Giving us a bit of a briefing on Shiplord culture would have made taking the "Remember" path earlier a bit easier, which could have gotten some of these lingering questions answered before they could fester as they have. In particular it would have been really helpful to see if there were other factions out there other than the isolated, out of touch, ivory tower Hearthguard and the xenocidal Authority. If we're going to find any type of active counter-cultural or anti-war political faction of the Shiplords it's going to be in the Remembrance lobby of a Sorrow.
The Secrets' Crusade
- Thread starter Snowfire
- Start date
- Original Sci-Fi
- Location
- LEO
Operative word active. If we can rouse those in hibernation we might be in business.
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
A minor note: Kicha was able to drop what had to be incredibly classified intel into your laps within a few weeks of the Fourth Battle of Sol. Whilst I accept that the Hearthguard are in many ways exactly what they've been described - fucked up beyond all belief in their own ways, essentially - it should be noted that that sort of access wouldn't come without similar avenues to exert influence.
- Location
- Somewhere out there
To be fair: That fruit is just about ripe, now. We've now seen A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back, and we took a detour halfway through Return of the Jedi to go watch The Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, and we're most of the way through Revenge of the Sith. We're just about ready to see the final transformation of Anakin Skywalker into Darth Vader, and once we're done with that we hope we're going to go pull off Vader's mask and get him to turn from the Dark Side.
And Lucas definitely did really want people to accept the prequel trilogy despite the complaints.
(Side note... why does my spell checker recognize "Darth Vader" but redlines "Skywalker"?)
Last edited:
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yes.
On the other hand, given that we are under these circumstances, where we know Anakin Skywalker as the murderous Darth Vader, and we know a lot of the facts surrounding how he became Darth Vader, and so on, and so on... Well, the audience may be skeptical that Luke has any real hope of redeeming Darth Vader, and Darth Vader's actions may seem, frankly, insane.
This is an understandable reaction for the audience to have.
It's important to point out to the audience that there are some more facts to be revealed, but it's also important to just... be aware... about how a reasonable audience is likely to react. And to note that people will have strong reactions to what they see in the plot, and may not be comfortable with being told "no, no, you need to totally suspend all judgment and disregard everything you've seen in the past five years," which sits ill with a lot of people who've been told not to judge those they see hurting themselves or others.
Just... let people pass judgment, and remember that nearly everyone is perfectly capable of changing or revoking their judgments in the light of new information.
An Open Forum
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
With your questions answered, you were left with the matter of what to do next. There was so much you wanted to know, but the limits on the system left behind by the Lament were quite clear. Perhaps there was another way to answer some of the questions that still remained. You'd spent very little time among the Shiplord population at the Sorrows, encounters with particular Wardens notwithstanding.
:You sure you want to do that?: Vega asked, as the light and energy around you broke apart.
:I think we have to,: you sent back. :We're still missing things. I don't expect the civilian population to be able to answer all of it, we'll need to visit the Archive for that. But it's worth trying - and maybe we can look for other answers whilst we're there.:
:Answers to what?: you felt the twisting contempt from Kalilah. Not directed at you, never that, but at the idea. Yet it was less than it would've been a year ago.
:No matter how we feel about the Shiplords,: Iris sent soothingly, :the question of how they feel about this place is still a valid one. We've seen the Hearthguard's opinions, and we've been willing to reveal ourselves in exchange. I'm not suggesting we walk into their galleries and pull off our Masques, but knowing how an 'average' Shiplord feels about even one of their Sorrows could help us a lot.:
:Iris is correct,: Vega agreed. A surge of the same emotion flooded out from Elil and Mir, entwining the words. :Kalilah, none of us are saying you have to like them. But how else are we going to find out how respected the Hearthguard really are? If what Kicha promised could be real?.:
:You don't believe them?: Kailah asked. You guessed her next question before her thoughts could begin building it. :Then wh-:
:I believe she believes it,: you replied precisely. :But we don't know if she's right. And I'd prefer not to leave that unknown, no matter how much access she appears to have.:
:And their civilian population could give us a viewpoint that we've not had before,: Kalilah continued, the words coming slowly, feeling out the logic despite how much she disliked it.
:Exactly so,: Vega nodded. :Project Insight never gave us a proper, internal view of their culture and the Sorrows as they happened are only one piece of the puzzle. If we're going to understand how much the Hearthguard actually could do for us, we need more data. How well respected are the Sorrows? What fraction of the population still cares about this place?:
:We're not asking you to talk to them, Kalilah,: Mir said, voice soothing. The far younger Peace-Focused usually didn't directly interact with Kalilah for fear of accidental conflicts. That he did here said a lot about how important he thought it must be. :Just that some of us need to.:
::I get it.: The words gusted across the link between you, their touch a hot wind against dry grass. It carried the utter clarity of how much Kalilah truly did not like this, the sparks of frustration that could easily catch into fury, if only she let them. But she didn't. :One question.:
The response was utterly wordless: a swirling blend of relief and acceptance, respect and expectation. Kalilah returned them with the feeling of a faint smile, cut sharp as a crescent moon.
:What do we tell Warden Yarin?:
:Simple enough,: you and Vega said, in the same instant. Laughter flitted at the edges of the link, the exactness of the timing just too perfect.
After a moment of shared consideration, Vega continued. :None of them know what's in here. With the acceleration we've been operating under, we've not been here long. We could walk back out and say we didn't find anything we could understand. Or just not say anything at all.:
:Something would be better than nothing,: Elil suggested, drawing your focus to the Insight Focused. :If we give nothing, it'll just make him wonder, and that curiosity will spread. If we give him something, it'll deflect anything further. At least at first:
Better to trust an Insight in his speciality than quibble. :Done, then.:
:I'll need Vega to make it work,: he started to say, only for the Harmonial to drag him into a secondary link, their signalling accelerating to full combat acceleration. That would handle that nicely.
