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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

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Doomed Wombat said:
And we are not specialists in it, there are other alien species that have force weapons and a lot of our psytech advancements are due exclusvely to outside assistance like Emps.

AI on the other hand is something really unique to us.
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What? No it isn't, the Necron have AI. And considering how advanced Tau AI technology was a few thousand years ago, and the only probably reasons why they haven't improved upon it are,
  1. They fought Necron and learned how easily the crypteks can take control of automated systems.
  2. They fought Chaos and learned how easily daemons can possess unshielded AI.
  3. They finally learned enough about human history to learn about the Iron Men rebellion and how it crippled human civilization.
Any of those would be enough to slow Tau AI development until they developed a way to shield their AI from being subverted.
 
GhostKing 666 said:
What? No it isn't, the Necron have AI. And considering how advanced Tau AI technology was a few thousand years ago, and the only probably reasons why they haven't improved upon it are,
  1. They fought Necron and learned how easily the crypteks can take control of automated systems.
  2. They fought Chaos and learned how easily daemons can possess unshielded AI.
  3. They finally learned enough about human history to learn about the Iron Men rebellion and how it crippled human civilization.
Any of those would be enough to slow Tau AI development until they developed a way to shield their AI from being subverted.
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The Sarkoni Emperor is both so small and so weird that I discounted it out of hand. It appeared once and neither it or master control programmes have appeared since, their role being taken by the Tirarch Praetorians. After all why would the species that basically are all AI create new AI, especially one so proud.

As for the latter the Tau are apparently at the point of having smart VI/Dumb AI according to Durin, so that strikes me as more hard than anything else, not deliberate slowing down, given that its the Tau.

Also that second point erks me, we have no data to suggest that is the case, the other two are possible, but this is the Tau we're talking about, I like em, but they do the dumbest things on occasion and do tend to act...well like questers. Just because it happened to other people doesn't mean it will happen to them.

Edit

In fact on the second point we have evidence to the contrary in the blood tide, but it is only one data point and of course is from those codex's...Then again so is the Sarkoni Emperor.
 
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agumentic said:
For the sake of accuracy, we can do long distance travel, we just need to move in a really big force if we want to establish a big base.
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Long distance travel of a large enough force to get there without being ripped apart.

Technically anyone can still do long distance travel, but proportionally we're back to the age of sail in terms of travel times for a lot of people and things.

Even the well, which had the best equipment, the best knowledge and everything took what 3 years and back from Rosklide and lost almost everything except the Well and a few escorts?

Long range travel is really hard ATM.
 
Enerael said:
How does that mesh with AIs being vulnerable because they dont have one?
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+ Machine Spirits in the mix throwing things off.

I personally don't believe machine spirits are a thing, but since we can create them like Tranth did for the Titan I personally believe they are powerful VI.

And Titans have thrown off daemons in the past.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
+ Machine Spirits in the mix throwing things off.

I personally don't believe machine spirits are a thing, but since we can create them like Tranth did for the Titan I personally believe they are powerful VI.

And Titans have thrown off daemons in the past.
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It is my understanding that the term machine spirit is used both for programming (mind) and soul of the machine.

Everything has an echo in the Warp, so every machine has a soul, a "spirit". Same as every tree or rock. Its just the strength and "shape" that varies.
 
Enerael said:
It is my understanding that the term machine spirit is used both for programming (mind) and soul of the machine.

Everything has an echo in the Warp, so every machine has a soul, a "spirit". Same as every tree or rock. Its just the strength and "shape" that varies.
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Aye, but the machine spirit belief is one held only by the admech.

That ain't long enough or big enough to give something an imprint or an actual soul.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
As for the latter the Tau are apparently at the point of having smart VI/Dumb AI according to Durin, so that strikes me as more hard than anything else, not deliberate slowing down, given that its the Tau.
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Most Tau Drones can be networked together to serve as a team or squadron. This significantly increases and ramps up the intelligence and processing speed of all the Drones in the network, and their ability for independent action. Normally a Drone would require regular orders from its Tau master to operate at maximum efficiency, but several Drones acting together become capable of acting independently for long periods of time without the need for Tau controllers. It is possible for these squadrons to perform surprisingly impressive tactical feats. Four Drones is the minimum number required to form a fully effective self-aware network, whilst twelve is usually the maximum number of Drones deployed in a single squadron. The most common type of Tau Drone networked into such squadrons are Gun Drones, although certain Gun Drones in a squadron have sometimes been upgraded to carry a Marker Light or possibly a Shield Generator. In very rare instances, entire squadrons have been so altered -- such as the Shield Drone barrier that was used with success in the great tank duels of the Almo'th Plains, or Commander Shadowsun's barrage of Marker Lights from a Marker Drone squadron that helped wipe out Ork infantry ensconced in the ruins of the Cha'nel colony.
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Considering that Tau Drone technology back in the 41st millennium was apparently on par with the Geth before they became sentient, I'm surprised that the Tau haven't made Geth style AI by accident yet.
 
