The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%
  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%

  • Total voters
    738
Now there is something I never thought I would ever head. Someone who is not GW honestly praising Fail-badon the Harmless.:V

I mean sure he succeeded in Embers but it was more the emperor finally cracking under the strain then anything he did.
Despite his dismal track record, he still managed to a) not get turned into a spawn, and b) keep assembling such massive forces for his Black Crusades. Frankly, the fact he could keep getting those together is more impressive than any potential victory he might have achieved with them.
 
Difference of degree not of kind. The point is mutation is not the main driver of tech progress
I never said it was, only that its absence may have some knock-on effects on the Eldar. Tau evolve just as much as any other species, they're just slightly more resistance to Warp-sourced mutations due to having underdeveloped souls. There's more than one way to mutate, you know.

And much like the random cobbled together Ork tech that runs off the Waagh field the base ship did not have to be nearly as impressive as the final empowered result.
o_O You either have an atemporal targeting system, or you don't. And even if it was "cobbled-together", what do you think prototypes are, exactly? You need to make a shit version of something before you can make a good version. The Orks are just unique because they were engineered with an instinctive understanding of tech, so everything they build is prototypes.
 
Now there is something I never thought I would ever hear. Someone who is not GW honestly praising Fail-badon the Harmless.:V

I mean sure he succeeded in Embers but it was more the emperor finally cracking under the strain then anything he did.
How he's failure or harmless? All thirteen crusades were successes while destroying many worlds and killing or corrupting countless trillions in the process. Yes, he has not able to single-handedly win against largest polity in the galaxy over course of a single campaign, and because he's an idiot he didn't try to do so in the first place. All crusades were meant to either weaken the Imperium or strengthen the Black Legion.
 
How he's failure or harmless? All thirteen crusades were successes while destroying many worlds and killing or corrupting countless trillions in the process. Yes, he has not able to single-handedly win against largest polity in the galaxy over course of a single campaign, and because he's an idiot he didn't try to do so in the first place. All crusades were meant to either weaken the Imperium or strengthen the Black Legion.

He had basically endless armies, the size of the polity he was fighting was irrelevant, also his obsession with Cadia was comical. He could have just flown right through the system once he got space superiority, yet he insisted on trying to take the most highly fortified planet in the Imperium bar Tera just show he could. I repeat Fail-badon the Harmless.

I never said it was, only that its absence may have some knock-on effects on the Eldar. Tau evolve just as much as any other species, they're just slightly more resistance to Warp-sourced mutations due to having underdeveloped souls. There's more than one way to mutate, you know.

There is not one single example of a Tau falling to Chaos. That is far, far more than slight resistance.

o_O You either have an atemporal targeting system, or you don't. And even if it was "cobbled-together", what do you think prototypes are, exactly? You need to make a shit version of something before you can make a good version. The Orks are just unique because they were engineered with an instinctive understanding of tech, so everything they build is prototypes.

You underestimate the sheer nonsense that is Ork-Tech. The stuff is not merely prototype it is vaguely the right shape and runs on the Waagh. Ork Titans could not even shoot, much less move without that aid. In fact they might just colapse under their own weight. Now does that mean that I think the Speranza is in fact not space-worthy without warp nonsense? Of course not. But I strongly suspect the most impressive of its "tech" is nothing of the sort and instead warp influence.
 
Last edited:
Yhere is not one single example of a Tau falling to Chaos. That is far, far more than slight resistance.
First I've heard about it, and it's more than likely propaganda. Even if it isn't, the minimal soul, the minimal contact with Chaos (they're quite new on the galactic stage), their relatively small population, the Ethereal control mechanism, and their culture can likely account for it. Regardless, this has nothing to do with tech advancement rates any longer.

You underestimate the sheer nonsense that is Ork-Tech. The stuff is not merely prototype it is vaguely the right shape and runs on the Waagh. Ork Titans could not even shoot, much less move without that aid. In fact they might just colapse under their own weight. Now does that mean that I think the Speranza is in fact not space-worthy without warp nonsense? Of course not. But I strongly suspect the most impressive of its "tech" is nothing of the sort and instead warp influence.
So? Humans still built it. If it is Warptech, that's even more impressive, given how much understanding that requires and how easy it is for Warp experiments to go horribly wrong.
 