:Anything else?: You asked the conference of minds. Nothing presented itself, except for Elil and Vega snapping back out of their conference link a breath before you finished. :Then let's go.:
You left the matter of the Warden to the ones who'd taken time to prepare for it, making your way out through the shrouded doorway a few steps behind them. It made it easy to avoid the conversation, focusing on the data cycling across the links between your team as the two Unisonbound exchanged words with Warden Yarin.
Much of it was hard to parse even for you, Mary having Iris run calculations through the shared processing power of your Unisons. Which raised an interesting question.
:What are you looking for?: You asked as the conversation with Yarin trended towards a close. :I know enough to tell that that isn't a coordinate parse,: you added, mentally highlighting the calculations. :So what are you trying to find?:
:Trying to confirm what I can with what I have,: Mary replied shortly. She didn't mean anything by it, you knew. This was simply how she was: always searching for answers and never willing to wait. Not the easiest person to share a life with, but you'd made it work.
:Which is?: You gave her a breath, then poked again. :I can ask Iris, you know.:
:The Secrets,: she said. If there was exasperation in her tone, it was at least affectionate. :You know they were considered too complex to be natural almost since first discovery. I don't have much more to work with than humanity did back then, but this place gave me somewhere to at least start.:
:How far do you think you can take that?: You asked, curiosity kindling with the implications. :Just knowing who made them doesn't give you that much, does it?:
:You'd be surprised,: she said, a fierce smile bleeding through the words. :We've tried to guess how the Shiplords knew of something like Practice ever since Project Insight told us they did. And then there's this.:
A file streamed across the link, unfolding into a composite recording that you knew very well. You were one of the sources, after all. The bridge of the Calypso, humanity's flagship during the Second Battle of Sol. Vega and yourself, each wreathed in the fullness of a Unisonbound's Aegis, fighting against Shiplord combat chassis.
An exchange of words, demands, and fiery condemnation that only now you realised you could start to make sense of.
"How dare you profane that gift and persist!" The voice of the first Shiplord you'd ever spoken to. You still wondered how Kicha would have reacted to that recording.
:Oh,: you breathed. :I see.:
:Yeah,: your friend agreed. :Not so complicated when we know enough, is it.:
It wasn't a large leap, not anymore. But it brought things into focus.
:You're trying…to simulate how the Secrets could have been made?: You asked, mind whirling as the formula and their responses snapped into place to form a picture far deeper than anything you'd imagined possible with so little time. Unless…. :Mary, how long have you been trying to do this?:
:About as long as we've known each other.: She sounded surprised - had she expected you to already know? :But I never had data to narrow it down. What the Lament left behind wasn't much, but it was one more datapoint. Not the crucial one, but it's another step down the path. And with that-:
Her words cut off as the next formula resolved, projecting phantom light on the walls around you as if inscribing them with truths of the universe. It wasn't entirely hyperbole. You weren't sure when you'd learned about these, but there was something, niggling in the back of your mind. Some odd certainty that what you were seeing meant something.
:Progress!: Mary hissed the word with a satisfaction deep enough to be vicious. :Not much. Only a beginning of what the Consolat must have done. The things I could do with more computing power…:
She'd have more for the Adamant's computing core when you got back there, you were sure. But you knew what you'd just seen. You knew the process of research from your time as co-lead for Arcadia, the way a problem felt when part of what made it one fell away. It wasn't always that simple, another problem could be lurking just beyond it. But it was, as Mary said, progress.
:Something for the Adamant's lagless core, maybe?: You suggested - putting words to the thought. :At least for further refinement.:
:Yes.: Mary agreed, the feeling of a nod. Then, quieter, almost beneath your mental hearing was something else. :Wonder when I taught Mandy about that…:
Odd for her to wonder, her memory was usually stellar. But these weren't exactly lab conditions, and there was a lot more to focus on. Including the successful bypass of your guide, who Vega had asked to take you to where the Shiplords would Remember their once-friends.
The trek up out of the depths of the Memory was not a long one, but it reinforced the feeling of the place upon you as you walked in silent contemplation of it. A creation forged by an Uninvolved, it resonated with an energy familiar to Practice, and yet so very different. It took you until you were back on the air transport back to the Sorrow's centre to realise why that was.
The Uninvolved born of the Lament had seen the creation of the Last Memory as their last act upon reality. Its presence was one of endings, lending it a weight and terrible finality utterly at odds with anything humanity had created with Practice. Your creations could be desperate, but that made them a surprise. The only place you'd been before that had felt like the Last Memory had been the archives left behind by the Elder First, and the two just didn't compare.
Maybe that was time, the endless march having thickened the presence of sorrow around the Lament's final creation. But maybe it was something else, too. The Elder First had been certain there'd be a humanity to inherit what they'd left behind. Had the Teel'sanha? You weren't sure.
The spaceport that formed the heart of this Sorrow came into view through the ancient towers and broader buildings of the Teel'sanaha's capitol, and your transport arced down towards one of the latter on the far side of it from the Memory. Electronic signs and idents flickered around you as you passed through them, and the translation software painstakingly created by the Ministry of Security took the glyphs and returned something you could understand.
Some pointed away, where you assumed one would go to Witness, but perhaps not. They led towards museums, great complexes of art and culture and history that…you checked again. Yes, the idents were very clear. Complexes created by the Teel'sanha, and maintained ever since by the Hearthguard. Would the exhibits still be same after all this time?
Thoughts for later.
