The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Shard · Jun 29, 2018

If the attacks are repulsed in space without any possibility of reaching groundside, it's pretty hard to capture a tech-priest.

Nurgle · Jun 29, 2018

@Piren'e Colass its more to do with the fact that it is bringing out a program of paranoia and possible oprression is an extreme. It's best to be cautious with well Human's folly existence. Don't go to far being paranoid since the Abomination can use that. Actually that is kind of what chaos is the extreme emotions resonating with the warp.

Except for me I love all life and stability.

NotteBoy97 · Jun 29, 2018

I feel like if just contacting the Eldar gets us -1/2 relations than it should be explicitly stated in the option itself. Like it says 'will require high council backing' but I thought that was part of making a deal with the Eldar not just talking to them.

Portec · Jun 29, 2018

NotteBoy97 said:
I feel like if just contacting the Eldar gets us -1/2 relations than it should be explicitly stated in the option itself. Like it says 'will require high council backing' but I thought that was part of making a deal with the Eldar not just talking to them.

Only if we do it without clearing it up with the High Council first.

sabreFather · Jun 29, 2018

NotteBoy97 said:
I feel like if just contacting the Eldar gets us -1/2 relations than it should be explicitly stated in the option itself. Like it says 'will require high council backing' but I thought that was part of making a deal with the Eldar not just talking to them.

Durin often does not tell us the consequences of our actions unless we explicitly ask. Contact Eldrad is one such case.

Doomed Wombat · Jun 29, 2018

Piren'e Colass said:
I'm sure we can rig up some kind of soul shredding bomb. Perhaps a banishment rune connected to a small warp drive .

Actually, weapons we could deploy into the warp from outside it would be fantastic for blasting yet to manifest demons. How possible it'd be is questionable.

Also, I'm becoming worried about the implications of having techpriests fighting on the front line in the Mechanicus military, at least against chaos. Perhaps we should be careful not to deploy them in situations where capture is a possibility.

To the first, well that's kinda expensive...

To the second, well I fear we've no way of ensuring experts are not on the front lines.

NotteBoy97 said:
I feel like if just contacting the Eldar gets us -1/2 relations than it should be explicitly stated in the option itself. Like it says 'will require high council backing' but I thought that was part of making a deal with the Eldar not just talking to them.

Only if we go over the council's head. We get permission they'll be fine.

Reynal · Jun 29, 2018

I imagine that the reason doing it that way would cost opinion/relationship is because we're contacting him as a member of a foreign power and telling him state secrets rather than because any contact option would result in issues. For example, I'm betting that there would be no penalty if we just asked him about any upcoming apocalyptic threats or if he was willing to share any information.

Doomed Wombat · Jun 29, 2018

Reynal said:
I imagine that the reason doing it that way would cost opinion/relationship is because we're contacting him as a member of a foreign power and telling him state secrets rather than because any contact option would result in issues. For example, I'm betting that there would be no penalty if we just asked him about any upcoming apocalyptic threats or if he was willing to share any information.

Maybe?

I get the feeling it'd be fine if he came to us not the other way around.

guyfromtheplace1 · Jun 29, 2018

[X] Plan Enjou T111

I think I'll go with this,
~~though I'm confused by choosing hellflame compression over that psyrodactyl telepathy/divination sense that Jane would like, @Enjou, would you consider changing?~~
Edit? Or did we already? Hmmm
EDIT2 never mind, theystill require an examination of thespecies by psykers before we can start reverse engineering the power.

Shard · Jul 1, 2018

Sooo, what does Nurgle's plan have us do if we don't get Council approval for sharing stuff with Eldrad Ulthan?

(Besides the various rather irritating spelling errors inside it... >.>)

Nurgle · Jul 1, 2018

Shard said:
Sooo, what does Nurgle's plan have us do if we don't get Council approval for sharing stuff with Eldrad Ulthan?

(Besides the various rather irritating spelling errors inside it... >.>)

I will clean it up in a minute. Also those are copied spelling errors.

But we only go into negotiations if we get approval from the council and only what gets approved.

