The Secrets' Crusade

[MTB]

There is no variable yield on a Lumen, no. They're also one of the only ways that you're ever going to be able to kill Shiplord stellar convertors.

When the UPI report said that the best case scenario for a full scale war with the Shiplords was a third of the galaxy reduced to ash, it wasn't kidding.

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If you assume that the SL would go on like they did in the last million years, you can calculate when the death toll of a war with the SL is less than letting them go on like they do ... and answer a few ethical questions along the way while calculating.

 

[Snowfire]

If you assume that the SL would go on like they did in the last million years, you can calculate when the death toll of a war with the SL is less than letting them go on like they do ... and answer a few ethical questions along the way while calculating.

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Wasn't an argument of that. Was more saying that it's extremely unlikely for you to be able to beat the Shiplords in a conventional conflict without developing Lumens of your own.

 

[Lightwhispers]

With the key being controlled demolitions. I mean, as a reminder, when Amanda smashed through the Tribute Fleet Leader's assumptions and got past the reflexive genocidal rage (which, definitely is a yikes factor we are currently dealing with, that's a terrible combination of words) the Shiplords on the fleet committed suicide.

It is very, very, very likely that any successful assault on Shiplord social structures is going to kill a lot of Shiplords in an absolute sense of 'a lot'. There is a good chance that a measurable fraction of the population of the reining galactic superpower will literally evaporate. We are talking a lot of people by any objective accounting, and I want to emphasize that this is something you have to care about even if you aren't Amanda who at this point we can be quite sure cares very much. This is something we have to wrangle, even with the dark temptation to say good riddance and hope every Tribute Fleet instantly turns into a bunch of empty hulks, because those Shiplords would of course be people we somewhat got through to and we want as many of them to survive and help influence Shiplord society away from genocide as possible.

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This is something that I think a lot of people are missing. I don't think anyone here is arguing "we won't have to kill any Shiplords".
The goal of Amanda's mission is "keep from having to kill all the Shiplords, and burn at least a third of the galaxy to ash in the process".

I don't see a "we keep every Shiplord we can alive so they can slowly reform their way out of this" option. Seeing as how we're, you know, already at war with them, because of all the genocides they do.

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As I said, nobody is arguing for this.

No, they're clearly not. We've established that they're doing genocides for literally no good goddamn reason. Just out of a belief that they're the arbiters of who deserves to exist, with absolutely no connection to any kind of extinction threat to justify it.

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We have 100% not established that. They started this path for a good reason: prevent the destruction of the universe.
Currently, it looks like they got to where they currently are due to societal trauma, blind spots, and bad decisions... but we are still missing pieces of the puzzle.

Where are the people lining up to try and patch the secrets? Has shiplord society grown so nihilistic that the concept of patching the secrets would be viewed as a direct attack on their waifu?

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They don't have the tools to start working on trying, and they know it. They asked the Teel to try, and the Teel (who were far better-equipped to do so than the Shiplords) took a century to look at the problem and said "sorry, that's beyond us, too." The Shiplords don't know where to start looking at how to start on that.
Humanity might be able to try, and that's probably our best option at resolving the situation without a galaxy-shredding war... but we will probably need to first get them to stop trying to kill us. Which will probably need the people here in this thread to set down their bloodlust and put the lives of quadrillions of innocents over their desire to punish the guilty right now.

Edit: and, for the record, I find the Tribute system indescribably repugnant. Anyone who feels like that's not the case, is profoundly misreading what I am saying.

 

[Torgamous]

We have 100% not established that. They started this path for a good reason: prevent the destruction of the universe.
Currently, it looks like they got to where they currently are due to societal trauma, blind spots, and bad decisions... but we are still missing pieces of the puzzle.

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Why they started this path is immaterial. Where they're at now is that they're committing genocide for literally no good goddamn reason. Or, to quote:

Consider the core Shiplord belief that the Consolat gave their lives to create the Secrets. Somewhere along the way in their formalisation of the Tribute system, they started to see what they did in first contact as a twisted form of payment. Our friends died to give reality this, so now you have to prove that you're worthy of their gifts.

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Which, when we're taking about the utility of their actions for protecting the universe, rounds to "no good goddamn reason".

I'm not even saying that every genocide they do is completely 100% pointless. But the one we saw in that one interlude, where the Shiplords killed an entire species because their weapons couldn't hurt the Tribute fleet, has no basis in any kind of disaster prevention. It's just the Shiplords having gotten their heads wedged firmly up their asses.