Before you rose a broad, sloping structure that the glyphs translated to be a grand forum of some kind, and if nothing else the size made the term fit. At your best guess, you could have fit the Adamant inside of the structure a half-dozen times over. You could see steady streams of Shiplords moving freely in and out of tall, arching halls with no physical doors. There was a faint shimmer of energy around them instead, a protective field of some kind. And-
:I can feel that place,: Iris said softly, your daughter having come to your side as you landed. Her gaze was fixed on the building, and you could almost see the flickering motion of her pupils as they snapped from point to point of a vast information web. :The datasphere there is packed. So much being said, I think I'd struggle to catch it all.:
:Then we'll just have to focus on specifics,: you said, injecting the words somehow with the idea of ruffling your daughter's hair. She responded with the feeling of a look you knew rather well and that made you smile, Masque shifting in the motions of gentle laughter.
Then Warden Yarin was leading you forward, their steps calm and sure on the path, one they must have walked so many times that being able to do so with their eyes closed likely lost meaning. He beckoned you with a simple motion, yet there were shifts in his frame, as if still confused, contemplating. Unsure, in other words, and not sure how he felt about it.
Interesting.
:What did you tell him?: You asked the Insight and Harmonial of your small group, legitimately curious.
Elil surprised you with a rare chuckle. :Enough of the truth to make him believe. Anything else is up to him.:
:I suppose that's fair,: you sent, flickering curiosity fading as your guide led you towards the forum. You could ask later. You had other things to focus on, the building strength of Vega's presence between you all the greatest of those needing attention. The last time she'd felt like this had been close to another place of Shiplord remembrance, and it had almost killed her.
:It's alright,: she sent in immediate, preemptive reply. You wondered if she even knew that she was doing it, sometimes. :This isn't like the FIrst, that was a cyclone that wanted to draw me in.:
:What is this, then?:
:A seeking. With no right answer.:
The inside of the sprawling complex was an exertion of spartan beauty, stone and wood painstakingly protected by energy fields, and the first place you'd seen using staircases. It could have been a replication, a construct, but something in the presence of it all felt all too real. It wasn't that the other Sorrows hadn't been, but this place had been something else before the Hearthguard had chosen to make it part of their memorials.
Exhibits towered within alcoves cut through the broad spaces, historical stands in the languages of the Teel'sanha expressing their significance. Here, surrounded by the history of a race that they'd driven to suicide, thousands of Shiplords moved and spoke. Some pointed, discussed what they thought the stands might mean, wondered, curious. Others strolled between the stands, or stood back, trying to take in everything. And through it all, there was the sibilant presence of constant talk.
All of the other Sorrows had been so quiet.
Stepping through the doors brought you face to face with more Shiplords than you'd ever seen in your life, at any Sorrow, and all of them in one place. The airwaves thrummed with invisible radiation and simpler vibration, communication taking place across dozens of levels at scores of different speeds.
Before you could take in any more, Warden Yarin stepped to the side, one arm extending into the room in a courteous gesture shot through with twisting spirals of his own unfamiliar curiosity. How long had it been since he'd felt like this? A thousand years? Ten thousand? More?
"Welcome, to this remembrance," he said, his voice surprisingly soft. "It is our hope, my hope, that you might find some peace here. Whatever the Memory gave you, whatever you have witnessed, this is the other side of the coin. Here is a place to speak and listen to those among the living, about how the past of this Sorrow might shape our future."
"I hope you find what you're looking for here. And that you can use it, in whatever you believe comes next." Gravity rippled around the Shiplord's feet for a moment, Fifth Secret manipulation of truly breathtaking accuracy. Then he leapt casually to the second floor of the structure, and vanished into the swirling crowds.
:Well, that's ominous.: Kalilah noted a moment later, with all the elegance of a sledgehammer. Interestingly, she didn't immediately suggest killing the Warden as a potential security risk. Though thinking about it, there wouldn't be much point now. :Where should we go?:
:Mary will want to see the exhibits,: you noted, entirely abusing your accelerators to do so before she could say so herself. :I'm not having any of our non-Unisonbound going around alone in case we need to evac, so one of us needs to go with her.:
:Bodyguard duty again?: Kalilah asked in the tone of one much put-upon.
:You did say you wouldn't want to talk to anyone here.:
:There are some interesting patterns on the first floor,: Vega sent through the laughter that followed. One of the Harmonial's feet tapped impatiently on the stone, as if already trying to walk in that direction. :They feel young in a way that nothing else here does. I want to see what that means.:
:These are places that their youth are apparently brought to, or at least what passes for youth among their culture,: Elil added. It was hard to miss the surge of curiosity about and faint concern for what you might find there. But the man was too much his Focus to turn away from that. :We should see what they're like. If nothing else, it could be a factor for the future.:
:I'm more interested in that one,: Iris sent, her message carrying vector data pointing towards a small crowd of Shiplords on the ground floor. The flickering motion of nanoforms made it clear that the ongoing conversation was a passionate one even by the standards of this place, and no less for the one at the centre of the discussion.
:What's so interesting about them?: You asked, struggling to decipher the personal ident codes from the sea of others cluttering the forum's dataspace.
:I'm not completely sure,: Iris said, artfully calm, :but I think they're a former Tribute Fleet officer.:
:And they came back here?: You asked incredulously. It was difficult not to be distracted by the sudden, seething presence of Kalilah's focus on the individual, but you did your best.
