The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

[Doomed Wombat]

@Enjou @Nurgle I'll do a preliminary tabulation of proposals if you want?

1. Trust economic reorganisation: Credit union, increased taxes, more transport ships, more subsidies.
2. Trust Subsector Reorganisation: Current plans N/A (personal plan mini trusts/mini councils)
3i. Eldar tech trade: At a minimum ask what they would want in exchange for it. If minor (say 10 regiments of Helguard and psykers to act as deniable assets Ridcully's free divination slot for X number of turns) go forward with instantly, if something too big for us to go forward with instantly quick decision can be made by Security council, Inquisition, admech and other relevant peoples to see if it should happen*. First contact should either be Vulkan or Ultramar as both are most directly in the line of fire.
3ii. Also propose to ask the Eldar directly to give technology as they are guaranteed to have some stored up which they use to build up human polities (unlikely to be gotten, but eh).
3iii. Also ask if they have any practical alternate FTL methods (this is just something I'm adding in, reminder IIRC the Trust is apparently accepting of an alternate FTL form even from Xenos which makes sense. Doesn't mean the Eldar have one.)
4. Helguard subsidies.
5. Chosen system investigation and application to the entire Trust to improve standards of Elites.
6. Possible development of the Blood Dragons?

*REMINDER Word of God is that the reason the Eldar are asking for payment is because they are desperate for as many allies as they can get, my understanding is that this is also IC knowledge thanks to Ridcully's divination of them so technically a "payment" is a win, win for us especially given Durin's recent remarks.

@Enjou @Nurgle this seem about right...

 

[Nurgle]

I will make another plan for proposals. Unless people want one giant bloated plan.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

I will make another plan for proposals. Unless people want one giant bloated plan.

Click to shrink...

Depends on whether or not people are happy with taking the two big options or not.

If they are then one big plan, if not two plans.

 

[Enjou]

Typically for these people vote on individual proposals rather than by plan.

 

[Nurgle]

Really I think it is the Eldar proposal that needs to be brought up, and closer ties and possible integration with the Blood Dragons. Everything else is going to be covered by government and financial reform.

 

[inverted_helix]

I'm wondering if people have considered how ridiculously expensive Super Heavy defenses are. That's Avernus' current defense level.

This meeting has been all about budgets reaching the breaking point. Vanaheim would bear the biggest burden in this proposed upgrade, and it has the highest debt in the Trust already. Vanaheim has been all about boosting the naval capacity of the Trust and it has cost them heavily. They have the largest navy and have contributed much of the Trust navy, but it's at the cost of incredible debt. Now you want to shovel an enormous burden on them. While we're trying to get subsidies for more helguard, which to be honest are not nearly so large a contribution to the Trust as Vanaheim's naval efforts.

I would propose a compromise instead:

Every colony to have at least very heavy ground defences and 10 Defence Stations, for each other world to have at least very heavy ground defences and 50 Defence Stations, and for PDF to be at least 3% of the population and have a minimum skill level that approaches that of the Cadians (+100).


This will maintain the very heavy ground defenses in the colonies, the higher defense stations, and the skill level of the PDF in the higher grade plan, while the very heavy ground defenses and lower population % in the PDF of the lower plan. It also adds on a few defence stations to the requirements for colonies to block tiny raiding forces from landing or destroying infrastructure. Higher skill level is easier to meet on PDF than % population given our restrictions because % of population eats into economies badly and we need the economic output to support our military spending. This will be far more affordable for Vanaheim, while still retaining much of the benefits of the higher level plan. I'm actually not sure on adding the defence stations to colonies though, not sure how affordable that is for a colony's budget with the Very Heavy ground defenses, might have to drop that.

I know there's a temptation not to care about the burden we place on other planets, but given Vanaheim is pretty much the only world contributing more than its fair share to the defense of the Trust as a whole, I feel that they deserve such consideration.

 

[Nurgle]

I'm wondering if people have considered how ridiculously expensive Super Heavy defenses are. That's Avernus' current defense level.

