fanfic of a known setting, the default assumption is that "unless specified otherwise, it's as per canon." Otherwise has not been specified, soo... right now the default assumption is that Kes is the only one getting training from the doctor.
...We specifically know canon rails are on fire and falling into the gorge, so that's a real shaky assumption to be defaulting to.
- Pronouns
- They/Their
I mean, normally, yeah, but the weight of evidence lays on the one making the claim.
And so far, we simply *haven't seen* anything to indicate there's more people training for the inevitability of the EMH going down in a definitive manner.
Thus, it's not as much of a stretch to assume that the reason we haven't seen anyone is because they don't exist, given we don't see any anywhere else in the lore, and we were told the Medical Staff ended up dying when the ship got yoinked by the Caretaker.
- Location
- Elsewhere
As I recall, in canon Tom Paris was also trained by the EMH as a field medic because apparently him taking two semesters of biochemistry at Starfleet Academy which him the most qualified candidate (why Samantha Wildman, a xenobiologist, wasn't considered a better fit for the job than the ship's primary helmsman I'll never understand).
34
I peered into the nacelle of the shuttle having just removed the cover, slowly tilting my head.
What.
Raising my head, I blinked before I lowered my head and looked again.
What.
Raising my head once more, I looked around before spotting somebody, "Ensign Kim?"
"Lieutenant?" Harry Kim asked as he changed course, walking up to me, "What can I help you with?"
I motioned towards the open nacelle with a paw, "Mind having a look in there and tell me what you see?"
"Alright," he agreed and leaned down to look into the open nacelle for several seconds before he quickly stood back up again, "...Is that…"
"The object blocking the power coupling from closing properly," I agreed with a nod, "It's an… adult toy. Thank you for confirming that for me. I am not seeing things."
"...What is…"
He looked as confused as I felt.
"I don't know," I admitted and sighed, "And I don't care to investigate," I continued before raising my voice so it carried for the rest of the people working on the hangar deck, "But if it happens again, I will be pulling DNA and whomever the owner is, will be eating it."
People suddenly got very busy.
I really, really hope it was a prank instead of somebody trying to hide it to keep from getting caught. I took a deep breath before I nodded to Kim, "Thank you, Ensign. Could you…"
He raised his hands and backed away, turning away and walking away.
…Yeah, fair…
I eyed the shuttle.
Maybe I should just burn the entire thing? Or… hmm. The Val Jean was low on shuttles, I knew that much. Maybe we should offer them one of ours, we did have sufficient after all.
"Janeway to Zephyr."
"Zephyr here."
"Please report to my ready room."
"On my way, Captain," I said and headed for the exit while ordering Muninn to dispose of the offending object and then go through a full decontamination cycle.
This is one thing I am suddenly feeling a need to attend in person.
I made my way through the ship and was soon unfolding myself from inside the lift to the bridge before moving across to touch the door.
"Enter."
I did so and moved to sit down, curling my tail to allow the door to close, "Captain."
"Lieutenant," Janeway said and put down her coffee cup, "I discussed your suggestion to Commander Tuvok."
"Which one, sir?" I asked, tilting my head a bit.
"Your idea to replace some less critical locations with drones," she said and leaned back in her chair, "The same model that's currently being tested back in the Federation."
I nodded, "Your thoughts about it, Captain?"
Janeway looked thoughtful, "Right now our biggest problem is our lack of people. We were running light even before we lost people being thrown across the galaxy. If we have the resources, and if they can do the job, your drones can very well help us quite a bit."
"Indeed. They're not magical, they have zero initiative, they're meant to supplement and assist. They're not meant to replace a person," I said and sighed, "They just don't have the processing power for anything else. Did you discuss my second suggestion?"
Janeway frowned, "A managing AI."
"In a way," I clarified, "It's actually the same matrix used by the drones, but with the processing power of the ship's main computer behind it and with a limited overlaying personality matrix similar to a holodeck character to give it some initiative. It wouldn't actually be thinking, no more than any other holodeck character, but it could be used to guide the drones."
The Captain studied me for several long moments, "Just like that? Just whipping up an AI?"
I snorted, "We do AI all the time. Holodecks use generative AI within specific parameters. Most of our sensors and computer systems, all the way down to phasers already use AI for such simple things. What we can't do, barring Lieutenant-Commander Data, is create actual sophont AI. My suggestion is something significantly simpler than even the ship's main computer, but give it a bit of initiative."