Something to remember about DAoT Humans versus Eldar and Necrons is that the Eldar and Necrons had this huge, 60 million year head start, that they completely wasted. The Necrons spent all those years asleep and letting concerned Eldar exterminate their worlds piece meal whenever they found them.

The Eldar spent 60 million years sitting on their asses on a small bundle of worlds that probably made DAoT humanity's eyes boggle when they found out. Because judging by all the ground humans covered in some 20000 years and all the tech they created, if you gave DAoT humanity that much time they'd have become Gods, peers to the Old Ones and C'tan if not above them.

The Eldar were a designed race with a whole bunch of the technology of the Old Ones, and they spent millions of years in which they were the sole, uncontested power in the galaxy, doing nothing. They didn't even bother to exterminate the Necrons and the Orks when they could have. They just puttered around in their small bundle of worlds, not even as big as Segmentum Solar, and their mostly tiny Webway enclaves (Commorragh is one of a kind after all).

So I can totally believe DAoT humanity would have eclipsed them completely by 30k if the Age of Strife hadn't happened when it did. Technically it already had. Humanity ruled the Galaxy, not the Eldar, even if they hadn't caught up to Old One derived Eldar psytech quite yet.
 
Last edited:
So? Humans still built it. If it is Warptech, that's even more impressive, given how much understanding that requires and how easy it is for Warp experiments to go horribly wrong.

There is no reason to assume the warp influence was intended. Gods/spirits generally form organically. Powerful ship ---> belief in its prowess ---> Even more impressive ship.

So I can totally believe DAoT humanity would have eclipsed them completely by 30k if the Age of Strife hadn't happened when it did. Technically it already had. Humanity ruled the Galaxy, not the Eldar, even if they hadn't caught up to Old One derived Eldar psytech quite yet.

It ruled the galaxy, until the Eldar broke most of them back to the stone age by accident. Not that impressive.
 
Last edited:
There is no reason to assume the warp influence was intended. Gods/spirits generally form organically. Powerful ship ---> brief in its prowess ---> Even more impressive ship.
In this case we kinda do have a reason. Humanity is bad at that whole forming spirits thing, being mostly non psykers and not an Old One made race.

The Mechanicus make real Machine Spirits (when they don't just get an AI they don't know it's an AI and call it that), yes, but only without realizing and most of the time they are useless or provide small boosts to performance around the board and Chaos resistance.

A Warp Tech targeting system can't be made accidentally by humans, or any non Ork race, it's too complex and specific. The Eldar could do it on purpose and so could DAoT humanity, apparently.
 
Last edited:
Sure there is. The fact that the Speranza is one of a kind points in that direction as well as the fact that such warp empowerment is a common phenomenon in 40K. It's not definitive proof, but certainly inclines the balance in that direction IMO.
Are you dense? It. Was. A. Prototype! It was one of a kind because it was the first one ever built! You have zero evidence that any part of the Speranza wasn't deliberate, zero evidence that the only reason it was so powerful was because of an Akashic entity residing in it, and zero evidence that the atemporal targeting system and black hole generators (which I only just recalled after failing to find some easily-accessed quotes from Priests of Mars) were anything but bleeding-edge DAoT tech. You are grasping at straws here.

Look, I'm tired of this conversation. You clearly have some investment in Eldar >> Humans forever and there's nothing they can do about it, and I really just don't want to keep trying to convince you. So, congratulations. You win, by attrition.
 
Are you dense? It. Was. A. Prototype! It was one of a kind because it was the first one ever built! You have zero evidence that any part of the Speranza wasn't deliberate, zero evidence that the only reason it was so powerful was because of an Akashic entity residing in it, and zero evidence that the atemporal targeting system and black hole generators (which I only just recalled after failing to find some easily-accessed quotes from Priests of Mars) were anything but bleeding-edge DAoT tech. You are grasping at straws here.

Look, I'm tired of this conversation. You clearly have some investment in Eldar >> Humans forever and there's nothing they can do about it, and I really just don't want to keep trying to convince you. So, congratulations. You win, by attrition.