 

[Simon_Jester]

There is no variable yield on a Lumen, no. They're also one of the only ways that you're ever going to be able to kill Shiplord stellar convertors.

When the UPI report said that the best case scenario for a full scale war with the Shiplords was a third of the galaxy reduced to ash, it wasn't kidding.

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Yeah, that's about what I figured.

The Shiplords have basically maxed out the Secrets-based tech tree (barring applications that they're too racially emotionally maimed to think of). And they know how their own weapons work. And they're paranoid enough to do this much insane giga-murder over hypotheticals.

They wouldn't settle for defenses that can be feasibly breached without even bothering to use their own heaviest weapons against them.

 

[Snowfire]

Yeah, that's about what I figured.

The Shiplords have basically maxed out the Secrets-based tech tree (barring applications that they're too racially emotionally maimed to think of). And they know how their own weapons work. And they're paranoid enough to do this much insane giga-murder over hypotheticals.

They wouldn't settle for defenses that can be feasibly breached without even bothering to use their own heaviest weapons against them.

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The Shiplords have also...not used a lot of the more insane things they can feasibly do with the Secrets. Stuff that stops short of reality murdering, but is still terrifying as hell.

As an example, I had a conversation in my tech channel yesterday about the feasibility of essentially shape-charging a nova at a nearby star system

 

[Lightwhispers]

Which, when we're taking about the utility of their actions for protecting the universe, rounds to "no good goddamn reason".

I'm not even saying that every genocide they do is completely 100% pointless. But the one we saw in that one interlude, where the Shiplords killed an entire species because their weapons couldn't hurt the Tribute fleet, has no basis in any kind of disaster prevention. It's just the Shiplords having gotten their heads wedged firmly up their asses.

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So long as you admit you're rounding, and accept that some people will dispute that said rounding is appropriate.

 

[Torgamous]

So long as you admit you're rounding, and accept that some people will dispute that said rounding is appropriate.

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Are you fucking serious?

 

[Coda]

Are you fucking serious?

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Yes. People are going to disagree about what level of force is necessary, what level of force is sufficient. People are going to disagree whether or not it's appropriate to make absolute statements. People are going to disagree on what kind and what magnitude of drawbacks are acceptable.

 

[Mossconfig]

we will probably need to first get them to stop trying to kill us. Which will probably need the people here in this thread to set down their bloodlust and put the lives of quadrillions of innocents over their desire to punish the guilty right now.

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Our offer to the shiplords is something like "we'll fix the universe, you guys are going to get punished for the pain and suffering you inflicted upon it's people for 2 million years. If the shiplords refuse to accept such terms, and decide that exterminating species for not being weaponized enough to destroy a tribute ship is good, they're beyond saving. Their only hope is that enough of the shiplord society isnt that fucked up.

Hopefully all our attacks can embolden that fraction of shiplord society. The Hjiven comparisons, the .2 species per million year assistance request rate, the refusal to request uninvolved help, ect. The thing is, if the shiplords desire a war to the knife in spite of everything we offer, everything we can do, then there is precious little we can do but offer them a war to the knife.

So long as you admit you're rounding, and accept that some people will dispute that said rounding is appropriate.

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The Practice War [Complete] Original - Sci-Fi

Elsewhen, Elsewhere The ships came on, battering at the remnants of the Fleet. The beautiful creations that your people had built and crewed with their best, cast down in little more than hours by the silent leviathans that had descended upon your system. They still fought, and bravely, but...

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

How would you tie the protection of the universe from universe enders to the fate of this species. Because I can see (without rounding) ZERO connection to that, and a 100% correlation to wallowing in ones own misery and others mass death. Remember, these guys are all volunteers and highly respected in shiplord society.

 

[Lightwhispers]

Are you fucking serious?

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Yes, yes I am. If you cannot accept that people will see situations differently than you, I really have to wonder why you are here in the first place.

Our offer to the shiplords is something like "we'll fix the universe, you guys are going to get punished for the pain and suffering you inflicted upon it's people for 2 million years. If the shiplords refuse to accept such terms, and decide that exterminating species for not being weaponized enough to destroy a tribute ship is good, they're beyond saving. Their only hope is that enough of the shiplord society isnt that fucked up.

