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The Heir of the Dragon: A Rhaenyra Targaryen Quest

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Simon_Jester said:
Since canon Rhaenyra managed to have heirs despite marrying canon Laenor, we can probably figure something out.
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Of course, with the problem being that her first batch (ehem) of heirs was very visibly not Laenor's.

...which, granted, is a bit odd, since they would still have been 3/8 Valyrian, which is more than the main book series of Targs (the Mad King, Rhaegar and Dany would stand at less than a quarter), but eh, I suppose genetics can work that way.

So to avoid that pitfall I guess we would need to import a Lysene boytoy or something, and yeah as people have noted getting yet a third person involved would make matters really complicated...

...but at least in this case we are actually arguing what would be optimal, not deliberately going for a suboptimal outcome.
 
Lord of Sturgia said:
Even in the show where it's clear Aemond lost control of Vhagar and didn't really mean to kill Luke, he still gets called Kinslayer at every turn, but when it comes to Daemon where it's heavily implied he told Blood and Cheese that if they couldn't find Aemond that they should kill Jaehaerys, no one ever brands him as a Kinslayer even tho he is.
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I mean Rhaenyra does basically brand him a kinslayer and chews him out throughly for blood and cheese.
 
Susano said:
Of course, with the problem being that her first batch (ehem) of heirs was very visibly not Laenor's.
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Since I'm considerably less familiar with the source material than I might like, help me out here:

Did this cause the Velaryons to stop supporting Rhaenyra?

If the answer is "no," then my natural inclination to "I'm not sure Rhaenyra's kids will look like Laenor" is that while it's worth considering the, ah, problem at least a little, I'm willing to live with it.
 
Marrying Laenor sounds to me more and more like a politically fraught (because of the heir looks issue), emotionally stressful (do I even need to count all the problems there) dump of a situation that Rhaenyra would really really wish she had not ended in if she ever ends up in it. Sure, for someone else, getting the support of a powerful House would be worth it. But for Rhaenyra, it would cost her far too much of what she actually values, all so she can hold on to the throne.

It's so fucking depressing. I'm thoroughly anti-Laenor for this Rhaenyra.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Since I'm considerably less familiar with the source material than I might like, help me out here:

Did this cause the Velaryons to stop supporting Rhaenyra?

If the answer is "no," then my natural inclination to "I'm not sure Rhaenyra's kids will look like Laenor" is that while it's worth considering the, ah, problem at least a little, I'm willing to live with it.
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You know, come to think of it, it's a bit odd that it doesn't. You'd think that, if the only reason Corlys and Rhaenys (the one who got snubbed for the throne before by Rhaenyra's line) are supporting Rhaenyra is that their grand-children will end up on the throne, them not actually being their grand-children would be a great deal. But no, apparently, there is even the (books) case of the Silent Five - nephews of Corlys who contested Rhaenyra's and "Laenor's" kids being named heirs to Driftmark. Viserys had their tongues removed when they brought up the issue of the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's children.

So even when it was about the succession of their very own domain, they still supported Rhaenyra, somehow...?
(in canon the issue was solved by the three "strong boys" dying and Driftmark falling to Corlys' bastard son, of course)

However, the "strong boys" were probably the number one propaganda point brought up against Rhaenyra in canon. Probably more so than even her being a woman. I am not sure if any lord was actually swayed on just that issue alone, but it absolutely was a PR millstone around her neck.
 
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Somic said:
Sure, for someone else, getting the support of a powerful House would be worth it. But for Rhaenyra, it would cost her far too much of what she actually values, all so she can hold on to the throne.
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I'll remind people that "Getting on the throne" IS an aim of ours, as much a core trait of this Rhaenyra as "Romantic". And that "Romantic" trait even includes the provision that Rhaenyra understands she has to keep the romantic and the political apart and probably won't be able to marry for love.

I.e., no, she could conceivably value the support of the house with currently the most dragons in the realm that high.

