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The Secrets' Crusade

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Snowfire said:
Write-ins are encouraged here, and you may specifically define what you would like to ask of the Uninvolved/Tahkel if you wish. You may also attempt to offer things in exchange, though in the eyes of Tahkel, humanity has a significant balance of debt to claim back. It comes down to what you think Amanda would do, and in that, there are many possibilities. Questions are, of course, welcome. I'm splitting up the votes on a basic Much/Some/Little level because it lets you choose the scale of request, and sidesteps me having to get into what the Uninvolved are capable of in a massive infodump this update. Amanda does have the gestalt that Tahkel gave her as a baseline for her requests, though, so if you have questions, I can give you answers.
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What is the difference between Practice and the Uninvolved?
Do they know anything of the Dragons?
What do they know anything of the Secrets, particularly the 4th, and 7th-onwards?
 
Could they throw up false readings?
Just... use their power somewhere in the galaxy, then leave before the Shiplords show up to investigate things. Give the shiplords too many targets to fully track and spread them even further.
 
Snowfire said:
"We have watched your race for little more than ten of your years, and until now, others would have prevented us. Even observation was seen by some of them as too much. But now, with what you've done, there can be no denying it."
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Snowfire said:
"And because your predecessors left behind what you would need to do this. To pierce the protections of the Shiplords, you would need a ship invested with power in a way only the Shiplords can. Or at least, it used to be just them. Your predecessors, the Elder First; they saw the barriers but did not understand them. And without understanding, they could only leave behind the means to break them."
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Okay... How? How do they know about the Elder First and their intention if they only started watching 10 years ago? Did Amanda talk about them when she sent the gesalt?

As far as I remember, Amanda and co. had to decipher their predecessors' intention, so how would the Uninvolved even know if they didn't observe the Elder First?
 
Darkfire said:
Okay... How? How do they know about the Elder First and their intention if they only started watching 10 years ago? Did Amanda talk about them when she sent the gesalt?

As far as I remember, Amanda and co. had to decipher their predecessors' intention, so how would the Uninvolved even know if they didn't observe the Elder First?
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Just because the Uninvolved started observing humanity ten years ago doesn't mean that they've not seen anything more than what has happened in the last decade. Amanda isn't entirely clear on how they knew what you've quoted, but the implication is that constructing a vessel from Inviolate Matter as they did carries with it a specific purpose. This could, of course, simply be assumption on the part of Tahkel, but it doesn't feel like it.

It may also be a result of traces of the actions taken by the Elder First in seeking understanding of things you still haven't touched, using Vision as a vehicle for it. The Uninvolved may well be capable of detecting those.

More answers shortly, I forgot my laptop charger on a trip and need to go and grab one before the shops close.
 
The vote that is basically, only accept what they are willing to give is the one for me.
 
[ ] Demand nothing, Ask for only what they are willing to offer, Offer to record who they were.

I have to agree with Pyro's vote here. From what I can understand of Amanda, this is absolutely something her Focus and personality would find good. Yes there would be difficulty trusting, but given this is the soul? Like Snowfire said, talking soul to soul is not somewhere one can lie without it being caught ridiculously easily.
 
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Snowfire said:
"Your race," the many voices continued, still speaking as one, "represents now the greatest chance that this galaxy has ever seen to change, and that is not simply due to what you have done. There have been alliances before, races brought together in defiance. Each and all fell in the end, yet you possess something that they did not."

"Practice?" It was hardly a question, what else could it have been? And yet, Tahkel's nod was not as deep as you'd expected.

"Not just that," they said. "No race before yours has possessed Practice, not in all the memories of the Uninvolved." Something about that statement felt odd, and a moment later you understood why, the knowledge fluttering into your mind. The Uninvolved as they were now did not include all those races that had chosen to bid the physical world goodbye. The oldest of their society was little more than a million years old, and they did not remember the beginnings of the Shiplords' tyranny. Only a different sort.
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Ohh... kay.

That definitely invites the question of what things were like before the Uninvolved.

That was too much to leave without a question, you had to know. "They see you," you asked. "No matter where you act?"

"There is a web they have built across the stars," Tahkel explained, and there was pain on their face as they did so. "If we act in your reality, it is disrupted. For so long they have known when we act, the weapons you now know they created ever threatening."
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This confirms and supports some of the speculations others have made. The "anti-Practice" weaponry we encountered at Third Sol is in fact anti-Uninvolved weaponry.