:So it would appear.: You could feel the infectious chaos of your daughter's smile, but tempered in a way she'd never have managed before the Third Battle of Sol. Before she'd killed for the first time. :I'd like to see what he has to say. Maybe ask him a few pointed questions.:
She…wasn't wrong to suggest that. Any interaction would be a nest of truly vicious conversational land mines, but the potential perspective could be helpful too. You knew that the Shiplord held Tribute Fleet personnel in high regard, but the reasons had never been made clear. Actually talking to one of them, though…
Your stomach twisted as you remembered the moments that had preceded an instant of then-unprecedented power. Where humanity had unravelled the truth of what happened to the people the Shiplords took as tribute, in the screaming outrage of your own soul.
:That,: you sent, swallowing once, :could be a difficult conversation.:
:It's why I want to have it.: Any threads of amusement drained from your daughter's tone as she felt the undertones of sick horror beneath your words. But, credit where it's due, it didn't stop her. :I'm the youngest of anyone here. I understand what the Sorrows did, how the Tribute Fleets are terrible, awful things, but I never had to live that reality. It lets me ask questions that I don't think any of you could with coming a little too close to breaking cover.:
:What did we do right to make you so brave?: You asked.
The connection pulsed with warmth and gentle pleasure before Iris answered you. :Raised me.:
:I'd like to go with Mary too,: Lea, the other Mender of the team offered in the silence that followed. :Seeing the exhibits could be interesting, and it'll let us see how the Shiplords feel about them.:
And that was everyone. Everyone else, at least. :What about you?:
Where do you go?
[] Exhibitions - Go with Mary, Lea and Kalilah to see the exhibits and talk with those around them. Discover how the Shiplords feel about this Sorrow, at the very least, and those who it remembers.
[] Youthful Patterns - Normally talking with the youth of a race wouldn't be much help. But there are other factors here, and knowing how the youth feel about the Sorrows could help you understand how important they really are from a very different perspective.
[] Past Tribute - A former officer of the Tribute Fleets, there is a great deal you'd like to ask them but also much you cannot. Even so, Iris has a point, and going with her could catch things your daughter wouldn't. Probably best if you let your daughter ask the questions, though.
[] Write-in?
:You sure you want to do that?: Vega asked, as the light and energy around you broke apart.
:I think we have to,: you sent back. :We're still missing things. I don't expect the civilian population to be able to answer all of it, we'll need to visit the Archive for that. But it's worth trying - and maybe we can look for other answers whilst we're there.:
:Answers to what?: you felt the twisting contempt from Kalilah. Not directed at you, never that, but at the idea. Yet it was less than it would've been a year ago.
:No matter how we feel about the Shiplords,: Iris sent soothingly, :the question of how they feel about this place is still a valid one. We've seen the Hearthguard's opinions, and we've been willing to reveal ourselves in exchange. I'm not suggesting we walk into their galleries and pull off our Masques, but knowing how an 'average' Shiplord feels about even one of their Sorrows could help us a lot.:
:Iris is correct,: Vega agreed. A surge of the same emotion flooded out from Elil and Mir, entwining the words. :Kalilah, none of us are saying you have to like them. But how else are we going to find out how respected the Hearthguard really are? If what Kicha promised could be real?.:
:You don't believe them?: Kailah asked. You guessed her next question before her thoughts could begin building it. :Then wh-:
:I believe she believes it,: you replied precisely. :But we don't know if she's right. And I'd prefer not to leave that unknown, no matter how much access she appears to have.:
:And their civilian population could give us a viewpoint that we've not had before,: Kalilah continued, the words coming slowly, feeling out the logic despite how much she disliked it.
:Exactly so,: Vega nodded. :Project Insight never gave us a proper, internal view of their culture and the Sorrows as they happened are only one piece of the puzzle. If we're going to understand how much the Hearthguard actually could do for us, we need more data. How well respected are the Sorrows? What fraction of the population still cares about this place?:
:We're not asking you to talk to them, Kalilah,: Mir said, voice soothing. The far younger Peace-Focused usually didn't directly interact with Kalilah for fear of accidental conflicts. That he did here said a lot about how important he thought it must be. :Just that some of us need to.:
::I get it.: The words gusted across the link between you, their touch a hot wind against dry grass. It carried the utter clarity of how much Kalilah truly did not like this, the sparks of frustration that could easily catch into fury, if only she let them. But she didn't. :One question.:
The response was utterly wordless: a swirling blend of relief and acceptance, respect and expectation. Kalilah returned them with the feeling of a faint smile, cut sharp as a crescent moon.
:What do we tell Warden Yarin?:
:Simple enough,: you and Vega said, in the same instant. Laughter flitted at the edges of the link, the exactness of the timing just too perfect.
After a moment of shared consideration, Vega continued. :None of them know what's in here. With the acceleration we've been operating under, we've not been here long. We could walk back out and say we didn't find anything we could understand. Or just not say anything at all.:
:Something would be better than nothing,: Elil suggested, drawing your focus to the Insight Focused. :If we give nothing, it'll just make him wonder, and that curiosity will spread. If we give him something, it'll deflect anything further. At least at first:
Better to trust an Insight in his speciality than quibble. :Done, then.:
:I'll need Vega to make it work,: he started to say, only for the Harmonial to drag him into a secondary link, their signalling accelerating to full combat acceleration. That would handle that nicely.
:Anything else?: You asked the conference of minds. Nothing presented itself, except for Elil and Vega snapping back out of their conference link a breath before you finished. :Then let's go.:
You left the matter of the Warden to the ones who'd taken time to prepare for it, making your way out through the shrouded doorway a few steps behind them. It made it easy to avoid the conversation, focusing on the data cycling across the links between your team as the two Unisonbound exchanged words with Warden Yarin.
Much of it was hard to parse even for you, Mary having Iris run calculations through the shared processing power of your Unisons. Which raised an interesting question.
