[X] Side with the Philosophers (Officially back the Philosopher movement, which will require a significant time commitment to iron out the details with - One random action will be heavily penalized (if it's a megaproject action, only a partial penalty will apply), and the Codify Laws megaproject will complete with additional miniturn influence from the King)
The Passing of Beautiful Histories (Civ Quest)
- Thread starter Powerofmind
- Start date
- Original
-
- Tags
- civilization civ quest
On the other hand, backing the Faithful or the Burnished would weaken the power of the Oracle relative to whatever council of priests has formed, with the Faithful getting ourselves a new Oracle and the Burnished improving the Legitimacy of the King(once chosen) regardless of whether or not the Oracle continues to support said King.
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[X] Side with the Burnished (Officially back the Burnished movement, which will utterly stall most of the King's other plans - Cancel the Palace Megaproject, instead do a modified Codified Laws project and receive a near-full refund for the Palace cost)
While I may like both the Philosophers and Burnished for getting the King involved in the Legal Reform, the Burnished give a refund on the Palace(which cost us Martial) while the Philosophers either penalize our +Martial action or confer a Martial penalty on our Palace project.
Given that we currently have a rebellious tributary, I think the safe route is the Burnished.
*Divine Right of Kings Intensifies* Philosophers is viable for getting the King involved in two separate megaprojects at the same time... It just also means we'll probably still have a few Martial problems going into the Next turn.
Edit: Wait, misread. Partial penalty with the Philosophers. That could merely be an Econ/Wealth penalty.
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- Location
- Sweden
[X] Side with the Philosophers (Officially back the Philosopher movement, which will require a significant time commitment to iron out the details with - One random action will be heavily penalized (if it's a megaproject action, only a partial penalty will apply), and the Codify Laws megaproject will complete with additional miniturn influence from the King)
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- She/Her/They/Them
[X] Side with the Philosophers (Officially back the Philosopher movement, which will require a significant time commitment to iron out the details with - One random action will be heavily penalized (if it's a megaproject action, only a partial penalty will apply), and the Codify Laws megaproject will complete with additional miniturn influence from the King)
- Location
- his hidden lair
[X] Side with the Burnished (Officially back the Burnished movement, which will utterly stall most of the King's other plans - Cancel the Palace Megaproject, instead do a modified Codified Laws project and receive a near-full refund for the Palace cost)
Qeqre seems to have the right of it, addresses our ailing martial, consolidates the King's authority while retaining the Oracle's role in electing a king.
Qeqre seems to have the right of it, addresses our ailing martial, consolidates the King's authority while retaining the Oracle's role in electing a king.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
In case it's not clear, this will also have some pretty strong knock-on effects on the development of a proper religion. I tried to leave a few hints in the text as to what they all might do, so please, take your guesses.
The vibe I got was:
-Early sectarianism if we tell them to leave the King out of this. Possibly alongside Priest-on-Priest warfare.
-Religious zealotry/fundamentalism in the Literalists
-Religious Orthodoxy and devolution of powers from the Oracle in the Faithful(no newfangled reforms from young upstarts that don't respect the elders).
-Religious strictures and a pragmatic approach to religion in the Philosophers.
-Separation of Church and State with the Burnished.
[X] Side with the Burnished (Officially back the Burnished movement, which will utterly stall most of the King's other plans - Cancel the Palace Megaproject, instead do a modifiedCodified Laws project and receive a near-full refund for the Palace cost)
- Location
- Somewhere
[X] Side with the Faithful (Officially back the Faithful movement, which requires barely any personal input to deal with the outcome and effectively cancels the Codify Laws megaproject, and also forcibly replaces the Oracle mid-term)
@Powerofmind what do most people in the civ think of the current reigning dynasty?
@Powerofmind what do most people in the civ think of the current reigning dynasty?
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
The people have been through quite a lot, but the leaders are the leaders, and have been for pretty much all of well-recorded history. The reigning dynasty by this point is so large that even not liking one king means nothing for the bloodline, they'll just pull from another branch.
[X] Side with the Philosophers (Officially back the Philosopher movement, which will require a significant time commitment to iron out the details with - One random action will be heavily penalized (if it's a megaproject action, only a partial penalty will apply), and the Codify Laws megaproject will complete with additional miniturn influence from the King)
- Location
- Somewhere
Which king in the dynasty is the most respected, so far? And how well are the kings in the dynasty remembered?