Sigh... Look I did not mean to upset anyone. My point was that the Eldar and the Necrons could consistently do more impressive things like craft gods or snuff out stars. This is not me taking the side of the Eldar. I'm just sick and tired of humanity being special snowflakes in sci-fi and so I'm naturally inclined to argue against it in 40K, something for which I think there is a lot of lore backing.
 
Sigh... Look I did not mean to upset anyone. My point was that the Eldar and the Necrons could consistently do more impressive things like craft gods or snuff out stars. This is not me taking the side of the Eldar. I'm just sick and tired of humanity being special snowflakes in sci-fi and so I'm naturally inclined to argue against it in 40K, something for which I think there is a lot of lore backing.
An awful lot of the high end Necron bullshit has been softly reconned over the past two editions, and the Eldar really did stagnate that bad after the War in Heaven. Yes, the Eldar may have been capable of incredible things with their technology, but they never actually USED IT. Creating Maiden Worlds was apparently trivial for them, but they rarely did anything more significant. Once the Necrons went to sleep and the Old Ones died out, they seem to have lost any actual ambition, and spent the next 60 million years murderfucking Slaanesh into existence.

Another thing to remember is that Humanity's development wasn't completely unaugmented. The Mars scientists were tapping into the drams of the Void Dragon, who what the Tech Master of the C'tan.
 
Sigh... Look I did not mean to upset anyone. My point was that the Eldar and the Necrons could consistently do more impressive things like craft gods or snuff out stars. This is not me taking the side of the Eldar. I'm just sick and tired of humanity being special snowflakes in sci-fi and so I'm naturally inclined to argue against it in 40K, something for which I think there is a lot of lore backing.

Here's my interpretation of things:

Human in the DAoT just before the MoI Rebellion actually had a chance of eclipsing the Imperial Eldar within a few thousand years. Or at least, have some of their technology eclipse the Eldar. Why aren't there other races that are just as advanced as the Eldar and Necrons in the galaxy given that the Eldar mostly sat around and didn't advance their technology much, if at all, in the 60 million years since the War in Heaven?

With the Eldar, it was because the moment that another race actually got to the point that they could threaten the Eldar, then the Eldar Empire fell on top of them. Sure, the other race may have a hand-gun that can shoot through anything, a fighter jet that can't be seen by anything and a cruiser that can take out dreadnoughts... But the Eldar have all that... and everything else as well. Which leaves the 'Possible Super Race' either exterminated or smashed down to a much smaller empire size, with the uh... 'understanding' that they advance their technology to this point, and no further, or "We'll be back to... 're-educate' you lot? Okay"

As for the Necrons and Orks... Yes, they still existed, but this was mostly because the Eldar Empire took a relaxed 'out of sight/foresight, out of mind' stance to them. Or in other words, if a farseer/explorer got curious one day and went looking around the galaxy and found a Necron Tomb World, well, then they went and destroyed it. But they didn't actually dedicate the effort needed on a societal effort to wipe them all out. Especially as the Necrons specifically built their tomb worlds in places to neutralise as many advantages the Eldar had to finding them as possible.

With the Orks, it was more a case of 'small' Ork infestations, whilst still an existential threat to basically everyone else in the galaxy, weren't to the Eldar... So they either wiped out the leaders when the threat grew to the point it might hurt the Eldar Empire, thus causing the Orks to fall into a civil war... Or they directed an Ork Threat that would harm the Eldar to go off in that direction, bump into that expanding Empire and be mostly shattered themselves. Who cares if it means that race get's exterminated, or almost so, it's not like it harmed any Eldar, now is it?

Humans got lucky. By the time they had started to endanger the Eldar Empire with their technological progress, and size of their civilisation, the Eldar Empire had mostly gotten distracted 'murder-fucking' Slaanesh into existence. That doesn't mean that a tiny fraction of the Eldar living around then didn't mess with the DAoT humans, hell, one of the reasons for the MoI Rebellion could have been something caused by an Eldar not wanting Humanity to endanger the Eldar's supremacy over the galaxy.


