The Lost Primarch Quest

[Xela63]

I want to point out people trying to say it's bad we're capturing Thrawn and going behind Dorn's Back can back off when they wanna capture the man and present him to Dorn himself. You might try to say I'm being bad, but you're actively putting someone whose going to die in front of the person more likely to torture him. Meaning he gets to live on in agony for a while

Also once again, we are doing this through Malcador meaning we, are not going to be exposed for it. Especially since Baldur or Malcador is going to full-heartedly destroy the goddamn note. Or we can just have Baldur memorize what we tell him. Either way, this is enacted throughout Malacador and once Thrawn either A) Agrees after being kidnapped, then he's going to fully get changed up and consistently be sent away whenever Dorn comes over with a portion of our fleet regarding the NW and some Eternal Wardens, or B) When he says no twice, killed.

You guys seem to be laboring under the misconception we can afford to not try to convince Thrawn to our side, or that Dorn will look favorly upon us kidnapping him and then telling him about it. He'll ask why we did, what we wanted. And he'll be capable of actually you know, realizing two reasons why we could have kidnapped Thrawn. One of which hurts our relationship with him, while the other has him thinking we're trying to bribe him of sorts as a way to help him feel better.

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Some people just don't get how psychology works. You don't think rationally after just having lost 99% of your family. That would destroy anyone. And presenting him the person for him to kill may make him feel better for all of 1 second, before he realizes that this doesn't change an iota. And then he goes back to being depressed. Dorn won't ever forgive this, it would be like betrayal to his family for him, his sons. We'll have to keep those two as far away as possible while making sure that Thrawn won't be recognized, because he's too valuable. Really, Kesar seems to know at least something about human psychology, which should make him go nope on this.

 

[RandomDwarf]

[X] Plan Wolf, Don't go behind Dorns back

would rather not fuck over Dorn while he is really fucked over by the whole thing...

 

[Star]

You guys seem to be laboring under the misconception we can afford to not try to convince Thrawn to our side, or that Dorn will look favorly upon us kidnapping him and then telling him about it. He'll ask why we did, what we wanted. And he'll be capable of actually you know, realizing two reasons why we could have kidnapped Thrawn. One of which hurts our relationship with him, while the other has him thinking we're trying to bribe him of sorts as a way to help him feel better.

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Not really, yes Dorn hates Thrawn but he as well knows/ will know Kesars motivation to help humanity. I don't think that he will be mad on us for asking him about this, i believe that he will actually appreciate that even though Kesar has his own goals and wishes he is still taking his feelings into the account when it comes to this.

It's better alternative than Kesar going behind Dorns back and doing this. It would not only damage Kesars relationship with Dorn if it's found out, but it gives dark twist to Kesars character in which he goes from someone who knows what loss of his sons feels like to someone who is willing to shelter the weary person who killed Dorns sons for his own agenda.

 

[tri2]

[X] Plan Wolf, Don't go behind Dorns back

 

[Altered]

Some people just don't get how psychology works. You don't think rationally after just having lost 99% of your family. That would destroy anyone. And presenting him the person for him to kill may make him feel better for all of 1 second, before he realizes that this doesn't change an iota. And then he goes back to being depressed. Dorn won't ever forgive this, it would be like betrayal to his family for him, his sons. We'll have to keep those two as far away as possible while making sure that Thrawn won't be recognized, because he's too valuable. Really, Kesar seems to know at least something about human psychology, which should make him go nope on this.

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Fair enough, I'm thankful you at least recognize the fact that giving Thrawn to Dorn isn't the way to go in terms of really helping him. I still disagree with the last part mainly because once again I'm thinking more about the entire Imperium then just Dorn. After all, everyone has been bleeding and trying to stop this endless rain of blood.

Not really, yes Dorn hates Thrawn but he as well knows/ will know Kesars motivation to help humanity. I don't think that he will be mad on us for asking him about this, i believe that he will actually appreciate that even though Kesar has his own goals and wishes he is still taking his feelings into the account when it comes to this.

It's better alternative than Kesar going behind Dorns back and doing this. It would not only damage Kesars relationship with Dorn if it's found out, but it gives dark twist to Kesars character in which he goes from someone who knows what loss of his sons feels like to someone who is willing to shelter the weary person who killed Dorns sons for his own agenda.