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Omon is new, but people like him well enough.
Selja is revered, since he waged the first real War and was blessed with victory.
Selja's predecessor is remembered as misguided.
His predecessor is believed to have reigned for a hundred prosperous years.
His predecessor is believed to have come from a mystical journey following disaster, and is revered nearly as a spirit himself.
Before that is Time Immemorial, and stories become very contradictory, but it is said that Men were blessed, and ignorantly broke very, very old Laws, making them mortal. When pity was shown to them, and they were blessed again - enough for plenty - they broke the Taboo Things instead, which prompted the disaster that led to the spirits deciding a firmer, direct hand was needed to keep people in line, which was when the first Oracle foresaw the first King.
- Location
- Anchorage, Alaska
[X] Side with the Philosophers (Officially back the Philosopher movement, which will require a significant time commitment to iron out the details with - One random action will be heavily penalized (if it's a megaproject action, only a partial penalty will apply), and the Codify Laws megaproject will complete with additional miniturn influence from the King)
yeah, the Oracle's aren't doing very good at keeping a hand on things, if anything theyre the new magnet for "Malicious" spirits to fuck around with and cause MORE problems.
yeah, the Oracle's aren't doing very good at keeping a hand on things, if anything theyre the new magnet for "Malicious" spirits to fuck around with and cause MORE problems.
- Location
- Earth
[X] Side with the Philosophers (Officially back the Philosopher movement, which will require a significant time commitment to iron out the details with - One random action will be heavily penalized (if it's a megaproject action, only a partial penalty will apply), and the Codify Laws megaproject will complete with additional miniturn influence from the King)
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Pretty solid lead. I'll run with it.
The Admonishments to Live By
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
I'll be doing a comparatively free-form vote and being exceptionally narrative here, as an experiment. Here's hoping it works.
The Three Admonishments According to the Philosophers
As Men toil upon the earth and the Earthly Spirits are disturbed by their works, the curses of their disturbances grow heavy on their bodies. In order to cleanse the body and soul of it's Earthly Curses, all must wash themselves regularly, at the turn of the week, lest the accumulation of Earthly Curses from disturbing the Spirits cause harm to themselves or others through sickness, deviance, and other manifestations of the Mortal Curses. For the farmers and herders, they must instead wash themselves every second day. For those who regularly shape or draw copper from the earth, they should wash every day.
This washing should always be done with flowing water, such as a river or water freshly drawn from a river, used for no other purpose. Water that flows is pure, and not contaminated with Earthly Spirits. Drawn water used for washing should immediately be cast onto the earth, so the curses can be given back to the earth and satisfied.
This is done because the first Spirits to curse Men were the spirits of the Earth, when they withheld good things from Men after they broke the rules laid down at the beginning.
When Men die, they should be allowed to join their ancestors in the night sky. For this reason, all should be buried on clear nights, facing the sky so they might find their way. Those who are evil or unworthy of their ancestors through disrespect should not be allowed to join their ancestors, and should be buried either during the day or on clouded nights, face down.
This is done because in the darkness of night, away from the brightness of the sun, Men's eyes are able to see the light of the spirits, and their ancestors, in the night sky.
The most heinous of deviant things are Desire and Wantonness in all their forms. As all of Men's worst transgressions were the result of their passions, leading to the twin curses of Mortality and Suffering, Men should always strive for Ezilia (reason/restraint/order), and pass on this virtue to their sons and daughters. The only exception to this rule is Hewla (benevolent/selfless love), since it is through Hewla that Men exist, through Hewla that Men were afforded mercy after their first transgression, and through Hewla that Men were afforded mercy a second time.
This is done because in passion Men were made Mortal, and in passion Men were made to Suffer.
The Rules of Conduct Among Men According to the Philosophers
Please plan this vote, choosing one of each task, as it is very complex and there are some incredibly crippling negative interactions hidden in here
[] [Laws] The King counsels that only the most moral of laws be used. (the basics, stealing, killing, injury, etc.)
[] [Laws] The King counsels that the moral and sensible laws be used. (the basics AND some hierarchical behavior restrictions - prevents some abuses, etc.)
[] [Laws] The King counsels that all laws on the conduct of men be used. (the basics, hierarchy restrictions, and highly ritualized lifestyle/social laws - social conduct with others, formal interaction rules, etc.)
[] [Punishment] The King counsels the more Draconian rules on punishment.
[] [Punishment] The King counsels the Retributive rules on punishment.
[] [Punishment] The King counsels the more Forgiving rules on punishment.
[] [Disputes] The King counsels His Word alone settle disputes between men.
[] [Disputes] The King counsels a Priests' Debate settle disputes between men.
[] [Disputes] The King counsels the One Person most responsible for the disputing men settle their disputes.
[] [Enforcement] The King gives free reign to the Warriors and Armies to enforce all moral laws as they see fit.
[] [Enforcement] The King lays the responsibility of enforcement on the Leaders of cities.
[] [Land] The King counsels that all Land is His.
[] [Land] The King counsels that Land belongs to the Leader of the nearest city.
[] [Land] The King counsels that Land may only belong to those who have offered themselves to the Armies.
[] [Land] The King counsels that Land can belong to anyone who pays tax for it's protection from foreigners.
[] [Food] The King counsels that all food is the Kingdom's property to distribute accordingly.
[] [Food] The King counsels that all food is private property that is taxed to the Granaries.
[] [Taxes] The King counsels that coin is the domain of each man who owns it.
[] [Taxes] The King counsels that a coin must be paid to the King per head of all his living subjects.
[] [Taxes] The King counsels that Leaders of cities must tribute a tax in coin proportional to the warriors that protect them.
- Location
- New York
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Plan Winging It
-[X] [Laws] The King counsels that the moral and sensible laws be used. (the basics AND some hierarchical behavior restrictions - prevents some abuses, etc.)
-[X] [Punishment] The King counsels the more Forgiving rules on punishment.
-[X] [Disputes] The King counsels the One Person most responsible for the disputing men settle their disputes.
-[X] [Land] The King counsels that Land can belong to anyone who pays tax for it's protection from foreigners.
-[X] [Food] The King counsels that all food is private property that is taxed to the Granaries.
-[X] [Taxes] The King counsels that Leaders of cities must tribute a tax in coin proportional to the warriors that protect them.
I think this avoids pitfalls, but I'm not clear on the best method of taxation.
-[X] [Laws] The King counsels that the moral and sensible laws be used. (the basics AND some hierarchical behavior restrictions - prevents some abuses, etc.)
-[X] [Punishment] The King counsels the more Forgiving rules on punishment.
-[X] [Disputes] The King counsels the One Person most responsible for the disputing men settle their disputes.
-[X] [Land] The King counsels that Land can belong to anyone who pays tax for it's protection from foreigners.
-[X] [Food] The King counsels that all food is private property that is taxed to the Granaries.
-[X] [Taxes] The King counsels that Leaders of cities must tribute a tax in coin proportional to the warriors that protect them.
I think this avoids pitfalls, but I'm not clear on the best method of taxation.
[X]Plan HARSH
-[X] [Laws] The King counsels that only the most moral of laws be used. (the basics, stealing, killing, injury, etc.)
-[X] [Punishment] The King counsels the more Draconian rules on punishment.
-[X] [Disputes] The King counsels a Priests' Debate settle disputes between men.
-[X] [Enforcement] The King lays the responsibility of enforcement on the Leaders of cities.
-[X] [Land] The King counsels that Land can belong to anyone who pays tax for it's protection from foreigners.
-[X] [Food] The King counsels that all food is the Kingdom's property to distribute accordingly.
-[X] [Taxes] The King counsels that a coin must be paid to the King per head of all his living subjects.
-[X] [Laws] The King counsels that only the most moral of laws be used. (the basics, stealing, killing, injury, etc.)
-[X] [Punishment] The King counsels the more Draconian rules on punishment.
-[X] [Disputes] The King counsels a Priests' Debate settle disputes between men.
-[X] [Enforcement] The King lays the responsibility of enforcement on the Leaders of cities.
-[X] [Land] The King counsels that Land can belong to anyone who pays tax for it's protection from foreigners.
-[X] [Food] The King counsels that all food is the Kingdom's property to distribute accordingly.
-[X] [Taxes] The King counsels that a coin must be paid to the King per head of all his living subjects.
- Location
- Sweden
[X] Plan Winging It
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
[X] Plan This Should've Been Left to The Oracle, I'm Just Throwing Stuff At the Wall
-[X] [Laws] The King counsels that all laws on the conduct of men be used. (the basics, hierarchy restrictions, and highly ritualized lifestyle/social laws - social conduct with others, formal interaction rules, etc.)
Right, we know that unrighteous behavour can anger the Spirits, and that sufficiently angering the Spirits can result in earthquakes, fires and terrible floods. I think I speak for everyone when I say that we very much don't want that to happen. The strict rules suck for our people, but we need to keep them on the straight and narrow to avoid calamity.
Normally, I would fear that such rigid and unchangeable rules wold be an affront to Uwali, the Changer of Ways, but since the dangerous Spirits here are everyone else (and the One Above Twenty And Four doesn't seem to care much) I think we need to heed the lower ones here.
-[X] [Punishment] The King counsels the Retributive rules on punishment.
Unfortunately, we need our people to actually live, so we can't go full Draconian. Going Forgiving would be better, but if we're too forgiving people will not follow the rules and then everything explodes again. And goodness knows what people will do if they get their hands on copper.
-[X] [Disputes] The King counsels the One Person most responsible for the disputing men settle their disputes.
... This is just to get it out of our way. Yes, the priests would be the best suited to solve these issues. but they have more important things to do. Unfortunately, this leaves room for people to not follow the spiritual rules and invite calamity, but we aren't perfect.
-[X] [Enforcement] The King lays the responsibility of enforcement on the Leaders of cities.
AHAHAHAHAHA GIVING THE WARRIORS THE POWER TO PUNISH PEOPLE FOR NOT HAVING PROPER CONDUCT, THAT'S HILARIOUS
-[X] [Land] The King counsels that Land can belong to anyone who pays tax for it's protection from foreigners.
This basically saying that people paying tribute to us are within our borders. @Omegahugger likes this.
-[X] [Food] The King counsels that all food is the Kingdom's property to distribute accordingly.
By controlling the food, we can hopefully help all our citisens once someone inevitably pisses off the Earth Spirits enough for everything to blow up. Again.
-[X] [Taxes] The King counsels that Leaders of cities must tribute a tax in coin proportional to the warriors that protect them.
Everyone under our "protection" pays, and the more "protected" they are the more they shall pay!
-[X] [Laws] The King counsels that all laws on the conduct of men be used. (the basics, hierarchy restrictions, and highly ritualized lifestyle/social laws - social conduct with others, formal interaction rules, etc.)
Right, we know that unrighteous behavour can anger the Spirits, and that sufficiently angering the Spirits can result in earthquakes, fires and terrible floods. I think I speak for everyone when I say that we very much don't want that to happen. The strict rules suck for our people, but we need to keep them on the straight and narrow to avoid calamity.
Normally, I would fear that such rigid and unchangeable rules wold be an affront to Uwali, the Changer of Ways, but since the dangerous Spirits here are everyone else (and the One Above Twenty And Four doesn't seem to care much) I think we need to heed the lower ones here.
-[X] [Punishment] The King counsels the Retributive rules on punishment.
Unfortunately, we need our people to actually live, so we can't go full Draconian. Going Forgiving would be better, but if we're too forgiving people will not follow the rules and then everything explodes again. And goodness knows what people will do if they get their hands on copper.
-[X] [Disputes] The King counsels the One Person most responsible for the disputing men settle their disputes.
... This is just to get it out of our way. Yes, the priests would be the best suited to solve these issues. but they have more important things to do. Unfortunately, this leaves room for people to not follow the spiritual rules and invite calamity, but we aren't perfect.
-[X] [Enforcement] The King lays the responsibility of enforcement on the Leaders of cities.
AHAHAHAHAHA GIVING THE WARRIORS THE POWER TO PUNISH PEOPLE FOR NOT HAVING PROPER CONDUCT, THAT'S HILARIOUS
-[X] [Land] The King counsels that Land can belong to anyone who pays tax for it's protection from foreigners.
This basically saying that people paying tribute to us are within our borders. @Omegahugger likes this.
-[X] [Food] The King counsels that all food is the Kingdom's property to distribute accordingly.
By controlling the food, we can hopefully help all our citisens once someone inevitably pisses off the Earth Spirits enough for everything to blow up. Again.
-[X] [Taxes] The King counsels that Leaders of cities must tribute a tax in coin proportional to the warriors that protect them.
Everyone under our "protection" pays, and the more "protected" they are the more they shall pay!
Hum, demand vs enforcement. Probably want to keep these balanced against one another.
Authority to the King, a priest's debate to generate a Jury of sorts or the One Person to make the laws localized instead of uniform.
Hrm, while the King would concentrate authority to said King and make the laws more uniform, they would be less reactive to local conditions and the King would be pretty busy. A Priests' debate could probably handle more/stricter laws due to a combination of moral authority(priests) and it being a debate amongst multiple wisemen. Probably no more than one step though.
Warrior nobility vs high aristocracy.
The former is probably better suited to deal with [many laws, forgiving punishments], the latter probably works better with strict punishments to serve as deterrents in order to reduce the administrative load.
Oh cool, we get to choose a unitary state vs federal state after all. And the if and how our government may or may not try to strive for centralization.
Hum, probably want to avoid mirroring Enforcement if we don't want the rulers of individual cities or popular generals from gaining too much power, but going for the Armies could accelerate the warrior aristocracy.
Private property + protection racket sounds like it would encourage early capitalism, possibly paired with a villa system. Could be useful, but this kind of large-scale agriculture might deplete the topsoil as it did for the Romans, and the "pay for its protection" probably requires we maintain military hegemony over the region.
King's lands + Kingdom's property is a full-blown palace economy. Might even resemble the Egyptian model.
No tax vs individual population tax vs proportional tax per administrative district.
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[X] Plan King's Dominion
-[X] [Laws] The King counsels that the moral and sensible laws be used. (the basics AND some hierarchical behavior restrictions - prevents some abuses, etc.)
-[X] [Punishment] The King counsels the Retributive rules on punishment.
-[X] [Disputes] The King counsels His Word alone settle disputes between men.
-[X] [Enforcement] The King lays the responsibility of enforcement on the Leaders of cities.
-[X] [Land] The King counsels that all Land is His.
-[X] [Food] The King counsels that all food is private property that is taxed to the Granaries.
-[X] [Taxes] The King counsels that Leaders of cities must tribute a tax in coin proportional to the warriors that protect them.
So basically, we have the King counseling that all land is His, that the people own the fruits of their labour but that the King is entitled to a share, because the land is his.
The city leaders are granted the authority to enforce the moral laws. In exchange, they are to provide taxes which are in turn used by the King to offer protection. A simple social contract.
Disputes to be settled by the Word of the King, his word is law, the punishments punitive yet fair and not too concerned with how people live their lives as long as they Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's.
- Location
- United States
This seems like a good medium between the two extremes.
I'm generally inclined to go with this, although it's really a matter of principle.
Considering how religious in nature this whole Law is, it'd be appropriate. Priests are a pretty good third party, and it's give them a lever of official secular power to focus on besides stirring up the people.
This seems a lot more sane than the other option.
A nice idea, but it requires a really strong beurocracy and corruption is devastating. I'm inclined just to stick with what we know works.
... This is actually kind of clever.
[X] Plan King's Dominion
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So:
-The person most responsible for the disputing peoples are responsible for settling disputes.
-The land is owned by whoever pays protection money to the armies.
-The leaders of the cities are responsible for paying the city's protection money to the armies.
-The leaders of the cities in turn get to be responsible for enforcing moral laws.
I think that combo might lead to the Leaders of the cities being viewed as owning the cities similar to how people outside the cities own the land they pay protection money for.
Likewise, this could lead to the rural landowners claiming the authority to enforce moral laws or settle disputes on their lands, as these are their lands that they pay tribute for.
And when it comes to disputes between two landowners? Well, both pay taxes to the armies and generals for protection so...
Depends on the role we want the military to have really. It could work with a combo like:
[] [Disputes] The King counsels the One Person most responsible for the disputing men settle their disputes.
[] [Enforcement] The King gives free reign to the Warriors and Armies to enforce all moral laws as they see fit.
[] [Land] The King counsels that Land may only belong to those who have offered themselves to the Armies.
Which seems to pave the way for a landed warrior aristocracy that rule their lands as they see fit. Which in turn might mean the King only has to worry about settling disputes between top-ranking warriors.