On the other hand, their sensors for detecting Uninvolved activity clearly didn't detect Practice, or they would have been stomping on us from very shortly after First Contact, as soon as the Elder First went active.

"You must understand: if we die, everything that we are dies with us. All we remember, all that our race was. Gone. To many of our kind, protecting that which lies beyond easy reach of the Shiplords takes higher precedence. We recognise this as hypocrisy," they added steadily, "and we have fought it. We would not be here otherwise, and please know that your existence has stirred many lost in despair to contemplate hope again."
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[hug giant intangible energy being, somehow, impossibly]

"We are, at least, we think so." They said, and your eyes narrowed in suspicion. "There are places across this galaxy, that we cannot see. Places that used to be open to us, that some of the eldest of our kind remember. Others were remembered by those who were eldest when our own set aside the real, and that knowledge was passed down."

"Wait," you shook your head, confused. "Your eldest's eldest? What does that mean?" It sounded self-explanatory, but the phrasing was specific. What would it matter?

"Those who were old when the oldest among us now were young," Tahkel replied, and something flickered in those brilliant eyes. "Our lifespans are not infinite. We begin anew, grow, change, age, and then fade. If it was not the case, then we would know why the Shiplords did what they did."
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Ohh-kay. So being Uninvolved does not confer true immortality, only extreme longevity. That may or may not extend to material beings whose immortality comes from being made out of atoms, since it's not clear why the Uninvolved eventually age and die after (apparently) hundreds of thousands of years.

"And if I were to ask my last question again," you asked, your voice hardening. "If I were to ignore the logistics of this, how far we would have to travel, and everything else. How would you give us reason to trust you."

"Because you know us now," the being replied, words you had expected. What came next, you had not. "And because your predecessors left behind what you would need to do this. To pierce the protections of the Shiplords, you would need a ship invested with power in a way only the Shiplords can. Or at least, it used to be just them. Your predecessors, the Elder First; they saw the barriers but did not understand them. And without understanding, they could only leave behind the means to break them."
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The Inviolate Matter ship?

Hm. Does that mean the Shiplords themselves have some other means of creating Inviolate Matter?

Enerael said:
[] Ask nothing

Pretty sure that I will vote for this. We want Shiplords to, at least, stop. They offer a way to do this without massive bloodshed. We are certain that they are not lying.

We would do this even if they gave us nothing, so why would we ask for anything?
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Because we could really, really use the help?

paradoxdragon said:
I do not believe it's fair to ask for more then what they are offering ??
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The main things I would ask are either answers to questions, or help in ways that do not endanger them.

...

I may be structuring this wrong, but:

[k] Bargain with the Uninvolved
-[k] Offer to the Uninvolved
--[k] Assistance with storing their memories
--[k] Ask if there are other ways in which we can be of assistance to them.
-[k] Ask, do not demand, of the Uninvolved
--[k] Some. We very much need the help, but don't want them to endanger themselves with the following ideas:
--[k] Ask if they can act sporadically in irrelevant locations to distract the Shiplords, then safely escape before the Shiplords arrive.
--[k] Ask if they can provide Practice-like support for other members of the Coalition, operating from under Orrery defenses.
--[k] Ask if they can assist us with scaling up our FTL travel operations. We're short on high-end FTL drives.
-[k] Ask of Tahkel
--[k] Much information. As Tahkel points out, information is the key to our standing a chance in this conflict, where others did not. Unless it would impose some unreasonable cost to answer...
--[k] What does Tahkel know or surmise of how Practice works, and how it came to be?
--[k] We created this Void Crystal. Does Tahkel have any idea or speculation as to what it does, or for that matter what it is?
--[k] What does Tahkel know or surmise of the Secrets? We know they can't be taught, and must be learned, but...
---[k] Can Tahkel tell us what the Fourth Secret is about, in the sense that the Third is 'electromagnetism' and the Fifth is 'gravity control?'
---[k] Can Tahkel tell us whether there are Seventh and higher Secrets?
---[k] Are there any Secrets the Shiplords themselves definitely do not possess?
---[k] We have inferred that the Shiplords forbid the First Secret to limit access to interstellar travel, and the Second to prevent the creation of new life that might be able to defeat them. Can Tahkel confirm or corroborate these inferences? What does Tahkel believe the explanation is?
--[k] Ask about the Shiplords and their (small-s) secrets.
---[k] When we tried to have Insight-focused Practice scry directly on the Shiplords, we had this 'Nightfall' thing happen. Our Practice users got hit with some really harsh backlash. In retrospect, knowing what we know now, that sounds like Project Insight triggered anti-Uninvolved defenses. Does Tahkel know if the Shiplords deploy such defenses to prevent observation?
---[k] Why do the Shiplords seem to have a great preoccupation with sacrifice? What is the relationship between sacrifice, their own technology and small-p practices, Practice, and the Uninvolved? Do any of these things relate to the Secrets?
---[k] In general, do the Uninvolved have information about the Shiplords' presence in the material universe, and if so, can Tahkel share it?
 
