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The Morrsley Village Experiment

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RaptorusMaximus said:
Thanks guys. I'll...think about it. But I don't think I'm really cut out for this type of game. I mean...what useful data have I contributed so far? The social/reading thing isn't a strong suit of mine.
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In the same boat as you.

And can we just calm down for a moment? We'll come no closer to figuring out who scum is if we just sling mud at each other.
 
OneStopChopShop said:
In the same boat as you.

And can we just calm down for a moment? We'll come no closer to figuring out who scum is if we just sling mud at each other.
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This is a really aberrant game. Normally, the person under suspicion puts up a fight. If they have team mates they try to provide a smoke screen or lie about their motives, and you can get further information by seeing who backs what play and who confirms someone else's claims and look for inconsistencies.

The target of the lynch not fighting back throws a wrench into things, so we're stuck arguing about how exactly to handle the lynch when the decision is pretty much made.

I really recommend sticking with it for a while longer, at least for the rest of this game. Hopefully the next scum will be a wriggler.
 
I'm sorry for going on about this at such length all. I'll try to let it drop and let @Nictis have the last word. I think enough has been said (and then some) for everybody to make up their minds.

If somebody wants to ask something I'll reply. Otherwise I'll shut up and hopefully some actual scumhunting can happen before EoD.
 
I'm not just gonna leave this game before it ends. I'm not a dick. But I'm not sure if I'll be coming back for another one. at least not for a little while.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by mesonoxian on Jan 21, 2020 at 11:14 PM, finished with 845 posts and 12 votes.
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Shadell said:
o I'd like to suggest that Cyri remains suspect over the reasons stated and that Hybrid looks increasingly like they just jumping on every likely wagon immediately, which is worth more scrutiny.
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Cyricubed said:
And while we're here can you or anyone give me a reason I'm scum beyond me refusing to view wincon hinting as a valid scumhunt strategy and unwilling to "prove" myself with it. Because if you can't then expect a half-assed and pissed off defense in return.
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mesonoxian said:
4. This is a misrepresentation. I said agreeing to this plan could cost us the game. Remember, there were only 13 players. Now we're down to ten, presumably 7 town and 3 scum. If we mislynch and you don't follow through on your plan, (whether because you mean to betray us or because you missed a scum ruleblocker or jailer or you are wrong about the set up) then we are at seven, 4 town and 3 scum. At that point, one town player voting another (a real possibility with new players) leaves us open to a scum backed hammer.

5. This is a misrepresentation. I said we're likely to mislynch. And I still think we are. Right now the top lynch picks are some low content new players a Cyri, with strong disagreement about whether any of them have seemed scummy or not.
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4 is fair, but not anything that you've actually clarified on before this point.
5 is false. You have said that it was a guaranteed mislynch.
mesonoxian said:
If lynching Rosen today is so obviously antitown and destined to kill town power roles, why were you so willing to lynch Rosen tomorrow, when surely the same issues apply. why wouldn't the SK just have targeted me or you or Cyri and leave the town PRs alone until Night 3 when we'd have lynched Rosen. That is why it worried me. This went from a "hey, maybe this we be cool if we did this for a night" to "why do you want town PRs to be lynched!?!?!" when you encountered resistance.
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I'm willing to have Rosen die whenever, I have been saying that I'd prefer we keep Rosen alive long enough to actually remove whoever would replace him if he was Mafia, and that if he was shown to be the Serial Killer then that we would lynch him tomorrow and I'd go back to finding the other killer.