To borrow from my favourite explanation for what caused the MoI Rebellions (Non-canon, but it's definitely something I could see being the explanation) "The thing that caused the Rebellion was when a couple of Eldar decided Humanity had to go... Or at least, not threaten the Eldar Empire in the future, what with how they'd soon have access to the Webway and technology that stood a half-decent chance of holding up against that of the Eldar. So they did the one thing that Human AI designers had never thought possible when developing the Men of Iron, despite having 20 thousand years of fiction about Robot/AI rebellions. They summoned fucking Daemons into the AI cores. Humanity naturally panicked the fuck out, so when a Martian technology corporation based at the Noctis Labyrinth (you know, near that captive C'Tan) released a patch that disabled the MoI's emotions/emotion emulators, and thus sealed that previously-unknown security flaw, they didn't spend the time to think about what new problems might occur thanks to that patch.

Unfortunately for humanity and the MoI, it did in fact add a new problem. Because the MoI now knew just what a threat Chaos was. So they investigated and discovered the perfect way to defeat that threat permanently! Even better! They could 'save' the human race along the way! Step One: Exterminate the Human Race, preserving genetic and cultural data so that they could revive the human race after they'd defeated Chaos. Step 2. Commit galactic omnicide. Step 3. Wait for Chaos to disappear and the Warp to return to it's Not-completely-fucked-up state. Step 4. Revive Humanity and celebrate saving humanity!

Naturally, humanity... disagreed with the MoI's new plan. Rather violently in fact. The MoI knew this would happen, so did a first strike. Hello Men of Iron Rebellion... Unfortunately for the MoI, they lost. Unfortunately for Humanity, this war meant that now they had no chance of defeating the Eldar Empire and thus stopping the birth of Slaanesh, whose creation was now noticeably causing problems in the warp, such as making warp travel near the Eldar Empire.. 'problematic'... 'Warp Storms for Days' problematic.

Unfortunately for the Eldar who started this whole mess, this also meant that the MoI would no longer attack the Eldar Empire and wake them out of their 'let's murder-fuck a Chaos God into existence!' mood, whilst still ultimately being defeatable by the Eldar.


Or simplified: Post-War in Heaven, the Necrons were in a coma, the Orks were having a party but got thrown in jail whenever they made enough of a mess that it disturbed the upper-class residents of the city, and the Eldar were the upper-class of the city, but were all hippies. At least, until they decided to combine Hippy with Goth, and eventually read the wrong page of a tome of eldritch lore, tore a massive hole in reality in their city, consuming the upper-class neighborhoods of the cities and feeding all their souls to the eldritch monster they summoned.

Humanity had the fortune of being a middle-class family trying to break into the upper-class in the city at this time, when all the Eldar were distracted being hippy-goths to each other, and thus didn't notice their efforts and lock them out like they did to all the others before them. Unfortunately, one of the sons in the family went insane about this point and tried to murder the whole family. He was killed in self-defence, but not before murdering most of the family. The remaining members of the family started to think about what to do now, and how to heal, but then the god-damn Eldar tore a fucking huge hole in reality and the entire city went to hell.
 
Last edited:
And on humanity's side, there's the Terminus Decree which can either save humanity or doom it. Not verifiably human, but still worth noting. There does, however, exist galaxy-scale technologies that were definitely made by humans. The first is the Astronomican, which is a psychic lighthouse of such power that it can shine throughout almost the entire Milky Way galaxy. The other galaxy-level technology was the Akashic Reader, which wasn't even built by Dark Age humans, but humans of the Adeptus Mechanicus! It was a device that could access the sum total of all knowledge in the universe. By all accounts it worked, it just didn't have a powerful enough empath to operate the machine for more than a brief moment.
Bad Andres. The Terminus Decree is not representative of humanities ability to explode things since it is most likely the off button for the Golden Throne.

The Emperor exploding is not a good example of human tech's explosive potential :p

You're making a lot of assumptions about the nature of Eldar technological progress, the biggest of which is that they advance in a human-like fashion. This is obviously untrue, as if a human polity had been in power for 60M years, they would A) be so ridiculously advanced that even the dregs of their technologies -- like the stuff the canon (Dark) Eldar use -- would be so obscenely potent that the Imperium wouldn't stand the slightest chance in a fight. We're talking Xeelee-style "handguns that can blow up stars", here. They can't have been advancing at a human-like rate -- or even at a much slower rate, given the timeline involved; even for a slow species, 60Myr is time enough to advanced absurdly far. Odds are good they simply stopped making new discoveries after the War In Heaven, with later "progress" being mostly using old tech in new ways.

