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The Passing of Beautiful Histories (Civ Quest)

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Very nice, @Qeqre. Quality suppositions all-around, for the most part. There's huge potential for unique interactions between the different laws, far beyond what you've guessed at, but it would take a ton of effort to try to qualify all of them.

This is also effectively what I'm using to finally decide where on the map I'm pinning Mayep. There's a few geographical areas I've been considering, and depending on the outcome you have I'll finally narrow it down to one.
 
[X] Plan – The best Communist Country!
-[X] [Laws] The King counsels that all laws on the conduct of men be used. (the basics, hierarchy restrictions, and highly ritualized lifestyle/social laws - social conduct with others, formal interaction rules, etc.)
-[X] [Punishment] The King counsels the Retributive rules on punishment.
-[X] [Disputes] The King counsels His Word alone settle disputes between men.
-[X] [Enforcement] The King lays the responsibility of enforcement on the Leaders of cities.
-[X] [Land] The King counsels that all Land is His.
-[X] [Food] The King counsels that all food is the Kingdom's property to distribute accordingly.
-[X] [Taxes] The King counsels that a coin must be paid to the King per head of all his living subjects.
 
[X] Plan: Stratocracy
- [X] [Laws] The King counsels that all laws on the conduct of men be used. (the basics, hierarchy restrictions, and highly ritualized lifestyle/social laws - social conduct with others, formal interaction rules, etc.)
- [X] [Punishment] The King counsels the Retributive rules on punishment.
- [X] [Disputes] The King counsels the One Person most responsible for the disputing men settle their disputes.
- [X] [Enforcement] The King gives free reign to the Warriors and Armies to enforce all moral laws as they see fit.
- [X] [Land] The King counsels that Land may only belong to those who have offered themselves to the Armies.
- [X] [Taxes] The King counsels that Leaders of cities must tribute a tax in coin proportional to the warriors that protect them.

All hail the Army with a State!
 
[X] Plan King's Dominion

Warrior tax would need adding to later but thats safer than a poll tax(which requires a census and would encourage ways to cheat the census)
 
[X] Plan Winging It
-[X] [Laws] The King counsels that the moral and sensible laws be used. (the basics AND some hierarchical behavior restrictions - prevents some abuses, etc.)
-[X] [Punishment] The King counsels the more Forgiving rules on punishment.
-[X] [Disputes] The King counsels the One Person most responsible for the disputing men settle their disputes.
-[X] [Land] The King counsels that Land can belong to anyone who pays tax for it's protection from foreigners.
-[X] [Food] The King counsels that all food is private property that is taxed to the Granaries.
-[X] [Taxes] The King counsels that Leaders of cities must tribute a tax in coin proportional to the warriors that protect them.
 
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It's pretty much a foregone conclusion here, but I have a midterm tomorrow, so I'll skip the majority of the fluff and get to the social effects bits, filling in fluff later.

[X] Plan King's Dominion
-[X] [Laws] The King counsels that the moral and sensible laws be used. (the basics AND some hierarchical behavior restrictions - prevents some abuses, etc.)
-[X] [Punishment] The King counsels the Retributive rules on punishment.
-[X] [Disputes] The King counsels His Word alone settle disputes between men.
-[X] [Enforcement] The King lays the responsibility of enforcement on the Leaders of cities.
-[X] [Land] The King counsels that all Land is His.
-[X] [Food] The King counsels that all food is private property that is taxed to the Granaries.
-[X] [Taxes] The King counsels that Leaders of cities must tribute a tax in coin proportional to the warriors that protect them.

General stability of the plan: balanced laws/punishment. While the king settles disputes, enforcement (and summary punishment) is left in other hands, which meshes a little oddly
-King's just stuck with people constantly approaching him/sending requests for clarifications or verdicts?
-King does some kind of rudimentary legal code as precedents establish themselves?
-Local authority takes matters into their own hands, causes problems?
Direct land ownership with private work, early modified serfdom model as product never outpaces taxes?
Potential for a more enlightened system (benign neglect)?
-Tax interaction with local enforcement will lead to some issues regarding the independent attitudes of cities, almost guaranteed.
...
...
General combination of laws is immensely unfavorable to local authority figures (only benefit from local enforcement allowance) on the back of a few major city leaders recently stumbling across having exorbitant and ridiculous personal powers, that's going to piss them all off quite a lot. Possible economic(the wealth kind) failure for Maye and revolt (basically everywhere except Gadawa, which specifically has a military garrison led by members of the royal line as the local government).