Janeway frowned, "It sounds risky."
"Oh it is," I agreed with a nod, "But do you remember the subject we discussed in the past where I was to reveal classified items I worked on in the past if it may be important for the safety of the ship?"
Now both eyebrows went up instead, "You worked on an AI for Starfleet Intelligence?"
"I was on the team to create an AI for Starfleet Intelligence, using exactly the method described," I told her, "Specifically for analyzing intelligence data. Anyone can do that, we have all the puzzle pieces and have had them for years. The issue is processing power and to keep the stupid thing from wanting to murder us all."
In theory, we could make super intelligent AI using this method by just throwing processing power at the problem. In theory. So far however, all that had been accomplished by trying was to make something that was pretty dumb, faster at being dumb and with horrendous diminishing returns.
So yes, the thing I built when I worked with SFI was pretty fast and really good in its specific area while an idiot in the rest, it also took up the entire processing power of the largest supercomputer in the Federation, barring possibly the one at the Daystrom institute.
"Excuse me!?"
"A joke, Captain," I chuckled, "It's a specially programmed holodeck personality matrix overlaid on some extra processing power, not a super intelligent AI. It would be specialized mostly in managing and directing groups of drones according to instructions."
AE MKVII I made for SFI had not tried to kill anyone.
Hell, they had not tried that since MKIV and I personally fixed that bug. That and it was a left over since before I joined the project anyway.
Janeway looked thoughtful, "Let's start with a couple of drones, see how it goes before we pour a bunch of resources into it."
"Agreed, Captain."
What.
Raising my head, I blinked before I lowered my head and looked again.
What.
Raising my head once more, I looked around before spotting somebody, "Ensign Kim?"
"Lieutenant?" Harry Kim asked as he changed course, walking up to me, "What can I help you with?"
I motioned towards the open nacelle with a paw, "Mind having a look in there and tell me what you see?"
"Alright," he agreed and leaned down to look into the open nacelle for several seconds before he quickly stood back up again, "...Is that…"
"The object blocking the power coupling from closing properly," I agreed with a nod, "It's an… adult toy. Thank you for confirming that for me. I am not seeing things."
"...What is…"
He looked as confused as I felt.
"I don't know," I admitted and sighed, "And I don't care to investigate," I continued before raising my voice so it carried for the rest of the people working on the hangar deck, "But if it happens again, I will be pulling DNA and whomever the owner is, will be eating it."
People suddenly got very busy.
I really, really hope it was a prank instead of somebody trying to hide it to keep from getting caught. I took a deep breath before I nodded to Kim, "Thank you, Ensign. Could you…"
He raised his hands and backed away, turning away and walking away.
…Yeah, fair…
I eyed the shuttle.
Maybe I should just burn the entire thing? Or… hmm. The Val Jean was low on shuttles, I knew that much. Maybe we should offer them one of ours, we did have sufficient after all.
"Janeway to Zephyr."
"Zephyr here."
"Please report to my ready room."
"On my way, Captain," I said and headed for the exit while ordering Muninn to dispose of the offending object and then go through a full decontamination cycle.
This is one thing I am suddenly feeling a need to attend in person.
I made my way through the ship and was soon unfolding myself from inside the lift to the bridge before moving across to touch the door.
"Enter."
I did so and moved to sit down, curling my tail to allow the door to close, "Captain."
"Lieutenant," Janeway said and put down her coffee cup, "I discussed your suggestion to Commander Tuvok."
"Which one, sir?" I asked, tilting my head a bit.
"Your idea to replace some less critical locations with drones," she said and leaned back in her chair, "The same model that's currently being tested back in the Federation."
I nodded, "Your thoughts about it, Captain?"
Janeway looked thoughtful, "Right now our biggest problem is our lack of people. We were running light even before we lost people being thrown across the galaxy. If we have the resources, and if they can do the job, your drones can very well help us quite a bit."
"Indeed. They're not magical, they have zero initiative, they're meant to supplement and assist. They're not meant to replace a person," I said and sighed, "They just don't have the processing power for anything else. Did you discuss my second suggestion?"
Janeway frowned, "A managing AI."
"In a way," I clarified, "It's actually the same matrix used by the drones, but with the processing power of the ship's main computer behind it and with a limited overlaying personality matrix similar to a holodeck character to give it some initiative. It wouldn't actually be thinking, no more than any other holodeck character, but it could be used to guide the drones."