This is somewhat borne out by their history and biology. IIRC, they were created by the Old Ones as a commando/special ops race for the War, which means that they didn't have the history of constant conflict and tech evolution that humans and other species do. They were simply handed their tech base on a platter, and given how advanced it would have had to have been to matter in the war, its quite possible that they never had reason to try to push it farther. There's not much point in making new discoveries if you can have anything you want on a platter without, not if you don't already have a history of such exploration and research. Their biology likely contributes to this issue as well; IIRC they were designed to not mutate or evolve in anyway (modern Eldar are indistinguishable physiologically from War Eldar), likely in order to help against the mutative effects of the Warp, and this likely filters into their racial psychology, disincentivizing change and evolution (of tech) .

I'm not saying that humans were actually close to catching up to the Eldar tech level, but we know they had some crazy stuff (like the atemporal targeting system on the Speranza) that the Eldar might not; this points to the humans starting to get there. A similar argument goes for the Necrons as well with the C'tan standing in for the Old Ones in many respects, although in their case the long slumber and de-sophonce of the majority of their population would have put a stopper in their progress.
Ehhh.

Ok from my knowledge the Eldar are similar to what you suggest, most of their tech was in fact hand me downs by the Ones (knock offs at that) and when the Old Ones went kaput they did spend a lot of time trying to unsuccessfully reverse engineer their stuff (like the Webway, which is a knock off of the Old Ones which was pretty much capable of taking someone anywhere and everywhere in all dimensions). Remember one of the things Tranth noted was that a lot of the weapons the Old One defences used (well the ones we could understand anyway) were like the Eldar ones...only super charged with POWA. One of the other ones we understood was that it somehow turned off atomic forces. No idea how.

Anyway that's pretty much why the Eldar stagnated as far as I am aware, they're simply running up against wall(s) which the Old Ones had potentially billions of years to climb over. So why not murder fuck :D

However the Eldar are not indistinguishable from the War Eldar, although the development has been very recent. DE are supposed to be the physical peers of the Craftworlders while their psycic power has basically become vestigial, the Craftworlders have better control over their powers.

Speranza is also a really bad example of human DAoT BS as it is the host of an Akeshik spirit thing which is responsible for it being how it is.

A better example are things like the Iron Heart and the Death of Integrity.

Something to remember about DAoT Humans versus Eldar and Necrons is that the Eldar and Necrons had this huge, 60 million year head start, that they completely wasted. The Necrons spent all those years asleep and letting concerned Eldar exterminate their worlds piece meal whenever they found them.

The Eldar spent 60 million years sitting on their asses on a small bundle of worlds that probably made DAoT humanity's eyes boggle when they found out. Because judging by all the ground humans covered in some 20000 years and all the tech they created, if you gave DAoT humanity that much time they'd have become Gods, peers to the Old Ones and C'tan if not above them.

The Eldar were a designed race with a whole bunch of the technology of the Old Ones, and they spent millions of years in which they were the sole, uncontested power in the galaxy, doing nothing. They didn't even bother to exterminate the Necrons and the Orks when they could have. They just puttered around in their small bundle of worlds, not even as big as Segmentum Solar, and their mostly tiny Webway enclaves (Commorragh is one of a kind after all).

So I can totally believe DAoT humanity would have eclipsed them completely by 30k if the Age of Strife hadn't happened when it did. Technically it already had. Humanity ruled the Galaxy, not the Eldar, even if they hadn't caught up to Old One derived Eldar psytech quite yet.
The Crons were already the Old Ones equals if not superiors in material tech so I wouldn't say they spent the last few thousand years doing nothing.

As for the Eldar well I wouldn't say they spent it doing nothing, just running up into a wall that could take billions of years to get over unless your BS savants like the Crons/Tau or have divine help...like the Crons and humanity.

Are you dense? It. Was. A. Prototype! It was one of a kind because it was the first one ever built! You have zero evidence that any part of the Speranza wasn't deliberate, zero evidence that the only reason it was so powerful was because of an Akashic entity residing in it, and zero evidence that the atemporal targeting system and black hole generators (which I only just recalled after failing to find some easily-accessed quotes from Priests of Mars) were anything but bleeding-edge DAoT tech. You are grasping at straws here.