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Initial thoughts.
So, the way the SL act actively creates Uninvolved (or extinct races). And they set up a detection net and created weapons to stop Uninvolved from interfering.
The Uninvolved themselves are not immortal, nothing was said about a great purpose/fight/whatever that's going on.
...
I'm confused. Why do the SL go to all this trouble???
//
A repository of galactic history (ie, Uninvolved memories) sounds like something Amanda would think about. And with their memories kept also somewhere else, the Uninvolved might be more likely to act.
I think, if the Uninvolved have at least galaxy-wide reach, what they could do is spy and trip the detection network on purpose. So it's not one incidence every few years, but a few hundred per day. Just trigger the net and skedaddle. I bet the SL don't have infinite numbers of anti-Uninvolved weaponry. And if the units that do have them could be identified, we could us that for planning, too.
 
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The problem here is that at some point the SL would designate them as an enemy and then just kill them regardless. It is not at all a given that they are safe where they are, if the SL truly wanted to find them.
 
So, before anything else, I'd like to draw people's attention to the contents of this post:

Pyro Hawk said:
And she wouldn't be saying that yes, she'd get humanity to do this... But if she told humanity that there were others who wished to help but could not because if they fell then everything they were would be lost? I feel like this humanity would definitely agree to do what they can to resolve that issue, for isn't that fear a wound on the other's soul?

And one put there by the Shiplords at that, which means it links to humanities desire to help others heal themselves of their wounds and also remove the wounds that the existence of the Shiplords in their current form causes to everything in the galaxy...
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This is an extremely good read of where Amanda and humanity stand on these matters. All I'm saying.

Faraway-R said:
So is "[] Amanda's choice" a valid cop-out write-in? :)
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That's a negative, ghost rider.

Torgamous said:
Can they do generally practice-y things for the other members of the coalition? Heal infiltrators, improve their weapons, all that good stuff?

Can they tell us what that crystal is supposed to do?
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Better than you can, but not without being instantly detected by the Shiplords, which leads into the issue of a major societal faction of the Uninvolved not being willing to let what is at least mostly safe be destroyed. As for the void crystal, it's quite possible that they could, yes.

MonkeyTypewriter said:
Could they throw up false readings?
Just... use their power somewhere in the galaxy, then leave before the Shiplords show up to investigate things. Give the shiplords too many targets to fully track and spread them even further.
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They probably could, yes. It would put them at some risk, but if they just disturb the web and then scarper, it's certainly nowhere near as dangerous for them.

MTB said:
I'm confused. Why do the SL go to all this trouble???
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This is an excellent question. I think the Uninvolved are trying to give you a means to find out the answer.

@Shard I will have answers for you up later this evening, I'm conversing with my tech support group to make sure I've gotten a few things lined up properly.
 
So - the biggest question in Amanda's headsoul after these revelations would be 'how can we help them' or, phrased through the lense of her focus 'can we help to mend these wounds made by the Shiplords?'
 
MTB said:
So - the biggest question in Amanda's headsoul after these revelations would be 'how can we help them' or, phrased through the lense of her focus 'can we help to mend these wounds made by the Shiplords?'
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Oh, not the biggest question. One of the bigger ones, but it's balanced with "What are you even offering?" and a few other points of note.
 
Darkfire said:
Okay... How? How do they know about the Elder First and their intention if they only started watching 10 years ago? Did Amanda talk about them when she sent the gesalt?

As far as I remember, Amanda and co. had to decipher their predecessors' intention, so how would the Uninvolved even know if they didn't observe the Elder First?
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I wouldn't be even the slightest bit surprised if the Uninvolved can do 'Insight but better'.
 
These Shiplord sensors that detect the Uninvolved, or rather that detect the Uninvolved interacting with the Physical/Material from the Void... I think they're bound in some way to Stars, perhaps in a similar manner to the Secrets - perhaps they make use of them; perhaps they don't. I don't know.

'To linger in the spaces between stars is unwise' provides some evidence for this theory, because if they could detect interactions there, they wouldn't bother with that order. Or the order may have some other meaning.