:What are you looking for?: You asked as the conversation with Yarin trended towards a close. :I know enough to tell that that isn't a coordinate parse,: you added, mentally highlighting the calculations. :So what are you trying to find?:
:Trying to confirm what I can with what I have,: Mary replied shortly. She didn't mean anything by it, you knew. This was simply how she was: always searching for answers and never willing to wait. Not the easiest person to share a life with, but you'd made it work.
:Which is?: You gave her a breath, then poked again. :I can ask Iris, you know.:
:The Secrets,: she said. If there was exasperation in her tone, it was at least affectionate. :You know they were considered too complex to be natural almost since first discovery. I don't have much more to work with than humanity did back then, but this place gave me somewhere to at least start.:
:How far do you think you can take that?: You asked, curiosity kindling with the implications. :Just knowing who made them doesn't give you that much, does it?:
:You'd be surprised,: she said, a fierce smile bleeding through the words. :We've tried to guess how the Shiplords knew of something like Practice ever since Project Insight told us they did. And then there's this.:
A file streamed across the link, unfolding into a composite recording that you knew very well. You were one of the sources, after all. The bridge of the Calypso, humanity's flagship during the Second Battle of Sol. Vega and yourself, each wreathed in the fullness of a Unisonbound's Aegis, fighting against Shiplord combat chassis.
An exchange of words, demands, and fiery condemnation that only now you realised you could start to make sense of.
"How dare you profane that gift and persist!" The voice of the first Shiplord you'd ever spoken to. You still wondered how Kicha would have reacted to that recording.
:Oh,: you breathed. :I see.:
:Yeah,: your friend agreed. :Not so complicated when we know enough, is it.:
It wasn't a large leap, not anymore. But it brought things into focus.
:You're trying…to simulate how the Secrets could have been made?: You asked, mind whirling as the formula and their responses snapped into place to form a picture far deeper than anything you'd imagined possible with so little time. Unless…. :Mary, how long have you been trying to do this?:
:About as long as we've known each other.: She sounded surprised - had she expected you to already know? :But I never had data to narrow it down. What the Lament left behind wasn't much, but it was one more datapoint. Not the crucial one, but it's another step down the path. And with that-:
Her words cut off as the next formula resolved, projecting phantom light on the walls around you as if inscribing them with truths of the universe. It wasn't entirely hyperbole. You weren't sure when you'd learned about these, but there was something, niggling in the back of your mind. Some odd certainty that what you were seeing meant something.
:Progress!: Mary hissed the word with a satisfaction deep enough to be vicious. :Not much. Only a beginning of what the Consolat must have done. The things I could do with more computing power…:
She'd have more for the Adamant's computing core when you got back there, you were sure. But you knew what you'd just seen. You knew the process of research from your time as co-lead for Arcadia, the way a problem felt when part of what made it one fell away. It wasn't always that simple, another problem could be lurking just beyond it. But it was, as Mary said, progress.
:Something for the Adamant's lagless core, maybe?: You suggested - putting words to the thought. :At least for further refinement.:
:Yes.: Mary agreed, the feeling of a nod. Then, quieter, almost beneath your mental hearing was something else. :Wonder when I taught Mandy about that…:
Odd for her to wonder, her memory was usually stellar. But these weren't exactly lab conditions, and there was a lot more to focus on. Including the successful bypass of your guide, who Vega had asked to take you to where the Shiplords would Remember their once-friends.
The trek up out of the depths of the Memory was not a long one, but it reinforced the feeling of the place upon you as you walked in silent contemplation of it. A creation forged by an Uninvolved, it resonated with an energy familiar to Practice, and yet so very different. It took you until you were back on the air transport back to the Sorrow's centre to realise why that was.
The Uninvolved born of the Lament had seen the creation of the Last Memory as their last act upon reality. Its presence was one of endings, lending it a weight and terrible finality utterly at odds with anything humanity had created with Practice. Your creations could be desperate, but that made them a surprise. The only place you'd been before that had felt like the Last Memory had been the archives left behind by the Elder First, and the two just didn't compare.
Maybe that was time, the endless march having thickened the presence of sorrow around the Lament's final creation. But maybe it was something else, too. The Elder First had been certain there'd be a humanity to inherit what they'd left behind. Had the Teel'sanha? You weren't sure.
The spaceport that formed the heart of this Sorrow came into view through the ancient towers and broader buildings of the Teel'sanaha's capitol, and your transport arced down towards one of the latter on the far side of it from the Memory. Electronic signs and idents flickered around you as you passed through them, and the translation software painstakingly created by the Ministry of Security took the glyphs and returned something you could understand.
Some pointed away, where you assumed one would go to Witness, but perhaps not. They led towards museums, great complexes of art and culture and history that…you checked again. Yes, the idents were very clear. Complexes created by the Teel'sanha, and maintained ever since by the Hearthguard. Would the exhibits still be same after all this time?
Thoughts for later.
Before you rose a broad, sloping structure that the glyphs translated to be a grand forum of some kind, and if nothing else the size made the term fit. At your best guess, you could have fit the Adamant inside of the structure a half-dozen times over. You could see steady streams of Shiplords moving freely in and out of tall, arching halls with no physical doors. There was a faint shimmer of energy around them instead, a protective field of some kind. And-
:I can feel that place,: Iris said softly, your daughter having come to your side as you landed. Her gaze was fixed on the building, and you could almost see the flickering motion of her pupils as they snapped from point to point of a vast information web. :The datasphere there is packed. So much being said, I think I'd struggle to catch it all.:
:Then we'll just have to focus on specifics,: you said, injecting the words somehow with the idea of ruffling your daughter's hair. She responded with the feeling of a look you knew rather well and that made you smile, Masque shifting in the motions of gentle laughter.