And speaking of stress, having a double-beard marriage may in fact end up less stressful than some other alternatives.
 
Susano said:
I'll remind people that "Getting on the throne" IS an aim of ours, as much a core trait of this Rhaenyra as "Romantic". And that "Romantic" trait even includes the provision that Rhaenyra understands she has to keep the romantic and the political apart and probably won't be able to marry for love.

I.e., no, she could conceivably value the support of the house with currently the most dragons in the realm that high.

And speaking of stress, having a double-beard marriage may in fact end up less stressful than some other alternatives.
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Ah, good point. I went to reread that and you're right, she wants to be Queen and she doesn't need to marry the same person she loves, only to have a person she loves. I guess if Laenor won't mind Alicent, I won't mind Laenor.
 
Somic said:
Marrying Laenor sounds to me more and more like a politically fraught (because of the heir looks issue), emotionally stressful (do I even need to count all the problems there) dump of a situation that Rhaenyra would really really wish she had not ended in if she ever ends up in it. Sure, for someone else, getting the support of a powerful House would be worth it. But for Rhaenyra, it would cost her far too much of what she actually values, all so she can hold on to the throne.
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"All so she can hold on to the throne..." Look, I just don't want her to literally die okay? Because if she loses, our Rhaenyra is definitely going to go down fighting and I don't want her fighting against unwinnable odds when, hell, she'll probably be younger than I am right now in real life.

Susano said:
However, the "strong boys" were probably the number one propaganda point brought up against Rhaenyra in canon. Probably more so than even her being a woman. I am not sure if any lord was actually swayed on just that issue alone, but it absolutely was a PR millstone around her neck.
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It's a valid concern.

Somic said:
Ah, good point. I went to reread that and you're right, she wants to be Queen and she doesn't need to marry the same person she loves, only to have a person she loves. I guess if Laenor won't mind Alicent, I won't mind Laenor.
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I am absolutely sure Laenor won't mind Alicent if we don't make a habit of minding Laenor's own boy-on-the-side. That is, in fact, one of his selling points. Because while Gwayne Hightower might be willing to go through life accepting that his wife is getting up to carnal shenanigans with his sister, maybe... Laenor assuredly will be willing to go through life accepting that his wife is doing literally the same thing he is just on the other side of the gender divide.

The big disadvantage that goes with it is that Laenor and Rhaenyra themselves prrrobably aren't going to be sleeping together much. Barring, as noted, some kind of medieval artificial insemination scheme (not out of the question I suppose), Rhaenyra's kids probably won't be his. And given that Laenor has very distinctive Valyrian features and so does Rhaenyra, we definitely are at risk of producing an heir who is obviously not Laenor's. It is, as I say, a valid concern.
 
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Susano said:
You know, come to think of it, it's a bit odd that it doesn't. You'd think that, if the only reason Corlys and Rhaenys (the one who got snubbed for the throne before by Rhaenyra's line) are supporting Rhaenyra is that their grand-children will end up on the throne, them not actually being their grand-children would be a great deal.
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I would like to note that in the show and even the books IIRC, Rhaenys and Corlys become a bit frosty towards Rhaenyra after being led to believe for years that Rhaenyra had ordered Laenor to be assassinated (Yea I don't know why either), and even when she was married to Daemon who had not only caused Laena to run away from Driftmark with him, but also inadverdently led to her death as well, but that was it, they were only frosty towards Rhaenyra, but they were still tenatively her allies.

So, to sum things up, in Rhaenys and Corlys' eyes, the Targaryens of Baelon's line had led to the deaths of both their children, they also knew that Rhaenyra's children weren't Laenors so their blood wouldn't be on the throne if Rhaenyra became Queen, and that's not even getting into their feelings on the matter of Rhaenys being passed over in favor of Viserys.

