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The Morrsley Village Experiment

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InterstellarHobo said:
We have this. It's been pointed out to you, though you could easily have missed it before. Even if you did miss it, you could certainly have asked the GM for clarification.
Are you sure your wincondition is still unclear?
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My win condition is very clear, except that it doesn't say if I need to be alive or not. The quote you're pulling could interpret either way on that, and IJW hasn't clarified it to me so I'm running with the assumption that I do need to be alive.
mesonoxian said:
Your claim about how the game works is based on the dead scum from Night One having the description "Backup". I don't know how you can say that isn't part of your reasoning. The whole basis of your plan is the idea that the scum team are one killer and a bunch of backups who inherit the kill power. You support this by saying IJW has used the same mechanic before. Beyond that, I see no reason to believe they can't select who has the kill. It is literally just "that guy was a back up" and "this other game was like that".
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Okay, so the issue here is that that is not what I am saying or have said.

Backups inherit powers that are lost on death. IE: Cop or Doctor.
A Mafia is defined as a group that has a kill that needs the Town dead.
A scum Backup is meant to keep other powers in play, so that if we were to lynch a Mafia Transporter for example, the Mafia doesn't lose that power.

The only situation where a Mafia loses the ability to kill when their killer dies is in a game that is very poorly constructed, and the only example I know of is Crystal Watcher's Magical Mafia.

A backup is not going to exist in a two person Mafia because at that point it is easier on both the GM and the Mafia to have the power that would be inherited just be a factional ability that either member can use.

My reasoning for them not being able to choose who to kill is because of a few things.
-It is the way that IJW has handled the Mafia previously. Citing that time I was Mafia in his game.
-Shadell is an Experimental Gunsmith, meaning that there's a fail condition. The simplest explanation is that not all the scum are immediately kill capable, which is a common mechanic for a lot of mafia games.
-It plays into my power and my win condition, which isn't exactly hard proof but does play a factor into my belief that that is how it works.

Three total scum is a really low number for the game size, so I'm assuming a more reasonable set of three mafia and an SK, which matches into the Backup role existing.
mesonoxian said:
Also, we have no proof Rosen has killed. We have evidence they didn't visit Shadell. That tells us SFA about where they actually were last night.
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This is where the thing called "Social Engineering" comes into play. If Rosen wasn't visiting a dead person, then he would have had no reason to lie about who he visited. He could have claimed Vigilante, or claimed to have been bodyguarding... Whoever it was he actually bodyguarded. Or he could have claimed to be a Bomb.

Instead he decided to claim that he was visiting Shadell, and was caught lying about it. And is kill capable. That all adds up to Rosen having killed someone.
mesonoxian said:
Or Rosen is a ninja miller bodyguard. My point is that there are a lot of assumptions here.
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Then they could have said so?

Like, in any game of Mafia you are going to have to make assumptions. The issue that I'm seeing is that you're trying to downplay what the obvious and easy answer is to just "Assumptions" in order to stop a plan you don't like, one that prevents Scum from killing both of the people that can find them.
mesonoxian said:
As for how this could cost us the game, there are currently 10 players. Let's presume there are two mafia and an SK left. We mislynch one today, that's 9. Two die over night, that's seven, now we've got three scum and four town come tomorrow. It isn't hard to see where we lose from there. Even worse is if you're just wrong, not lying. Because then we probably waste a lynch on you, meaning we lose another couple players before we have a chance of hitting scum.
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Okay, so. Let's actually make an order for this, like I've been trying and suggesting to do.

(Also, I note that you say three scum here, even though you've been arguing that there were three total)
(And that you continue to try and state that lynching me, when I'm scum, is a waste)

We lynch Rosen.
Assuming that I don't block one of the killers, both Shadell and Hobo are killed.
That leaves Hybrid, Raptor, Chop, Meso, Nictis, Narcotic, and Cyricubed alive.
Let's cut out Narcotic and Meso here as people not worth lynching, and we're left with the same people we could be lynching today. So it's the same choice we have to make, just with both Shadell and Hobo dead.