Hopefully all our attacks can embolden that fraction of shiplord society. The Hjiven comparisons, the .2 species per million year assistance request rate, the refusal to request uninvolved help, ect. The thing is, if the shiplords desire a war to the knife in spite of everything we offer, everything we can do, then there is precious little we can do but offer them a war to the knife.

How would you tie the protection of the universe from universe enders to the fate of this species. Because I can see (without rounding) ZERO connection to that, and a 100% correlation to wallowing in ones own misery and others mass death. Remember, these guys are all volunteers and highly respected in shiplord society.

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Our offer to the Shiplords has not even been formulated, yet. But I suspect it will be much more along the lines of "you're going to stop trying to kill us for long enough for us to figure out if we can fix the universe, and then once your monstrous actions are no longer necessary, we will sort out what judgement can and should be passed."
You're being massively premature. (I suspect, among other things, there may be a lot of Shiplords who are in Storage who may have instructions about getting pulled out if certain conditions are met.)

And... you seem to have missed my postscript, or just ignored it. And conflating one aspect of a system (which we don't have full information on yet) with the whole thing, is... again, premature.

 

[MTB]

Remember, these guys are all volunteers and highly respected in shiplord society.

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Sure, they volunteered to bear the burden and are willing to do the dirty deeds to protect the universe. That SL mindset isn't something that logic helps to understand (well, it's shaped by their racial trauma and the hoops they are jumping through to rationalize what they are doing as necessary).

 

[Mossconfig]

I think our disagreement is coming from the way that the shiplord's came to this place of evil. You hold to the idea that the shiplords started from a point of wanting to stop universe enders and somehow tripped and fell their way into genocide. That might even be the way that the shiplords characterize it. I completely reject that.

The question of universe enders must remain an entirely separate issue to the shiplord preference for genocide. If the shiplords never existed we'd eventually get around to patching the secrets. We cannot allow the shiplords to conflate their emo edgyness with saving the universe.

Remember how the thread was thinking before we started to get answers? That there was a reason for all the death? Maybe preparing for a fight with a worse evil? All kinds of theories. Well, there is no reason for the genocide, it's just that they're sad.

And conflating one aspect of a system (which we don't have full information on yet) with the whole thing, is... again, premature.

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I don't think that we, as the non genociders of the galaxy should really care about why the shiplords backfliped off the moral event horizon. Or rather, that information is only useful as an attack.

"you're going to stop trying to kill us for long enough for us to figure out if we can fix the universe, and then once your monstrous actions are no longer necessary, we will sort out what judgement can and should be passed."

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I agree, I might be getting ahead of myself in strategizing around taking down the shiplords, but the attack I laid out is the only way I can see that has a possibility of sticking.

The difference between your ultimatum and mine is that you put off the punishment, right? I don't think that is an optimal move for a couple reasons.

1) Our allies wouldn't like it.
2) We're already at war.
3) They're recreating the hjiven's greatest hits, specifically the one that got an uninvolved to involve.
4) We're going to be patching the secrets anyways.

Engaging in total war to prevent universe enders is fine, good, and understandable. It's what they expect to fight. So we push them on that, and the ones who cling to and defend their war criminals by fighting a war to the knife are not the ones we can work with. Let's call them the "Sunk cost enjoyers".

Also, the more we have to fight the shiplords the less we work on the secrets problem, so any shiplord who is fighting us is directly working against progress fixing them. This can be a different motivation, the "xenophobes".

We cannot work with either of these groups. The group we can work with are those who don't like universe enders, but see no way out. Your plan, of offering to suspend punishment for the genociders among shiplord society is effectively working with the first group. Those guys are crazy, willing to accept the continued death of uncountable trillions. There is nothing to be gained by reaching out the hand of compromise to them.

Shiplords who are in Storage who may have instructions about getting pulled out if certain conditions are met.

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I'm counting on it. Something to research and plan our attack around. I'm thinking some subtle happenings, then we make a big announcement like "we can fix the secrets" that would be guaranteed to trigger a keyword search.

 

[TheEyes]

This point is kind of far afield from the context in which we were originally discussing it. The original topic was "treaty ban on weapons of cosmic destruction." Either star-destroying weapons would be banned by such a treaty, or they wouldn't. If they wouldn't, the question of what protocols would be in place to limit their use is kind of irrelevant even if it's an important subject to resolve separately. If they would, then even having a procedure for deciding to use the things (and research and build them, naturally) would entirely defeat the purpose of the treaty by raising the possibility that under the 'right' conditions we might choose to research, build, and use the other types of proscribed weapons.