Doomed Wombat · Jul 1, 2018

Nurgle said:
council

I hope think we will, but what I think he's asking is an alternative action to put in in case we don't.

Like if we don't then Ridcully do X

Nurgle · Jul 1, 2018

I hope we don't but what would people want as a alternative action?

Shard · Jul 1, 2018

Nurgle said:
I hope we don't but what would people want as a alternative action?

Persons of Interest or Investigate (Avernus). Either is fine.

Portec · Jul 1, 2018

Here are the plans:

Enjou said:
[X] Plan Enjou T111

ilbgar123 said:
[X] Compromise Plan

Nurgle said:
[X] Plan Nurgle T111

I am going to compare them

SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1: Lessons Learned: Siege
-Y2: Expand Black Irons
SLOT B - Year 1
-Y1: Hellsword Regiments
SLOT C - Year 1
-Y1: Expand Helguard

I realize some people are worried about the upkeep on the expanded Helguard, but we'll be seeking subsidies there from the Trust in the High Council meeting. Also, EM and AM costs are supposed to go way down this round, due to what Durin told us, so we can get more from trade.

SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1: Lessons Learned: Siege
-Y2: Expand Black Irons
SLOT B - Year 1
-Y1: Hellsword Regiments
SLOT C - Year 1 Implement (Phoniex gunship): Planning
-Y 3: Year 1 Implement (Phoniex Bomber): Planning
-Y5: Year 1 Implement (Shadowbat Stealth Assault Shuttle); Planning

The same except for these:
Enjou expands the Hellguard (takes 18 years and is very expensive compared to everything else) while Compromise and Nurgle Implement various technologies for airforce.
It is a toss up between preparing more actions or implementing one that is very expensive (as in so expensive our AM production can not kep up with the upkeep for quite some time).

SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1: Construct: Repair, Again
SLOT B - Year 1
-Y1: Upgrade Defences (Avernus)
SLOT C - Year 3
-Y3: Expand Shipyards: Large
-- EXPEDITE YEAR 3

No differences.

SLOT A - Year 5
-Y5: Illusionary Pine Investigation
SLOT B - Year 5
-Y5: Expand Forge-Hive: Belisama

SLOT A - Year 5
-Y5: Illusionary Pine Investigation
SLOT B - Year 5
-Y5: Expand Forge-Hive: Belisama
SLOT A - Year 1

No differences.

SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1-Y2: Sound Out (Eldar Diplomacy - talk with the Eldar through Ridcully, ask what they might want in exchange for limited webway access so we can talk with and possibly trade with other major human polities in the galaxy)
-Y3: Nynye Trade (Cure for Jacob's aging)
-Y4: Make a Request (Request she teach our psykers any anti-Chaos abilities she knows that we don't. We know that channeling Warp energies like Avernite creatures do significantly reduces the risk of taint, for instance.)
-Y5: Investigate Relationship (Avernus, Muspelheim)
-Y6: Investigate Relationship (Avernus, Svartalfheim)

SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1: Sound Out (Eldar Diplomacy - talk with the Eldar through Ridcully, ask what they might want in exchange for limited webway access so we can talk with and possibly trade with other major human polities in the galaxy)
-Y2: Sound Out (Banking Reform. See what the other leaders think of a centralized banking system.)
-Y3: Nynye Trade (Cure for Jacob's aging)
-Y4: Make a Request (Request she teach our psykers any anti-Chaos abilities she knows that we don't. We know that channeling Warp energies like Avernite creatures do significantly reduces the risk of taint, for instance.)
-Y5: Investigate Relationship (Avernus, Muspelheim)
-Y6: Investigate Relationship (Avernus, Svartalfheim)

-Y1: Sound Out (Eldar Diplomacy - talk with the Eldar through Ridcully, discuss what they might want in exchange for limited web way access. Inform him of the galatic threats that are not on Avernus, ask if they have any human tech and willing to trade that we can use.
-Y2: Sound Out( Banking reform to credit union with Addendum VATS (consumption tax) or raising the tithe for subsidiaries for Forges,shipyard, merchant ships, Golaiths, titans and power armor infantry)
-Y3: Nynye Trade (Cure for Jacob's aging)
-Y4: Make a Request (Request she teach our psykers any anti-Chaos abilities she knows that we don't. We know that channeling Warp energies like Avernite creatures do significantly reduces the risk of taint, for instance.)
-Y5: Investigate Relationship (Avernus, Muspelheim)
-Y6: Investigate Relationship (Avernus, Svartalfheim)