Alternatively:
We lynch one of Hybrid, Raptor, Chop, or Cyricubed. (The Uncertains)
I block Rosen, let's assume that a Vigilante does not kill Rosen here.
Either Shadell or Hobo survive. Let's say Shadell for simplicity.
Let's say we lynched Hybrid here. We go into the Day with Raptor, Chop, Meso, Nictis, Narcotic, Cyricubed, Rosen, and Shadell alive.
Rosen is known Scum and can be lynched at any time. Shadell can confirm another person to not be a Killer, let's say Cyricubed.
That leaves the Uncertains being Raptor and Chop, and the Non-Killers being Meso, Nictis, Narcotic, Shadell, and Cyricubed.

You can see how the noose slips tighter when we can keep one of the confirmed Town alive longer? Lynching Rosen now just means that we have to face the same lynch choice tomorrow, but with one less Town on our side, meanwhile lynching one of the people who are uncertain could kill Scum now, and potentially even remove the other kill entirely.

mesonoxian said:
And there is still the problem that the SK (or other scum if Rosen is SK) could just kill you. Then your roleblocking doesn't do anything and we lynched somebody who might or might not be scum instead of somebody who was definitely scum.
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Truthfully? They can't afford to really kill me. There's too many actual Town that they need to kill, and killing me would just raise the chances that they get caught by one of Shadell or Hobo.


TL:DR- Lynching Rosen now just lets the kill out and removes an additional Town Investigative tonight, and we'd still have to lynch one of the other people tomorrow.

InterstellarHobo: Town Watcher
Shadell: Town Experimental Gunsmith
ItzNarcotic: Not the Pink or Independent Killer.
mesonoxian: Probably Town by responses.
Hybrid: Unknown. (Slight Suspect)
Cyricubed: Unknown.
RaptorusMaximus: Unknown
OneStopChopShop: Unknown (Suspect by Day 2 response)
Nictis: Control Group Roleblocker
-Rosen: Killer.
 
I'm currently making a more in depth timeline to use as a reference.
RaptorusMaximus said:
Since yall are talking about lynching me, I'mma come out with my claim. I'm just a non-standard Test Subject with no special powers.
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That's not...
*sigh*

I do wish that there was more here so that the game could actually be played instead of us just mathing things out or having to rely on rolecard info. Sorry.
 
Nictis said:
I do wish that there was more here so that the game could actually be played instead of us just mathing things out or having to rely on rolecard info. Sorry.
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Idk what to say man. I'd just...rather not get strung up for not saying anything, since yall were talking about me being an 'unknown'. I'm still barely keeping track of what is even going on. Would you rather I not say anything?

...I feel like I'm not very good at this. Apologies.
 
I don't actually recall anyone talking about lynching you?
Like, maybe once in passing, but not any serious pushes.
 
RaptorusMaximus said:
Idk what to say man. I'd just...rather not get strung up for not saying anything, since yall were talking about me being an 'unknown'. I'm still barely keeping track of what is even going on. Would you rather I not say anything?

...I feel like I'm not very good at this. Apologies.
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Not trying to accuse you here, I'm just kinda frustrated that all you can really do here is roleclaim, because otherwise there's nothing to really do right now.

There should be more here to interact with, and I just can't see it.
 
Also, Nictis, I'm pretty sure you're reading that wrong.
You are not explicitly listed as needing to survive (I presume from your answers), and "If a requirement is not explicitly listed as part of your win condition then it is not required" seems to pretty unambiguously state that you are not required to survive.
 
