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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%

  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%
  • Total voters
    738
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Nurgle said:
The order of researching psychic frequency and resonance discovery and implementation would help figure psychic frequencies, resonances, war echos and give a boost to research using them. Such as the chaos research ork frequencies and so on. Since the biggest thing we have Tamia doing is the chaos research ,counter frequencies , and such techniques it would help with the DC's. Also help with Ridicully with the immense backlog he has.
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There's only a few Chaos frequencies actions left, so like.. total overkill and about 6 turns too late?
 
Nurgle said:
The order of researching psychic frequency and resonance discovery and implementation would help figure psychic frequencies, resonances, war echos and give a boost to research using them. Such as the chaos research ork frequencies and so on. Since the biggest thing we have Tamia doing is the chaos research ,counter frequencies , and such techniques it would help with the DC's. Also help with Ridicully with the immense backlog he has.
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Well, found Reynal's post. It has a much better argument for it.

(And a lot more elaboration.)
 
@Shard can you have Xavier set up the Order of Resonances? Tamia's our best researcher and I don't really like the idea of her doing this since setting up orders is one of those things any of our grandmasters can do. This will also let us get this Order set up at the end of this turn. We can have Xavier start Royal Alkahestry right at the start of next turn.
 
StormySky said:
@Shard can you have Xavier set up the Order of Resonances? Tamia's our best researcher and I don't really like the idea of her doing this since setting up orders is one of those things any of our grandmasters can do. This will also let us get this Order set up at the end of this turn. We can have Xavier start Royal Alkahestry right at the start of next turn.
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I had the same thought till I realized that setting the order up would help Tamia. Also Royal Alkehestry is one of those choices that if it succeeds would help us tremendously.
 
Nurgle said:
I had the same thought till I realized that setting the order up would help Tamia. Also Royal Alkehestry is one of those choices that if it succeeds would help us tremendously.
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Why would Tamia doing it in particular help? Wouldn't having an Order set up provide benefited regardless? Also, we are doing Royal Alkahestry next turn. We're just delaying it a bit.
 
Dragon_352 said:
I think I like Nurgle's plan the best by a good margin....but I REALLY don't like the flaws of thunder thing, both IC and OOC

OOC: anything that a game's DM doesn't like (and I recall Durin has said he regrets giving us the action) (even if not enough to force-remove it) is not something I like almost on principle. (and for practical reasons as below...)

IC: ...also he has stated if I recall correctly that it might not even pay off....so we spend however many decades on the first part and get nothing or near-nothing......move on to the next multi decade part and then the next....who knows how many times and each time getting very little.....

....and then we might not even get anything for it!

the fact that the payoff is so uncertain means that they would have to be such a hard-upgrade over SM's for it to statistically be worth it. So the average expected payoff is just so low except under such extreme circumstances that it's just not believable.

the idea that we can take TW's, an prototype-design of a divine/near-divine level bio-engineer, and add something that would outweigh the additions that a near-divine level warp-engineer (who happens to be the same person) added to the same design (to get the SM's) and even sacrificed part of his near-divine level warp-nature to empower them? it's just not reasonable even if we could afford to throw as much time as emp's probably did (which I don't think we can)

instead, is there some creature or another that we could look into instead? we do have a long pile up I believe. and even if they are pretty inconsistent researches, they are much shorter then the mega-tech line that the thunder-line is and so won't tie our biologis up for decades/centurys before payoff (that, again, might not even exist!)

OOC 2: I would also note that durin not liking them is probably more cause to suspect that they might not pay off since DM's are far more forgiving/rewarding with actions if they like the action. (although durin does seem the type to be fair, I don't think anyone can be perfectly fair so its still at least somewhat relevent to consider.)
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Firstly Durin said he regretted giving us the Annals because he made TWs "too good" and due to the reaction of some players to them. That's it.