Local enforcement combined with (Unfavorable Local Authority) management laws will lead to most powerful-unfavorable laws being selectively enforced or unenforced entirely. Effectively cancels any benefit from the law/punishment combination outside of Maye itself.

High personal workload due to dispute management choice combined with any combination of law/punishment that doesn't include either Draconian measures or ALL conduct rules to make interaction more rigid and less prone to tricky disputes (or tricky verdicts). Lose a turn action, potentially for a while, while legal precedent becomes established.

Military city improvements are possibly a dead action branch, too much local interference and wild upset at using them when the nation has supremacy. Only potential to still perform the action is through the claim of direct ownership of the crown - military improvements almost universally reduce stability during peacetime alongside a strong current position of individual cities.

Local enforcement/lack of private ownership/personal dispute management means any authority can claim just about anything away from the crown regarding taxation unless a bureaucratic system can crop up very quickly, and any request for clemency from the King is unlikely to even be heard, if it even goes fairly. Very likely to lead to exploitation of the working classes into indentured servitude or serfdom.

Farm tax plus local enforcement and angry local leaders means high corruption and book-cooking, especially with the aggressive specialization of food-growing regions. Extremely likely to lead to massive losses of Econ income.

About the only stopgap to prevent incredible and egregious abuse by local authorities is the King's sole management of disputes. If you're lucky it could lead to a very, very large number of leadership positions spontaneously finding themselves empty and in need of centralized bureaucratic replacements, which would be less prone to most of the above abuses.


Overall stability - extremely shaky, areas of greatest upset are exacerbated by the allowance of local law enforcement rather than centrally-loyal enforcement. Chance that everything in the air falls in a good setup is very low, with dangerously high chances of most cities breaking away (or outright revolting) as they get their own 'local' warriors set up.

Assuming things fall favorably enough to win should the situation blow up, or the situation becomes more controlled very quickly, Local Enforcement will likely be thrown out in favor of more centrally-loyal local garrison officers.


---

All said... You could have done quite a bit worse. One element has a ridiculous amount of anti-synergy with other elements, primarily because all of those other elements exist simultaneously and a completely random event from last turn are making it so bad, but that anti-synergy is so obvious that when you make it out the other side of the madness you're about to see it will be rather viciously excised, and the end result will be very stable and centralized.

Aaaand... there is enough institutional awareness of the rot to see it as an issue in need of correction, not to mention things are still holding together for now. Fairly lucky, IMO a de-escalation is still on the table here.
 
Clearly the best plan was "Plan: Stratocracy." Society needs a fist of copper and bronze to enforce law and order in such horrific times :p
 
Powerofmind said:
General combination of laws is immensely unfavorable to local authority figures (only benefit from local enforcement allowance) on the back of a few major city leaders recently stumbling across having exorbitant and ridiculous personal powers, that's going to piss them all off quite a lot. Possible economic(the wealth kind) failure for Maye and revolt (basically everywhere except Gadawa, which specifically has a military garrison led by members of the royal line as the local government).

Local enforcement combined with (Unfavorable Local Authority) management laws will lead to most powerful-unfavorable laws being selectively enforced or unenforced entirely. Effectively cancels any benefit from the law/punishment combination outside of Maye itself.
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So what I'm hearing here is that we need to do a lot more
Fortify[city]
actions and have a unitary state?

Powerofmind said:
Military city improvements are possibly a dead action branch, too much local interference and wild upset at using them when the nation has supremacy. Only potential to still perform the action is through the claim of direct ownership of the crown - military improvements almost universally reduce stability during peacetime alongside a strong current position of individual cities.
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No fortfiy[city]? Fuck.

Hrm, @Powerofmind is the reason Military Improvements reduce stability because military improvements essentially increase the power of the Monarchy when centralized and decrease it when decentralized?
Powerofmind said:
Local enforcement/lack of private ownership/personal dispute management means any authority can claim just about anything away from the crown regarding taxation unless a bureaucratic system can crop up very quickly, and any request for clemency from the King is unlikely to even be heard, if it even goes fairly. Very likely to lead to exploitation of the working classes into indentured servitude or serfdom.
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Hum. So we need to accelerate the Palace and shore up the King's authority before we build local fortifications.

Powerofmind said:
About the only stopgap to prevent incredible and egregious abuse by local authorities is the King's sole management of disputes. If you're lucky it could lead to a very, very large number of leadership positions spontaneously finding themselves empty and in need of centralized bureaucratic replacements, which would be less prone to most of the above abuses.
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Hrm. So the military might've been the better choice for Enforcement with my combo. At least if we don't manage to get a civil war and/or build up our Martial.
Although that in turn could have fucked us up with how weak our military currently is.
Powerofmind said:
Overall stability - extremely shaky, areas of greatest upset are exacerbated by the allowance of local law enforcement rather than centrally-loyal enforcement. Chance that everything in the air falls in a good setup is very low, with dangerously high chances of most cities breaking away (or outright revolting) as they get their own 'local' warriors set up.

Assuming things fall favorably enough to win should the situation blow up, or the situation becomes more controlled very quickly, Local Enforcement will likely be thrown out in favor of more centrally-loyal local garrison officers.
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So, rush Martial harder?
 
PyrrosWarrior said:
Clearly the best plan was "Plan: Stratocracy." Society needs a fist of copper and bronze to enforce law and order in such horrific times :p
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Hmm... the most annoying set of formal interaction rules, distributed legal judgement, aggressively military...

It would have been stable, but it would prompt a sort of warmongering attitude. Higher officers would get pissy if there wasn't enough land for them to retire onto, and the only solution to that would be claiming more of it. It would have been a fairly Roman approach to empire, but at the same time, the restrictive rules on interaction would force them to be more... cultured... considering? It would do some weird things to the base model.

It would be stable for the most part, but the stronger the military is in that model, the harder it is to restrain them.
Qeqre said:
So what I'm hearing here is that we need to do a lot more
Fortify[city]
actions and have a unitary state?


No fortfiy[city]? Fuck.

Hrm, @Powerofmind is the reason Military Improvements reduce stability because military improvements essentially increase the power of the Monarchy when centralized and decrease it when decentralized?

Hum. So we need to accelerate the Palace and shore up the King's authority before we build local fortifications.


Hrm. So the military might've been the better choice for Enforcement with my combo. At least if we don't manage to get a civil war and/or build up our Martial.
Although that in turn could have fucked us up with how weak our military currently is.

So, rush Martial harder?
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You can fortify, but it won't be met with smiles. It's actually because the local leadership is raising a stink; you can raise taxes just by adding more soldiers to their tab completely out of their control. They wouldn't be so pissy if they had... anything else to feel good about in the new legal system.

And... yeah it probably would have been better to simply accept that last centralizing influence rather than allow locals to do their own enforcement.
 
Powerofmind said:
You can fortify, but it won't be met with smiles. It's actually because the local leadership is raising a stink; you can raise taxes just by adding more soldiers to their tab completely out of their control. They wouldn't be so pissy if they had... anything else to feel good about in the new legal system.

And... yeah it probably would have been better to simply accept that last centralizing influence rather than allow locals to do their own enforcement.
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I thought army enforcement of laws paired with the taxes might've spurred local warlordism and military independence from the crown really. The split was somewhat intended to more strongly favour central authority by hamstringing the power of both the military faction and noble/administrative faction.
Plus, military enforcement didn't seem particularly popular at the time.

Also:
Powerofmind said:
Direct land ownership with private work, early modified serfdom model as product never outpaces taxes?
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Powerofmind said:
Farm tax plus local enforcement and angry local leaders means high corruption and book-cooking, especially with the aggressive specialization of food-growing regions. Extremely likely to lead to massive losses of Econ income.
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IIRC what happened in historic European serfdom was that the Serfs generally lacked the resources to invest in better tools(because their productivity wasn't great) and the Nobles didn't have a reason to invest in better tools for the Serfs because better Serf productivity didn't increase their tax revenue(because taxes were measured by the size of the land alotted to the serf and in the length of time a serf had to work on the land of their liege).