Then Warden Yarin was leading you forward, their steps calm and sure on the path, one they must have walked so many times that being able to do so with their eyes closed likely lost meaning. He beckoned you with a simple motion, yet there were shifts in his frame, as if still confused, contemplating. Unsure, in other words, and not sure how he felt about it.
Interesting.
:What did you tell him?: You asked the Insight and Harmonial of your small group, legitimately curious.
Elil surprised you with a rare chuckle. :Enough of the truth to make him believe. Anything else is up to him.:
:I suppose that's fair,: you sent, flickering curiosity fading as your guide led you towards the forum. You could ask later. You had other things to focus on, the building strength of Vega's presence between you all the greatest of those needing attention. The last time she'd felt like this had been close to another place of Shiplord remembrance, and it had almost killed her.
:It's alright,: she sent in immediate, preemptive reply. You wondered if she even knew that she was doing it, sometimes. :This isn't like the FIrst, that was a cyclone that wanted to draw me in.:
:What is this, then?:
:A seeking. With no right answer.:
The inside of the sprawling complex was an exertion of spartan beauty, stone and wood painstakingly protected by energy fields, and the first place you'd seen using staircases. It could have been a replication, a construct, but something in the presence of it all felt all too real. It wasn't that the other Sorrows hadn't been, but this place had been something else before the Hearthguard had chosen to make it part of their memorials.
Exhibits towered within alcoves cut through the broad spaces, historical stands in the languages of the Teel'sanha expressing their significance. Here, surrounded by the history of a race that they'd driven to suicide, thousands of Shiplords moved and spoke. Some pointed, discussed what they thought the stands might mean, wondered, curious. Others strolled between the stands, or stood back, trying to take in everything. And through it all, there was the sibilant presence of constant talk.
All of the other Sorrows had been so quiet.
Stepping through the doors brought you face to face with more Shiplords than you'd ever seen in your life, at any Sorrow, and all of them in one place. The airwaves thrummed with invisible radiation and simpler vibration, communication taking place across dozens of levels at scores of different speeds.
Before you could take in any more, Warden Yarin stepped to the side, one arm extending into the room in a courteous gesture shot through with twisting spirals of his own unfamiliar curiosity. How long had it been since he'd felt like this? A thousand years? Ten thousand? More?
"Welcome, to this remembrance," he said, his voice surprisingly soft. "It is our hope, my hope, that you might find some peace here. Whatever the Memory gave you, whatever you have witnessed, this is the other side of the coin. Here is a place to speak and listen to those among the living, about how the past of this Sorrow might shape our future."
"I hope you find what you're looking for here. And that you can use it, in whatever you believe comes next." Gravity rippled around the Shiplord's feet for a moment, Fifth Secret manipulation of truly breathtaking accuracy. Then he leapt casually to the second floor of the structure, and vanished into the swirling crowds.
:Well, that's ominous.: Kalilah noted a moment later, with all the elegance of a sledgehammer. Interestingly, she didn't immediately suggest killing the Warden as a potential security risk. Though thinking about it, there wouldn't be much point now. :Where should we go?:
:Mary will want to see the exhibits,: you noted, entirely abusing your accelerators to do so before she could say so herself. :I'm not having any of our non-Unisonbound going around alone in case we need to evac, so one of us needs to go with her.:
:Bodyguard duty again?: Kalilah asked in the tone of one much put-upon.
:You did say you wouldn't want to talk to anyone here.:
:There are some interesting patterns on the first floor,: Vega sent through the laughter that followed. One of the Harmonial's feet tapped impatiently on the stone, as if already trying to walk in that direction. :They feel young in a way that nothing else here does. I want to see what that means.:
:These are places that their youth are apparently brought to, or at least what passes for youth among their culture,: Elil added. It was hard to miss the surge of curiosity about and faint concern for what you might find there. But the man was too much his Focus to turn away from that. :We should see what they're like. If nothing else, it could be a factor for the future.:
:I'm more interested in that one,: Iris sent, her message carrying vector data pointing towards a small crowd of Shiplords on the ground floor. The flickering motion of nanoforms made it clear that the ongoing conversation was a passionate one even by the standards of this place, and no less for the one at the centre of the discussion.
:What's so interesting about them?: You asked, struggling to decipher the personal ident codes from the sea of others cluttering the forum's dataspace.
:I'm not completely sure,: Iris said, artfully calm, :but I think they're a former Tribute Fleet officer.:
:And they came back here?: You asked incredulously. It was difficult not to be distracted by the sudden, seething presence of Kalilah's focus on the individual, but you did your best.
:So it would appear.: You could feel the infectious chaos of your daughter's smile, but tempered in a way she'd never have managed before the Third Battle of Sol. Before she'd killed for the first time. :I'd like to see what he has to say. Maybe ask him a few pointed questions.:
She…wasn't wrong to suggest that. Any interaction would be a nest of truly vicious conversational land mines, but the potential perspective could be helpful too. You knew that the Shiplord held Tribute Fleet personnel in high regard, but the reasons had never been made clear. Actually talking to one of them, though…
Your stomach twisted as you remembered the moments that had preceded an instant of then-unprecedented power. Where humanity had unravelled the truth of what happened to the people the Shiplords took as tribute, in the screaming outrage of your own soul.
:That,: you sent, swallowing once, :could be a difficult conversation.:
:It's why I want to have it.: Any threads of amusement drained from your daughter's tone as she felt the undertones of sick horror beneath your words. But, credit where it's due, it didn't stop her. :I'm the youngest of anyone here. I understand what the Sorrows did, how the Tribute Fleets are terrible, awful things, but I never had to live that reality. It lets me ask questions that I don't think any of you could with coming a little too close to breaking cover.:
:What did we do right to make you so brave?: You asked.