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Regarding the first bit, Dorn doesn't quite know of Kesar's motivation and with how he currently is, it's unlikely he will. I'm not so sure how he'll appreciate us taking his feelings into account when the kidnapping will kinda demonstrate straight up we want to potentially keep this guy alive and in our side, once Dorn learns about it. Though to be fair asking if he wants him dead then having him killed when Dorn says yes will likely help him for a minute.

Regarding the second bit, once again, Kesar's personality is that of the greater good. He abandoned his planet to see to it that Humanity overall would be strengthened. As much as he hated the AI on Gehenna station he took great pains sacrificing more of his sons to ensure less destruction occurred so he could literally salvage most of it. Kesar from the very beginning of this has had a dark twist in the devotion to humanity we've Played him with.

 

[Nicholas Brooks]

@Altered do you think Dorn would understand Kesar's position on trying to use Thrawn for ourselves? He doesn't strike me as the sort of person to not think in the long-term.

 

[Altered]

@Altered do you think Dorn would understand Kesar's position on trying to use Thrawn for ourselves? He doesn't strike me as the sort of person to not think in the long-term.

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I think Dorn is capable of understanding it, the issue right now is Dorn literally is in a bad state of mind. His sons have turned on him, he had to put them down. Other ones were massively slaughtered. He's not there, his minds foundation took a substantial hit and he's still being hit hard with it considering he kept rolling poorly during the Acadian battle. If this was a Dorn who came off Cadia with good rolls, with hella great rolls I'd see him as actually being willing to keep Thrawn alive working for the Imperium, probably in some heavy chains though. He ain't the one to let his sons die without some punishment, but right now adorn isn't the Wall we need him to be. He isn't the fort of stoicism he usual is. He's broken and crumbling.

More so then Dorn though is the Imperium. We've literally been shown that all the Primarchs are bleeding and taking heavy losses, the Mechanicus is barely managing to stymie the tide. Having a Hero Unit who managed to literally almost wipe out Dorn's Legion while using inferior technology and lesser numbers while his enemy had the Phalanx would be huge help to the Imperium overall.

 

[Star]

Regarding the first bit, Dorn doesn't quite know of Kesar's motivation and with how he currently is, it's unlikely he will. I'm not so sure how he'll appreciate us taking his feelings into account when the kidnapping will kinda demonstrate straight up we want to potentially keep this guy alive and in our side, once Dorn learns about it. Though to be fair asking if he wants him dead then having him killed when Dorn says yes will likely help him for a minute.

Regarding the second bit, once again, Kesar's personality is that of the greater good. He abandoned his planet to see to it that Humanity overall would be strengthened. As much as he hated the AI on Gehenna station he took great pains sacrificing more of his sons to ensure less destruction occurred so he could literally salvage most of it. Kesar from the very beginning of this has had a dark twist in the devotion to humanity we've Played him with.

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It will be appreciated more than Kesar hiding it from him, that kind of situation just calls for trouble, not to mention that Dorn would probably understand that killing Thrawn won't bring back his sons, while sparring him would save more lives.

Not to mention that Kesar won't go there and say " hey i kinda want to recuit that guy" he will go, present Thrawn to Dorn together with his case and ask for Dorns judgment ready to accept the outcome of it.

 

[Xela63]

@Altered do you think Dorn would understand Kesar's position on trying to use Thrawn for ourselves? He doesn't strike me as the sort of person to not think in the long-term.

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Right now? He might just get a roll for it with a damn high DC not to kill him and an even higher one to not slip back into depression. You don't just kill 99% of someone's family and be "oh yeah, I may not forgive you, but I understand your usefulness". That kind is not what a very grieving person is. As was said, the 700 original Fists are basically all he really cares about atm, which is not a good sign for his State of Mind.

 

[Xela63]

It will be appreciated more than Kesar hiding it from him, that kind of situation just calls for trouble, not to mention that Dorn would probably understand that killing Thrawn won't bring back his sons, while sparring him would save more lives.

Not to mention that Kesar won't go there and say " hey i kinda want to recuit that guy" he will go, present Thrawn to Dorn together with his case and ask for Dorns judgment ready to accept the outcome of it.

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Did you just not read what I wrote about human psychology? Primarchs at their base are still human in mind. He is never going to be rational about this thing. It's like asking the French after WWI to forgive the Germans, something that just ain't happening. It won't do shit for Dorn's psyche.

 

[Star]

Did you just not read what I wrote about human psychology? Primarchs at their base are still human in mind. He is never going to be rational about this thing. It's like asking the French after WWI to forgive the Germans, something that just ain't happening.

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For me whatever he decides is acceptable outcome, if it means not risking losing another Primarch, or creating division in the Imperium.

I would rather take a chance of Dorn forgiving, or executing Thrawn, than him discovering that we did this behind his back.

Because when it comes to good of the Imperium gambling with feelings of the Primarch can do more damage than good that Thrawn would give it.

So yea when it comes to greater good Kesar would chose his brother over Thrawn.

Edit : As for his psychological state? If he kills Thrawn at least he will know he avenged his sons and will be able to rebuild his legion in peace without revenge hindering him

If he forgives him, that's even better.

 

[fatbird]

I don't think need him alive to use his skills, if we do manage to assassinate him we could steal his head and turn it into a servitor unit to help direct fleets with the help of the mechanicus.

 

[Xela63]

I don't think need him alive to use his skills, if we do manage to assassinate him we could steal his head and turn it into a servitor unit to help direct fleets with the help of the mechanicus.

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You negated your own purpose in the same sentence, wow. Servitors are basically braindead and only do what you tell them/ program them to do, with zero creativity. You need creativity to direct a moving battlefield, otherwise you can't react to, let's say the enemy unveiling a new weapon properly. You'd get your whole fleet slaughtered at worst, it'd defeat the purpose.

 

[Nicholas Brooks]

Did you just not read what I wrote about human psychology? Primarchs at their base are still human in mind. He is never going to be rational about this thing. It's like asking the French after WWI to forgive the Germans, something that just ain't happening. It won't do shit for Dorn's psyche.

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Primarchs are not mortals, so the French vs. German example isn't exactly accurate. This scenario would he closer if the French could damn near see the future with their super intelligence and predict that something like Hitler would happen. Emotionally they might be human, but intellectually and physically, they are anything but.

Right now? He might just get a roll for it with a damn high DC not to kill him and an even higher one to not slip back into depression. You don't just kill 99% of someone's family and be "oh yeah, I may not forgive you, but I understand your usefulness". That kind is not what a very grieving person is. As was said, the 700 original Fists are basically all he really cares about atm, which is not a good sign for his State of Mind.

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Rogal is a Primarch. Even in mourning, he can consider the pros and cons of decisions. Dorn may decide to kill him anyway, yeah, but he would be well aware of the potential benefits. Also, Thrawn didn't kill 99% of Rogal's family. The vast majority of the Imperial Fists were killed by the Ruinous Powers.

 

[Altered]

For me whatever he decides is acceptable outcome, if it means not risking losing another Primarch, or creating division in the Imperium.

I would rather take a chance of Dorn forgiving, or executing Thrawn, than him discovering that we did this behind his back.

Because when it comes to good of the Imperium gambling with feelings of the Primarch can do more damage than good that Thrawn would give it.

So yea when it comes to greater good Kesar would chose his brother over Thrawn.

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At the end of the day, Dorn is subservient to the Emperor and if the Emperor actually cared to weigh in he himself would appreciate the strategic advantages of Thrawn. Once more, Thrawn is one hundred percent capable of being hidden under new identity both in terms of actual identity and body stuff thanks to technology. We can also pretty damned easily keep the two separate from each other considering the entire Great Crusade is a gigantic affair and putting one rather far away is easily done.

When it comes to the Greater Good their are at bare minimum a dozen tactics that can be conceived and utilized to hide Thrawn away from Dorn and ensure those two never come in contact or conflict with each other. Once again, just because we're proposing this doesn't mean Malcador wasn't going to it already. This way we get to have Baldur gain another diplomacy trait, while we hopefully get yet another Void Specialist who can help prevent us or even another portion of the Imperium from suffering large losses.

Rogal is a Primarch. Even in mourning, he can consider the pros and cons of decisions. Dorn may decide to kill him anyway, yeah, but he would be well aware of the potential benefits. Also, Thrawn didn't kill 99% of Rogal's family. The vast majority of the Imperial Fists were killed by the Ruinous Powers.

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Even mortal you can consider the pros and cons of certain decisions, the entire issue is Dorn is too emotional right now. To broken by his own suffering brought about by the Runious Powers. He's too likely to just kill Thrawn or torture him if we pretty much give him the chance. Right now Dorn is pretty much Lorgar post-Dorlinian Rebuke, thankfully he's not going to turn to the Runious Powers. It just means he's emotionally fragile and prone to inherently emotional decisions. Remember the Iron Cage? This is pretty much the Dorn we're looking at, but thankfully, it's less so. He's more focused on his sons here, he's entirely unlikely to go march off into some trap. But that doesn't excuse him from making judgments entirely out of anger, pain, rage, and hatred.

 

[fatbird]

You negated your own purpose in the same sentence, wow. Servitors are basically braindead and only do what you tell them/ program them to do, with zero creativity. You need creativity to direct a moving battlefield, otherwise you can't react to, let's say the enemy unveiling a new weapon properly. You'd get your whole fleet slaughtered at worst, it'd defeat the purpose.

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I thinking more of a brain in the jar bio computer, couldn't really think of a word to use beside servitor, although some servitors aren't brain dead. Some are trapped in their bodies while having no control. If worse comes to worse we can attempt to clone him and hope for the best.

 

[Star]

At the end of the day, Dorn is subservient to the Emperor and if the Emperor actually cared to weigh in he himself would appreciate the strategic advantages of Thrawn. Once more, Thrawn is one hundred percent capable of being hidden under new identity both in terms of actual identity and body stuff thanks to technology. We can also pretty damned easily keep the two separate from each other considering the entire Great Crusade is a gigantic affair and putting one rather far away is easily done.

When it comes to the Greater Good their are at bare minimum a dozen tactics that can be conceived and utilized to hide Thrawn away from Dorn and ensure those two never come in contact or conflict with each other. Once again, just because we're proposing this doesn't mean Malcador wasn't going to it already. This way we get to have Baldur gain another diplomacy trait, while we hopefully get yet another Void Specialist who can help prevent us or even another portion of the Imperium from suffering large losses.

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Yes he will be forced to listen to the Emperor, but the option says it itself, it may anger him, now think how he will react if this is done behind his back and he discovers it. Just like there are dozens of ways to hide it, there are as well dozens of ways for him to discover it.

This kind of game and opportunity is the thing that Chaos waits to happen and crusade itself is unpredictable affair as well, who knows when Dorns and Thrawn paths will cross again and what fate has planned for the two of them. Not to mention that the resources used to hide Thrawn could be used elsewhere to combat chaos infiltration.


As for Baldur, he can still gain that trait, it's just that Dorn gets the final say.

 

[Altered]

Yes he will be forced to listen to the Emperor, but the option says it itself, it may anger him, now think how he will react if this is done behind his back and he discovers it. Just like there are dozens of ways to hide it, there are as well dozens of ways for him to discover it.

This kind of game and opportunity is the thing that Chaos waits to happen, not to mention that the resources used to hide Thrawn could be used elsewhere to combat chaos infiltration.

As for Baldur he van still gain that trait, it's just that Dorn gets the final say.

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Resources used to hide him, aren't resources that'll be utilized on combating Chaos Infiltration. I don't know how medical procedures alongside setting up a new identity elsewhere equates to misappropriation of resources that could be used to fight Chaos Infiltration unless you mean time ad effort? Even then, it's not really the same as people performing medical procedures or those making new identities aren't really of much use in fighting Chaos.


Outside of Thrawn sharing the same room as him, outside of Chaos going out of their way to reveal him, there's literally maybe two other ways to actually reveal Thrawn. Heck, we could honestly mind-wipe Thrawn of certain things and Thrawn wouldn't be Thrawn anymore in the sense of being the one who fought Dorn's Imperial Fists. Just pointing out there are tons of ways to get around Thrawn potentially being revealed, while the only way to actually reveal us turning him comes from Chaos, us revealing it ourselves, or Imperial Assassins absolutely bungling the entire thing. Otherwise one can quite easily pull off what is suggested.

 

[Star]

Resources used to hide him, aren't resources that'll be utilized on combating Chaos Infiltration. I don't know how medical procedures alongside setting up a new identity elsewhere equates to misappropriation of resources that could be used to fight Chaos Infiltration unless you mean time ad effort? Even then, it's not really the same as people performing medical procedures or those making new identities aren't really of much use in fighting Chaos.