InterstellarHobo said:
Also, Nictis, I'm pretty sure you're reading that wrong.
You are not explicitly listed as needing to survive (I presume from your answers), and "If a requirement is not explicitly listed as part of your win condition then it is not required" seems to pretty unambiguously state that you are not required to survive.
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Except for the second part.
I just write said:
There is no 'spirit of the agreement' or implied requirement in any of the win conditions for this game. If a requirement is not explicitly listed as part of your win condition then it is not required, except as far as practicality would dictate it making your actual win condition harder to achieve. That is all.
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Needing to still be alive would make my win condition harder to get.
 
RaptorusMaximus said:
It was more Nictis talking about me being one of the few 'unknowns' left and thus a prime candidate for Lynching. Or at least that's how I interpreted the discussion.
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Ah, no- general strategy is to remain an unknown without very good reason. Good reason might include a serious push to get you dead, or your role gives incriminating (or perhaps exonerating) evidence regarding someone else.

As such, being an unknown isn't a push to lynch.
 
...

Now that I'm looking at it, not sure I like the emphasis on "actual win condition"
 
Nictis said:
My win condition is very clear, except that it doesn't say if I need to be alive or not. The quote you're pulling could interpret either way on that, and IJW hasn't clarified it to me so I'm running with the assumption that I do need to be alive.

Okay, so the issue here is that that is not what I am saying or have said.

Backups inherit powers that are lost on death. IE: Cop or Doctor.
A Mafia is defined as a group that has a kill that needs the Town dead.
A scum Backup is meant to keep other powers in play, so that if we were to lynch a Mafia Transporter for example, the Mafia doesn't lose that power.

The only situation where a Mafia loses the ability to kill when their killer dies is in a game that is very poorly constructed, and the only example I know of is Crystal Watcher's Magical Mafia.

A backup is not going to exist in a two person Mafia because at that point it is easier on both the GM and the Mafia to have the power that would be inherited just be a factional ability that either member can use.

My reasoning for them not being able to choose who to kill is because of a few things.
-It is the way that IJW has handled the Mafia previously. Citing that time I was Mafia in his game.
-Shadell is an Experimental Gunsmith, meaning that there's a fail condition. The simplest explanation is that not all the scum are immediately kill capable, which is a common mechanic for a lot of mafia games.
-It plays into my power and my win condition, which isn't exactly hard proof but does play a factor into my belief that that is how it works.

Three total scum is a really low number for the game size, so I'm assuming a more reasonable set of three mafia and an SK, which matches into the Backup role existing.

This is where the thing called "Social Engineering" comes into play. If Rosen wasn't visiting a dead person, then he would have had no reason to lie about who he visited. He could have claimed Vigilante, or claimed to have been bodyguarding... Whoever it was he actually bodyguarded. Or he could have claimed to be a Bomb.

Instead he decided to claim that he was visiting Shadell, and was caught lying about it. And is kill capable. That all adds up to Rosen having killed someone.

Then they could have said so?

Like, in any game of Mafia you are going to have to make assumptions. The issue that I'm seeing is that you're trying to downplay what the obvious and easy answer is to just "Assumptions" in order to stop a plan you don't like, one that prevents Scum from killing both of the people that can find them.

Okay, so. Let's actually make an order for this, like I've been trying and suggesting to do.

(Also, I note that you say three scum here, even though you've been arguing that there were three total)
(And that you continue to try and state that lynching me, when I'm scum, is a waste)

We lynch Rosen.
Assuming that I don't block one of the killers, both Shadell and Hobo are killed.
That leaves Hybrid, Raptor, Chop, Meso, Nictis, Narcotic, and Cyricubed alive.
Let's cut out Narcotic and Meso here as people not worth lynching, and we're left with the same people we could be lynching today. So it's the same choice we have to make, just with both Shadell and Hobo dead.

Alternatively:
We lynch one of Hybrid, Raptor, Chop, or Cyricubed. (The Uncertains)
I block Rosen, let's assume that a Vigilante does not kill Rosen here.
Either Shadell or Hobo survive. Let's say Shadell for simplicity.
Let's say we lynched Hybrid here. We go into the Day with Raptor, Chop, Meso, Nictis, Narcotic, Cyricubed, Rosen, and Shadell alive.
Rosen is known Scum and can be lynched at any time. Shadell can confirm another person to not be a Killer, let's say Cyricubed.
That leaves the Uncertains being Raptor and Chop, and the Non-Killers being Meso, Nictis, Narcotic, Shadell, and Cyricubed.