The connection pulsed with warmth and gentle pleasure before Iris answered you. :Raised me.:
:I'd like to go with Mary too,: Lea, the other Mender of the team offered in the silence that followed. :Seeing the exhibits could be interesting, and it'll let us see how the Shiplords feel about them.:
And that was everyone. Everyone else, at least. :What about you?:
Where do you go?
[] Exhibitions - Go with Mary, Lea and Kalilah to see the exhibits and talk with those around them. Discover how the Shiplords feel about this Sorrow, at the very least, and those who it remembers.
[] Youthful Patterns - Normally talking with the youth of a race wouldn't be much help. But there are other factors here, and knowing how the youth feel about the Sorrows could help you understand how important they really are from a very different perspective.
[] Past Tribute - A former officer of the Tribute Fleets, there is a great deal you'd like to ask them but also much you cannot. Even so, Iris has a point, and going with her could catch things your daughter wouldn't. Probably best if you let your daughter ask the questions, though.
[] Write-in?
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
Christmas was fun, but exhausting, then there was a move in work (still same company, different team) and then alongside that there was some passionate debate that got misconstrued a bit by myself.
Thanks to @Baughn for checking this over. I realised that I needed to give you the choice of who to talk to first, so I'm not actually able to give the interaction I wanted to here. That comes next. Oh, and if you want to suggest specific questions to ask, now would be a good time. I'll do my best on my own, but I miss things sometimes.
Hope you all enjoy <3
Thanks to @Baughn for checking this over. I realised that I needed to give you the choice of who to talk to first, so I'm not actually able to give the interaction I wanted to here. That comes next. Oh, and if you want to suggest specific questions to ask, now would be a good time. I'll do my best on my own, but I miss things sometimes.
Hope you all enjoy <3
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Misspelled a name there.
Extra colon there.
- Location
- San Ramon, CA
In light of the recent discussion, I'm looking forward to seeing examples of Shiplords as "people", instead of merely "the antagonists that we're trying to figure out how to avoid total war with".
[X] Youthful Patterns - Normally talking with the youth of a race wouldn't be much help. But there are other factors here, and knowing how the youth feel about the Sorrows could help you understand how important they really are from a very different perspective.
[X] Youthful Patterns - Normally talking with the youth of a race wouldn't be much help. But there are other factors here, and knowing how the youth feel about the Sorrows could help you understand how important they really are from a very different perspective.
A thought occurs: Amanda knows how to create Void Crystals to safely contact the Uninvolved. After we get back to the ship and fly away, I think we might want to try contacting the Teel'sanha Uninvolved directly (albeit possibly requiring we first ask a different one to play courier for us).
Unrelatedly, one of the simplest explanations for why the universe hasn't been vacuum collapsed already is if this galaxy is the only one affected by the creation of the Secrets and they don't even work past the edge (or perhaps past the light-cone of the creation event).
Final thought: it's not an ideal solution and it would be hard as fuck to do but what is made can be unmade if you have the right tools. And humanity working with Uninvolved probably DOES have the most of the tools needed to simply ... turn off the First Secret.
- Location
- LEO
Looking at the kids will tell us what we're up against. The exhibits are planned and the people are going to be giving rather limited opinions. The ex officer is not the kind of person we will be appealing to.
[X] Youthful Patterns - Normally talking with the youth of a race wouldn't be much help. But there are other factors here, and knowing how the youth feel about the Sorrows could help you understand how important they really are from a very different perspective.
Lets see how they indoctrinate their children.
[X] Youthful Patterns - Normally talking with the youth of a race wouldn't be much help. But there are other factors here, and knowing how the youth feel about the Sorrows could help you understand how important they really are from a very different perspective.
Lets see how they indoctrinate their children.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I think the Teel'sanha Uninvolved may be long dead. They have a finite lifespan, don't they?
You're quite right, though for example if we want to know what the hell the Tribute Fleets think they're doing by, for instance, exterminating pacifist species... This is how we'd learn.
Then again, it may be very hard for any survivor of First Contact to hear those answers given face to face and not snap and kill someone, even Amanda.
- Location
- LEO
We don't really care, do we? Or rather, we care only so far as it enables us to convince the greater majority of shiplords to cease fighting for the tribute system. It's something to put on the slate, but the mentality of the common shiplord is more important.
If the shiplord children are taught that "all xenos want to cause vaccum collapses all the time" then we need to know that. Its the difference between Japanese civilians being told Americans are bloodthirsty beasts out to rape and pillage vs the finer points of "Hakkō ichiu" ideology promoted by high ranking members of the empire. You can neutralize radicalized civilians by having soldiers hand out chocolates, you neutralize committed fascists with bullets.
I've been thinking about this war compared to WW2. The point of that war was to destroy the axis power's economy. Factories, transportation, dockyards, ect, to the point where resistance cannot be mustered. The problem is that the shiplords seem to be a post economy civilization. They don't have such targets, and attempts to wage war against "industrial targets" will escalate to campaigns of extermination.
We need to fight a new kind of war, one against the very structure of their society. Opinion leaders, prominent cultural fixtures, unchallenged assumptions need to be brought down or raised up. Right now we know nothing about what that landscape looks like.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yes, and that's relevant information for that purpose, so yes, I would like to know.
But for reasons already noted, it is probably for the best that Iris be the one to collect that information; she's by far the person best equipped to ask without trying to murder the only kind of person who could answer the question as a primary source.
Or hell, who knows? We may be looking at one of the very few repentant Tribute Fleet officers in the galaxy. Ex, after all. And I'm not sure there are that many retired Tribute Fleet personnel, because think about it. They send fleets of eight ships. They exterminate any race that fails to destroy at least one ship. Then they come back again and again, fully accepting that the victim may shoot at them again each time they revisit the system.