Is our serfdom model relatively innovative beyond finding new ways to avoid tax collection? Or is it more stagnant?
 
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Qeqre said:
I thought army enforcement of laws paired with the taxes might've spurred local warlordism and military independence from the crown really. The split was somewhat intended to more strongly favour central authority by hamstringing the power of both the military faction and noble/administrative faction.
Plus, military enforcement didn't seem particularly popular at the time.

Also:


IIRC what happened in historic European serfdom was that the Serfs generally lacked the resources to invest in better tools(because their productivity wasn't great) and the Nobles didn't have a reason to invest in better tools for the Serfs because better Serf productivity didn't increase their tax revenue(because taxes were measured by the size of the land alotted to the serf and in the length of time a serf had to work on the land of their liege).

Is our serfdom model relatively innovative beyond finding new ways to avoid tax collection? Or is it more stagnant?
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It hamstrung the local leaders, but it left them with one tool they could repeatedly use to walk-around most of the restrictions you put on them. Your armies would have actually been significantly safer to empower, since they're all nominally led by members of royal blood (who, while they do have some palace politics going on, are much more sedate thanks to the external election system). It probably wouldn't have been so bad if you had more garrisons already, or if coinage didn't suddenly make Anye very strong (though, good thing you didn't have walls, or they'd have made it even worse).

Your serfdom model still hasn't settled the actual method of taxation, but it's going to be less fun for less productive regions (since things are being calculated based on the average/better lands around Gadawa and Dalwa). The only reason it might devolve into serfdom right now is if the local leaders aren't replaced and they get the chance to force people 'into debt' in terms of the food they 'owe' to the granaries.

It's closer to indentured servitude than feudal serfdom... which is arguably worse.
 
Ghostdevil said:
I see... Well humans learn best by mistakes! Both for us and for our Civ, they'll learn new things through this difficulty.
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Civ quests are constantly moving eras, so what was a stupid idea that fucked everything up three generations ago is the exact needed cure five generations later.

And you'd be wrestling with the ideologists the whole way
 
Powerofmind said:
It hamstrung the local leaders, but it left them with one tool they could repeatedly use to walk-around most of the restrictions you put on them. Your armies would have actually been significantly safer to empower, since they're all nominally led by members of royal blood (who, while they do have some palace politics going on, are much more sedate thanks to the external election system). It probably wouldn't have been so bad if you had more garrisons already, or if coinage didn't suddenly make Anye very strong (though, good thing you didn't have walls, or they'd have made it even worse).

Your serfdom model still hasn't settled the actual method of taxation, but it's going to be less fun for less productive regions (since things are being calculated based on the average/better lands around Gadawa and Dalwa). The only reason it might devolve into serfdom right now is if the local leaders aren't replaced and they get the chance to force people 'into debt' in terms of the food they 'owe' to the granaries.

It's closer to indentured servitude than feudal serfdom... which is arguably worse.
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Early (non-chattel)slave plantations. Neat.
Wonder if the "in debt to our granaries" excuse will get wrangled into enslaving foreign tribes who didn't pay tribute. "All land belongs to our King, including yours. Settling it and farming makes you a thief in debt to the Mayep." or something like that.

...we really should have asked/considered which people besides the King were in charge of the armies.

If it's calculated around the average productivity, we might want to settle another agriculturally unproductive region(or regions) along the coast. Reduce the average, make Gadawa/Dalwa more prosperous.
Given that the Econ loss is caused by corrupt local leadership, a garrison in Dalwa might significantly reduce the odds of econ losses too. More central oversight.
Maye itself is probably going to suffer, having neither Econ or Wealth income. But it is our capital city(meaning they have the best access to the King), it does receive tribute and we can still prospect the place for copper(or try to re-establish trade with the Alwethi)...

@Powerofmind is the city tax Econ-based or Wealth-based? Or does it depend on the specialization of the city?
 