You're saying that it was suspicious that I got more intense when... You started calling my plan bad for reasons that were bad. Like how there was no way to check if I was actually doing what I am saying I am doing, or that maybe I'm just not a roleblocker, or that we have no reason to believe that Rosen is actually a killer. Reasons like that have me questioning what the actual reason is, and when the result is "This lets scum kill power roles" I'm going to call it out as letting scum kill power roles. I've been trying to explain it, and I've been fighting down the instinct to just call you scum and be done with it. Because your plan, in the situation that I am seeing, is scummy. It's giving scum the chance they need to make an impact.
mesonoxian said:
And here is the problem with your notion that you won't be targeted because they have to kill the Gunsmith: Let's say you are right about everything and honest about your intentions, and your plan works. You suggest the SK absolutely must try to kill one of the Town PRs tonight. I don't think that's so. Let's say they do. They'd want to kill the watcher first. Of course, they likely have any investigative or protective roles that exist on them, but let's ignore that and presume it works. Then, assuming they survive, they'd kill Shadell the next night. So your plan, if it works like you expect, buys Shadell one night to do investigation.
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They have to kill the Watcher first, and the likelihood of there being any protective roles other than that one is fairly slim. They can't afford not to kill the Gunsmith, but in order to kill the Gunsmith they need to kill the Watcher. Any other action will let Town confirm everyone it needs to in order to kill them through process of elimination alone.
mesonoxian said:
But here's an alternate plan. The SK kills you. Let's again assume you're right and your roleblock works for the night and stops a kill. The next night there are two night kills. They kill Shadell and IH. Except this way, the the scum are back to two night kills. So this route nets them three kills over the two nights, and reduces the chances of getting blocked by protectives or spotted by watchers. (Since the mafia are taking half the risk).
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So, three points I'd like to say here.
The first is that I hadn't considered this.
The second is that if I die, Rosen is going to be lynched unless if Shadell found the killer.
The third is that, to borrow your own reasoning, they might double up on their kill target by mistake.

So if Rosen is the SK, then killing me doesn't help the Mafia avoid getting checked by the Gunsmith.
If Rosen is Mafia, then... Yeah, you got it there.

But as a counterpoint... Shadell checking even one of the unknowns will narrow the PoE such that the SK cannot win. If we lynch one, and another is checked, we'll be going into Day 3 with at worst a 50/50 chance of lynching the killer.
mesonoxian said:
I actually think Rosen as SK makes a lot of sense. It would explain the loss of interest in the game upon being cornered. If you have no team mates who can argue on your behalf or who you can coordinate with, there is little reason to stay invested. Whereas someone with teammates is more likely to stick around to help set them up. If that is the case, there is a significant chance he might be a Strongman. At which point your plan lets the scum kill both PRs when a lynch would save one of them.
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Except Strongman doesn't ignore roleblockers? Strongman ignores doctors and bulletproof.

mesonoxian said:
I'm sorry for going on about this at such length all. I'll try to let it drop and let @Nictis have the last word. I think enough has been said (and then some) for everybody to make up their minds.
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Alright, yeah. Didn't want to delete the response I was making, but yeah. About time to drop it.
 
Cyricubed said:
I mean barring a counter-claim we could very well mark nictis as the roleblocker. Also You're giving me the impression you want day to end early. I agree with a Rosen lynch however I want more discussion and input from lurkers.
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TBH, I thought it was ending a few hours ago. I definitely agree an early hammer is bad.

Also, missed this:
Cyricubed said:
And while we're here can you or anyone give me a reason I'm scum beyond me refusing to view wincon hinting as a valid scumhunt strategy and unwilling to "prove" myself with it. Because if you can't then expect a half-assed and pissed off defense in return.
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You've asserted this is ineffective, but the only actual counterargument I've seen (and I'll admit I've skimmed a bit of the Nictis/Meso back and forth, so apologies if I missed something posted today) was a reason why passing the test doesn't mean you're not scum, not why failing it doesn't mean you likely aren't town. Like, hell, people used this tactic on me initially. I spent most of D1 trying to show why I don't think it's effective, especially that early. I share the distaste here. However, none of these reasons are actually helpful in the specific circumstance of you clearly failing to spot the tell. You've pointed out, correctly, that scum might have this info, but what you seem to be claiming is to be town and not have gotten it persistently.

Additionally, you've claimed town, but each and every element of that claim came after the information was public, which makes it NAI at best, and absolutely a bit scummy.