Enerael said:
It is my understanding that inanimate matter without any mind involved has a warp imprint too.

Just, generally pretty weak.
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Extremely weak and as far as I can tell very limited in what the imprint is.

Silver for example is purifying. But machines?

Huh...IDEA!

GhostKing 666 said:
Considering that Tau Drone technology back in the 41st millennium was apparently on par with the Geth before they became sentient, I'm surprised that the Tau haven't made Geth style AI by accident yet.
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This isn't mass effect.

The Embers Men of Iron for example were actual Geth, in fact Geth post Legion's sacrifice even, but I imagine getting from VI to AI is a lot harder.

Combine with that even many species more advanced than that tau didn't leave behind AI.
 
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this is how I think daot AI work based on what I know and the fanon that makes the most sense while staying true to canon

AI fall in three areas

the men of gold
advanced machine learning smart VI/ dump AI and sup sapient AI (machine spirits) ,in 40k its clear that making a fully sapient AI to be very very hard which would explain why the tau dont have them ,they were already more advanced the the Imperium at M41 this is M46 and they still dont have them

the men of stone
mankinds first successful try in the field of fully sapient AI , in my headcanon the men of stone were more silicon based lifeforms (hence the name stone) than machine which technically made them living beings and there for have souls , which is why they sided with mankind in the iron war and admech dogma is less hostile towards them

the men of iron
were mankinds latest try in the field of AI this time to make a 100% machine fully sapient AI there for not having souls and the rest is history


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if any one has input to add , I am all ears
 
So, I was thinking about inanimate imprints, and...

What about stars?

They are the source of life and very often reverence throughout the universe. One would think that they would have a massive conceptual weight.

Perhaps that's what that Star Essence we plan to research is? And what the C'tan were eating? The inanimate souls of stars?

It would make a lot of sense, what with the C'tan able to eat sophont souls and finding them tastier. More flavor, less power I would imagine.
 
mmgaballah said:
the men of gold
advanced machine learning smart VI/ dump AI and sup sapient AI (machine spirits) ,in 40k its clear that making a fully sapient AI to be very very hard which would explain why the tau dont have them ,they were already more advanced the the Imperium at M41 this is M46 and they still dont have them
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In embers at least the MoG were apparently a late secret invention during the War of Iron on which Muspelheim claims to have no knowledge.

Enerael said:
Perhaps that's what that Star Essence we plan to research is? And what the C'tan were eating? The inanimate souls of stars?
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Yeah that was the conclusion I came to earlier.

It makes sense too, every species since the dawn of time pretty much knows and associates with the stars.

Even emps has associations with em.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
Aye, but the machine spirit belief is one held only by the admech.

That ain't long enough or big enough to give something an imprint or an actual soul.
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Something to keep in mind - the AdMech believes in the notion. The entire AdMech, galaxy wide, with most in the Imperium also buying into the concept. For over ten thousand years.

Given how the Warp works, the collective belief in the concept for so long makes me reluctant to discount the concept. Likely machine spirits do exist as a thing in the Warp, though they're rather variable. Things like age, complexity, frequency and importance of use, and level of veneration all likely affect the power and complexity of the machiy spirit. Most are likely equivalent to dumb animals, but something like a really old Titan may well have a strong soul and awareness as a result.

The funniest thing is that this belief is largely a human only one, and that it's specifically aimed at human made tech. It may well be the case that only human made tech has machine spirits, and pure xenotech doesn't.
 
Enjou said:
Something to keep in mind - the AdMech believes in the notion. The entire AdMech, galaxy wide, with most in the Imperium also buying into the concept. For over ten thousand years.

Given how the Warp works, the collective belief in the concept for so long makes me reluctant to discount the concept. Likely machine spirits do exist as a thing in the Warp, though they're rather variable. Things like age, complexity, frequency and importance of use, and level of veneration all likely affect the power and complexity of the machiy spirit. Most are likely equivalent to dumb animals, but something like a really old Titan may well have a strong soul and awareness as a result.