This meeting has been all about budgets reaching the breaking point. Vanaheim would bear the biggest burden in this proposed upgrade, and it has the highest debt in the Trust already. Vanaheim has been all about boosting the naval capacity of the Trust and it has cost them heavily. They have the largest navy and have contributed much of the Trust navy, but it's at the cost of incredible debt. Now you want to shovel an enormous burden on them. While we're trying to get subsidies for more helguard, which to be honest are not nearly so large a contribution to the Trust as Vanaheim's naval efforts.

I would propose a compromise instead:

Every colony to have at least very heavy ground defences and 10 Defence Stations, for each other world to have at least very heavy ground defences and 50 Defence Stations, and for PDF to be at least 3% of the population and have a minimum skill level that approaches that of the Cadians (+100).


This will maintain the very heavy ground defenses in the colonies, the higher defense stations, and the skill level of the PDF in the higher grade plan, while the very heavy ground defenses and lower population % in the PDF of the lower plan. It also adds on a few defence stations to the requirements for colonies to block tiny raiding forces from landing or destroying infrastructure. Higher skill level is easier to meet on PDF than % population given our restrictions because % of population eats into economies badly and we need the economic output to support our military spending. This will be far more affordable for Vanaheim, while still retaining much of the benefits of the higher level plan.

I know there's a temptation not to care about the burden we place on other planets, but given Vanaheim is pretty much the only world contributing more than its fair share to the defense of the Trust as a whole, I feel that they deserve such consideration.

Click to shrink...

I thought about that too but raising the rebate or give Vanaheim a special dispensation on the tithe would greatly help with that burden. As well as the fact that raising the defense levels and putting more people in the PDF can further help the trust even more than they are doing already. These is the end times and from the way Durin is talking we are going to be facing even greater problems. Turoq is a serious threat to the trust and other planets do not have the security forces that Avernus has or the defenses in case cultist take over. What I am trying to get at is that defenses need to be expanded even more.

Edit also the trust greatly subsidies the shipyards over Vanaheim.

edit did not want to do a double post.
@Enjou what do you think about these too?
[] propose contacting the eldar to inform them of the dangers Ridcully has divined as well as ask for webway access to contact other Human Polities. Also ask about other forms of ftl that the eldar would be willing to trade for and if they have any human tech stashes they be willing to trade for. These will be to just find out what they want and any decisions will de decided upon the council.
- [] Propose closer ties with dragon's nest, as well as helping to upgrade their infrastructure and any technical assistance they need. Material and Finacial assistance will be discussed with the Blood Dragon's. With talks about possible integration of the Blood dragon's and their protectorate into the Trust.

 

[inverted_helix]

I thought about that too but raising the rebate or give Vanaheim a special dispensation on the tithe would greatly help with that burden. As well as the fact that raising the defense levels and putting more people in the PDF can further help the trust even more than they are doing already. These is the end times and from the way Durin is talking we are going to be facing even greater problems. Turoq is a serious threat to the trust and other planets do not have the security forces that Avernus has or the defenses in case cultist take over. What I am trying to get at is that defenses need to be expanded even more.

Click to shrink...

I'd rather put pressure on Svartalfheim, Niflheim, and Muspelheim to contribute more to the Trust than try to extract even more from Vanaheim.

These aren't the end times. Durin has been talking about this being book one of three. We're in this for the long haul. Building up more military now at the cost of destroying our economy is a very short term gain at the cost of long term pain. We need to keep our economy intact because there's a tremendous way to go, and an intact economy provides more in the long run. We have to look at sustainable growth, not sacrifice everything for the short term tactics, because things will continue getting worse in the future, they are not at their lowest.

Edit also the trust greatly subsidies the shipyards over Vanaheim.

Click to shrink...

Shipyards aren't really the same as the massive fleet they've been putting out.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Really I think it is the Eldar proposal that needs to be brought up, and closer ties and possible integration with the Blood Dragons. Everything else is going to be covered by government and financial reform.

Click to shrink...

Eldar Proposal

In order to maintain our advantages and grow stronger in the face of overwhelming odds as fast as possible we propose that we contact other known surviving polities by means of the Eldar Webway and exchange technology with them.