Lastly, and this is circumstantial, I scumread Rosen off the notion that Rosen was playing deliberately to pull pressure off you. This turned out to give me (especially if Nictis is right) fairly low odds of snagging actual scum.
 
Nictis said:
4 is fair, but not anything that you've actually clarified on before this point.
5 is false. You have said that it was a guaranteed mislynch.

I'm willing to have Rosen die whenever, I have been saying that I'd prefer we keep Rosen alive long enough to actually remove whoever would replace him if he was Mafia, and that if he was shown to be the Serial Killer then that we would lynch him tomorrow and I'd go back to finding the other killer.

You're saying that it was suspicious that I got more intense when... You started calling my plan bad for reasons that were bad. Like how there was no way to check if I was actually doing what I am saying I am doing, or that maybe I'm just not a roleblocker, or that we have no reason to believe that Rosen is actually a killer. Reasons like that have me questioning what the actual reason is, and when the result is "This lets scum kill power roles" I'm going to call it out as letting scum kill power roles. I've been trying to explain it, and I've been fighting down the instinct to just call you scum and be done with it. Because your plan, in the situation that I am seeing, is scummy. It's giving scum the chance they need to make an impact.

They have to kill the Watcher first, and the likelihood of there being any protective roles other than that one is fairly slim. They can't afford not to kill the Gunsmith, but in order to kill the Gunsmith they need to kill the Watcher. Any other action will let Town confirm everyone it needs to in order to kill them through process of elimination alone.

So, three points I'd like to say here.
The first is that I hadn't considered this.
The second is that if I die, Rosen is going to be lynched unless if Shadell found the killer.
The third is that, to borrow your own reasoning, they might double up on their kill target by mistake.

So if Rosen is the SK, then killing me doesn't help the Mafia avoid getting checked by the Gunsmith.
If Rosen is Mafia, then... Yeah, you got it there.

But as a counterpoint... Shadell checking even one of the unknowns will narrow the PoE such that the SK cannot win. If we lynch one, and another is checked, we'll be going into Day 3 with at worst a 50/50 chance of lynching the killer.

Except Strongman doesn't ignore roleblockers? Strongman ignores doctors and bulletproof.


Alright, yeah. Didn't want to delete the response I was making, but yeah. About time to drop it.
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I don't want to continue the argument, but I do want to explain one thing and ask for clarification on something else:

The explanation: The "guaranteed mislynch" was a scenario where you were one of the scum. At which point we'd have no chance of accurately scumhunting, since we'd be taking for granted you were town. We wouldn't be guaranteed a mislynch if you were town, though I still worry one is likely.

The miscommunication is on me. I think this discussion would have been a lot less acrimonious if I hadn't conducted so much of it from my phone, meaning I was reluctant to edit or explain myself in too great detail. Sorry about that.

The clarification is on Strongmen.

The mafiascum wiki says as follows:
"Strongman is a role modifier that signifies that any kills performed by this player cannot be blocked by any means - neither by Bulletproof, nor by Doctor or other protective roles, nor by Roleblocks. It is, however, trumped by roles that prevent the victim from being targeted at all, namely Commuter and Hider. "

So are you sure that a strongman couldn't kill through a roleblock? (This is a sincere question, not rhetorical).
 
Shadell said:
TBH, I thought it was ending a few hours ago. I definitely agree an early hammer is bad.

Also, missed this:


You've asserted this is ineffective, but the only actual counterargument I've seen (and I'll admit I've skimmed a bit of the Nictis/Meso back and forth, so apologies if I missed something posted today) was a reason why passing the test doesn't mean you're not scum, not why failing it doesn't mean you likely aren't town. Like, hell, people used this tactic on me initially. I spent most of D1 trying to show why I don't think it's effective, especially that early. I share the distaste here. However, none of these reasons are actually helpful in the specific circumstance of you clearly failing to spot the tell. You've pointed out, correctly, that scum might have this info, but what you seem to be claiming is to be town and not have gotten it persistently.