Powerofmind said:
[X] Plan King's Dominion
-[X] [Laws] The King counsels that the moral and sensible laws be used. (the basics AND some hierarchical behavior restrictions - prevents some abuses, etc.)
-[X] [Punishment] The King counsels the Retributive rules on punishment.
-[X] [Disputes] The King counsels His Word alone settle disputes between men.
-[X] [Enforcement] The King lays the responsibility of enforcement on the Leaders of cities.
-[X] [Land] The King counsels that all Land is His.
-[X] [Food] The King counsels that all food is private property that is taxed to the Granaries.
-[X] [Taxes] The King counsels that Leaders of cities must tribute a tax in coin proportional to the warriors that protect them.
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If we had replaced the "[Disputes] The King counsels his Word alone settle disputes between men", with "[Disputes] The King counsels a Priests' Debate settle disputes between men.", would that have made things better, worse, or just as bad?
 
Qeqre said:
Early (non-chattel)slave plantations. Neat.
Wonder if the "in debt to our granaries" excuse will get wrangled into enslaving foreign tribes who didn't pay tribute. "All land belongs to our King, including yours. Settling it and farming makes you a thief in debt to the Mayep." or something like that.

...we really should have asked/considered which people besides the King were in charge of the armies.

If it's calculated around the average productivity, we might want to settle another agriculturally unproductive region(or regions) along the coast. Reduce the average, make Gadawa/Dalwa more prosperous.
Given that the Econ loss is caused by corrupt local leadership, a garrison in Dalwa might significantly reduce the odds of econ losses too. More central oversight.
Maye itself is probably going to suffer, having neither Econ or Wealth income. But it is our capital city(meaning they have the best access to the King), it does receive tribute and we can still prospect the place for copper(or try to re-establish trade with the Alwethi)...

@Powerofmind is the city tax Econ-based or Wealth-based? Or does it depend on the specialization of the city?
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It's unlikely. Your religious base hasn't quite pinged onto MANIFEST ALL THE DESTINY, so that sort of imperial ambition isn't a thing.

The actual tax is conducted that way, but local collectors are almost certainly taking more than they should (likely claiming coin as collateral if the farmers don't have the harvests to keep up with it, and subsequently figuring out how to claim they 'still owe' without having paid in full). That's where it might turn into debt slavery, which, with the right touches, is basically restrictive serfdom.

The city tax is Wealth-oriented, it's specifically in coin, but the use of coin has spread rather fast, so it wouldn't actually have been an issue.

At present, a man can buy/reserve nearly a week's worth of grain for a single Inna (copper piece of good, testable purity, of a semi-standardized size and weight), and is likely to see in the realm of a dozen a month for his work (farmers' cash crops vary wildly, a little more than average for artisan sellers and barge teams moving goods around, a LOT more for exotics merchants).

Money generally finds it's way to city leaders (and thus the king) by way of restitution punishments (damages) or the local purchase of government services (like staple foods). Currency is fluid at the moment since the Mint wasn't chosen, so forges are often paid a bit of coin (or a stack of food, in a farmer's case) to have money melted down for tools, or vice-versa. The value standard for copper currency is basically it's capacity to be converted into practical objects and it's rough value in comparison to food.
Marlin said:
If we had replaced the "[Disputes] The King counsels his Word alone settle disputes between men", with "[Disputes] The King counsels a Priests' Debate settle disputes between men.", would that have made things better, worse, or just as bad?
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It would have been easier for you directly, and the overall stability if things didn't blow up would be better, since grievances would be managed by a more ubiquitous group of people with a penchant for philosophy and moral debate, but it also probably would be more likely to explode since the priests would be getting involved and pulling the king into matters if the local leaders used their enforcers to stonewall fair proceedings to their favor.

It also would have been harder to see the problem for what it is, since the priests would try to avoid going to the king with every little verdict (it would be silly to bother), and problem patterns wouldn't be recognized as fast.

The dispute management choice specifically has powerful effects on the visibility of corrupt influences for you as players. Whoever else you empowered with it would be placated/empowered and less able to notice systemic corruption, while empowering yourself would hurt you on actions, but also enhance your ability to deal with ongoing systemic issues.
 
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Plans Laid
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    • While all of the legal efforts were going on in the background, Omon was finding that it had a peculiar effect on how he went about planning the Palace for the King and royal family. Namely, he suddenly found himself very busy, and having a number of design choices for his abode that would dramatically enhance the effectiveness of the new laws, or head off potential problems before they had a chance to ferment.

