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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
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I bet that the first psykers around (IE: the old ones in all likelyhood) when they first invented/named their first model/set-of-catagories (before improving/replacing it) that it forced/pushed the warp into acting like they WERE the fundamental categories to some degree if only cas there was not a whole lot there pushing back against the old one's idea
yes they might have known it was not fundamental consciously, but they might have thought like it was in the back of their minds. so when they figured out a bit more they might have realized they had changed it to that initial model anyway.
weird world that---that your initial impressions of a new science ends up changing the universe such that it ends up following what you thought it was and only later find out that it WAS wrong and now is not anymroe
.....or maybe the old one's diden't even GO through the whole process of "science" like we do because....reasons or something
.....or their impression on the warp ended up getting erased once they gained the power to completely re-write the warp over that impression anyway.
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Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
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Hopefully, we'll graduate to something more neutonian.
Doomed Wombat
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mmm I wonder what our apple on the head moment will be...
I wonder if this is something so fundamental that the Eldar are quivering with the desire to blurt it out, but also know that if they do then there'll be some kind of warp backlash.
- Location
- Australia
Canonwise, humans are second only to the eldar in general psychic knowledge amongst all living races.
- Location
- western US
okay guys! we just got a rare treat of a hint about something "fundlemental".....lets start theorizing.
known statements in prior post///possable conclusions/theorys as a result.:
1): that the old ones are the "first" psykers---->>possable false statement and thus there is something "older"...maybe the source of/or-is the super chaos in the sea of souls?
2): inital impressions --->>> becomes the reality we live in. maybe the old ones/whoever did something via their sub-conscious thoughts before they learned better and "created" something they should not have by accident (effectively). (IE: the evil super-chaos).
3): the old ones did not go through the process of science we did --->>> not sure what the alternatives or possable conclusions....either they STARTED the way the ended because shinanagins and/or they made it so they started that way via time travel (going back in time to hand yourself skematics to a time machine).
4): that WE need to start being careful about what we think of how the warp works before WE create something bad (or don't create something good using the narrative power-boost that is our initial foray into psychic science)....if this is the case we need to think about ways to change our science with the intention of controling where it ends up.....
known statements in prior post///possable conclusions/theorys as a result.:
1): that the old ones are the "first" psykers---->>possable false statement and thus there is something "older"...maybe the source of/or-is the super chaos in the sea of souls?
2): inital impressions --->>> becomes the reality we live in. maybe the old ones/whoever did something via their sub-conscious thoughts before they learned better and "created" something they should not have by accident (effectively). (IE: the evil super-chaos).
3): the old ones did not go through the process of science we did --->>> not sure what the alternatives or possable conclusions....either they STARTED the way the ended because shinanagins and/or they made it so they started that way via time travel (going back in time to hand yourself skematics to a time machine).
4): that WE need to start being careful about what we think of how the warp works before WE create something bad (or don't create something good using the narrative power-boost that is our initial foray into psychic science)....if this is the case we need to think about ways to change our science with the intention of controling where it ends up.....
Doomed Wombat
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Second by dint of the eldar killing everyone else that should have been there isn't really second
Is that envisioning Avernus, or a psycic group we are envisioning on Avernus.
A good first step to that would be to learn you know the laws of the warp.
Its hard to get more fundamental than learning the laws that seem to pin down all of its workings.
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- Omniverse #1345
Nothing about the Warp is truly fundamental, beyond that it reflects life. Therefore anything about the warp that currently exists is a result of the grooves life has worn in it, and the contamination from the primordial sea.
The Old Ones were the first, and were very strong. So they wore both the first grooves and the deepest ones. So the question is what did the Old Ones consider fundamental to the warp? To what was, at the time, the sea of souls.
The Old Ones were the first, and were very strong. So they wore both the first grooves and the deepest ones. So the question is what did the Old Ones consider fundamental to the warp? To what was, at the time, the sea of souls.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
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I'd surmise what is now the laws of the warp, since these are laws that apply even to the Great Gods and everything that has come since.
mmm
Connection: A law that allows for bonds and facilitates communications likely the first law.
Cost: A law to ameliorate the consequences if you know what you're doing with it. Seems like the second.
Narrative: A law that theoretically allows for them to shape things towards positive outcomes. Probably the third since it is much more esoteric than the other two.
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- Australia
Humans could build webway (knock-off webway but still webway), turn individual people into psykers, create a species of psykers, and invent warptech to access the source of all knowledge. Humanity's got some legit achievements to its name in canon.Second by dint of the eldar killing everyone else that should have been there isn't really second
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true dat!
but then again, maybe it would be a good idea (as given by the possabity of my statement # 1/2-->>inital thoughts changing the way things are for at least you) to make sure that your invention/discovery is something good rather then something bad by "inventing it the right way" by preparing the way you think about it...somehow.
basically, imagine that us doing the law "wrong" makes the super-chaos a "little" interested in us....which of course is bad. but us doing it "right" means we are better hidden....or some other consequence/good-thing for us that the old ones managed to discover.
also, another possible idea from the hint is that part of the reason why the old ones were so powerful was that the warp is basically "imprinted" on them since they are the not just the "oldest" but the *first* pyskers (powerful narrative-law based boost) AND they were the first one to decide how the warp works (and thus is intrinsically tied/forced to work in the way THEY think....while the rest of us have to work with long-dead species thinks)...how much of the reality "we know" is simply because they decided it should be that way and how much is the way they discovered?
edit: ninja-ed by earlier post from @Byzatine...so yeah
...I actually think this theory is true (rather than just random speiclation like my other ideas), I just don't know to what degree it is true.
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Our belief in how the warp works affects how the warp works? We did know that, so that's not one of the fundamentals. We do know that Runemasters and Technomancers utterly suck at other 'disciplines' because they view the warp in a completely different way, which is interesting. We also already know the warp is subjective and warp law research is also subjective. We know the Warp reflects the Materium - WiH made the warp the way it is, for example.
But the Old Ones had a huge advantage - For starters, as the first people to access the warp, they likely saw the warp as a curiosity, a discovery. Not a place of danger, scarred by war. It's doubtful they ever had psykers blowing up. But the warp wasn't as powerful back then either. If the Old Ones are similar at all to humanity - They created Lizardmen, Eldar and Orks, the former two of which have definite 'Roles' (See: Saurus/Skink/Slann, Eldar Paths, and well Orks).
Another thought: Cognoscynths?
Attraction is probably an aspect of a deeper law. I think Attraction is to ensure psychic theories result in something like the same due to warp subjectivity - It's basically a method to ensure all similar warp theories and principles turn out to be the same. It's definitely convenient if you can use the same gold from anywhere for the same rituals.
Narrative is more like the formula and the theories themselves. If X, therefore Y. This makes it easier to do psychic rituals - Interpreting ritual as 'ability to do anything'. It also applies to heroes and archetypes especially, but that seems more like an extra effect, not particularly intentional. Also helps to maintain proper flow of time in the warp. No one wants backward time travel warp disasters.
Cost has several reasons behind it. It limits psykers and also warp-disasters. It allows you to specify specific effects by specifying what you put in. I imagine the Old Ones foresaw the possibility of a rogue Old One or a rogue psyker in general. Consider this the restraining bolt to ensure the warp and sea of souls don't kill everyone with infinite psychic power.
One of the nice things about superceded scientific theories is that they're still relevent, and oftentimes earlier theories are just a less complete version of latter theories. Newtonian physics is still pretty good for a lot of calculations even when we know it is incorrect (superseded by relativity).
I mean, excluding Emperor, Malcador, Magnus, Chaos, etc. We certainly lost a lot of knowledge when Terra fell, though it's not like we could get it at all.
Humanity's distribution of psychic knowledge is definitely at the trash level. Tau have a better distribution than Humanity in that r egard.
- Location
- Australia
Navigators were made in the Dark Age and the Akashic Reader was made by Mechanicus personnel.
Doomed Wombat
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Knock off webway emperor (twice)
Species of psykers also emperor (assuming we're both thinking of the psy engine)
The Atlas Infernal a book dating from the horus herey, bound in the skin of pariahs that models the webway...even if its not explicitly said I think its not an unreasonable inference to say that emps made that too.
Its worse than that bound up almost exclusively in emp's bonnet and his coterie of fanatical (and all dead) personally trained nitwits.
Indeed, paradime shifts are very important in that sense, + the good and bad thing about scientific theories is that they can be shifted to account for things not in the theory.
IIRC in Neutonian physics once they tried to calculate the positions of all the planets, but Mercury wasn't coperating so they theorised a planet that they'd missed which was throwing them off.
Given that canon 40K doesn't have Avernus I'm more than comfortable saying Emps did them too like he likely did the Geller field.
As for the reader well it doesn't strike me that they created it more Zeth threw stuff at the wall and got lucky at finding a psyker that could potentially use it while siphoning off emp's backwash.
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- Australia
The Emperor is a human so it still counts. Species of psykers was the navigators. Psy engine was individual people. Akashic Reader was the source of all knowledge thing.
This idea is laughable. Inventing technology happens as a result of science and knowledge, not from being a monkey on a typewriter.
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Doomed Wombat
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The emperor is about as inhuman as you can get.
Emp's creation, and that's the only one that could conceivably be by people other than emps and its a pity they never actually got the chance to see if it worked properly or instead just turned people into bees.
Given this is 40K I'm going with the bee option.
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I like your ideas here!
heres another one to add to the pile:
one of the semi-uncommon ideas about "magic"/similar in some worlds is that one of the requirements for doing is knowing about a law---not actually DOING something in reaction to that law mind you...just KNOWING it....with that law BEING that:
1): you can't do magic without knowing THIS law
so basically acting as a "password" to magic.
but lets extend this a little bit and connect it with your idea that the psychic-science that we know is the rules laid down by the old ones--->>> we already know that a portion of what makes a race powerful psykicly in a particular psychic skill is plain and simple history with it. and we know the old ones created some/many/most/possably-including-humanity with some degree of benevolent and desire for us to succed in some way...so they might have not just created us but also laid tools at our feet built into the warp. IE: they programmed the warp to respond to creatures that want to use it in some way, limited by what they say they WON'T do.
so maybe us just simply DECIDING that we are a race that does (X) makes us better at that thing so much that we are better off overall even att the cost of (other things) since we "discovered the password" and started using the warp the way the old ones wanted us to use it?
humanity has always been about looking at the universe to see what tools it gives us ( so we look and look and find that fire is a thing and start using it)....but in this case, the warp is inherently chaotic for us because we refuse to decide (either as an individual or as a species) how it should behave for us...it WANTS us to use it however we like.........but we don't fricking make up our mind.
....(course its ALREADY chaotic and is certainly permanently to some degree due to the chaos gods)
...so maybe what we need to do is take a telepathia action where we basically just "declare" that we as a race (or at least for now, just Avernus) is specialized in....something....right now we are kinda specialized into divination simply by us having rids which is not nothing.
I even recall that the eldar will do "paths of (X)" which is basically EXACTLY THIS. so maybe as a species, we could do a grand ritual which turns our species towards a particular psykic discipline....or alternatively, to a lessor degree, a smaller ritual that does the same for just the trust (or more likely, just avernus).
1): the law of narrative would be perfectly ok with allowing this, the only question is how good of a ritual we can make.
2): the law of cost would be ok since we would be giving up other specialties (certainly better then just letting random chance decide for us!)
3): the law of attraction would be ok since "all humans do X" is a pretty strong attraction rule for the warp to follow
the only issue is any such ritual could easilly be turned to chaos in some subtle (or not subtle) way via sabatoge.
1): you can't do magic without knowing THIS law
so basically acting as a "password" to magic.
but lets extend this a little bit and connect it with your idea that the psychic-science that we know is the rules laid down by the old ones--->>> we already know that a portion of what makes a race powerful psykicly in a particular psychic skill is plain and simple history with it. and we know the old ones created some/many/most/possably-including-humanity with some degree of benevolent and desire for us to succed in some way...so they might have not just created us but also laid tools at our feet built into the warp. IE: they programmed the warp to respond to creatures that want to use it in some way, limited by what they say they WON'T do.
so maybe us just simply DECIDING that we are a race that does (X) makes us better at that thing so much that we are better off overall even att the cost of (other things) since we "discovered the password" and started using the warp the way the old ones wanted us to use it?
humanity has always been about looking at the universe to see what tools it gives us ( so we look and look and find that fire is a thing and start using it)....but in this case, the warp is inherently chaotic for us because we refuse to decide (either as an individual or as a species) how it should behave for us...it WANTS us to use it however we like.........but we don't fricking make up our mind.
....(course its ALREADY chaotic and is certainly permanently to some degree due to the chaos gods)
...so maybe what we need to do is take a telepathia action where we basically just "declare" that we as a race (or at least for now, just Avernus) is specialized in....something....right now we are kinda specialized into divination simply by us having rids which is not nothing.
I even recall that the eldar will do "paths of (X)" which is basically EXACTLY THIS. so maybe as a species, we could do a grand ritual which turns our species towards a particular psykic discipline....or alternatively, to a lessor degree, a smaller ritual that does the same for just the trust (or more likely, just avernus).
1): the law of narrative would be perfectly ok with allowing this, the only question is how good of a ritual we can make.
2): the law of cost would be ok since we would be giving up other specialties (certainly better then just letting random chance decide for us!)
3): the law of attraction would be ok since "all humans do X" is a pretty strong attraction rule for the warp to follow
the only issue is any such ritual could easilly be turned to chaos in some subtle (or not subtle) way via sabatoge.
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Doomed Wombat
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1. For normal science possibly, for 40K science NAH that went out the window with the law of cost.
2. You do know a lot of science is creating a hypothesis, performing an experiment then tweaking it until you've determined either whether you were right and how, or whether no you're wrong and this is how you know this.
Yes, you are basing your ideas on previous knowledge and proven fact, so its certainly less messy than just throwing things at walls, but its not that far off.
So no it's not laughable, it's iterative.
Shard
One and Many
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- Malaysia
With the singular exception of Navigators, which were created by the unpsychic DAOT humanity (!), rationalized in Embers as access to Avernus, the rest of them are one-of things which are not really used per se. Source of all knowledge should have been able to recreate an STC and AFAIK it doesn't seem to be used for anything or was destroyed with no blueprints for replication.
I don't think a ritual that big is a good idea.. I do note that the Old Ones saw species as children to be nurtured to adulthood. It's possible that the 'ritual' is just us learning about the warp and integrating it into our society. If individuals progress on archetypes, there' likely an equivalent for entire species.. particularly seeing as 'Eldarity' and 'Humanity' are existent concepts in the warp.
Doomed Wombat
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Destroyed before it got to be used, so we've no idea whether or not this version of the thing actually worked this time.
Also navigators are almost certainly emps's work too.
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- western US
oh yeah, I totally agree that a species-wide ritual would be dangerous....individual only might be better for now (or maybe university-wide or MAYBE planet-wide). (I even edited in a bit where I mention this in my post...sorry for changing things around guys!...I do that alot when I get passioate about something online)
so maybe we should ask rid's/someone to look into putting together a modified plan for the telepatha university's where the training/lessons are modified to allow the students to put together their own ritual built out of their life (like the eldar do) that declares to the universe/immaterial what their specialty is (while still following minimum requirements for self-control/will power/safety of course). I'm guessing we already do this to a degree (as psykers label one-another by their specialties)....but I feel like we should be doing it MORE...create rituals that they can perform and encourage students to create additional ones unique to themselves to add their own version/twist. (all monitored for chaos-hints/tricks of course). this would even let the rituals eventually improve over time as people will look to their tutor's and history for ideas and examples....some ritual ideas become more popular and others less so.
edit: we could even make use of our already-present architype of our use of singing and wavelength-manipulation to have the rituals based off/built out of such steps. (so singing about how your going to use (insert psykic field) to (insert statement about helping humanity/fight chaos/whatever) exactly (X) times every (Y units of time) and ensuring that the concepts that you tie to the ritual build on eachother.
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