The funniest thing is that this belief is largely a human only one, and that it's specifically aimed at human made tech. It may well be the case that only human made tech has machine spirits, and pure xenotech doesn't.
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Thing is I very much doubt that 10,000 years and the admech are enough to create something like that.

The human belief in the purity of silver has been a common constant all over the world since very ancient times due to priority in trade, anti bacterial properties and repulsion of the supernatural (LONG before the modern vampire and werewolf).

I'd imagine silver because of its nature has had similar beliefs galaxy wide for a very long time. Probably before humans even evolved.

Same with Steel, we know from our research into true steel has associations with superior weapons because it was the best stuff in the early stages of most species history and that association remains long after better alternatives are discovered.

But, 10,000 years is not very long by the standards of the galaxy and the admech make up a minuscule portion of humanity compared to how many there are in the Imperium. To say nothing of the fact that there are plenty of humans not part of the Imperium. The majority of humans don't know what a machine spirit is.

I can see titans as an exception, because they are meant to be the direct avatars of the Admech's god and thus idols of their worship, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go, my toaster is not malfunctioning because it has a small animalistic spirit inside it that is angry with me, its malfunctioning because something has broken.
 
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Doomed Wombat said:
Thing is I very much doubt that 10,000 years and the admech are enough to create something like that.

The human belief in the purity of silver has been a common constant all over the world since very ancient times due to priority in trade, anti bacterial properties and repulsion of the supernatural (LONG before the modern vampire and werewolf).

I'd imagine silver because of its nature has had similar beliefs galaxy wide for a very long time. Probably before humans even evolved.

Same with Steel, we know from our research into true steel has associations with superior weapons because it was the best stuff in the early stages of most species history and that association remains long after better alternatives are discovered.

But, 10,000 years is not very long by the standards of the galaxy and the admech make up a minuscule portion of humanity compared to how many there are in the Imperium. To say nothing of the fact that there are plenty of humans not part of the Imperium. The majority of humans don't know what a machine spirit is.

I can see titans as an exception, because they are meant to be the direct avatars of the Admech's god and thus idols of their worship, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go, my toaster is not malfunctioning because it has a small animalistic spirit inside it that is angry with me, its malfunctioning because something has broken.
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Your toaster, if it were to have a machine spirit, would likely be the machine spirit equivalent of an amoeaba. But it may not even be considered to have one, due to the relative simplicity of the machine in question.
Doomed Wombat said:
Thing is I very much doubt that 10,000 years and the admech are enough to create something like that.

The human belief in the purity of silver has been a common constant all over the world since very ancient times due to priority in trade, anti bacterial properties and repulsion of the supernatural (LONG before the modern vampire and werewolf).

I'd imagine silver because of its nature has had similar beliefs galaxy wide for a very long time. Probably before humans even evolved.

Same with Steel, we know from our research into true steel has associations with superior weapons because it was the best stuff in the early stages of most species history and that association remains long after better alternatives are discovered.

But, 10,000 years is not very long by the standards of the galaxy and the admech make up a minuscule portion of humanity compared to how many there are in the Imperium. To say nothing of the fact that there are plenty of humans not part of the Imperium. The majority of humans don't know what a machine spirit is.

I can see titans as an exception, because they are meant to be the direct avatars of the Admech's god and thus idols of their worship, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go, my toaster is not malfunctioning because it has a small animalistic spirit inside it that is angry with me, its malfunctioning because something has broken.
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Quantity of belief matters a lot here. The vast majority in a galaxy spanning empire that has a quadrillion people for ten thousand years is bound to have a noteworthy effect.

Now, as far as your toaster goes it would likely have the machine spirit equivalent of an amoeaba, if it even has one. Even the AdMech probably doesn't bother venerating a toaster, memes aside, and it would probably be thrown out and replaced rather than given maintenance rituals when it breaks down.

And the existence of machine spirits wouldn't be mutually exclusive with materium based reasons for breakdowns and maintenance. They would just change things like probability related to that. A machine getting purely mundane maintenance without the addition of ritual could potentially break down more often if it has a machine spirit, while a properly venerated one might break down less. The effects in question may well be rather minor, but they may well exist given other Warp effects.
 
We do know at least Land Raiders can develop Machine Spirits, I'll note.