You can see how the noose slips tighter when we can keep one of the confirmed Town alive longer? Lynching Rosen now just means that we have to face the same lynch choice tomorrow, but with one less Town on our side, meanwhile lynching one of the people who are uncertain could kill Scum now, and potentially even remove the other kill entirely.


Truthfully? They can't afford to really kill me. There's too many actual Town that they need to kill, and killing me would just raise the chances that they get caught by one of Shadell or Hobo.


TL:DR- Lynching Rosen now just lets the kill out and removes an additional Town Investigative tonight, and we'd still have to lynch one of the other people tomorrow.

InterstellarHobo: Town Watcher
Shadell: Town Experimental Gunsmith
ItzNarcotic: Not the Pink or Independent Killer.
mesonoxian: Probably Town by responses.
Hybrid: Unknown. (Slight Suspect)
Cyricubed: Unknown.
RaptorusMaximus: Unknown
OneStopChopShop: Unknown (Suspect by Day 2 response)
Nictis: Control Group Roleblocker
-Rosen: Killer.
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See, I think Rosen screwed up by adding the detail of visiting Shadell to look more authentic. A Bodyguard should have guarded somebody, and Shadell was the logical choice. He just miscalculated because Shadell was being watched. Think about it, if Rosen had claimed Vig, that would be a problem because he couldn't actual produce a night kill with any flavor but scums. As a Bodyguard, all they had to do was lie about where they were using their powers.

Also, you seem to have misread me. I'm saying that if you're wrong about how the game works but not scum, we're likely to waste a lynch on you. Like you roleblock Rosen. It doesn't prevent the night kill. Scum kill IH, so nobody can confirm you did any blocking. You likely get lynched even if you're not scum. And that's bad for town.

I think you are overestimating the likelihood of Shadell and IH being nightkilled. Any doctor or bodyguard that exists could guard IH, IH watches Shadell, either the scum don't hit the power roles or they waste their kill, or they reveal themselves. And since the two scum teams can't coordinate, they might very well hit the same target if they try. Sure, we don't know if their is a real bodyguard. Neither do the scum. It's a gamble for them. They might well decide it is better to hit people not underguard, and that opens up the possibility of crossfire, with pinkie killing off another scum, or the scum wasting a kill on pinkie.

Also, you are presuming that scum won't target you because you're third party. The problem is, they probably doubt that claim as much as town does.

One thing worrying me is you seem to be jumping from "Backup IV exists" to there being a single possible killer at any given time. But what if there are multiple types of possible nightkill, and the point of the backup is to make sure they retain access to them (so if we lynch a ninja scum, they become ninja, or if we lynch strong man, they become a strong man) or just different roles, like rolecop or jailer. Which means it is quite possible the backup is perfectly functional as scum and only gains some new feature when their team mate is lynched. The idea that this is definitely how the kill is transferred is a guess. A reasonable one, but a guess.

InterstellarHobo said:
Also, Nictis, I'm pretty sure you're reading that wrong.
You are not explicitly listed as needing to survive (I presume from your answers), and "If a requirement is not explicitly listed as part of your win condition then it is not required" seems to pretty unambiguously state that you are not required to survive.
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And there is this. I really don't like your description of your role. If you win when the killing stops, and you don't have to be alive, that sounds a lot like "you win when the game is over". It made a degree of sense on D1 when we were unsure if there were killing roles. It is a lot harder to square with the current state of the game.

And if we take you at your word, there is a good chance you can only win with scum, at which point we should not only not trust you, but should probably lynch you now.
 
Still reading that wrong- your actual win condition is what is explicitly stated.
This harder to achieve while dead. This is as far as being dead impacts your actual win condition.
 