The Captain studied me for several long moments, "Just like that? Just whipping up an AI?"
I snorted, "We do AI all the time. Holodecks use generative AI within specific parameters. Most of our sensors and computer systems, all the way down to phasers already use AI for such simple things. What we can't do, barring Lieutenant-Commander Data, is create actual sophont AI. My suggestion is something significantly simpler than even the ship's main computer, but give it a bit of initiative."
Janeway frowned, "It sounds risky."
"Oh it is," I agreed with a nod, "But do you remember the subject we discussed in the past where I was to reveal classified items I worked on in the past if it may be important for the safety of the ship?"
Now both eyebrows went up instead, "You worked on an AI for Starfleet Intelligence?"
"I was on the team to create an AI for Starfleet Intelligence, using exactly the method described," I told her, "Specifically for analyzing intelligence data. Anyone can do that, we have all the puzzle pieces and have had them for years. The issue is processing power and to keep the stupid thing from wanting to murder us all."
In theory, we could make super intelligent AI using this method by just throwing processing power at the problem. In theory. So far however, all that had been accomplished by trying was to make something that was pretty dumb, faster at being dumb and with horrendous diminishing returns.
So yes, the thing I built when I worked with SFI was pretty fast and really good in its specific area while an idiot in the rest, it also took up the entire processing power of the largest supercomputer in the Federation, barring possibly the one at the Daystrom institute.
"Excuse me!?"
"A joke, Captain," I chuckled, "It's a specially programmed holodeck personality matrix overlaid on some extra processing power, not a super intelligent AI. It would be specialized mostly in managing and directing groups of drones according to instructions."
AE MKVII I made for SFI had not tried to kill anyone.
Hell, they had not tried that since MKIV and I personally fixed that bug. That and it was a left over since before I joined the project anyway.
Janeway looked thoughtful, "Let's start with a couple of drones, see how it goes before we pour a bunch of resources into it."
"Agreed, Captain."
- Location
- Orbit
"This version hasn't tried to murder anyone!"
"...this version?"
"it's super safe and would really fix our--"
"I repeat, THIS VERSION!?"
Winged One
Not the Simurgh
- Location
- definitely the ground
- Pronouns
- They/Them/It
...okay, I think he might be the foremost expert in AI in the Federation short of Commander Data. The evilness bug has plagued AI throughout the franchise, across multiple different cultures.
- Location
- England
Can't do reliably and intentionally, including Lieutenant-Commander Data.
I'm sure there were a bunch of accidental one-offs. Moriaty, off the top of my head (incidentally, Federation really racking up the crimes against sentience there with their solution. You'd think they'd be able to give Moriaty an unarmed runabout in the real world instead of leaving him stuck in fake one.)
Given the sort of people it would have encountered, I consider this a mark against it being a true sophont.
Last edited:
Careful Zeph, the owner might be into that.
bobnik
Memetic Warfare Specialist.
Zephyr programmed it. It doesn't try to kill stinky monkeys, it succeeds at killing stinky monkeys. Especially the ones who like mint. And then makes it look like an accident.
Darth Cooter
(Verified Lord of Cooters)(Dark Proprietor)(AP)
- Location
- error -loc root/users/dcooter not found
And this is why ensign Kim never get's promoted. Zephyr could have phrased that request as an official order, but might just remember how helpful Kim was, when it comes time for promotion reviews
KillerFish
Grumpy Owl, Bird Lawyer
Wait … does Neelix naturally smell vaguely of mint? Because that might explain a few things.
Hello,
Stumbled upon your works Hiver, binged The Last Step, Not Quite Shodan, New Beginnings, all quite good work. However I do have a question and I couldn't find a way to ask it besides this or necro posting on the previous thread.
Are you still planning to continue the series: Here be dragons and Feathers and Fire? They were both posted 10+ years ago and they are still listed as not abandoned on your google doc index. It would be a shame if they are totally abandoned as they are quite good stories.
Thanks, in advance.
Stumbled upon your works Hiver, binged The Last Step, Not Quite Shodan, New Beginnings, all quite good work. However I do have a question and I couldn't find a way to ask it besides this or necro posting on the previous thread.