The same except these:
Enjou sound out twice about Elder diplomacy (explaination was that with one action we will not get the opinion of all other worlds) while Compromise and Nurgle sound it out only once (with the explanation that we do not need the opinion of all and only do it to forewarn the other worlds that we want to talk about it)
Both Compromise and Nurgle sound out addtitionally the possibility of a banking reform to probaly make certain thing cheaper (among other our Helltrooper and Hellguard together with other power armor infantry).

SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1-Y4: Focused Psyker Hunting
-Y5-Y6: Counter-Intelligence
SLOT B - Year 1
-Y1-Y4: Focused Psyker Hunting
-Y5-Y6: Counter-Intelligence

No differences.

SLOT A - Year 2 (Explorator)
-Y2: Titan Designing Step Two: Machine Spirit
-- DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 2
SLOT B - Year 6 (Biologis)
-Y6: Bio-Laser Implants
-- DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 6

SLOT A - Year 2 (Explorator)
-Y2: Titan Designing Step Two: Machine Spirit If Titans design passes if not restart Titan design
-- DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 2
SLOT B - Year 6 (Biologis)
-Y6: Bio-Laser Implants
-- DOUBLE DOWN

No differences.

SLOT A - Year 2
-Y2: Those in the Shadows
-Y3: Cleanse World (Light)
-Y5: Cleanse World (Light)
SLOT B - Year 5
-Y5: On Religious Gods
-- DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 5

Changed the Cleanse World to Light, so some can start getting colonized.
Added a Those in the Shadows for Alphas.

SLOT A - Year 2
-Y2: Those in the Shadows
-Y3: Cleanse World (Light)
-Y5: Cleanse World (Light)
SLOT B - Year 5
-Y5: Path Of Transcendance
-- DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 5

SLOT A - Year 2
-Y2: Cleanse World (Light)
-Y4: Cleanse World (Light)
-Y6: Cleanse World (Light)
SLOT B - Year 5
-Y5: On Transcendent Path
-- DOUBLE DOWN YEAR 5

The same except this:
Enjou research religious gods while compromise and Nurgle research the Path to Transcendent.

SLOT A - Year 1 (Ridcully)
-Y1: Greater Divination (Turoq, Attack Plans)
-Y2: Greater Divination (Turoq, Superweapon)
-Y3: Contact Eldrad Ulthran (Give Dark Eldar and Destroyer/Ctann info - he probably knows already, but doesn't hurt to be on the safe side, and ask what they might want in exchange for helping us communicate with other major human polities far from us) IF High Council approves, ELSE Fanning The Flames
-Y4: Divination (Turoq)
-Y6: Mentoring (Alphas)
SLOT A - Year 1 (Xavier)
-Y1: Mentoring (Alphas)
-Y2: Hellflame Compression
SLOT A - Year 3 (Tamia)
-Y3: Mentoring (Alphas)
-Y4: Examine: (Siren Rune of Focus)
SLOT A - Year 2 (Aria)
-Y2: Mentoring (Alphas)
-Y3: Psychic Cleansing
-Y5: Psychic Cleansing
SLOT D - Free Divination
-Y?: Greater Divination (Large Ork Waaaghs)

Added contacting Ulthran to let him know about the DE. Probably not needed since he's also a super seer, but doesn't hurt.
Free Greater Divination is to see the state of Ork Waaaghs in the greater galaxy.
Everyone Mentors the two Alphas to maximize their chances.