InterstellarHobo said:
Ah, no- general strategy is to remain an unknown without very good reason. Good reason might include a serious push to get you dead, or your role gives incriminating (or perhaps exonerating) evidence regarding someone else.

As such, being an unknown isn't a push to lynch.
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This. Generally speaking you want to try and keep role info to yourself in order to avoid helping the scum prioritize kills and figure out what actions are safe to take, the exception mostly just being end game when everything is basically already sorted out and it's just down to making sure all the pieces are in place. I hate when that time gets rushed, and Day 2 really feels way too early to actually be "Solving" the game, but here we are... Blegh.
 
InterstellarHobo said:
Still reading that wrong- your actual win condition is what is explicitly stated.
This harder to achieve while dead. This is as far as being dead impacts your actual win condition.
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Agree to disagree then, because I really do think that that can be interpreted either way.
mesonoxian said:
lso, you seem to have misread me. I'm saying that if you're wrong about how the game works but not scum, we're likely to waste a lynch on you. Like you roleblock Rosen. It doesn't prevent the night kill. Scum kill IH, so nobody can confirm you did any blocking. You likely get lynched even if you're not scum. And that's bad for town.
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The Town win condition has openly been stated to need me dead. I'm just hoping that I can achieve mine before that happens.

That's why I've been saying it's odd that you're calling it a waste, because I'm not Town. And Town needs to kill me at some point.
mesonoxian said:
I think you are overestimating the likelihood of Shadell and IH being nightkilled. Any doctor or bodyguard that exists could guard IH, IH watches Shadell, either the scum don't hit the power roles or they waste their kill, or they reveal themselves.
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I can't actually respond to this without going into speculation that is better left unsaid.
*grumbles*
mesonoxian said:
Also, you are presuming that scum won't target you because you're third party. The problem is, they probably doubt that claim as much as town does.
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It is known that I'm not Town, and they'll know that I'm not part of their group.

Are they going to kill Town, or kill the person that is either Third Party or Scum?

Scum can doubt my claim, they still can't afford to waste time killing me. That's all there is to it.
mesonoxian said:
One thing worrying me is you seem to be jumping from "Backup IV exists" to there being a single possible killer at any given time. But what if there are multiple types of possible nightkill, and the point of the backup is to make sure they retain access to them (so if we lynch a ninja scum, they become ninja, or if we lynch strong man, they become a strong man) or just different roles, like rolecop or jailer. Which means it is quite possible the backup is perfectly functional as scum and only gains some new feature when their team mate is lynched. The idea that this is definitely how the kill is transferred is a guess. A reasonable one, but a guess.
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That's still not what I'm saying.
mesonoxian said:
And there is this. I really don't like your description of your role. If you win when the killing stops, and you don't have to be alive, that sounds a lot like "you win when the game is over". It made a degree of sense on D1 when we were unsure if there were killing roles. It is a lot harder to square with the current state of the game.

And if we take you at your word, there is a good chance you can only win with scum, at which point we should not only not trust you, but should probably lynch you now.
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I win when the killing stops. This is paraphrased, because I am not allowed to quote my rolecard. Read between the lines on that one.

And also, how did you get the idea that I both win just because the game ends, and can only win with scum? Scum can kill people.

Let me repeat that. Scum can kill people. I win when the killing stops. It is heavily implied that there are multiple sources of kills. I am a roleblocker.
 
InterstellarHobo said:
Ah, no- general strategy is to remain an unknown without very good reason. Good reason might include a serious push to get you dead, or your role gives incriminating (or perhaps exonerating) evidence regarding someone else.

As such, being an unknown isn't a push to lynch.
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Nictis said:
This. Generally speaking you want to try and keep role info to yourself in order to avoid helping the scum prioritize kills and figure out what actions are safe to take, the exception mostly just being end game when everything is basically already sorted out and it's just down to making sure all the pieces are in place. I hate when that time gets rushed, and Day 2 really feels way too early to actually be "Solving" the game, but here we are... Blegh.
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...ah.