Are you still planning to continue the series: Here be dragons and Feathers and Fire? They were both posted 10+ years ago and they are still listed as not abandoned on your google doc index. It would be a shame if they are totally abandoned as they are quite good stories.
Thanks, in advance.
Thanks for reading, but sadly they won't be continued. I have however considered reusing the concept at some point for a rewrite.
- Location
- Orbit
be very careful with ai's just smart enough to paperclip their way into serious amounts of genocide…
You know, for the AI one why weren't any powers shown to develop cybernetic interfaces or even just a read only monitor to cut down on the interface gap (ie the time it takes to process the information on a screen and manually input orders by finger) to become competitive with the hostile AI warships?
35
"What do you know of this world?" Janeway asked, looking towards Neelix.
"Oh, very friendly," he said with a smile, "And fairly advanced. They have some of the biggest museums in the quadrant!"
Tuvok raised one eyebrow, "Intriguing."
Janeway glanced at him, "The crew could use shore leave," she mused, "The last couple of times were not really successes."
"If they're advanced enough that the Kazon do not bother them," I said through Huginn, "Perhaps that is viable. Neelix, how advanced?"
"Oh, nothing like Voyager. But more so than the Kazon and they have large and powerful ships, even if they don't control a lot of space," he said, "They don't seem like they like to travel. The Veluu are an insectoid species, about this tall," he said, holding his hand up above his head, "Love their sweets."
Janeway smiled, "Well, you convinced me," he said, "Mister Paris, get together with Neelix and plot a course. Anyone else have anything to bring up?"
Nobody said anything so she nodded, "Dismissed."
As everybody started to file out, I had Huginn remain behind.
Janeway remained behind before looking at Huginn, "Lieutenant?" she asked with a frown, "Are you there?"
"I am indeed," I said, turning Huginns head towards her, "Captain, I can't help but notice that we have visited two worlds so far on Neelix's recommendation and we have been ambushed by the Kazon each time."
She folded her hands on the meeting room table, "You think he is doing it on purpose?"
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. A quote back from where I grew up. We are currently at two times, Captain," I told her, "There is another one, there is no such thing as coincidence."
Janeway looked thoughtful, "You don't trust him?"
"No. Why is he here? Self interest clearly. He has his own little ship, he has his Kes. He is clearly not bound to this area of space, he could leave for friendlier space anytime he wishes," I said, "He is not bound to this territory. He is not bound to us or this ship. Nor does Voyager give him protection as we attract Kazon attention."
The Captain frowned slightly, "You think he's working with the Kazon?"
"No, I think he's a selfish idiot," I snorted, "And that he doesn't know this area of space anywhere near as good as he put on. What I do think is that nothing he says can be trusted, not necessarily out of malice, but because he's giving us what he thinks we want. I also think that the moment it will be advantageous, he'll sell us out."
Janeway shook her head, "Chakotay has shared similar thoughts. As has Mister Tuvok"
At least somebody has some sense.
"We'll keep an eye on things," Janeway said thoughtfully, "No more than a third of the crew at shore leave at a time. Set the computer to monitor Neelix's movements."
I snorted in amusement. Like I had not had the computer do that since the start. With no result either, so maybe I was unfair.
But better safe than sorry.
"Done, Captain," I agreed with a nod, "I will also expand it to Kes, just in case. I'll discuss it with Lieutenant Navari."
Janeway frowned but nodded, "Very well. Dismissed."
I nodded and then disconnected from Huginn, ordering the drone to return to engineering. Stretching a bit, I pushed myself up to sit on the upper level of engineering, turning my head to look at the warp core.
It hummed away calmly.
Neelix… traitor or not? I had no evidence for that. No direct evidence anyway… and I admittedly was biased against him because of the fact that I couldn't be in the same room without gagging.
I guess we'll see what happens this time.
"Dinah to Zephyr."
"Zephyr here."
"Hey, do you have anything planned tonight?" she asked and I tilted my head before answering,
"Not particularly. Why do you ask?"
"Because I'm hosting board game night in my cabin. You're coming, right?"
I hesitated, "...How many are invited?"
"Not many, even without counting you, I don't live in a ballroom. The ones I have confirmed are Harry, Tom and Jennifer."
"Who?"
Dinah sighed, "Harry Kim, Tom Paris and Jennifer Harrison."
I slowly blinked and then let it go. I'd likely recognize her when I see her, "Fine," I said, "When?"