Culminating in an entire Tribute Fleet being slaughtered to the last, at which point the Shiplords as a whole show up to say "Congratulations, you've fought your way out of the Tribute System into the Shiplords Are Still Assholes System!"
Think about it. That sounds like a recipe for pretty high attrition among Tribute Fleet personnel. Assuming those fleets are crewed by volunteers who have had time to really think about their decision (which seems likely), I suspect that the great majority of them keep at that job until they're killed in battle by one of the species they victimize.
And by far the most likely reason for one of them to quit would be to have their long-belated "Hans, are we the baddies" moment.
None of what you say is wrong. On the other hand, the internal justification structure of the Tribute Fleets is part of that landscape, not least because it provides clues to what the hardliners are going to do and how they will move.
The overall structure of Shiplord society is the game board; the mega-genocidal faction behind the Tribute Fleets is the opposing player. Getting a more thorough psych profile on the other player is valuable, just as understanding the shape of the board is valuable.
...
[On which note, the Shiplords clearly do have industrial infrastructure targets, it's just that those targets are things like "planetary nanoforges," which cannot feasibly be destroyed without blowing up entire stars or throwing entire planetary masses of ships and firepower at them or doing something similarly horrific]
It's not something Humanity 2.0 would ever even threaten, nor the kind of story I think Snowfire wants to write but ... I wonder what the results would be of deliberately repeatedly kick the shiplords right in the trauma. By which I mean "Hey, see this stealth ship you already provably failed to detect? Well we used that stealth technology to seed several vacuum metastability bombs on deadman switches through the galaxy. The Tribute system ends now" and then if really going for maximum trauma "We call it the Lament of the Consoliat's Gift"
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- Location
- USA
[x] Youthful Patterns
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Exhibitions - Go with Mary, Lea and Kalilah to see the exhibits and talk with those around them. Discover how the Shiplords feel about this Sorrow, at the very least, and those who it remembers.
//
Talking with >>normal<< SL is what we haven't done yet, that's one part of the puzzle still missing.
@Snowfire - is there a way to find out how many SL visit the Sorrows? Half their population? 1%? Nearly no-one?
//
Talking with >>normal<< SL is what we haven't done yet, that's one part of the puzzle still missing.
@Snowfire - is there a way to find out how many SL visit the Sorrows? Half their population? 1%? Nearly no-one?
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
Well-
Yeah, this. Uninvolved don't appear to live forever. Eventually they stop interfacing and move on.
A minor correction but the Shiplord economy is all-but-entirely driven by stellar convertors. They could build a Kugelblitz if they had any reason to, but there just isn't anything with that level of required energy input.
To use an example: if you've ever played Gigastructural Engineering in Stellaris, the high end Gigas are what the Shiplords consider standard infrastructure projects.
At present 95-99% of the Shiplord population have visited the Sorrows at some point in their lives. Amanda does wonder how that figure has changed over time, and if it's been artificially increased from a lower percentage to try and shore up the Hearthguard's strength.
It's hard to tell, though. Different culture and you've got little in the way of historical records.
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Seeing as they are basically unaging and we're not wading neck deep in them, I imagine they must not reproduce far above replacement rate. And I'd guess the "deaths" part of that is also extraordinarily low. All of which goes to say that I'd guess the vast majority of shiplords are old as fuck with plenty of time to have done anything culturally significant.
Side note: I'd guess that the leading cause of death among the Shiplords is "new race managed to off a tribute fleet ship". Which if my other guesses are correct would mean that part of the reason Tribute Fleet members are respected might be that they are volunteering to get killed off and open up a slot for a new Shiplord child to be born.
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Yeah, an average growth rate of, at most, something like 1.000007/year, if they've been around for > 3M years. Otherwise Malthusian catastrophe, and all that.
Could also be that only those who participate in Tribute Fleet activities are allowed to have a child. That would, over a few dozen millennia, massively make the pro- Tribute Fleet camp dominant, population wise.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Also that sounds like the kind of thing where if someone forgets to carry the two, you end up accidentally duplicating the Gysian vacuum bomb.
I know, I know, Shiplords are probably sublimely confident they can do things like that without forgetting to carry the two. But still. I figure their own obsessive desire to murder anyone who even looks like they might consider contemplating the possibility of threatening to think about using the Secrets in a universe-exploding way ever probably does translate into some degree of... lively sense of caution about their own activities.
In terms of "Shiplords actually subtracted from the population," I imagine it's a race between "new race managed to off a Tribute ship" and "someone decided 'fuck this' and went into nigh-perpetual cryo-stasis."
Which is winning, I couldn't begin to guess.
That's horrifying, but fortunately I don't think it'd fly. If there's even a large minority of Shiplords who genuinely aren't comfortable with the extreme mega-genocide behavior of the faction that runs the Tribute Fleets, then it would be a massively destabilizing point in Shiplord society if all of those people were forbidden from having children. Such a law would have been very difficult to make stick over the long course of Shiplord history.
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
Missing from this is the third option of those who just choose to die instead of going into stasis - no cryo required.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
A Kugelblitz is just a particularly unusual way to form a black hole. A particularly tractable way, in the absence of the Fifth, but given we do have the Fifth... humanity is already capable of that, and might already be using them for combat; the description of gravitational weaponry is, uh, evocative.
The Kugelblitz itself, once formed, is just a black hole. If it's a small enough, it'll quickly evaporate -- in the form of a big boom -- but the boom won't be bigger than the energy that went into forming it, and above a certain point putting in more energy will reduce the boom. (By making it too stable.)
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic