Once we deal with rebellious tributary we are going to need to swing back to building walls in our cities to trigger a law reform again. The great palace chugs along too.
That wasn't the players triggering a law reform. That was the Oracle taking charge to create the first laws Mega-project, fortunately it blew up in her face, the King got called in to judge the future of the law progress.
We would be hunting for corruption next, not building walls if we wanted to do something about our laws.
edit: However our stats in Martial and Wealth are likely to read as 3 in each category if we build a fortress. We might go with 'Military Training', or 'Artisan trades' instead of 'hunt corruption' next.
That wasn't the players triggering a law reform. That was the Oracle taking charge to create the first laws Mega-project, fortunately it blew up in her face, the King got called in to judge the future of the law progress.
We would be hunting for corruption next, not building walls if we wanted to do something about our laws.
edit: However our stats in Martial and Wealth are likely to read as 3 in each category if we build a fortress. We might go with 'Military Training', or 'Artisan trades' instead of 'hunt corruption' next.
Well yeah but we slipped up not centralizing who enforces punishment so now we have to deal with it as well. Building walls removes a step from troubled times whereas hunting for corruption possibly removes a step from troubled times. Building walls puts loyal solidere garrisoning the cities thus making it eaiser to enforce royal edicts.
Well yeah but we slipped up not centralizing who enforces punishment so now we have to deal with it as well. Building walls removes a step from troubled times whereas hunting for corruption possibly removes a step from troubled times. Building walls puts loyal solidere garrisoning the cities thus making it eaiser to enforce royal edicts.
Wouldn't you want fortify city, not build wall? Build wall gives the city protection from an invading army, not attaching loyal soldiers. Fortify city is the action that would decrease troubled times.
Edit: I messed up a tiny bit in this post, fixed now. I still prefer hunt for corruption because fortify city is guaranteed to lose us stability, whereas hunt for corruption looks like a 50/50 chance of losing stability (looks like it includes a 50/50 chance of not removing a step from troubled times, but it comes with a chance to gain stability).
Well yeah but we slipped up not centralizing who enforces punishment so now we have to deal with it as well. Building walls removes a step from troubled times whereas hunting for corruption possibly removes a step from troubled times. Building walls puts loyal solidere garrisoning the cities thus making it eaiser to enforce royal edicts.
Wouldn't you want fortify city, not build wall? Build wall gives the city protection from an invading army, not attaching loyal soldiers. Fortify city is the action that would decrease troubled times.
Edit: I messed up a tiny bit in this post, fixed now. I still prefer hunt for corruption because fortify city is guaranteed to lose us stability, whereas hunt for corruption looks like a 50/50 chance of losing stability (looks like it includes a 50/50 chance of not removing a step from troubled times, but it comes with a chance to gain stability).
Indeed, I'll let misconceptions slide, but I'll correct errors. Walls bad. It's too easy for internal elements to take out the King's garrison for a wall, since the wall garrison comes with an assumption of internal safety. A proper hillfort is more secure against local elements, and maintains it's own semi-independent culture.
Fortifying a city no longer costs us Martial, removes a -Stability and offers an incremental +Martial for later turns.
It's essentially a -Wealth, -Martial, -Stability for +Stability later and +~Martial later.
Edit:
Hunting for Corruption isn't guaranteed on Wealth or Stability. Removing local enforcement rights right now would still leave us leaking Stability and while the Silfi Forestlands fortress might be useful for reducing our Martial penalties, we're currently sitting at +~3 vs -~2.
The only relevant part of the Silfi is the copper Quarry, of which the expansion could stem our current Wealth bleed of -1(no~) that could end up forcing us to take +Wealth actions or suspend the palace if allowed to continue.
As such:
[X] Fortify [Dalwa] (-Wealth, -Stability, +Martial later, removes a step of Troubled Times) [Anye, Dalwa]
[X] Fortify [Anye] (-Wealth, -Stability, +Martial later, removes a step of Troubled Times) [Anye, Dalwa]
[X] Expand the mine at the Silfi Riverbank Region (--Wealth, -Martial, might find more copper, ++Regional Wealth)
The Silfi Fortress raises Stability and lowers a penalty to our Martial. However:
Fortifying a city no longer costs us Martial, removes a -Stability and offers an incremental +Martial for later turns.
It's essentially a -Wealth, -Martial, -Stability for +Stability later and +~Martial later.
Edit:
Hunting for Corruption isn't guaranteed on Wealth or Stability. Removing local enforcement rights right now would still leave us leaking Stability and while the Silfi Forestlands fortress might be useful for reducing our Martial penalties, we're currently sitting at +~3 vs -~2.
The only relevant part of the Silfi is the copper Quarry, of which the expansion could stem our current Wealth bleed of -1(no~) that could end up forcing us to take +Wealth actions or suspend the palace if allowed to continue.
As such:
[X] Fortify [Dalwa] (-Wealth, -Stability, +Martial later, removes a step of Troubled Times) [Anye, Dalwa]
[X] Fortify [Anye] (-Wealth, -Stability, +Martial later, removes a step of Troubled Times) [Anye, Dalwa]
[X] Expand the mine at the Silfi Riverbank Region (--Wealth, -Martial, might find more copper, ++Regional Wealth)
What about the benefit of the Fortress possibly stabilizing our restless tributaries in the Silfi? Stabilize the tributary agression first, looks like one more fortress would end the issue, then work on the Troubled Times issue. There is also a rising Ascetic Critics problem, but meh, not yet a problem.
What about the benefit of the Fortress possibly stabilizing our restless tributaries in the Silfi? Stabilize the tributary agression first, looks like one more fortress would end the issue, then work on the Troubled Times issue. There is also a rising Ascetic Critics problem, but meh, not yet a problem.
We have a fortress in the only area of the Silfi that matters(the Quarry, which generates Wealth) and are using it as an opportunity for young warriors to earn glory(which is currently putting us on a meritocratic* path as skilled warriors earn glory and marry members of the royal family).
Right now? Our Martial is trending upwards at a rate of +~1 per turn. So the Silfi Tributary rebellion is both less time-sensitive and may even benefit our military tech progression as our warriors do more fighting(plus, Fortifying another of our Domestic settlements means higher Martial generation, widening the power imbalance between the Mayep and Silfi).
The bigger problem is Wealth. Being at 4 Wealth and dropping 1 per turn means we essentially have a 1-2 turn window to Expand the Mine at the Silfi Riverbank before we're forced to resort to other options. And aside from hoping our values will convert an Econ surplus into Wealth, that the Palace finishes before Wealth runs out or that Stability stabilizes enough for us to settle the Coast(at which point legal precedent might give us our second action back), the remaining alternative options to the Quarry aren't very appealing. Whereas the non-Fort Silfi rebellion action(send troops, -1 Martial, +1 Stability) is pretty decent.
And Crushing the Silfi revolt gave us a +Stability modifier. So it's probably not much of a problem to place that issue on the backburner for a while.
.
As an aside, the Grand Docks megaproject disappeared this turn. Which could explain part of the recent dip in Wealth and Econ(and the boat innovation).
They can probably pay the coin tax given that the Metalworks is completed too. And they were the city that actually had to be invaded.
Fortifying Anye the Wealth-generating city that can build a lot of boats is probably more important than fortifying Dalwa(which is one of two major food producing settlements when we have an abundance of food and when farming is greatly benefiting from Anye's copper tools). Also, it might keep the Anye cabals honest.
We have a fortress in the only area of the Silfi that matters(the Quarry, which generates Wealth) and are using it as an opportunity for young warriors to earn glory(which is currently putting us on a meritocratic* path as skilled warriors earn glory and marry members of the royal family).
Right now? Our Martial is trending upwards at a rate of +~1 per turn. So the Silfi Tributary rebellion is both less time-sensitive and may even benefit our military tech progression as our warriors do more fighting(plus, Fortifying another of our Domestic settlements means higher Martial generation, widening the power imbalance between the Mayep and Silfi).
The bigger problem is Wealth. Being at 4 Wealth and dropping 1 per turn means we essentially have a 1-2 turn window to Expand the Mine at the Silfi Riverbank before we're forced to resort to other options. And aside from hoping our values will convert an Econ surplus into Wealth, that the Palace finishes before Wealth runs out or that Stability stabilizes enough for us to settle the Coast(at which point legal precedent might give us our second action back), the remaining alternative options to the Quarry aren't very appealing. Whereas the non-Fort Silfi rebellion action(send troops, -1 Martial, +1 Stability) is pretty decent.
And Crushing the Silfi revolt gave us a +Stability modifier. So it's probably not much of a problem to place that issue on the backburner for a while.
.
As an aside, the Grand Docks megaproject disappeared this turn. Which could explain part of the recent dip in Wealth and Econ(and the boat innovation).
They can probably pay the coin tax given that the Metalworks is completed too. And they were the city that actually had to be invaded.
Fortifying Anye the Wealth-generating city that can build a lot of boats is probably more important than fortifying Dalwa(which is one of two major food producing settlements when we have an abundance of food and when farming is greatly benefiting from Anye's copper tools). Also, it might keep the Anye cabals honest.
In case you guys haven't noticed, the + and - aren't hardfast rules. They're actually indicators I'm using to determine intensity of progress gain and loss. You've just been really obscenely lucky lately.
Out of curiosity, will the basic parts of the Palace be useable once we get a certain amount of progress in? Generally the most important areas of a building are constructed first, and thus useable, before adding the extra wings.
In case you guys haven't noticed, the + and - aren't hardfast rules. They're actually indicators I'm using to determine intensity of progress gain and loss. You've just been really obscenely lucky lately.
Did notice. But I'll reiterate that the Silfi tributaries don't contribute a lot to our economy in their current state of being a lot of small villages.
Plus, it's easier(and possibly more relevant) to point to the latest update than to go digging up the post about the (Dalwan) landowner class being broken when it comes to their power(relative to the Anye merchants), about the cities potentially wanting to break away and about (royalist) fort garrisons mitigating the cities' ability to subvert royal authority.
In case you guys haven't noticed, the + and - aren't hardfast rules. They're actually indicators I'm using to determine intensity of progress gain and loss. You've just been really obscenely lucky lately.
That's good to know, though I do somewhat worry that could get quite tricky in the later game seeing as the diligent record-keepers around here wouldn't be able to tell if something is an actual error or if we just went critical on some roll.
My current goal for this quest is to finish that palace! I don't care if we collapse, so long as we finish it before we do. A Palace-City is the stuff of legends. If we finish it and don't collapse, we can expect a huge boost in attention (both good and bad) as well as major economic boosts and possibly cultural boosts. If we finish it and do collapse, we're basically the Lost City of Atlantis, El Dorado, or whatever the name of that one Buddhist lost city in the Himalayas is.
I truly think that finishing something on this level is big enough to make a quest-goal.
Thank you for the information, though I've looked back at the last 3 chapters and still not been able to find that information.
That's good to know, though I do somewhat worry that could get quite tricky in the later game seeing as the diligent record-keepers around here wouldn't be able to tell if something is an actual error or if we just went critical on some roll.
My current goal for this quest is to finish that palace! I don't care if we collapse, so long as we finish it before we do. A Palace-City is the stuff of legends. If we finish it and don't collapse, we can expect a huge boost in attention (both good and bad) as well as major economic boosts and possibly cultural boosts. If we finish it and do collapse, we're basically the Lost City of Atlantis, El Dorado, or whatever the name of that one Buddhist lost city in the Himalayas is.
I truly think that finishing something on this level is big enough to make a quest-goal.
Completion of such a wonder would be beyond par with some of the other most impressive constructions in history like Tenochtitlan's floating city or the Terracotta Army (and the burial complex associated with it).
As to the other thing, it will stabilize in time; most of the randomness is due to a lack of bureaucracy and the land area under your control, despite the absolute nature of that control. You never know what you will be able to get your hands on or what's going on around the polity because there's not enough good record-keeping; you send someone to pick up soldiers for a project from a city, and find out they've been dutifully recruiting based on some nebulous order given some nebulous time ago, or a city has been having a bad set of harvests but you only find out when you send someone to tap their granaries for extra supplies.
That said, I do believe we have a winner in another Silfi fort, and I thankfully have a weekend approaching. Let's see how that goes.
Ulrah rubbed his chin, intrigue evident, but tempered by ignorance. "What is it?"
"We are not wholly sure, Lord," offered the first foreman, eliciting the second to drive his elbow into the speaker's ribs. "T-That is to say, we struck it a few times to see it's give, had some sent to a smelter... It is like copper, but more brilliant, easier to shape and... quite a bit heavier."
Looking out over the excavation, Ulrah squinted. "And you say there is more of it? Found in the earth here?"
The two head foremen nodded, before the second foreman sighed and spoke. "Yes, Lord. There seems to be a snaking vein of it, though it is much less abundant than Anye's mine."
"Mmm," Ulrah acknowledged, considering the rough sun-yellow disk in his fingers. "Dig more of it up. I'm sure we will find a use for it."
----
Ulrah's displeasure was evident. "Why has the digging stopped?" he demanded. "This is the only other auspicious orientation of the city the Oracle supported, and with the new metal mine, it will be very difficult to build my Palace in it's old place, especially if I find myself needing a pit to put unruly workmen into."
The work foreman, sufficiently impressed on the trouble he was causing, bowed low. "Lord, apologies, but... we've found another metal."
Still bowing, the man gestured furiously for an aide to bring in a sample of it. Ulrah took the piece, shaped and purified experimentally, and looked it over. As opposed to the almost sun-like brilliance of Gold, this new metal was similar to a yellowed moon, gleaming faintly despite the rough treatment.
"As much as I will enjoy decorating things with many colors of metals, I do not see how this should be a concern for me," Ulrah finally decided. "I have already a new mine in Maye, why would I want another?"
The foreman, at first supplicant, now seemed almost eager, gesturing once more for the aide, who brought out a fourth metal, and while Ulrah almost thought it gold in the light, saw that it lacked a certain luster... it almost seemed... coppery...
"It was an accident, Lord. At least, at first," says the foreman. "Leftover copper was in the bottom of a smelting pit, and some of the new gold had mixed in. The gold is much too soft on it's own, but when it mixed with the copper as it, too, melted down, the resulting gold was stronger. So, when we found this new metal..."
Ulrah finished for him, seeing where this was going. "You wanted to see if it did the same thing," he sped along. He was beginning to see... some value in this. "And?"
The foreman's grin answered before his mouth opened. Perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to simply settle the palace around the new mine, after all.
----
Not all was good and wonder. Traders who performed missions to the Oathtribes and Alwethi had begun to speak of major disasters in the regions. Specifically, horrific plagues of sores, boils, and delirium that laid low most of their victims. The priests, and the Oracle, suggested their suffering was the result of angering (or awakening, depending on the priest) an awesome and terrible thing, a spirit who was King over other spirits, a god of Death. Already there were several cases reported within the borders of the Kingdom, and panic had gripped a number of important people, who had started pre-emptively killing those who showed the first signs of the disease.
The King was expected to deal with the issue post-haste, or at least legitimize the more aggressive measures local leaders had taken to prevent the cursed spirits from spreading into their communities.
[] [Disease] Quarantine the Kingdom. The god of Death carries his soldiers through the souls of men and their ancestors, and a good many traders, and their families, have fallen ill. (Potential Wealth collapse, might work)
[] [Disease] Obey the Priests and Oracle. Ritualistic washing will be greatly expanded upon, as well as the use of salt, which carries the essence of the Sea and protects from curses such as disease. (Might work, will hurt wealth a bit)
[] [Disease] Support the local authorities. Any man claimed by the curses of disease will have to be killed and buried away from the usual mounds and temple grounds. (Might work, will probably increase Troubled Times)
Construction of the Palace has been heavily delayed due to the discovery of Gold and Tin found in the vicinity of Maye. While the gold vein is small and will likely dry up shortly, all indications are that the tin ore can be found in great quantities, possibly as much as the copper mines at Anye, if lesser in purity.
Unfortunately, trying to run two large-scale mines on the outskirts of the city, in the middle of a massive restructuring, is not an easy feat, and the presence of the mines has forced several architects to reconsult the plans for the Palace, based on certain other designs.
[] [Designs] Adjust the plans to support the new Palace's position (Makes the next stage of the project take longer to complete, project reverts to Stage One to complete adjustments)
[] [Designs] Adjust the plans to support a slightly different Palace Layout (Makes this stage take longer to complete, reverting to Stage One for a short adjustment, fortifies one of the countryside mines with the Palace Complex)
-[] The Tin mine
-[] The Gold mine
The Oracle
**Consult the Oracle (Spends an action, ???)
Push for an Heir [Type] (Spends an action, types the heir) [Administrator, Diplomat, Warrior]
[A consultation is a ceremonious visit to the Oracle's Seat in Gadawa. It looks favorably on the King and all but ensures support from the Oracle, and might prompt strange opportunities, but the political power of that particular King is somewhat diminished for it]
[A push for an Heir prompts the king to put pressure on the Oracle and the priesthood to elevate a particular relative to Prince. This choice will have talents the King believes necessary to the Mayep. Such a choice will upset the priesthood and the Oracle]
Manpower
Military Training (~Martial)
Land Grants (+Economy)
Artisan Trades (~Wealth)
Legalism
Hunt for Corruption (+/-Wealth, +/-Stability, Possibly remove a step of Troubled Times)
Begin removing local enforcement rights (--Stability, Removes a step of Troubled Times)
Trade
Mission to [Polity] (-Wealth, ?Wealth Later, ???) [Long-Coast, Oathtribes, Alwethi]
The Oathtribes are suffering from a disaster. Send them aid (--Economy, -Wealth, ???)
The Alwethi are suffering from a disaster. Send them aid (--Economy, -Wealth, ???)
Long-Term Projects
Subjugate more tributaries from the [faction] (-??? Martial, ???) [Alwethi (easier), Long-Coast Tribes (tough), Oathtribes (toughest)]
Settle [region] (-Economy, +??? later) [North Coast (trade), South Coast (trade)]
Prospect [region] for metals (-Wealth) [Maye, Gadawa, Dalwa]
City Improvements (Maye, Anye, Gadawa, Dalwa)
*Build walls for [city] (-Economy, -Wealth, slow project) [Maye, Anye, Gadawa, Dalwa]
Fortify [city] (-Wealth, -Stability, +Martial later, +Wealth later, removes a step of Troubled Times) [Anye, Dalwa]
Build up the Tin mines at Maye (--Economy, -Wealth, ++Wealth later)
Build up the Gold mines at Maye (-Economy, -Wealth, +++Wealth later)
Regional Improvements (Silfi Riverbank, Silfi Forestlands)
Send warriors to act as a more permanent deterrent in [region] (-Martial, +Stability, maybe reduces Rebellious Tributary a step)
*Force the Silfi to gather together in [region] (--Martial, -Stability, might increase or decrease Rebellious Tributary, converts a region into a city)
Expand the mine at the Silfi Riverbank Region (--Wealth, -Martial, might find more copper, +Regional Wealth)
Great Projects *Formalize Gadawa as the Seat of the Oracle by expanding the temple there. Such a complex will attract many sages and learned men, possibly from very far away. (---Wealth, counts as two projects, begins the Great Temple early wonder)
*Consult the priests for a more thorough protection against the Death God, who brings Pestilences (-Wealth, Strengthens Faction, begins the Spiritual Protection project)
Temporarily suspend work on the Project (Currently Available) (+Economy, ++Wealth, gain an additional action, ???)
Put even more men to work at the Palace (--Economy, -Wealth, does an extra step check for the Palace Project)
Now that the Project has entered it's construction stage, you can suspend work on the Palace project on rare occasions as needed. Be aware that using it too many times, or more than when it's availability is refreshed, will confer a strong chance for the project to go defunct every turn it's been suspended.
[] [Designs] Adjust the plans to support a slightly different Palace Layout (Makes this stage take longer to complete, reverting to Stage One for a short adjustment, fortifies one of the countryside mines with the Palace Complex)
-[] The Tin mine
-[] The Gold mine
Would this choice mean the chosen mine becomes unavailable due to becoming part of the structure of the palace, or that it becomes a usable part of the Palace Complex?
Would this choice mean the chosen mine becomes unavailable due to becoming part of the structure of the palace, or that it becomes a usable part of the Palace Complex?
[] [Disease] Obey the Priests and Oracle. Ritualistic washing will be greatly expanded upon, as well as the use of salt, which carries the essence of the Sea and protects from curses such as disease. (Might work, will hurt wealth a bit)
Reminder that Ritualistic Washing came with the implication that copper was a tainted material that would attract evil spirits and get a person cursed.
More than the Wealth hit, this might be a larger cost to the Oracle's Salty Washing laws.
Reminder that Ritualistic Washing came with the implication that copper was a tainted material that would attract evil spirits and get a person cursed.
More than the Wealth hit, this might be a larger cost to the Oracle's Salty Washing laws.
The gold, because the update said the gold would run out sooner than the tin. Also depends on what the QM says about the Palace and the mine relationship. I don't know if the mine would be a foundation issue to the palace, or not. If it could become a foundation instability issue, I 'd have the palace and the gold mine combo. If the mine can't collapse eventually I'd go with the tin+palace combo.
If the mine can't produce anything unless we build the palace with the mine.... Tin, definitely tin.
Or we could just remake the plans to support a new position for the main palace complex.
[X] [Disease] Obey the Priests and Oracle. Ritualistic washing will be greatly expanded upon, as well as the use of salt, which carries the essence of the Sea and protects from curses such as disease. (Might work, will hurt wealth a bit)
[X] [Designs] Adjust the plans to support a slightly different Palace Layout (Makes this stage take longer to complete, reverting to Stage One for a short adjustment, fortifies one of the countryside mines with the Palace Complex)
-[X] The Tin mine
[X] Fortify [Dalwa] (-Wealth, -Stability, +Martial later, +Wealth later, removes a step of Troubled Times) [Anye, Dalwa]
[X] Hunt for Corruption (+/-Wealth, +/-Stability, Possibly remove a step of Troubled Times)
The Tin mine because it has more ores. The mine running dry seems like the sort of thing that could hit us in our Stability/Legitimacy(or worse, affect the people's faith in the palace project).
For actions, I am assuming two for now. If we only have a single action, consider them approval voting.
Warriors Upriver means Stability goes up and while fortifying a city costs us Wealth and Stability, it also generates Wealth and removes a Stability malus, making it pay for itself.
Fortifying a city is a viable alternative to hunting corruption. It provides more of a guarantee that we will get more Wealth and that Troubled Times will go down a step. But it also guarantees a Stability cost whereas hunting for Corruption might end up giving us Stability.
Plus, a plague seems like a bad time to raise taxes.
It was not a "this option stinks" statement.
It was a "this option might look alluring on the face of it but its downsides are just as bad as the other two options when you consider what the Oracle's laws on washing actually entail."
Personally? I think I'll pair the local authorities with a hunt for Corruption. Might be risky if we take a stabhit, fail to reduce troubled times and get the increase, but "the King tried to make sure the local leaders did not try to abuse their new powers" seems like a good narrative with strong internal synergy. And potentially a good setup for removing local enforcement rights(by the sword if need be) next turn.
Copper being Unclean as a spiritual value seems like the sort of thing that might cause a morale penalty when using copper(or alloys with copper in them). It's an option, but it might interfere with our desires for Empire. At least until the Iron age(or until we lose/evolve the value away from hating Copper).