Now, I won't deny, I am pro Gwayne and pro Qoren Martell, but I also wouldn't mind a Laenor marriage, but I think it is important to note that Canon Rhaenyra did a lot of seemingly worse things to house Velaryon than our Rhaenyra has in preventing Viserys's marriage to Laena, and yet for rather flimsy reasons, Corlys and Rhaenys still supported Rhaenyra.

A marriage to Laenor would make things concrete, but it's most likely not the only way we could gain their support or even neutrality in the succession, so mayhaps take this into account when pondering a potential husband for Rhaenyra?
 
I'm a little nervous about counting on what seems to me like very mysteriously persistent Velaryon loyalty to Rhaenyra. It feels like something where Teen Spirit might at any moment decide "nah, in the show and books Rhaenyra just kept inexplicably rolling nat 100's on "do the Velaryons fuck you over" for a decade, Imma just have them do what makes logical sense."
 
Simon_Jester said:
I'm a little nervous about counting on what seems to me like very mysteriously persistent Velaryon loyalty to Rhaenyra. It feels like something where Teen Spirit might at any moment decide "nah, in the show and books Rhaenyra just kept inexplicably rolling nat 100's on "do the Velaryons fuck you over" for a decade, Imma just have them do what makes logical sense."
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Fair enough, again I don't mind a Laenor option, but outside of them joining the Dance as their own faction, the factions so far are us (Cool warrior princess), Daemon (I won't elaborate, we all know he sucks), and Johanna's kids who are complete unknowns so far, but Johanna isn't really family in the same way we are and she's homophobic and Laenor's gay and Laena seems to be bi.
 
I am a Dorne fanboy, hence earlier in the quest I flirted with supporting a Martell marriage for Viserys, but Rhaenyra marrying Qoren Martell would probably be ill-adviced. I also stand by that the Dornish probably could help in bringing down dragons with conventional means, but that probably doesn't offset losing the most populated and prosperous of the Seven Kingdoms for our cause.

Of course, on the plus-side, the Dornish do seem to be the kind of guys who would accept a wife having a female paramour, and canon shows an example of how to do it without joining the succession lines (i.e., t he heir/eldest is bumped off the Dornish succession line and a second son/daughter takes over instead), which is more of a problem with the Velaryons.
 
Ehh, show Rhaenys only decided against leaving Rhaenyra in a very bad bind after Rhaenyra swore up and down that she didn't kill Laenor and married her two eldest to Rhaenas daughters. And only actually sided with her once Rhaenyra showed she was the adult in the room during the early dance
 
Susano said:
I am a Dorne fanboy, hence earlier in the quest I flirted with supporting a Martell marriage for Viserys, but Rhaenyra marrying Qoren Martell would probably be ill-adviced. I also stand by that the Dornish probably could help in bringing down dragons with conventional means, but that probably doesn't offset losing the most populated and prosperous of the Seven Kingdoms for our cause.

Of course, on the plus-side, the Dornish do seem to be the kind of guys who would accept a wife having a female paramour, and canon shows an example of how to do it without joining the succession lines (i.e., t he heir/eldest is bumped off the Dornish succession line and a second son/daughter takes over instead), which is more of a problem with the Velaryons.
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Oh I agree completely, I like the idea of a Qoren marriage cause it sounds nice, not cause it would be the best thing politically (It would not), I think Gwayne is a good choice and has actually a lot going for him politically, but again, I don't have a hardline stance.

On that topic, uhhh, what should we do with Dorne? Raylon's pushing for a conquest, but aside from the morality of that, Viserys wouldn't agree unless Otto helped us hound him, and even then holding Dorne would be a nightmare.

Diplomacy might work but there's a lot of bad blood there that might not be able to be smoothed over, but Viserys would likely support that move.
 