"Awesome. Be there at seven, don't bother bringing anything. I'll arrange all the snacks. Navari out!"
The channel closed and I studied the warp core.
Oh well. The Convict could likely not be trusted, but at least he didn't smell any worse than any other human and he was entertaining enough. Nothing against Harry Kim and I had no clue who Jennifer Harrison was.
I suppose I'll find out.
"Oh, very friendly," he said with a smile, "And fairly advanced. They have some of the biggest museums in the quadrant!"
Tuvok raised one eyebrow, "Intriguing."
Janeway glanced at him, "The crew could use shore leave," she mused, "The last couple of times were not really successes."
"If they're advanced enough that the Kazon do not bother them," I said through Huginn, "Perhaps that is viable. Neelix, how advanced?"
"Oh, nothing like Voyager. But more so than the Kazon and they have large and powerful ships, even if they don't control a lot of space," he said, "They don't seem like they like to travel. The Veluu are an insectoid species, about this tall," he said, holding his hand up above his head, "Love their sweets."
Janeway smiled, "Well, you convinced me," he said, "Mister Paris, get together with Neelix and plot a course. Anyone else have anything to bring up?"
Nobody said anything so she nodded, "Dismissed."
As everybody started to file out, I had Huginn remain behind.
Janeway remained behind before looking at Huginn, "Lieutenant?" she asked with a frown, "Are you there?"
"I am indeed," I said, turning Huginns head towards her, "Captain, I can't help but notice that we have visited two worlds so far on Neelix's recommendation and we have been ambushed by the Kazon each time."
She folded her hands on the meeting room table, "You think he is doing it on purpose?"
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. A quote back from where I grew up. We are currently at two times, Captain," I told her, "There is another one, there is no such thing as coincidence."
Janeway looked thoughtful, "You don't trust him?"
"No. Why is he here? Self interest clearly. He has his own little ship, he has his Kes. He is clearly not bound to this area of space, he could leave for friendlier space anytime he wishes," I said, "He is not bound to this territory. He is not bound to us or this ship. Nor does Voyager give him protection as we attract Kazon attention."
The Captain frowned slightly, "You think he's working with the Kazon?"
"No, I think he's a selfish idiot," I snorted, "And that he doesn't know this area of space anywhere near as good as he put on. What I do think is that nothing he says can be trusted, not necessarily out of malice, but because he's giving us what he thinks we want. I also think that the moment it will be advantageous, he'll sell us out."
Janeway shook her head, "Chakotay has shared similar thoughts. As has Mister Tuvok"
At least somebody has some sense.
"We'll keep an eye on things," Janeway said thoughtfully, "No more than a third of the crew at shore leave at a time. Set the computer to monitor Neelix's movements."
I snorted in amusement. Like I had not had the computer do that since the start. With no result either, so maybe I was unfair.
But better safe than sorry.
"Done, Captain," I agreed with a nod, "I will also expand it to Kes, just in case. I'll discuss it with Lieutenant Navari."
Janeway frowned but nodded, "Very well. Dismissed."
I nodded and then disconnected from Huginn, ordering the drone to return to engineering. Stretching a bit, I pushed myself up to sit on the upper level of engineering, turning my head to look at the warp core.
It hummed away calmly.
Neelix… traitor or not? I had no evidence for that. No direct evidence anyway… and I admittedly was biased against him because of the fact that I couldn't be in the same room without gagging.
I guess we'll see what happens this time.
"Dinah to Zephyr."
"Zephyr here."
"Hey, do you have anything planned tonight?" she asked and I tilted my head before answering,
"Not particularly. Why do you ask?"
"Because I'm hosting board game night in my cabin. You're coming, right?"
I hesitated, "...How many are invited?"
"Not many, even without counting you, I don't live in a ballroom. The ones I have confirmed are Harry, Tom and Jennifer."
"Who?"
Dinah sighed, "Harry Kim, Tom Paris and Jennifer Harrison."
I slowly blinked and then let it go. I'd likely recognize her when I see her, "Fine," I said, "When?"
"Awesome. Be there at seven, don't bother bringing anything. I'll arrange all the snacks. Navari out!"
The channel closed and I studied the warp core.
Oh well. The Convict could likely not be trusted, but at least he didn't smell any worse than any other human and he was entertaining enough. Nothing against Harry Kim and I had no clue who Jennifer Harrison was.
I suppose I'll find out.