Second, doing anything to tune up the TWs gives us a good return since we are starting to make them en mass. Once we know all we can about fixing the flaws we can make an informed decision about applying Alkahestral Augments to them. Making them TW 2.0s, something only Avernus could produce due to access to Alkahestral materials. They do not have to be an upgrade over Astartes to be worth it, nor do I think they ever will be. What we will get is an increasingly deadly mass producible elite that can take some of the burden off Astartes in war time. Especially when it relates to breakthroughs as we all saw.

Finally I trust Durin to be 100% fair with the action chain. That's just the kind of GM he has repeatedly shown himself to be.
 
[X] Plan Shard T139

I really want the materials order, but I want the bolehs spiders studdied more.

@Shard could I convince you do do the materaisl order? its the kind of thing that the eariler you take it the better.
 
Azgrin said:
Firstly Durin said he regretted giving us the Annals because he made TWs "too good" and due to the reaction of some players to them. That's it.
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Thats not what I recall. also, even if thats true. it would give impedus that the TW's are balanced by them not being reasonably upgradable.

Azgrin said:
Second, doing anything to tune up the TWs gives us a good return since we are starting to make them en mass. Once we know all we can about fixing the flaws we can make an informed decision about applying Alkahestral Augments to them. Making them TW 2.0s, something only Avernus could produce due to access to Alkahestral materials. They do not have to be an upgrade over Astartes to be worth it, nor do I think they ever will be. What we will get is an increasingly deadly mass producible elite that can take some of the burden off Astartes in war time. Especially when it relates to breakthroughs as we all saw.
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we are not going to be able to improve on emp's work. hes a transcendent learning psyker. the fact that we have Alkahestral augments gives us a CHANCE but I still doubt it would be enough to make up for the fact that our biologis is not even a fricking paragon learning. (low chance of payoff)

and the fact that we are using them enmass is just from the fact that they are very good as-is....doesn't mean a slow and expensive (action wise, which is the biggest issue for our research) will be worth it.

just THIS research will eat 22 years of research....just THIS one. will it give us anything? probably not cas its only part 1 and will only tell us what CAN be fixed...so we then will be obligated to pour ANOTHER 20-sum years into it......

so all-told we will have to put in 40-50 years of research MINIMUM into this....getting NOTHING (or near-nothing, which might as well be the same thing considering just how much time this is) the entire time ....and the upgrade at BEST is going to be small and at worst gives us nothing. and keep in mind that if we find anything we want to research in the meantime, we will only have one slot to do it in....and across 50+ years we are likely to regret having only one slot to do such things. (so huge cost.)

(huge cost (action wise)) * (low chance of payoff) === very much not worth it (except unless the payoff is so high that it would unbalance the quest with OP TW's....which durin won't do because he knows how balance works)

Azgrin said:
Finally I trust Durin to be 100% fair with the action chain. That's just the kind of GM he has repeatedly shown himself to be.
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durin does seem like he would do his best.....but nobody CAN be perfectly unbiased, its psychologically impossible. the fact is that he is not going to be very interested in the benefits of the research as he hates TW's. look at the operation where we sent off vlad to steal the chaos fleet, I'm pretty sure durin liked the idea and thought it was creative and undoubtedly gave it better DC (also, he diden't have to have the elves stack their bonus's for free and offer us favors for this) as a result both because he wants to reward creative thinking and because he likes the idea/knows its not unreasonable in this verse dispite how counter-intuitive it being such is.

oh, and.
[X] Plan Shard T139
 
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Adhoc vote count started by xXxBlueViperxXx on Oct 23, 2019 at 1:36 PM, finished with 294 posts and 33 votes.
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Dragon_352 said:
Thats not what I recall. also, even if thats true. it would give impedus that the TW's are balanced by them not being reasonably upgradable.


we are not going to be able to improve on emp's work. hes a transcendent learning psyker. the fact that we have Alkahestral augments gives us a CHANCE but I still doubt it would be enough to make up for the fact that our biologis is not even a fricking paragon learning. (low chance of payoff)

and the fact that we are using them enmass is just from the fact that they are very good as-is....doesn't mean a slow and expensive (action wise, which is the biggest issue for our research) will be worth it.

just THIS research will eat 22 years of research....just THIS one. will it give us anything? probably not cas its only part 1 and will only tell us what CAN be fixed...so we then will be obligated to pour ANOTHER 20-sum years into it......

so all-told we will have to put in 40-50 years of research MINIMUM into this....getting NOTHING the entire time ....and the upgrade at BEST is going to be small and at worst gives us nothing. and keep in mind that if we find anything we want to research in the meantime, we will only have one slot to do it in....and across 50+ years we are likely to regret having only one slot to do such things. (so huge cost.)

(huge cost (action wise)) * (low chance of payoff) === very much not worth it unless the payoff is so high that it would unbalance the quest with OP TW's....which durin won't do.


durin does seem like he would do his best.....but nobody CAN be perfectly unbiased, its psychologically impossible. the fact is that he is not going to be very interested in the benefits of the research as he hates TW's. look at the operation where we sent off vlad to steal the chaos fleet, I'm pretty sure durin liked the idea and thought it was creative and undoubtedly gave it better DC as a result.

oh, and.
[X] Plan Shard T139
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It is true, word of Durin and all.

Remember that the Emperor, much as I like the guy, is not perfect. The TWs were a rush job and prototype for the Astartes project. Said Astartes are capable of being upgraded despite far more care being put in their design thanks to Cawl. The Big E's work is not flawless and can be improved, that's just a fact. It's also better than a chance Alkahestry will work on TWs, since they are purely physical augments which explicitly leaves room for a Warp enhancement to be added on.

Prove the upgrades will be small like you claimed, two of the flaws that may be able to be fixed (lifespan and reaction speed) are huge boost to TW efficiency.
 
Dragon_352 said:
Thats not what I recall. also, even if thats true. it would give impedus that the TW's are balanced by them not being reasonably upgradable.


we are not going to be able to improve on emp's work. hes a transcendent learning psyker. the fact that we have Alkahestral augments gives us a CHANCE but I still doubt it would be enough to make up for the fact that our biologis is not even a fricking paragon learning. (low chance of payoff)

and the fact that we are using them enmass is just from the fact that they are very good as-is....doesn't mean a slow and expensive (action wise, which is the biggest issue for our research) will be worth it.

just THIS research will eat 22 years of research....just THIS one. will it give us anything? probably not cas its only part 1 and will only tell us what CAN be fixed...so we then will be obligated to pour ANOTHER 20-sum years into it......

so all-told we will have to put in 40-50 years of research MINIMUM into this....getting NOTHING the entire time ....and the upgrade at BEST is going to be small and at worst gives us nothing. and keep in mind that if we find anything we want to research in the meantime, we will only have one slot to do it in....and across 50+ years we are likely to regret having only one slot to do such things. (so huge cost.)

(huge cost (action wise)) * (low chance of payoff) === very much not worth it unless the payoff is so high that it would unbalance the quest with OP TW's....which durin won't do.


durin does seem like he would do his best.....but nobody CAN be perfectly unbiased, its psychologically impossible. the fact is that he is not going to be very interested in the benefits of the research as he hates TW's. look at the operation where we sent off vlad to steal the chaos fleet, I'm pretty sure durin liked the idea and thought it was creative and undoubtedly gave it better DC as a result.

oh, and.
[X] Plan Shard T139
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Making a lot of assumptions there. One of the things I repeatedly see is people always jumping on the Emperor's D and acting like no one can improve upon his work like he was the absolute best at everything. This despite ignoring the fact that the Emperor did in fact also had help with making the Space Marines IIRC and in canon Cawl was able to improve upon the Astartes after over ten thousand years of research.

I get that people are hesitant about doing the TW research which is why I suggested the comprimise that we should see about getting Cawl to come to Avernus since it was agreed upon by a lot of people that him being on Avernus would be better for everyone since it would help with his research and his specialty being in super soldiers means that he would be perfect to be the one to do the TWs research.
 
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