If weapons like that should be banned, we're deciding to just never have them no matter what. If weapons like that should NOT be banned, because they're not in the category of a universe-breaking false vacuum device, then they don't belong in the "forbid these classes of superweapons" territory.

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It really isn't though, because any sort of "Universe-ender ban treaty" is going to require a lot of infrastructure to be viable and taken seriously:

• We'd need an inspections and investigatory regime, something like the IAEA but with enough power and authority to actually peer into the most advanced research labs of every species in the galaxy, figure out what they're working on and where it will lead, and then determine if said research will result in stumbling on a Universe-ender technology.
  • We'll then need a second inspections and investigatory regime to analyze the subject species and determine if they're the type of people with the disposition to use a universe-ender if they had one.
• These two agencies will have to submit to an independent review board to determine if there is a danger of a universe-ender being used, and then refer the case to an enforcement arm.
• Then of course there'll need to be an enforcement arm, but said enforcement arm will necessarily need to be kept separate and subservient to all the previous sections, to prevent exactly the problem we're having with the Authority getting all gun-happy and deciding that they don't need to bother with investigations or trials before moving straight to execution.

If this sounds like a lot of infrastructure, well yes it is, but really this is pretty much the smallest possible organization needed to both be effective and to have at least a decent shot at not descending into the same madness the Shiplords are in thrall of right now.

The thing is, once you have all this infrastructure in place to intercept and prevent the use of Universe enders, well it's also going to be quite fine infrastructure for dealing with lower class weapons of mass destruction as well:

• Class I WMDs: Vac-collapse bombs; Slaanesh Seeds, etc, things that can outright end the universe - construction and/or deployment universally banned, research universally banned, highest priority
• Class II WMDs: Homogenizing swarms, unchained AIs, Lotus Eater permanent illusions, time travel (should it exist), soul erasure weapons, other weapons that can affect multiple star systems and are resilient enough to be difficult to attenuate over long distances - deployment universally banned, construction and research heavily restricted
• Class III WMDs: Sun killers, nova shaped charges, anything capable of destroying an entire star system - deployment heavily restricted, construction heavily restricted and possibly limited to specified parties only, research restricted
• Class IV WMDs: Planet killers, other weapons that have an area of effect the size of a planet but smaller than a star system - deployment heavily restricted, construction monitored and catalogued
• Class V WMDs: Anything with an indiscriminate, large area of effect that cannot be precisely targetted, such as old nukes, chem/bioweapons, large sonic weapons, etc.

The point is that if you're going to all the trouble of building a massive, expensive hammer, there are a lot of nail-like problems that you can and should apply it to.

 

[MTB]

You've got another minor problem, I use an asspull example: Let's say a species is researching zero point energy modules (hello Stargate), which is a safe technology to be employed. Unfortunately, along the same line of research you find the false vacuum collapse.
Converting Mercury into a planet-sized nanoforge? Fine by itself. Adding a little sixth (8th, 2nd) secret AI enablement and a directive of 'go forth and multiply'? Grey goo scenario.
Research itself cannot be restricted because "it might lead to galaxy/universe enders" because legit applications of the same (or closely related) research would then be banned, too. We need to look for intent, and that may be something project insight (and its follow-ups) might help with.

 

[ilbgar123]

You've got another minor problem, I use an asspull example: Let's say a species is researching zero point energy modules (hello Stargate), which is a safe technology to be employed. Unfortunately, along the same line of research you find the false vacuum collapse.
Converting Mercury into a planet-sized nanoforge? Fine by itself. Adding a little sixth (8th, 2nd) secret AI enablement and a directive of 'go forth and multiply'? Grey goo scenario.
Research itself cannot be restricted because "it might lead to galaxy/universe enders" because legit applications of the same (or closely related) research would then be banned, too. We need to look for intent, and that may be something project insight (and its follow-ups) might help with.

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I mean, the Shiplords clearly have some kind of Secret-detecting net. Combine that with Insight, and we should be able to be really, really specific in finding 'who's going to blow up reality if we don't stop them?'

 

[MTB]

I mean, the Shiplords clearly have some kind of Secret-detecting net. Combine that with Insight, and we should be able to be really, really specific in finding 'who's going to blow up reality if we don't stop them?'