Our current understanding of the situation is that there are three major polities

1. Vulkan's Imperium Quartius the strongest, with a Primarch at its head that is going to rise to a preeminent position of power in the galaxy. A wealth of ancient knowledge and power
2. The Imperium Tertius or Ultramar. On the front line of the Destroyer's return with thousands of chapters calling it home.
3. The Forge Realm of Callamus: Made of hundreds of Forge Worlds this realm has survived to become one of the largest in Segmentum Tempestus and has doubtless reclaimed a vast array of ancient technology.

All three of these realms benefit from our assistance, Vulkan can appear properly and claim more territory, Ultramar needs it if it is to survive the wrath of the C'tan and according to our divinations Callamus is stretched to its limits on all fronts. We also benefit securing additional technology and techniques.

The obvious problem with this is that our technology will be stolen quicker, but given our divination of Asdrubal Vect Chaos is about to gain possess of weapons surpassing even ours in deadlines. These polities will need more advantages as will we.

While the Eldar will require payment, Ridcully's divinations suggest that this is because they are desperate for any assistance they can acquire, thus if by paying we not only strengthen ourselves, strengthen our fellow survivors and stop threats to the galaxy as a whole I consider that a bargain.

In addition, if amenable, Ridcully has determined that the Eldar also have technology of the Dark Age that they use to strengthen polities that require it, which they would likely give to us if we ask.

Finally the Eldar may have a key to addressing one of our most pressing issues travel. Humanity in the Dark Age of Technology advanced far, it is possible the Eldar remember whether some of them, any of them found an alternative mode of travel rather than the warp. Even if not, we should still ask if there are any alternative methods long dead xenos used in ages past. Surely the Emperor's webway project shows that he was willing to use Xeno's craft to deny chaos the opportunity to corrupt human souls and any chance to deny them is one we should take.

These are some of the most pressing and dire times the galaxy has ever seen. Even now there are two ork Waaarghs who have reached their penultimate level of power, poised to crash down upon the galaxy. Even now a being who has supped on the souls of uncountable trillions bargains with a God of Chaos, selling his followers for the highest price he can empowering the creature that could destroy us all. Even now in the void between galaxies the Necrons fight a war on a scale not possible since the War in Heaven a thin barrier between the the galaxy and the oncoming Devourer.

These are dark times, the darkest times, our enemies grow stronger and so we too must strengthen ourselves by the most efficient and moral ways we can and stand strong in the night as our departed Emperor asked of us.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

I'd rather put pressure on Svartalfheim, Niflheim, and Muspelheim to contribute more to the Trust than try to extract even more from Vanaheim.

These aren't the end times. Durin has been talking about this being book one of three. We're in this for the long haul. Building up more military now at the cost of destroying our economy is a very short term gain at the cost of long term pain. We need to keep our economy intact because there's a tremendous way to go, and an intact economy provides more in the long run. We have to look at sustainable growth, not sacrifice everything for the short term tactics, because things will continue getting worse in the future, they are not at their lowest.

Shipyards aren't really the same as the massive fleet they've been putting out.

Click to shrink...

Honestly I'd rather give Vanaheim an exception.

Partially because of what you say, but also because Vanaheim doesn't really need it, orbitally they're the toughest target in the Trust, nothing that can reasonably construed as a "raid" is going to get through it and they have one of the largest fleets and air forces for a reason.

Ground defences also don't mean much to them as a majority of their pops live in orbit where the orbital defences are more important anyway.

 

[DeusFerreus]

I'm wondering if people have considered how ridiculously expensive Super Heavy defenses are. That's Avernus' current defense level.

Click to shrink...

No it's not, it's one level below. Super Heavy is level 6, currently all Avernus cities have Incredibly Heavy defenses (lvl 7) with the exception of psyker cities who have Ultra Heavy ones (lvl 8).
Super Heavy defenses are the average level in Dragon's Nest for example, though ours are better and more expensive due to DAoT tech we have.

Honestly I'd rather give Vanaheim an exception.