The other, 'Look deeper in the Void at your peril', is a combination of the Uninvolved and the defenses they have placed there. The latter of which we have ran into with Project Insight, as the Void that Project Insight projects through and the Void of the Uninvolved are very similar. Indeed, some of the 'greater beings' that the projections of Insight avoided may have been Uninvolved.

Unless there are monsters lurking in the deeps.
 
Simon_Jester said:
The Inviolate Matter ship?

Hm. Does that mean the Shiplords themselves have some other means of creating Inviolate Matter?
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  1. The Adamant, yes.
  2. Inviolate Matter, or something similar to it. Either could suffice from what Amanda could glean from the Gestalt.
MTB said:
Actually, 'what can you do' is one I couldn't definitely answer as a player.
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I'll be covering this in some detail in my reply to Shard's questions. But if you recall, Practice is not the whole of what the Dragons tried to give you. It may be assumed that the Uninvolved possess the genuine article.

Something I've said to my tech support people is that there are aspects to this conversation where humanity is so out of its depth that it hurts. You may take from that statement what you wish. The Uninvolved appear to be limited in some ways too, in that they need to disrupt reality to act in it. But in terms of pure power? See above.
 
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...So here's my thoughts:
Being able to snag uninvolved memories strikes me as actually potentially HUGE, and yet potentially worse then pointless.
Worse then pointless because it'd take alot of resources that the Shiplords may very well demand of us, and creates a shiny the Shiplords can happily smash in front of our faces and say 'this sacrifice is sufficent' to try and impose that 'sacrifice is the point' message they seem to like so much...
...Bouncing back to the idea that Shiplords in particular don't like certain things, like the Second Secret for REASONS...I previously speculated that they don't like the Second for basically allowing perverted ascensions that cause everyone headaches in the long run, but I found it interesting the notion that the 'Special' weapons the Shiplords used on us were NOT Anti-Practice, but Anti-Uninvolved. Which is...Something we may have suspected? But...
That Practice is a power that the Uninvolved don't recognize, that the Shiplords SEEM to recognize but perhaps not quite? That Humanity has the 'soul might' to reach to Uninvolved Space? That the uninvolved are long-lived but not immortal, and the same may apply to the Second Secret?...
I don't know how precisely those facets tie together but it seems like one more reach like my prior theory on the Shiplords would do it...Perhaps I'll make the leap and land somewhere I can map out instead of just finding myself in the dark again.

This also concerns me in that it sounds more like Humanity DOES have some sort of super-secret cheat-code to the Universe they found, rather then Practice and the Humanity we have now is difficult to form as we have forged it...
*SNOWFIRE INTERRUPT*
Okay the Dragons tried to hand us something MORE than PRACTICE!?! The Uninvolved possibly having the whole of it? HUNH.
That...Does not help much but that there's more to the Practice package is interesting to know about...
 
justinkal said:
I wouldn't be even the slightest bit surprised if the Uninvolved can do 'Insight but better'.
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Hmmm... Could we ask them to team up with Project Insight? Can they interact with a Thoughtcast? That would be a fascinating way of establishing ongoing contact and support.

This user was bapped for this post.
 
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...OKAY.
So here's a thing: Soul Weight/Power/Might, Whatever it is.
We know it's a thing, because the Uninvolved have been sitting on their butts for who knows how long waiting for someone they could talk to right?
We ALSO know the Shiplords are really really REALLY good at intrigue, one could say it's their TRUE specialty beyond their terrible Martial Might.
Shiplords ALSO highly venerate the 'sacrifice' of a soul, that massive unleashing of power at the core of one's being.
We know Amanda managed to put Lina back together after she exploded?/Kept her from dying?/helped fuel the rage so it didn't burn her out? POINT IS, that right there? I'm betting that is a step the Shiplords don't realize is possible.
We know the Uninvolved and the Shiplords are at odds. Some in this thread have been speculating that the Uninvolved are in fact the things in the dark that the Shiplords warn against. I suspect that the shiplords can't set up their 'net' too far from the light of a star, and thusly must rely on their personal infiltration to 'see' those spaces, as well as providing a REASON to develop that insane level of Intrigue power- they need to make sure the Other Power doesn't get what they need to claw their way back into the Materium, so to speak, because a hold on the Materium is probably how the 223 didn't fry when hit with the Anti-Uninvolved Weapons- it disrupted their Practice momentarily but because they had a Physical Materium stronghold to fall back to-a.k.a their body, it was JUST a Disruption. But if one was WHOLLY Practice Power, so to speak, then the Anti-Uninvolved Weapon would destroy them entirely- ALL the Uninvolved are is Practiced Power and to disrupt that would scatter them into free-floating energy!
This ALSO reinforces that Second Secret ban the Shiplords insist upon! Nevermind the idea of a race sacrificing themselves to grant Practice to another, they don't like the Second Secret because it could create 'Meatsacks' by which the Uninvolved could attach themselves to and resist the Anti-Uninvolved Weaponry, and then counter-attack with more Practice telling Reality that Space the Shiplords are in right now is now purple goo and they need to hurry up and find some actual real estate to exist in!