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That means we have to either co-opt the SLs net or get them onboard, set up an ethically more acceptable surveillance, reinstate the whole 'teaching the younger races', find a way to get successors when the current G7 go Uninvolved and install some failsaves into our system that hopefully prevent our organization degrading like the SL's did.
Replacing humanity 2.1 in few million years requires us to either replace Practice (because Insight) with something that works as good or better or proliferate whatever the Dragons did to our successor.

 

[Mossconfig]

I don't think that the kardashev scale is an appropriate unit of measure. Probably a three tier "uncontainable, containable, and indiscriminate".

few million years

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We don't really. We just have to have a better system than the shiplord's "kill anybody who challenges us, and kill anybody who isn't enough of a challenge for fun".

Of course, it would be a nice to have but we can spend 50 years chewing on that problem.

 

[ilbgar123]

That means we have to either co-opt the SLs net or get them onboard, set up an ethically more acceptable surveillance, reinstate the whole 'teaching the younger races', find a way to get successors when the current G7 go Uninvolved and install some failsaves into our system that hopefully prevent our organization degrading like the SL's did.
Replacing humanity 2.1 in few million years requires us to either replace Practice (because Insight) with something that works as good or better or proliferate whatever the Dragons did to our successor.

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I wonder if we could do some Klein Bottle shenanigans to make pocket universes? That's theoretically possible under conventional physics, so it might be relatively easy with Secret assistance. If we can make some new universes that are immune to vacuum collapse in ours by virtue of either having higher base energy or the opening not being able to translate the collapse, or simply being able to splinter off like that old theory of what black holes did with space-time to calve off new universes, then most 'universe-enders' cease to also be 'life-enders' as we can be sure that some individuals in current existence will continue to exist in at least some form. This would probably put a real damper on the sheer urgency of 'They could destroy the universe! Kill them now!' that serves as the second deepest level of justification the Shiplords use. Real 'bottom block of the Jenga Tower' move there.

 

[Snowfire]

3) They're recreating the hjiven's greatest hits, specifically the one that got an uninvolved to involve.

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No. No they are not. It's not even close.

 

[Baughn]

time travel (should it exist)

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Time travel in the usual fictional sense is effectively impossible, due to constraints in quantum mechanics, but lagless computing (in specific) and the First Secret (in general) incorporate it as part of their functionality.

There's nothing that indicates either should be banned.

 

[Mossconfig]

There's nothing that indicates either should be banned.

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Then perhaps the creation of paradoxes? Or time alterations? Something for the diplomats to decide.

they are not.

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I reread the second battle of sol.

The world spun under you, as if the very foundations of your existence were shifting, suddenly made quicksand by what you desperately didn't want to see. Everything you saw as beautiful, as who you were, these ships were and were not. You'd wanted to trace the imperfections, to find what was at their core, you'd found much more than that. Nanobiological, Vision had said. A big word to avoid vaster problems, like where the material for those living circuits came from. The Second Secret could create synthetic biomaterial, you knew that from Mary, but those ships weren't synthetic. You knew that now, and that was the problem. Who or what had gone into creating them you didn't know, and you understood even less of the why. It was creation and mending, perverted on a scale you'd never thought possible. The essence beneath was twisted and veiled, but it was still there, and you could see a little of it now. And that meant- There was a glimpse of something deeper, something more than just the knowledge you had now. :Amanda, stop!: Sidra yelled, and you tried to pull yourself back. Then there was pain. Power tore out through your Focus, a wave of light that burnt away the music in your mind. It wasn't mending, it wasn't even destruction. It was just energy, loosed without any form by your soul, and with it came the pain. The pain of staring into the most complete conceptual perversion you'd never dared imagine, and using the strength of your soul to do so. A soul that was dedicated to the concept that had been twisted. It didn't want to know what you'd found, it wanted it gone, and much of you agreed with that. But you needed what you'd found, for it was not within your power to simply wipe away the twisted music from reality.

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:We knew that Shiplord vessels were built using Shiplord technology.: You told her, reaching out to Sidra to help you stay calm, and a pane of clear glass slid between your mind and the memory. :But they're not made with synthetic biomaterial. The Medicament-class will be a hub for the conceptual perversion that Restorer Focused will experience, and the Collectors will be little better. Make sure that they're not looking too hard, and have their Platforms make sure.:

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Confirmation that the shiplords use tribute for their ships, and the effects that has on soul space are massive and wrong.

Here's the most mechanical breakdown I saw about the Hjiven abomination.