SLOT A - Year 1 (Ridcully)
-Y1: Greater Divination (Turoq, Attack Plans)
-Y2: Greater Divination (Turoq, Superweapon)
-Y3: Contact Eldrad Ulthran (Give Dark Eldar and Destroyer/Ctann info - he probably knows already, but doesn't hurt to be on the safe side. Do not go deeper into talks, unless given proper clearance from the Council.)
-Y4: Divination (Turoq)
-Y6: Mentoring (Alphas)
SLOT A - Year 1 (Xavier)
-Y1: Mentoring (Alphas)
-Y2: Hellflame Compression
SLOT A - Year 3 (Tamia)
-Y3: Mentoring (Alphas)
-Y4: Examine: (Siren Rune of Focus)
SLOT A - Year 2 (Aria)
-Y2: Mentoring (Alphas)
-Y3: Psychic Cleansing
-Y5: Psychic Cleansing
SLOT D - Free Divination
-Y?: Greater Divination (Large Ork Waaaghs)
Added contacting Ulthran to let him know about the DE. Probably not needed since he's also a super seer, but doesn't hurt.
Free Greater Divination is to see the state of Ork Waaaghs in the greater galaxy.
Everyone Mentors the two Alphas to maximize their chances.

-Y1: Greater Divination (Turoq, Attack Plans)
-Y2: Greater Divination (Turoq, Superweapon)
-Y3: Contact Eldrad Ulthran (Give Dark Eldar and Destroyer/Ctann info - he probably knows already, but doesn't hurt to be on the safe side. Do not go deeper into talks, but not without proper clearance from the Council. If we get council approval, talk about what was approved in trade negotiations.)
-double down
- repeat if failed till success
-Y4: Fanning the Flames
_Y5: Divination ( Transcendence path)
-Y6: Mentoring (Alphas)
SLOT A - Year 1 (Xavier)
-Y1: Mentoring (Alphas)
-Y2: Hellflame Compression
SLOT A - Year 3 (Tamia)
-Y3: Mentoring (Alphas)
-Y4: Examine: (Siren Rune of Focus)
SLOT A - Year 2 (Aria)
-Y2: Mentoring (Alphas)
-Y3: Psychic Cleansing
-Y5: Psychic Cleansing
SLOT D - Free Divination
-Y?: Greater Divination (Large Ork Waaaghs)

The same except these:
Enjou and Nurgle have an if clause to not speak with the Eldar if forbidden by the High Council. Compromise does not.
Enjou and Compromise do a general divination of Turoq while Nurgle does a Fanning the Flames and support of Lins research.
They each use different wording as well.

SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1: Spend Time With (Syr)
-Y2: Attend High Council Meeting (LOCKED)
-Y3: Spend Time With (Xavier)
-Y4: Spend Time With (Xavier)
-Y5: Spend Time With (Jacob)
-Y6: Spend Time With (Jacob)
SLOT A - Year 4
-Y4: Personal Attention: Expand (Signe's Choice) to Small Hive
-- EXPEDITE YEAR 4
SLOT C - Year 6
-Y6: Thaddeus Expertise: Expand (Signe's Choice) to Small Hive
-- EXPEDITE YEAR 6[/QUOTE]

SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1: Spend Time With (Syr)
-Y2: Attend High Council Meeting (LOCKED)
-Y3: Spend Time With (Xavier)
-Y4: Spend Time With (Xavier)
-Y5: Spend Time With (Jacob)
-Y6: Spend Time With (Jacob)
SLOT A - Year 4
-Y4: Personal Attention: Expand (Signe'sChoice) to Small Hive
-- EXPEDITE YEAR 4
SLOT C - Year 6
-Y6: Thaddeus Expertise: Expand (Signe's Choice) to Small Hive
-- EXPEDITE YEAR 6
With Nurgle's Munitorum actions and Enjou's Divination/Sound Out actions, this seems best. Nobody else had made a plan with this set yet, so I decided to do it myself.

SLOT A - Year 1
-Y1: Spend Time With (Syr)
-Y2: Attend High Council Meeting (LOCKED)
-Y3: Spend Time With (Xavier)
-Y4: Spend Time With (Xavier)
-Y5: Spend Time With (Jacob)
-Y6: Spend Time With (Jacob)
SLOT A - Year 4
-Y4: Personal Attention: Expand (Signe's Choice) to Small Hive
-- EXPEDITE YEAR 4
SLOT C - Year 6
-Y6: Thaddeus Expertise: Expand (Signe's Choice) to Small Hive
-- EXPEDITE YEAR 6

Ok changed things around things around since apparently my second sound out would undermine Scoots position I changed it to finding out how my finance reform will work with the added Vats. Change the free divination to Large ork Wagghs, and moved things around so the Alphas can get enough tutoring. Let me know if other things people want change. I go tot go teach CPR these morning so I will be slow to respond till after lunch

No differences.