Outside of Thrawn sharing the same room as him, outside of Chaos going out of their way to reveal him, there's literally maybe two other ways to actually reveal Thrawn. Heck, we could honestly mind-wipe Thrawn of certain things and Thrawn wouldn't be Thrawn anymore in the sense of being the one who fought Dorn's Imperial Fists. Just pointing out there are tons of ways to get around Thrawn potentially being revealed, while the only way to actually reveal us turning him comes from Chaos, us revealing it ourselves, or Imperial Assassins absolutely bungling the entire thing. Otherwise one can quite easily pull off what is suggested.

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Once againthis is all a gamble, i gamble that Dorn may forgive Thrawn for us to reap the benefits, you gamble that Dorn won't discover this.


As for chaos going out of their own way? I sincerely doubt that they would miss a chance to implants seeds of doubt within Dorns mind, or cause a divide within the Imperium, especially if the way to do it is so easy because we will only count on Dorn and Thrawn not meeting while Chaos can just direct Dorn towards this miraculous new admiral with few pointers here and there and let his genius Primarch mind do the work.

 

[Altered]

Once againthis is all a gamble, i gamble that Dorn may forgive Thrawn for us to reap the benefits, you gamble that Dorn won't discover this.


As for chaos going out of their own way? I sincerely doubt that they would miss a chance to implants seeds of doubt within Dorns mind, or cause a divide within the Imperium, especially if the way to do it is so easy because we will only count on Dorn and Thrawn not meeting while Chaos can just direct Dorn towards this miraculous new admiral with few pointers here and there.

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Alright let's analyze some facts here. Dorn doesn't know what Thrawn looks like, what he sounds like, what he acts like and best of all he only knows barely a portion of his tactics. Something that was utilized from a position of inferiority to invite the vulnerability into his technologically and numerically superior enemy. Put Thrawn through all the shit we said and with the point of him being up there and commanding said enemy he once faced of sorts in technology and numbers, Thrawn is utterly and entirely different. He may as well not be Thrawn because his original tactics wouldn't work, he'd have to learn new ones and such. Thrawn would be different. Thrawn would likely be capable of meeting with Dorn and getting away with it, if only because of the sheer difference between Thrawn's original persona as Thrawn vs whatever identity we arrange for him.

 

[Star]

Alright let's analyze some facts here. Dorn doesn't know what Thrawn looks like, what he sounds like, what he acts like and best of all he only knows barely a portion of his tactics. Something that was utilized from a position of inferiority to invite the vulnerability into his technologically and numerically superior enemy. Put Thrawn through all the shit we said and with the point of him being up there and commanding said enemy he once faced of sorts in technology and numbers, Thrawn is utterly and entirely different. He may as well not be Thrawn because his original tactics wouldn't work, he'd have to learn new ones and such. Thrawn would be different. Thrawn would likely be capable of meeting with Dorn and getting away with it, if only because of the sheer difference between Thrawn's original persona as Thrawn vs whatever identity we arrange for him.

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Yes , if your brainwashing works the way it's meant to, not to mention crazy abilities Chaos has, or sheer mental capability of Primarchs.

Edit:
These are all ifs and action pretty much said that he may be angered, there is same possibility of Dorn seeing the bigger picture and forgiving Thrawn because just like Dorns sons had their duty towards the Imperium so did Thrawn had his, he didn't killed them because he wanted to, he did it out of duty.

So Dorn may find it within himself to forgive him for circumstances he couldn't control and enable us to come clean.

What he couldn't forgive is the Imperium his sons died for hiding such things from him and doubting him.

 

[Nicholas Brooks]

Alright let's analyze some facts here. Dorn doesn't know what Thrawn looks like, what he sounds like, what he acts like and best of all he only knows barely a portion of his tactics. Something that was utilized from a position of inferiority to invite the vulnerability into his technologically and numerically superior enemy. Put Thrawn through all the shit we said and with the point of him being up there and commanding said enemy he once faced of sorts in technology and numbers, Thrawn is utterly and entirely different. He may as well not be Thrawn because his original tactics wouldn't work, he'd have to learn new ones and such. Thrawn would be different. Thrawn would likely be capable of meeting with Dorn and getting away with it, if only because of the sheer difference between Thrawn's original persona as Thrawn vs whatever identity we arrange for him.