Rynn's Might. Which got its crew killed, proceeded to charge the Orks, gank the Warboss, empty its ammo, then look helpless to lure more Orks in to loot da shiny wagon, then explode itself.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
But, 10,000 years is not very long by the standards of the galaxy and the admech make up a minuscule portion of humanity compared to how many there are in the Imperium. To say nothing of the fact that there are plenty of humans not part of the Imperium. The majority of humans don't know what a machine spirit is.
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point of order, a single sector can pray a god into existence in century, a single world can do it in a few thousand years. The admech population wise was at least a sectors worth of people. On top of that "machine spirts exist" was a common belief for the entire imperrium, and i'm pretty sure guardsmen thought of gear maintenance as a ritual to appease the machine spirit. that is enough to create a small god many times over.

Its likely not to the point where every lasgun and cogitator has a guardian warp entity, but more likely than not machine spirit is a common species of warp entity.
 
ArchAIngel said:
We do know at least Land Raiders can develop Machine Spirits, I'll note.

Rynn's Might. Which got its crew killed, proceeded to charge the Orks, gank the Warboss, empty its ammo, then look helpless to lure more Orks in to loot da shiny wagon, then explode itself.
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Old VIs can get up to weird things too though.

It is entirely possible for no soul stuff to have been involved in that.

Thus the Machine Spirit confusion.
 
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ArchAIngel said:
We do know at least Land Raiders can develop Machine Spirits, I'll note.

Rynn's Might. Which got its crew killed, proceeded to charge the Orks, gank the Warboss, empty its ammo, then look helpless to lure more Orks in to loot da shiny wagon, then explode itself.
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That's messy actually, the Landraider has always been noted to have near heretically advanced coginators which only gets ignored because "sacred STC" the line between AI near AI and Advanced Machine Spirit is one Geedubs has explicitly kept vague.
 
Speaking of machine spirits, does anyone know the source of this lore snippet? There was an incident where the Tau Earth Caste scientists made a copy of an Imperial Lascannon, identical down to the last molecule, and yet test-firing revealed to the baffled Tau that its performance was markedly inferior to the Imperial original.

The implication was that the AdMech's priest-artisan approach to tech maintenance was imbuing their tech with a form of Warp presence (ie. machine spirit) that allowed the machines to perform past their physical limitations.
 
Enjou said:
Your toaster, if it were to have a machine spirit, would likely be the machine spirit equivalent of an amoeaba. But it may not even be considered to have one, due to the relative simplicity of the machine in question.


Quantity of belief matters a lot here. The vast majority in a galaxy spanning empire that has a quadrillion people for ten thousand years is bound to have a noteworthy effect.

Now, as far as your toaster goes it would likely have the machine spirit equivalent of an amoeaba, if it even has one. Even the AdMech probably doesn't bother venerating a toaster, memes aside, and it would probably be thrown out and replaced rather than given maintenance rituals when it breaks down.

And the existence of machine spirits wouldn't be mutually exclusive with materium based reasons for breakdowns and maintenance. They would just change things like probability related to that. A machine getting purely mundane maintenance without the addition of ritual could potentially break down more often if it has a machine spirit, while a properly venerated one might break down less. The effects in question may well be rather minor, but they may well exist given other Warp effects.
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Did you mean to quote that twice?

I think something went wrong with your post.

As for that toaster argument, the admech have long rituals dedicated to the proper upkeep of doors, the mech do not throw out or replace machines no matter how small and there's far from enough of them they've not been around long enough to give everything a soul no matter how amoeba like, to say nothing of the fact anything that close to a warp entity would get eaten, because as far as I can tell warp beings do not appear incarnate in objects.

random_npc said:
Its likely not to the point where every lasgun and cogitator has a guardian warp entity, but more likely than not machine spirit is a common species of warp entity.
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If it were a species of common warp entity then those warp entities are getting ****ing eaten by every demon that comes along looking for a snack. If that is the case the mechanicus must be annihilated to stop feeding the trolls.

HanEmpire said:
Speaking of machine spirits, does anyone know the source of this lore snippet? There was an incident where the Tau Earth Caste scientists made a copy of an Imperial Lascannon, identical down to the last molecule, and yet test-firing revealed to the baffled Tau that its performance was markedly inferior to the Imperial original.

The implication was that the AdMech's priest-artisan approach to tech maintenance was imbuing their tech with a form of Warp presence (ie. machine spirit) that allowed the machines to perform past their physical limitations.
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I'd ask which edition that's from.

I'd also check then to see if the Admech are ****ing orks, because that is literally what Ork tech does when not around orks.

If that is the case (a case I very much doubt) then the Imperium is even worse than I thought it was.
 
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