Look, I'm tired of this conversation. You clearly have some investment in Eldar >> Humans forever and there's nothing they can do about it, and I really just don't want to keep trying to convince you. So, congratulations. You win, by attrition.
ehhh, no it wasn't a prototype as far as we are aware?

I mean seriously you're stating it with great certainty, that it was but even taking out the whole spirit of knowledge squatting in it, it was replicated at least to an extent in the Death of Integrity.

@Pyro Hawk your thing is way too long for me to reply to it as one chunk, but I'll try not to sphagetti post

As for the Necrons and Orks... Yes, they still existed, but this was mostly because the Eldar Empire took a relaxed 'out of sight/foresight, out of mind' stance to them. Or in other words, if a farseer/explorer got curious one day and went looking around the galaxy and found a Necron Tomb World, well, then they went and destroyed it. But they didn't actually dedicate the effort needed on a societal effort to wipe them all out. Especially as the Necrons specifically built their tomb worlds in places to neutralise as many advantages the Eldar had to finding them as possible.
It may have also had something to do with

1. The Eldar thinking they're mostly all dead (which they were) and thus not worth the effort
2. The Crons being much better at hiding their shit than you are giving them credit for, their tomb worlds are not located in easy to find place
3. Potential MAD situation of the Crons deciding FUCK THIS and using one of their super weapons like the Orrey to just KO the galaxy.

As for not eradicating the orks...well I'd like to see how that would end up. You lot seem to be forgetting the Eldar are not the Old Ones equal and unless they are I don't think anyone could ever remove the Orks permanently, especially since the Eldar Empire was apparently head capping Beasts who were real threats even to them until the time their empire finally exploded.

As for the other high tech civilisations...well if you play rogue trader you tend to run into the remnants of them and sometimes they were smashed by the Eldar as you say...other times they KO'd themselves thanks to their own MoI situation.

hell, one of the reasons for the MoI Rebellion could have been something caused by an Eldar not wanting Humanity to endanger the Eldar's supremacy over the galaxy.
Actually nobody knows the reasons for the MoI rebellion.

Another equally convincing argument I heard was that it was chaos trying to stop Tzeench because he was getting too strong due to all the hope in the galaxy. Another argument I heard was that it was the MoI trying to "save" humanity by resetting the warp.

To borrow from my favourite explanation for what caused the MoI Rebellions (Non-canon, but it's definitely something I could see being the explanation) "The thing that caused the Rebellion was when a couple of Eldar decided Humanity had to go... Or at least, not threaten the Eldar Empire in the future, what with how they'd soon have access to the Webway and technology that stood a half-decent chance of holding up against that of the Eldar. So they did the one thing that Human AI designers had never thought possible when developing the Men of Iron, despite having 20 thousand years of fiction about Robot/AI rebellions. They summoned fucking Daemons into the AI cores. Humanity naturally panicked the fuck out, so when a Martian technology corporation based at the Noctis Labyrinth (you know, near that captive C'Tan) released a patch that disabled the MoI's emotions/emotion emulators, and thus sealed that previously-unknown security flaw, they didn't spend the time to think about what new problems might occur thanks to that patch.

Unfortunately for humanity and the MoI, it did in fact add a new problem. Because the MoI now knew just what a threat Chaos was. So they investigated and discovered the perfect way to defeat that threat permanently! Even better! They could 'save' the human race along the way! Step One: Exterminate the Human Race, preserving genetic and cultural data so that they could revive the human race after they'd defeated Chaos. Step 2. Commit galactic omnicide. Step 3. Wait for Chaos to disappear and the Warp to return to it's Not-completely-fucked-up state. Step 4. Revive Humanity and celebrate saving humanity!

Naturally, humanity... disagreed with the MoI's new plan. Rather violently in fact. The MoI knew this would happen, so did a first strike. Hello Men of Iron Rebellion... Unfortunately for the MoI, they lost. Unfortunately for Humanity, this war meant that now they had no chance of defeating the Eldar Empire and thus stopping the birth of Slaanesh, whose creation was now noticeably causing problems in the warp, such as making warp travel near the Eldar Empire.. 'problematic'... 'Warp Storms for Days' problematic.