    Of course... there was always the temptation for grandiose displays. The increasingly haughty Head Men from Dalwa and Anye were making their own personal estates increasingly elaborate and fine, and the almost-petty desire to show off the comparative power of the King with opulence was strong.

    The size of the palace will affect it's time to completion, and Project Resource Demands, but allow more to go on within. Bigger palaces make the royal family happier
    [] [Slots] The Palace should be enormous, a testament to the longevity of the Kingdom and a center for all matters of state. (4 slots)
    [] [Slots] The Palace should be large, able to handle a good deal of state business by itself. (3 slots)
    [] [Slots] The Palace should only be large enough to manage a few critical aspects of bureaucracy. (2 slots)

    Choose a full complement of possible palace improvements, planned with the size of the palace in mind
    Using extra slots enhances the quality of the improvement
    [] Royal Library (up to 2) (Might upset or please the Priest Faction)
    - Filled with scrolls and scribes, it would serve as a central gathering place for the knowledge of the sages and Oracles, as well as records useful to the King.

    [] Treasury (Extra -Wealth) (up to 2) (Will upset the Merchant Faction)
    - A vault and official Mint. Along with an official ban on the destruction or duplication of the Mint's specially stamped currency, this will provide the crown with a means to control the flow of goods in it's sphere of influence more finely, as well as a guaranteed ready source of funds in any situation.

    [] Armory (Extra -Wealth) (up to 2) (Pleases Military Faction)
    - A place where the finest blacksmiths craft the finest weapons for the finest warriors in the kingdom.

    [] Barracks Complex (up to 2) (Pleases Military Faction)
    - An array of services and yards useful for training, housing, and supplying the royal retinues.

    [] Fortifications (up to 2) (Pleases Military Faction)
    - Walls of stone, towers with the most powerful ranged weapons available, and imposing gates, all to make the palace a force to be reckoned with. Also supports extra housing for more warriors to man the fortifications.

    [] Gardens and Grounds (up to 2) (Pleases Royal Family)
    - Increasingly beautiful and expansive palace grounds, providing places for contemplation and sources of rare plants and herbs alike.

    [] Grand Court (up to 3) (Pleases All Faction Leaders and Royal Family)
    - Expands the plans for King's Chambers, separating it into specialized halls for petitioners, visiting dignitaries, and daily business, and greatly expanding the areas reserved for boarding bureaucrats to include petitioners' quarters, state rooms, and more specialized record-keeping libraries.

    [] The Grand Construction (Requires enormous palace, uses all slots) (Lots of extra costs) (Significant extra time commitment) (Awes Everyone?)
    - Converts the whole of the city of Maye into the palace of the King, where all is his domain. The streets will be perfectly ordered according to astrological signs and mystical symbols of power, fountains and gardens and parks will abound, the houses and different work sections will be neatly rowed and their tenants carefully pruned to ensure no space is wasted, no mouth unfed, and every aspect of life in Maye will support the function and prestige of the Kingdom as a whole, from the highest advisor to the lowest public workers. Maye will be the crown jewel of the world.

    AN: With the onset of a proper legal system, several distinct factions are rising to power.
    -The Royal Family represents the pool that the Priest Faction chooses Princes from, and while it is closely tied to the Military Faction, there is enough separation that they are distinct. They tend to be high advisors and important bureaucrats, and like centralizing influences that increase their power.
    -The Military Faction represents the warriors, officers, and family of the Crown that are professional, career military. They naturally favor military expansion, as well as the addition of more regional garrisons as it gives the highest generals small 'kingdoms' to rule themselves as consolation for not being Prince or King.
    - The Priest Faction represents a swirl of philosophically distinct inner factions that abide by the same framework of belief. Typically, they defer to either the Oracle or the King for guidance in settling major arguments, but as a faction they have a great deal of power over the general populace, and are often the most well-educated scholars.
    -The Merchant Faction is very new, and represents the most powerful cadres of exotic and local traders and the most in-demand artisan producers. They are often the enterprising and fortunate from working or artisan-class families from Anye, and as such often let their new station and power go to their heads. They are very reactionary, and, barring rare exceptions, can effectively be treated as disinherited Royals; they delight in exercising powers, and despise having it taken away.
    -The Landowners have been utterly broken in the wake of the new laws on land ownership, and are defunct.
     
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