Additionally, you've claimed town, but each and every element of that claim came after the information was public, which makes it NAI at best, and absolutely a bit scummy.

Lastly, and this is circumstantial, I scumread Rosen off the notion that Rosen was playing deliberately to pull pressure off you. This turned out to give me (especially if Nictis is right) fairly low odds of snagging actual scum.
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My rwo major reasons for scumreading @Cyricubed are the overzealous defense -Rosen made of them, and the suggestion that @InterstellarHobo give out the name of any other visitors he spotted last night, even though they would very likely be town PRs.
 
mesonoxian said:
I'm curious.
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Not really a smart idea to test. It was late and it both isn't a good idea and not worth.

mesonoxian said:
My rwo major reasons for scumreading @Cyricubed are the overzealous defense -Rosen made of them, and the suggestion that @InterstellarHobo give out the name of any other visitors he spotted last night, even though they would very likely be town PRs.
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For the 1st- Nothing I can do about this, I can say it was -Rosen trying to pocket me or trying to link me to them if they got caught as scum. Note that was a 1-sided defense, I never asked -Rosen to defend me and generally if I'm scum and start to see that, I ask my scummates to peel off as it links me too much. A couple people here can confirm that, especially you last game.

2. Yeah that's a fair observation. Again not my standard MO and I was viewing things from a mechanical standpoint, which I may add we have an impressive mechanical stand point after -Rosen's lynch with 2 scum left. And again, I hadn't realized roleblocker was actually in the game, I rescinded the strategy immediately following you pointing out that.

*Notes Chop's and Hybrids continued content absence*
 
Shadell said:
You've asserted this is ineffective, but the only actual counterargument I've seen (and I'll admit I've skimmed a bit of the Nictis/Meso back and forth, so apologies if I missed something posted today) was a reason why passing the test doesn't mean you're not scum, not why failing it doesn't mean you likely aren't town. Like, hell, people used this tactic on me initially. I spent most of D1 trying to show why I don't think it's effective, especially that early. I share the distaste here. However, none of these reasons are actually helpful in the specific circumstance of you clearly failing to spot the tell. You've pointed out, correctly, that scum might have this info, but what you seem to be claiming is to be town and not have gotten it persistently.
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That was me being rather angry. And yeah, I'm not going to just leak out information dishing out role-card info like candy. Nor am I going to engage with it. If you have a real reason for me being scum beyond something like that, I'd love to hear it, I can work with that and provide valid counter-arguments like with Meso above, for this? Sorry this is as much as your getting on this front.
 
Cyricubed said:
never asked -Rosen to defend me and generally if I'm scum and start to see that, I ask my scummates to peel off as it links me too much. A couple people here can confirm that, especially you last game.
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I forgot to add the Wine Caution there. Here's some cheese for your troubles.
 
mesonoxian said:
The mafiascum wiki says as follows:
"Strongman is a role modifier that signifies that any kills performed by this player cannot be blocked by any means - neither by Bulletproof, nor by Doctor or other protective roles, nor by Roleblocks. It is, however, trumped by roles that prevent the victim from being targeted at all, namely Commuter and Hider. "

So are you sure that a strongman couldn't kill through a roleblock? (This is a sincere question, not rhetorical).
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Less certain now, Strongman I've usually seen be specifically good for getting through protection, and I've generally seen it fail when roleblocked.
 
Nictis said:
Less certain now, Strongman I've usually seen be specifically good for getting through protection, and I've generally seen it fail when roleblocked.
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Do have to agree with this, two types of strongman really, One that breaks protections and One that breaks interference like RB's/Jails. I'd expect one that breaks RB's/Jails in this set-up however for an Sk.
 
I've made my vote and I'm not seeing any reason to change it, everything else has already been said so far
 
You know...honestly we're going in circles for the last 24 hours.

[X] Lynch -Rosen
 
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