IN SHORT:
The Shiplords are still at war against the Uninvolved, they're just at a point where their job is more suppression then one last 'tally-ho!' to crush their hated foe once and for all. Hence the Tributes (to ensure they've got the power they will need.) The Secret bans (No first lest it take a Race somewhere the Shiplords can't silence the Uninvolved, and no second lest the Uninvolved get another chance to arrive in the Materium and ruin the Shiplord's day again.) The Shiplords DO like that 'Sacrifice' power because it expends the Practice Power of the individual without letting it do weird things like give a race Practice that lets them cheat like Humanity has! And this also explains the point where Shiplords will be willing to leave a race alone- the point they're convinced all Practice Power is good for IS that Sacrifice ability, and thusly ONLY think it can be used for that, and won't let it build to the point Humanity is at or further, where the Uninvolved can play!

But that said...The Shiplords are under Oath during those Practiced Communications. And I suspect a low-key 40K thing happened here-reaching out to the Uninvolved is risky because some of them are jerks, and they'll just use you, show you fancy Practice Power tricks only to either use it to Possess you and yours or forge new bodies for themselves, only not ALL Uninvolved are like that, but when the nice ones are forced to sit in time-out with the jerks, and the Shiplords blindly enforce their painful restrictions, it might make more Uninvolved that instead of being nice, turn into jerks because the Shiplords NEED TO BE STOPPED, or because VENGANCE! And thus a terrible cycle of hatred is born, where the Shiplords in their Hate of the Uninvolved create more Uninvolved that Hate Shiplords justifying the Hate the Shiplords have towards the Uninvolved.
 
Zaealix said:
We know it's a thing, because the Uninvolved have been sitting on their butts for who knows how long waiting for someone they could talk to right?
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They could talk to other races, but that would involve breaking reality and/or triggering the SL net.
Zaealix said:
IN SHORT:
The Shiplords are still at war against the Uninvolved, they're just at a point where their job is more suppression then one last 'tally-ho!' to crush their hated foe once and for all. Hence the Tributes (to ensure they've got the power they will need.) The Secret bans (No first lest it take a Race somewhere the Shiplords can't silence the Uninvolved, and no second lest the Uninvolved get another chance to arrive in the Materium and ruin the Shiplord's day again.) The Shiplords DO like that 'Sacrifice' power because it expends the Practice Power of the individual without letting it do weird things like give a race Practice that lets them cheat like Humanity has! And this also explains the point where Shiplords will be willing to leave a race alone- the point they're convinced all Practice Power is good for IS that Sacrifice ability, and thusly ONLY think it can be used for that, and won't let it build to the point Humanity is at or further, where the Uninvolved can play!
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If they are at war, why do they create more Uninvolved? If the SL wanted, instead of a Tribute fleet they could sent a star detonator.
 
MTB said:
They could talk to other races, but that would involve breaking reality and/or triggering the SL net.
If they are at war, why do they create more Uninvolved? If the SL wanted, instead of a Tribute fleet they could sent a star detonator.
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Okay War might have been the wrong scenario.
But the Shiplords DO seem to want Control. Shoving races into Uninvolvement is fine, but letting the Uninvolved pop back in for a quick burger is a no-no. Especially given the amount of Uninvolved that probably hate the Shiplord's guts after the pain inflicted on them via Tribute Fleet.
 
Zaealix said:
Okay War might have been the wrong scenario.
But the Shiplords DO seem to want Control. Shoving races into Uninvolvement is fine, but letting the Uninvolved pop back in for a quick burger is a no-no. Especially given the amount of Uninvolved that probably hate the Shiplord's guts after the pain inflicted on them via Tribute Fleet.
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That matches. Still leaves the mindboggling 'why would you nurture your enemies such that you have to deploy a galaxy-wide detection net and develop specific weapons to keep them at bay - if you could have killed them easily anytime before?'.
 
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