Lord of Sturgia said:
On that topic, uhhh, what should we do with Dorne? Raylon's pushing for a conquest, but aside from the morality of that, Viserys wouldn't agree unless Otto helped us hound him, and even then holding Dorne would be a nightmare.
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I don't think we need to do anything with Dorne until we are in fact he monarch. Until then, this is in fact Viserys' concern. And selling this as a matter of, well, basically, filial piety to Raylon probably would work. Once we have secured our reign, then we may start thinking about how doing a smarter, more guerilla resistant conquest of Dorne, but that is literally decades in the future.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Since I'm considerably less familiar with the source material than I might like, help me out here:

Did this cause the Velaryons to stop supporting Rhaenyra?

If the answer is "no," then my natural inclination to "I'm not sure Rhaenyra's kids will look like Laenor" is that while it's worth considering the, ah, problem at least a little, I'm willing to live with it.
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In the show, Corlys and Rhaenys believing Rhaenyra had ordered Laenor's murder didn't stop them from supporting Rhaenyra.

This might have had to do with the fact that Rhaenyra and Daemon had their grandkids.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I am absolutely sure Laenor won't mind Alicent if we don't make a habit of minding Laenor's own boy-on-the-side.
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Eh, some people can be prideful hypocrites to a fault, especially men in a pseudo-medieval setting. I won't be sure about anything until we actually see his reaction to this possibility.
 
Lord of Sturgia said:
On that topic, uhhh, what should we do with Dorne? Raylon's pushing for a conquest, but aside from the morality of that, Viserys wouldn't agree unless Otto helped us hound him, and even then holding Dorne would be a nightmare.
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Raylon's a man we respect but he's just one of the Kingsguard; he's allowed to advocate courses of action we're not honor-bound to pursue, and we certainly shouldn't start a war in which we'd probably personally kill hundreds if not thousands (dragonrider, remember) just over the opinions of one man.

Raylon is also, importantly, an old man, as I understand it. By the time Rhaenyra is queen he will likely be dead or retired- they do superannuate knights out of the Kingsguard eventually, and I believe that Barristan the Bold's long tenure in the role was partly a reflection of his extraordinary prestige and nearly superhuman talent as a warrior.

Frankly, the smartest thing we can do with Dorne is probably to leave it alone, given that our own political situation would get extra-wobbly if we tried for a royal marriage to unite the realms.

hailcapital said:
In the show, Corlys and Rhaenys believing Rhaenyra had ordered Laenor's murder didn't stop them from supporting Rhaenyra.

This might have had to do with the fact that Rhaenyra and Daemon had their grandkids.
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Well, in Rhaenyra's case, "their" grandkids, which is rather the crux of the problem. Hard to coerce hardcase nobility by threatening kids who aren't theirs.

Hopefully if we pursue a Laenor marriage, we can at least avoid specific circumstances under which Laenor gets assassinated. The keys would be:

1) Not being willfully antagonistic with him and building off a shared and mutual interest in maintaining the lavender marriage,
2) Not letting him and also not motivating him to go fuck off to Driftmark where we can't keep an eye on his safety,
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3) Not being too personally insulted if he starts deciding he's into Rhaenyra after all because she's "actually manlier than that squire over there" or something. :p
 
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I for one am in favour of Qoren at this point since he's the most likely to accept us having Alicent as paramour and it does net us Dorne, which is helpful for geostrategic reasons.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Well, in Rhaenyra's case, "their" grandkids, which is rather the crux of the problem. Hard to coerce hardcase nobility by threatening kids who aren't theirs.

Hopefully if we pursue a Laenor marriage, we can at least avoid specific circumstances under which Laenor gets assassinated. The keys would be:

1) Not being willfully antagonistic with him and building off a shared and mutual interest in maintaining the lavender marriage,
2) Not letting him and also not motivating him to go fuck off to Driftmark where we can't keep an eye on his safety,
also
3) Not being too personally insulted if he starts deciding he's into Rhaenyra after all because she's "actually manlier than that squire over there" or something. :p
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One of Laenas kids was there as well and Corlys considered the strong boys his grandkids cause to him their last name was more important than blood relations
 
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