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Firstly, Chaos can probably get around that issue. Secondly, Thrawn will use the same tactics when faced with a similar situation (superior foe that has less numbers.) In other words, he must never be allowed to face Necrons, Dark Eldar, or any number of enemies that would provide a similar situation to what Thrawn faced against the Fists because then the survivors of that battle will recognize his tactics from the records.

 

[Nicholas Brooks]

[X] Plan Wolf, Don't go behind Dorns back

 

[Altered]

Firstly, Chaos can probably get around that issue. Secondly, Thrawn will use the same tactics when faced with a similar situation (superior foe that has less numbers.) In other words, he must never be allowed to face Necrons, Dark Eldar, or any number of enemies that would provide a similar situation to what Thrawn faced against the Fists because then the survivors of that battle will recognize his tactics from the records.

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What, different levels of technology alongside different level of professionalism and training means those tactics while similar won't be fully the same. Also, it's not like Dorn is going to be privy to you know... Thrawn doing his thing when he's with us. Not to mention, any survivors of that battle won't necessarily recognize the tactics because it's not like they'll have them memorized to heart in the "Thrawn did this sort of thing way". Also, there's definitely already tactics in the record that Thrawn would have access to and be capable of studying to figure out how to handle DE and similar enemies, heck Oriacarius himself is a valid font of information.

Speaking of Chaos, how do they get around the issue of extreme medical make-over and Dorn somehow managing to go through all the layers of bureaucracy that'll be utilized to create the fake identity for Thrawn? Especially since this isn't canon stuff, it's something that's a combination of Malcador and Alpha and Omega's genius?

Yes , if your brainwashing works the way it's meant to, not to mention crazy abilities Chaos has, or sheer mental capability of Primarchs.

Edit:
These are all ifs and action pretty much said that he may be angered, there is same possibility of Dorn seeing the bigger picture and forgiving Thrawn because just like Dorns sons had their duty towards the Imperium so did Thrawn had his, he didn't killed them because he wanted to, he did it out of duty.

So Dorn may find it within himself to forgive him for circumstances he couldn't control and enable us to come clean.

What he couldn't forgive is the Imperium his sons died for hiding such things from him and doubting him.

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What brainwashing? Not to mention Chaos might have crazy abilities, but really, they're going to somehow sabotage the entirety of the paperwork to expose Thrawn? Demonstrate to me how they're going to do so. Please do it. Show me, explain how they'll manage to take apart that because well...it's something that's entirely going through so many facets already that Dorn would have to literally go to the planet, investigate the entire story piece by piece to effectively break it. How will they handle the entire surgery and the likely comprehensive training he goes through to hide his original persona away or the sheer amount of tactics, and information available to him that'll lead to entirely new tactics and more? Because right now you're trying to say the curtain is transparent and Chaos is going to tear it down while I keep pointing out to you that it's literally black as night and Chaos's interference is literally going to be something that won't mess it up considering the realistically sheer amount of stuff put into this.

 

[Star]

What brainwashing? Not to mention Chaos might have crazy abilities, but really, they're going to somehow sabotage the entirety of the paperwork to expose Thrawn? Demonstrate to me how they're going to do so. Please do it. Show me, explain how they'll manage to take apart that because well...it's something that's entirely going through so many facets already that Dorn would have to literally go to the planet, investigate the entire story piece by piece to effectively break it. How will they handle the entire surgery and the likely comprehensive training he goes through to hide his original persona away or the sheer amount of tactics, and information available to him that'll lead to entirely new tactics and more? Because right now you're trying to say the curtain is transparent and Chaos is going to tear it down while I keep pointing out to you that it's literally black as night and Chaos's interference is literally going to be something that won't mess it up considering the realistically sheer amount of stuff put into this

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That's the thing about Chaos they are unrealistic, in OTL they managed to take down entire family of Gary Stues despite improbability of it, all because certain papa stu decided to hide things from his sons and expected things to play logically.

Not to mention that this quest itself has examples of impossible becoming possible, Alpharius/Omegon managing to pull things they did, mere mortal wounding Slannesh, a demon fighting against Khorne for 6/9 minutes and just now mere human female fighting dark Eldar with a knife.

And surgery and training aren't perfect, some habits are impossible to erase, for all his genius Thrawn isn't a machine to learn to create a new strategys on a whim and some situations will call for old habits to resurface.

But most importantly chaos doesn't need a way to achieve things, it only needs opportunity to show itself.