...


Whelp. Guess I know for next time?

...there probably won't be a next time...
 
Nictis said:
Agree to disagree then, because I really do think that that can be interpreted either way.

The Town win condition has openly been stated to need me dead. I'm just hoping that I can achieve mine before that happens.

That's why I've been saying it's odd that you're calling it a waste, because I'm not Town. And Town needs to kill me at some point.

I can't actually respond to this without going into speculation that is better left unsaid.
*grumbles*

It is known that I'm not Town, and they'll know that I'm not part of their group.

Are they going to kill Town, or kill the person that is either Third Party or Scum?

Scum can doubt my claim, they still can't afford to waste time killing me. That's all there is to it.

That's still not what I'm saying.

I win when the killing stops. This is paraphrased, because I am not allowed to quote my rolecard. Read between the lines on that one.

And also, how did you get the idea that I both win just because the game ends, and can only win with scum? Scum can kill people.

Let me repeat that. Scum can kill people. I win when the killing stops. It is heavily implied that there are multiple sources of kills. I am a roleblocker.
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You don't have to quote your role card to explain your wincon such that reading between the lines is unnecessary.

Did the rolecard say you win when everybody with a killing power is dead? Because that isn't the same thing as "when the killing stops". The scum aren't going to kill each other, so the killing would stop when they've exterminated town. In fact, they probably only need to reach 50% of the player population, rather than being the only people left. That's why I'd think you could only win with them.

If your win condition is what you are implying, you have to kill the mafia and the SK, just like town. But also town needs to lynch you. That seems like bad design. Maybe I am wrong, and that is exactly how it works. Maybe I have done a bad job understanding or you have done a bad job explaining and so I've gotten the wrong idea. Or maybe you made up your win condition when you were less certain of how the game worked and it doesn't quite make sense now.

Tell me if this makes sense:

I'm presuming you are honest and correct about everything for the following:

The SK has to kill everyone presumably. That includes you, so no time is being wasted. If Rosen is Mafia and you are going to lock down the kill, the SK could just kill you tonight. Depending on the order of operations that means you die and we avoid zero or one night kills for one night at the cost of having failed to lynch scum.

If Rosen is the SK, your plan fails completely. Roleblocking Rosen doesn't reduce the number of kills by anymore than roleblocking him would. All we've done is replace a definite good lynch with a possibly bad one.

And that is assuming you've told us the whole truth, and that you have foreseen exactly how the nightkill works, and that there is no other wildcard that muddles your plans.
 
RaptorusMaximus said:
...ah.

...


Whelp. Guess I know for next time?

...there probably won't be a next time...
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Well, it's unfortunate that you don't intent to come back, but such is life. Do keep in mind that this game has been something of a shitshow.

As for your claim, don't worry about it. In this case not only is the claim you made the 'default', so you don't make yourself a target for no reason, but also enough power roles are open that you are probably not going to worsen things by leaking information.
 
RaptorusMaximus said:
...ah.

...


Whelp. Guess I know for next time?

...there probably won't be a next time...
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Honestly, I'd recommend giving it another go. This goes to all the new players by the way, if you're seeing this.

This is definitely outside the norm of how these games tend to go, usually there's more of a focus on the actual gameplay and social aspect, and so there's more stuff to engage with. This game just had broken code really quickly and we're left with not much to actually do.

There are... Issues in this game, both in the setup and how it's been played so far, and I am sorry that nobody here really got to enjoy the game.
 
mesonoxian said:
Did the rolecard say you win when everybody with a killing power is dead? Because that isn't the same thing as "when the killing stops". The scum aren't going to kill each other, so the killing would stop when they've exterminated town. In fact, they probably only need to reach 50% of the player population, rather than being the only people left. That's why I'd think you could only win with them.
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Thank you.
 
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