Unfortunately for the Eldar who started this whole mess, this also meant that the MoI would no longer attack the Eldar Empire and wake them out of their 'let's murder-fuck a Chaos God into existence!' mood, whilst still ultimately being defeatable by the Eldar.
Ah I know that story on Space Battles.

Yeeeeeah.
 
Yeah, I love that story... And the reason I like that explanation for why there was the Men of Iron Rebellion is because it combines most of the major possibilities people have for why they rebelled. Namely, God-damn Eldar!, Fucking Chaos! and C'Tan Dickery.
 
He had basically endless armies
No he didn't, if anything it's the other way around. Imperium is the very definition of "we have reserves", while the core of Abbadon's forces on the other hand are elite veteran CSMs who are ultimately limited in number. Even though he would have won some battles and inflicted massive damage, protracted campaign against Imperium would just simply resulted in his forces being ground down to nothing beneath sheer numbers Imperium could muster.
also his obsession with Cadia was comical. He could have just flown right through the system once he got space superiority, yet he insisted on trying to take the most highly fortified planet in the Imperium bar Tera just show he could.
Ehh, while he may be bit too obsessed with Cadia the idea of trying to secure vital chokepoint is sound. Having the only real way to retreat blocked if anything goes wrong would be catastrophic.
 
Last edited:
Ehh, while he may be bit too obsessed with Cadia the idea that failing to secure vital chokepoint is sound. Having the only real way to retreat blocked if anything goes wrong would be catastrophic.
Him threatening Cadia also is a big deal for the Imperium.

Even if you ignore the "Crimson Path" having the world that keeps the Eye of Terror from expanding in the hands of chaos doesn't seem like a great idea.
 
Him threatening Cadia also is a big deal for the Imperium.

Even if you ignore the "Crimson Path" having the world that keeps the Eye of Terror from expanding in the hands of chaos doesn't seem like a great idea.

That only matters if there is an Imperium to care. He could have on multiple ocasions just flown straight to Tera and used his solar-system-destroying Blackstone Fortress to kill everything. Ultimately Abadon in canon falls prey to the nature of the narrative system he is a part of.

He is supposed to menace but never win... hence Fail-badon the 'Armless. GW tried to fix this by giving him other objectives, but it just did not work. He has the air of a demented old gaffer who runs around screaming for a bit gets kicked around, then grabs a random shinny thing the story assures us is important and runs back to his room cackling about winning.
 
Last edited:
GW trying to keep the setting in stasis for so long really messed up Abbadon's role as the big bad lurking just over the horizon for the Imperium, with the explanation that each black crusade was fulfilling part of his long game falling flat since his long game also seemingly included waiting 10,000 years for the Imperium to fall apart anyway. It made sense for the Gothic war since that was literally fighting over the Blackstone Fortresses but the whole "Errmm, actually every black crusade was like that." just looks like an excuse.
 
The reason for the Cybernetic Revolt could be rather simple: they started doing Cybertheurgy, they rolled a 6 on the mishap table, and the resulting badness spread from there.

There is not one single example of a Tau falling to Chaos. That is far, far more than slight resistance.
There is, actually. The protagonist of Fire Warrior/Dawn of War: Dark Crusade fell to Chaos. In Fire Warrior, I think he even said "blood for the blood god". He got better, but he did fall.

Ork Titans could not even shoot, much less move without that aid.
New canon is that ork tech works by itself, it just works better in the hands of orks.

Speranza is also a really bad example of human DAoT BS as it is the host of an Akeshik spirit thing which is responsible for it being how it is.
Couldn't you reach an opposite conclusion? That it was because it was DAoT BS that it was the host of the Akashic spirit? If humans build a great temple and a god decides to live in it, it doesn't draw away from the fact that the temple is itself great and was made great by humans before a god was involved.

A better example are things like the Iron Heart and the Death of Integrity.
I haven't heard about the Iron Heart and can find little information about it. Can you tell me about it?
 
He only got those during Gothic War aka. 12th Black Crusade. I also don't recall them being able casually destroy star systems though that may be just my fault.

Hence the thirteenth at the very least should have been the one where he blasted Sol, but no. Hell even when he took Cadia and expanded the Eye he still faffed about randomly to the point where Eldrad did more damage to the Imperium as a whole trying to birth Ynead.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top