Void Stalker · Jul 1, 2018

To be fair AM wise we are almost done with the Cathedral of the Omissah which will increase AM per year by 2.7 mil after upkeep, though that does not cover all of the 4.2 mil for expand hellguard. The downside of that Cathedral is the high EM upkeep and when combined with expand helguard puts us into the negatives at the current production and trade level. Also expanding a forge hive is 15 years and then another 15 to setup a cathedral (and we can only do one in each city currently so have to chose between more EM and RM or more AM). However AM we have a much healthier balance with current production and trade levels so we will keep a positive there. It is EM that is going to need a huge trade investment to keep positive.

Also consolidating vote to not expanding Helguard:
[X] Plan Nurgle T111

Edit-
Also there is an expand mechanicus forces that will cost even more EM and AM upkeep then the Expand Helguard option so I think waiting until we have a better understanding of what our EM and AM situation moving forward will be is crucial.

Adhoc vote count started by Void Stalker on Jul 1, 2018 at 9:44 AM, finished with 422 posts and 31 votes.

13 people have voted
[X] Plan Enjou T111
- Enjou
- HanEmpire
- SirHades2.0
- Riggnarock
- Reynal
- Ruirk
- Briefvoice
- nat_401
- Andres
- Nikandros
- Fanhunter696
- guyfromtheplace1
- Shard
13 people have voted
[X] Plan Nurgle T111
- Klaus Wulfenback
- Adventwolf
- Dragon_352
- Azgrin
- NPC45
- Portec
- Nurgle
- Doomed Wombat
- random_npc
- Artemis1992
- Piren'e Colass
- cl20
- Void Stalker
4 people have voted
[X] Compromise Plan
1 people have voted
[X] Plan Shakespear T111
- MonkeyTypewriter

Enjou · Jul 1, 2018

Portec said:
It is a toss up between preparing more actions or implementing one that is very expensive (as in so expensive our AM production can not kep up with the upkeep for quite some time).

Void Stalker said:
To be fair AM wise we are almost done with the Cathedral of the Omissah which will increase AM per year by 2.7 mil after upkeep, though that does not cover all of the 4.2 mil for expand hellguard. The downside of that Cathedral is the high EM upkeep and when combined with expand helguard puts us into the negatives at the current production and trade level. Also expanding a forge hive is 15 years and then another 15 to setup a cathedral (and we can only do one in each city currently so have to chose between more EM and RM or more AM). However AM we have a much healthier balance with current production and trade levels so we will keep a positive there. It is EM that is going to need a huge trade investment to keep positive.

Also consolidating vote to not expanding Helguard:
[X] Plan Nurgle T111

Edit-
Also there is an expand mechanicus forces that will cost even more EM and AM upkeep then the Expand Helguard option so I think waiting until we have a better understanding of what our EM and AM situation moving forward will be is crucial.

Again, as mentioned before, I asked Durin if we'd get enough with the upcoming trade to cover everything and he said yes. We're already reliant upon trade as is, so its not like anything really changes there.

We're also going to be pushing for some kind of tax break or subsidies for the Helguard, which will reduce our costs.

Void Stalker · Jul 1, 2018

Enjou said:
Again, as mentioned before, I asked Durin if we'd get enough with the upcoming trade to cover everything and he said yes. We're already reliant upon trade as is, so its not like anything really changes there.

We're also going to be pushing for some kind of tax break or subsidies for the Helguard, which will reduce our costs.

I would just rather see what we can get first before spending it in case it is less than what we think for, as while it might cover the Helguard expansion, the Mechanicus force expansion would wipe out a lot of our EM income based on max trade from last time and assuming we do the Helguard expansion as well. And the forge city expansions are not cheap either and the cathedrals even less so.

Edit- looking back at max trade after Helguard and other upkeep we would have 72,781 net EM income. Mechanicus Expansion would eat up 42,000 of that. Expanding the third forge city another 1k. Going for the EM temple next will help offset some of that, though if for the third forge city if we go AM temple that will eat into the EM from the EM temple.

Adhoc vote count started by Void Stalker on Jul 1, 2018 at 11:36 AM, finished with 427 posts and 32 votes.

14 people have voted
[X] Plan Nurgle T111
- Klaus Wulfenback
- Adventwolf
- Dragon_352
- Azgrin
- NPC45
- Portec
- Nurgle
- Doomed Wombat
- random_npc
- Artemis1992
- Piren'e Colass
- cl20
- Void Stalker
- Romka
13 people have voted
[X] Plan Enjou T111
- Enjou
- HanEmpire
- SirHades2.0
- Riggnarock
- Reynal
- Ruirk
- Briefvoice
- nat_401
- Andres
- Nikandros
- Fanhunter696
- guyfromtheplace1
- Shard
4 people have voted
[X] Compromise Plan
1 people have voted
[X] Plan Shakespear T111
- MonkeyTypewriter

Romka · Jul 1, 2018

[X] Plan Nurgle T111

Portec · Jul 1, 2018

Enjou said:
Again, as mentioned before, I asked Durin if we'd get enough with the upcoming trade to cover everything and he said yes. We're already reliant upon trade as is, so its not like anything really changes there.

We're also going to be pushing for some kind of tax break or subsidies for the Helguard, which will reduce our costs.

I want to point out that your plan does not have the sound out preparing for that.

I have to point out as well that the last few trades we tried to buy enough AM and EM to create a stockpile but we consistently spend more.

Enjou · Jul 1, 2018

Void Stalker said:
I would just rather see what we can get first before spending it in case it is less than what we think for, as while it might cover the Helguard expansion, the Mechanicus force expansion would wipe out a lot of our EM income based on max trade from last time and assuming we do the Helguard expansion as well. And the forge city expansions are not cheap either and the cathedrals even less so.

Edit- looking back at max trade after Helguard and other upkeep we would have 72,781 net EM income. Mechanicus Expansion would eat up 42,000 of that. Expanding the third forge city another 1k. Going for the EM temple next will help offset some of that, though if for the third forge city if we go AM temple that will eat into the EM from the EM temple.

I really, really don't think it'll be a concern. Every time the trades have happened the amount of AM and EM available to buy has gone up. Meanwhile, we've got another force about to try to attack us, meaning war is coming again. The sooner we start the Helguard Expansion, to sooner we've got those troops to be used in the event of a war.

And honestly I'm not seeing much reason to prioritize the Mechanicus military expansion, so I don't really think that needs to factor in. Scott will be too busy building up improved Forges to spend time on that, and it's not like anything other than Titans would bring much unique to the table in terms of forces.

Portec said:
I want to point out that your plan does not have the sound out preparing for that.

No plan has a sound out preparing for that. It's not exactly a controversial proposal anyways.

I have to point out as well that the last few trades we tried to buy enough AM and EM to create a stockpile but we consistently spend more.

And? The pattern is consistent. We do the trade, have a massive amount for a while, then towards the end of 50 years get a bigger trade due to more being available.

Portec · Jul 1, 2018

Enjou said:
And? The pattern is consistent. We do the trade, have a massive amount for a while, then towards the end of 50 years get a bigger trade due to more being available.

Because we really start to accumulate dept?
We need what credit we have left over from the graveyard to buy replacement ships. There is not really anything we can sell the AM and EM producern.

Dragon_352 · Jul 1, 2018

Portec said:
Because we really start to accumulate dept?
We need what credit we have left over from the graveyard to buy replacement ships. There is not really anything we can sell the AM and EM producern.

agreed, Its just plain and simple a BAD idea to fall into debt inless you seriously *NEED* to.---- and this is not so important.

what if in a few turns we find something that is very expensive that we DEFINITELY need? then we end up in so much debt that it starts causing problems. ....problems that we end up into deepere dept .....especally with interest.
Perhaps it doesnt seem likely....but I honestly don't even see all that much benifit from having a larger army anyway....we have consitently had a overwhelming army advantage so we can afford to risk waiting on this thing (we have 100 years.....not 30) and risking losing part of it in the worst case scenario. but we could instead be focusing on making sure that the other aspects of our empire doesn't fall farther behind.....such as our debt, or our airforce.