Partially because of what you say, but also because Vanaheim doesn't really need it, orbitally they're the toughest target in the Trust, nothing that can reasonably construed as a "raid" is going to get through it and they have one of the largest fleets and air forces for a reason.

Ground defences also don't mean much to them as a majority of their pops l8ive in orbit where the orbital defences are more important anyway.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, adding amendment that planets with extremely powerful orbital defenses can have lower level ground defenses is a good and sensible option, and it may help our relationship with Vanaheim (though tbh it's pretty good right now, I imagine it's along lines "I don't like you or your way of life but you're loyal, reliable, competant and powerful ally.")

 

[Nurgle]

I'd rather put pressure on Svartalfheim, Niflheim, and Muspelheim to contribute more to the Trust than try to extract even more from Vanaheim.

These aren't the end times. Durin has been talking about this being book one of three. We're in this for the long haul. Building up more military now at the cost of destroying our economy is a very short term gain at the cost of long term pain. We need to keep our economy intact because there's a tremendous way to go, and an intact economy provides more in the long run. We have to look at sustainable growth, not sacrifice everything for the short term tactics, because things will continue getting worse in the future, they are not at their lowest.

Shipyards aren't really the same as the massive fleet they've been putting out.

Click to shrink...

Half the fleet we make goes to the Trust. For every warp ship they make they must make another for the trust. So they are helping the trust greatly in that way. While they are the largest shipyard in the trust Midguard and Avernus are still growing their as well as the colonial shipyards. It is similiar to the way Midgard provides more troops than everyone else. It is incredibly valuable but Midgard also has its own fleet.

What I wil be proposing besides banking reform, is to raise the tithe, increase the rebate and to bring even more of the current core worlds military to be under the trust. The most expensive thing we have is that we are paying for the upkeep of our forces. Both the fleet and the hellguard cost significant amount. I believe that tithing more ships or tithing even more troops with revenues raised from taxes/tithe/levies would greatly help pay for the expansion we need with out putting too much of a financial burden on the core worlds but on the trust as a whole.

We need to grow the economy of not just the core worlds but the trust as a whole. In order to do that we need time and stability.


These is the end times while we are about to finish book one soon, us making it to the end is not guaranteed. It is why he has been so generous with everything.

Also to be a little hopefuI I am trying to get Mikael fired and hopefully replaced with bestest Uncle in law. I would gladly sacrifice a major portent of the debt we owe them in order to get someone more competent than him. He is a ok administrator but hopefully inadequate military leader.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Yeah, adding amendment that planets with extremely powerful orbital defenses can have lower level ground defenses is a good and sensible option, and it may help our relationship with Vanaheim (though tbh it's pretty good right now, I imagine it's along lines "I don't like you or your way of life but you're loyal, , reliable, competant and powerful ally.")

Click to shrink...

Yep. Seems good to me as well.

And I think that is our relationship, with a lot of mutual respect for being the best in our respective fields.

 

[HanEmpire]

[X] Enjou

 

[RogueInquisitor]

Yeah, adding amendment that planets with extremely powerful orbital defenses can have lower level ground defenses is a good and sensible option, and it may help our relationship with Vanaheim (though tbh it's pretty good right now, I imagine it's along lines "I don't like you or your way of life but you're loyal, reliable, competant and powerful ally.")

Click to shrink...

Shouldn't it be the other way around? Forces capable of defeating higher-level orbital defenses will have bigger, more powerful ground contingents. Meanwhile, sufficiently heavy ground defenses can hold off non-exterminatus orbital attack pretty much indefinitely, and are more likely to hold against ground forces long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

 

[Nurgle]

Don't higher ground defenses allow better defenses of Orbitals? Also Mikael owns some of those Shipyards. I smell corruption and kickbacks.

 

[DeusFerreus]

Shouldn't it be the other way around? Forces capable of defeating higher-level orbital defenses will have bigger, more powerful ground contingents. Meanwhile, sufficiently heavy ground defenses can hold off non-exterminatus orbital attack pretty much indefinitely, and are more likely to hold against ground forces long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

Click to shrink...

Currently the big problem is raids, not concentrated assaults. And any assault capable of punching through Vanaheim's orbital defenses without being completely crippled will have access to Vanaheim orbitals (which contains pretty much all of Vanaheims industry and majority of its population) as well as shipyards, why the fuck would they invade the planet itself?

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Don't higher ground defenses allow better defenses of Orbitals? Also Mikael owns some of those Shipyards. I smell corruption and kickbacks.

Click to shrink...

To an extent, its mostly a bonus, and given how crowded Vanaheim's orbitals are it maybe difficult to aim.

As for the second, he owned 1% a long time ago, I don't know if he's still allowed to own them now though he doesn't strike me as a corrupt individual. Just ruthless.

 

[RogueInquisitor]

Currently the big problem is raids, not concentrated assaults. And any assault capable of punching through Vanaheim's orbital defenses without being completely crippled will have access to Vanaheim orbitals (which contains pretty much all of Vanaheims industry and majority of its population) as well as shipyards, why the fuck would they invade the planet itself?

Click to shrink...

While that may be true in the specific case, (Vanaheim facing raids) it doesn't make sense more generally, which is what I was questioning. For a planet to invest in orbital defenses at the expense of ground defenses simply leaves them extra screwed if they encounter an attacker capable of overwhelming the orbitals.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

While that may be true in the specific case, (Vanaheim facing raids) it doesn't make sense more generally, which is what I was questioning. For a planet to invest in orbital defenses at the expense of ground defenses simply leaves them extra screwed if they encounter an attacker capable of overwhelming the orbitals.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, but in the case of vanaheim there's not much on the ground to attack. It's mostly all in the orbitals.

They should reinforce the ground defences as well, but it may not be practical under the current economy and strain.

 

[Nurgle]

Guys if you are worried about Vanaheim economy ask them during the break and see what can be done. They went into debt because they needed too. Now there problem is that they have nothing to trade to the planets they trade most with.

Also we still the economic reform coming up so if they need help we can give it as a whole.

 

[godofsmallthings]

How about a Deathwatch like organisation under the security council with significant autonomy ?

We could even invite the Blood Dragons to join in of they are interested.

 

[Nurgle]

Ok people who have voted for my plan what do you guys think about me adding these since apparently these is the part where we can add proposals
[] propose contacting the eldar to inform them of the dangers Ridcully has divined as well as ask for webway access to contact other Human Polities. Also ask about other forms of ftl that the eldar would be willing to trade for and if they have any human tech stashes they be willing to trade for. These will be to just find out what they want and any decisions will be decided upon the council.
- [] Propose closer ties with dragon's nest, as well as helping to upgrade their infrastructure and any technical assistance they need. Material and Finacial assistance will be discussed with the Blood Dragon's. With talks about possible integration of the Blood dragon's and their protectorate into the Trust.

Ok I am leaving the decision to except what offer from the eldar we get to the high council. We need to do these since we have acted high handed in the past.
I think we need to get closer ties to the Blood dragon's and both sides would benefit.

IF anyone has a different Idea I would like to hear why .
@Doomed Wombat if durin oks your speech I will add it.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

How about a Deathwatch like organisation under the security council with significant autonomy ?

Click to shrink...

Already done, its run jointly by the Inquisition and Security council IIRC.

[] propose contacting the eldar to inform them of the dangers Ridcully has divined as well as ask for webway access to contact other Human Polities. Also ask about other forms of ftl that the eldar would be willing to trade for and if they have any human tech stashes they be willing to trade for. These will be to just find out what they want and any decisions will be decided upon the council.

Click to shrink...

Well given that a lot of our support are people who just want to find out that makes sense.

Best case scenario it just ties up Ridcully's free divination for a few turns.

 

[Nurgle]

Already done, its run jointly by the Inquisition and Security council IIRC.


Well given that a lot of our support are people who just want to find out that makes sense.

Best case scenario it just ties up Ridcully's free divination for a few turns.

Click to shrink...

Yeah pretty much want to include it since we are part of a group.

Also Viva La France