And this process, this thing, was growing too rapidly for those of that world to stop it. And when it reached the point of criticality, what would emerge? Nothing good, you could see that. Hunger. The cry echoed again, and you saw without seeing endless lines of life pouring into chambers at the heart of the terror's presence in the world beyond your own. You were meant to be better than this. To reach here, you were meant to find unity, not impose it. To do anything less would not be beauty, and this was far worse than mere ugliness. But you had also, all of you, agreed in the beginning. Acts upon the world beyond would not be taken without consensus. Yet there was no time for that now, as more souls streamed out of the husks that carried them.

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From our conversation with Kicha.

"Why is that so important?" You found it surprisingly difficult to hold back the anger you felt in the question. "They saved everything. If the Sphere had completed what they were doing here."
You broke off, shivering at the memory of the twisted, planetary scale murder that had fed the nascent abomination. You didn't notice then, how Kicha reacted, her veil slicing to edges and points like a cornered animal. A memory that you had, the words ran through your head. A memory the Shiplords didn't share. Everything they knew came from what the Uninvolved had told them, and how much had those beings really been able to explain across the barrier between existences?
"You built a way to watch them," you said slowly, eyes widening in horrified realisation. "You forged swords, to strike them down if it looked like they'd ever do it again."
"But did you listen?" Vega broke in aghast, the Harmonial racing ahead of your own thoughts. Finding the links, even before you did. "Did you understand what they tried to tell you? Your history says that the Hjivin were trying to create an Uninvolved, but do you have any idea how they were doing it?"
Kicha had stilled as you asked more questions. She froze into nigh-immobility as Vega asked the last one. There was horror in the Shiplords every facet, but something more, too. Disbelief.
"What do you mean?" She whispered.
"What do you know about what the Hjivin were doing here? Before they were… stopped."
Kicha flinched. "I know what I remember. I was on one of those ships that came here after it all ended. I… the Aspect, it spoke. It said that they had no choice, that they had to prevent the creation of an abomination. We believed it. We did!" You weren't sure if those last words were trying to convince you, or herself.

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Is the difference scope of the soul defilement? Scale of death? Concentration of suffering? Sophistication of harvesting? Because of all the things that have happened in this quest the Hjiven are the closest thing to compare tribute fleets wrongness to.

If the Hjiven aren't close, then pray tell what is?

 

[Baughn]

Then perhaps the creation of paradoxes? Or time alterations? Something for the diplomats to decide.

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Neither is possible. If you try, you get a massive explosion; planet-killer level, if you do it well enough.

Can't do it with the First though, that has safeties against that sort of thing.

 

[Mossconfig]

Neither is possible. If you try, you get a massive explosion; planet-killer level, if you do it well enoug

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Then we can ban it just fine.

safeties

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Interesting, a place to start.

In additional news, I tried to wrap my brain around why ftl=time travel and I think I came up short. Wouldn't it be easy to define a stationary frame of reference as a function of how much light redshift/blueshifts from your location?

 

[Simon_Jester]

If I remember rightly, and it has been nearly fifteen years since I cracked a book on the subject...

The problem comes out of general relativity, not special relativity.

The key insight is a combination of GR's well-supported axiom that there is no privileged frame of reference, plus understanding the much simpler special relativity equations surrounding time dilation and all that, the ones that are accessible to the general public and don't involve tensors.

At least in our universe as we know it, there is no privileged frame of reference; the perspective of someone hurtling by while sitting precariously on a cosmic ray particle passing thorough our solar system at 0.9999c is just as valid as our own.

Under general relativity, as soon as you allow for the possibility of causality violation in any frame of reference, you have what is objectively causality violation. It's not a case where that guy over there has been tricked somehow, it really IS causality violation.

And there is no possible form of FTL travel that won't look like causality violation in someone's frame of reference if the relativistic equations for converting the elapsed time and spacial separation between two events are applied consistently. To someone, it will always look as if the second event took place before the first, not just in the sense of "I saw it first," but in the sense of "back-plotting for how long the light took to reach us, it really did happen first."

That's why FTL is mathematically equivalent to time travel- because anything which appears to be the former in one frame of reference will appear to be the latter in at least one other hypothetical but attainable frame of reference. And attempting to cheat by defining a frame of reference that is used to determine whether something is "really" time travel or not introduces a privileged frame of reference into your system. Which smacks into other problems complex and obscure enough that I don't recall them, but suffice to say that there are problems.