TLDR
I'm not saying that it would be a good idea to NOT get it ever. I am saying however that its not so important that we should go into debt over it....just because we *think* we will be getting enough AM/EM does not mean we WILL....and it doenst change the fact that we can AND SHOULD wait at least a couple turns so that we can get OUT of debt. (we have 100 years from what I recall, so even tho the expansion takes 18 years we will still have plenty of time to wait a couple turns and time for the expansion to finish beyond the on-paper time)

it seems silly to let yourself go into debt over something relatively small in real life and that can wait anyway, and I strongly doubt that that doesn't transfer into this universe. especially now that we are paying interest on it.(albeit a fairly small amount)

Dynamesmouse · Jul 1, 2018

Tom Smith said:
agreed, Its just plain and simple a BAD idea to fall into debt inless you seriously *NEED* to.---- and this is not so important.

what if in a few turns we find something that is very expensive that we DEFINITELY need? then we end up in so much debt that it starts causing problems. ....problems that we end up into deepere dept .....especally with interest.
Perhaps it doesnt seem likely....but I honestly don't even see all that much benifit from having a larger army anyway....we have consitently had a overwhelming army advantage so we can afford to risk waiting on this thing (we have 100 years.....not 30) and risking losing part of it in the worst case scenario. but we could instead be focusing on making sure that the other aspects of our empire doesn't fall farther behind.....such as our debt, or our airforce.

TLDR
I'm not saying that it would be a good idea to NOT get it ever. I am saying however that its not so important that we should go into debt over it....just because we *think* we will be getting enough AM/EM does not mean we WILL....and it doenst change the fact that we can AND SHOULD wait at least a couple turns so that we can get OUT of debt. (we have 100 years from what I recall, so even tho the expansion takes 18 years we will still have plenty of time to wait a couple turns and time for the expansion to finish beyond the on-paper time)

it seems silly to let yourself go into debt over something relatively small in real life and that can wait anyway, and I strongly doubt that that doesn't transfer into this universe. especially now that we are paying interest on it.(albeit a fairly small amount)

Debt between nations works by its own rules. Simply put, you can assume a nation is not going to disappear or die, and that it will stay that way for a very, very long time. If this assumption proves wrong, then you have much bigger problems than collecting on old debt. In addition, nations pretty much think on the scale of decades. Consider that collecting on a nation's debt that it doesn't want to pay back is difficult, because then they can legitimately start asking "you and what army?". Finally, remember the old saying "If you owe the bank a thousand dollars, then you have a problem. If you owe the bank a million dollars, then the back has a problem."

Did you see that debt table that Durin posted not too long ago? Vanaheim owes like 3.5x it's gdp. Collecting on this debt is not easy or quick. We don't have the right to expect them to pay this back quickly.

Portec · Jul 1, 2018

Dynamesmouse said:
Debt between nations works by its own rules. Simply put, you can assume a nation is not going to disappear or die, and that it will stay that way for a very, very long time. If this assumption proves wrong, then you have much bigger problems than collecting on old debt. In addition, nations pretty much think on the scale of decades. Consider that collecting on a nation's debt that it doesn't want to pay back is difficult, because then they can legitimately start asking "you and what army?". Finally, remember the old saying "If you owe the bank a thousand dollars, then you have a problem. If you owe the bank a million dollars, then the back has a problem."

Did you see that debt table that Durin posted not too long ago? Vanaheim owes like 3.5x it's gdp. Collecting on this debt is not easy or quick. We don't have the right to expect them to pay this back quickly.

In this case it is far easier to delay the Hellguard for one turn (5 years, so very short term for a nation as you pointed out) to get a more solid planing.

In this case it is a choice between forcing to go into a certain level of dept because of the expansion and trying to get the best deal without pressure.

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