Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
"I mean, if he was going to accuse her of laying with a woman, it should have been me!"
"What?"
"... What?"
The Heir of the Dragon: A Rhaenyra Targaryen Quest
- Thread starter Teen Spirit
- Start date
"What?"
"... What?"
- Location
- United States
This is kind of what I mean by "unfairly maligned." People act like the Faith opposition to incest is some kind of backwards traditionalist thinking and no, the Faith was straight up right about incest. Incest is not equivalent to being gay.
There is nothing confirmed in canon, AFAICT, that the Faith has scripture against homosexuality. In this quest it well might - it's not like it's confirmed in canon it doesn't either. But how firm this is a whether there are other interpretations is something we can lean on. On this and coming between us and the throne - People assume that because it's similar with Catholicism that the Fot7 is hidebound and conservative compared to all the other cultures and Faiths in ASOIAF - but as far as I can tell they were if anything better about things than everyone except the Mormonts and the Rhoynar/Dornish - and the Dornish are also Faithful. The idea that a daughter comes before an uncle is an Andal tradition.
There is the point that they are institutionally weak and quite possibly corrupt. However, we're not talking about trying to politic with the institution here. It's about the image (and reality) of the paladin, the pious true knight, which has a power with people independent of the formal institution. And also, royals have gone from "what's the Faith going to do?" To "I have fled to dragonstone/been imprisoned" like three different times. There is a power in the Faith, even if it's not well captured by the institutions.
I agree we'll never win over the Arnolds. But we're not trying to - we'd be showing people like canon Catelyn, Davos, or Quest!Alicent that supporting us is not contradictory to their faith.
The idea that Margaery is an unbelieving cynic just using the Faith for political ends is something we get from the notoriously unreliable Cersei who is categorically unable to conceive of people as not being self-serving cynics.
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- Location
- Puerto Rico
[X] Speak with other knights as Ser Tarly suggests. There are some friendly faces here that you would trust.
- Location
- Spain
Well, if you take a look at the World of Ice and Fire it confirms the fact that the Faith is very clearly against homosexuality and that the "Stay at the Kitchen" is their de-facto attitude towards women... And the reason because Renly, Oberyn, and others whose homosexuality was an open secret was because thanks to Maegor (who despite being a terrible person did some extremely necessary things that ensured the stability of the kingdom for centuries) defanged the FotS so thoroughly that they can't do much about it without risking to get hanged drawn and quartered... I mean just take a look at what happens when Cersei reinstated their militant branches...
And about "People assume that because it's similar with Catholicism that the Fot7 is hidebound and conservative compared to all the other cultures and Faiths in ASOIAF", that is stupid... This is a medieval setting basically all the religions of ASOIF (except maybe the Summer Islands) are supposed to be backward, hidebound, and conservative... The problem with the FotS is that compared with the other religions of the setting it is one of the few that objectively doesn't give you access to cool magical stuff.
As I said before I find it extremely stupid to become a truly faithful and believer member of a church in which we are an abomination for our sexuality, our attitude and personality, and because we will access to the greatest seat of power in the 7 kingdoms... I am all for taking advantage of the image of the paladin, the pious true knight but don't start to believe that the FotS and us are going to be anything else than business partners
I told you before, throw money at them and build a new Cathedral or something, it worked in our world for thousands of years and it will work on Westeros...
- Location
- Canada
From a cursory search, the Faith disapproves of any same sex relationships, which is a significant reason for the negative attitudes directed at them that forces people like Loras and Renly to keep their relationships a secret
The cite for this being The World of Ice and Fire: The Untold History of Westeros and the Game of Thrones
The Faith's enforcement of gender roles also puts them in opposition to Rhaenyra's goals
The Facets of the Seven in One are held as immutable roles that people are to adhere to, with those being strictly divided between men and women
As Meribald puts it:
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- Location
- United States
Yes, they're a medieval religion. My point was in comparison to their contemporaries, not in comparison to the modern day. Everything is relative.
Cultural prejudice gets mixed in with religious prejudice all the time. But this is why I was careful with saying scripture. If the opposition to homosexuality is in the same vague notions that Arnold had about his rights, then that's something we can work with. If there's actual issue taken with it in the Seven Pointed Star, then that could be a dealbreaker, or it could be reinterpretable. Whatever gender role preference there is (and yes there clearly is some) it is not sufficient that there is any codified legality to favoring uncles over daughters, and in fact the opposite.
The "cool magic stuff" is locked behind either burning people (R'hllor) or eating people (Old Gods) in ASOIAF. The good thing about the Fot7 is that compared to the other religions of the setting it is the one that doesn't practice human sacrifice. And even if we were cool with that, we did not pick scholar.
Edit: Calling Cersei getting her comeuppance as a warning against the Faith getting too powerful seems kinda ridiculous to me? Like yeah, they're right? She obviously did practice incest and commit regicide. She had it coming. That was not some kind of witch hunt.
Cultural prejudice gets mixed in with religious prejudice all the time. But this is why I was careful with saying scripture. If the opposition to homosexuality is in the same vague notions that Arnold had about his rights, then that's something we can work with. If there's actual issue taken with it in the Seven Pointed Star, then that could be a dealbreaker, or it could be reinterpretable. Whatever gender role preference there is (and yes there clearly is some) it is not sufficient that there is any codified legality to favoring uncles over daughters, and in fact the opposite.
The "cool magic stuff" is locked behind either burning people (R'hllor) or eating people (Old Gods) in ASOIAF. The good thing about the Fot7 is that compared to the other religions of the setting it is the one that doesn't practice human sacrifice. And even if we were cool with that, we did not pick scholar.
Edit: Calling Cersei getting her comeuppance as a warning against the Faith getting too powerful seems kinda ridiculous to me? Like yeah, they're right? She obviously did practice incest and commit regicide. She had it coming. That was not some kind of witch hunt.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
I will say it won't be a factor, mainly because Rhaenyra so easily killing Arnold left most of the room rather stunned themselves.
Our Lord descends to grant us wisdom!
Teen Spirit is Azor Ahai.
Teen Spirit is Azor Ahai.
I can't wait for Viserys reaction to the news: " That fool said WHAT to My Daughter??!!! Oh she killed him, good for her"
- Location
- Spain
Yeah, and this dude is probably the most down-to-earth, kind, and reasonable septon of the setting
Counterpoint, Thoros didn't have to sacrifice anyone to resurrect lord Baeric, and Greenseers and Wargs don't require blood sacrifices either...
And yeah we didn't pick Scholar so Rhaenyra wouldn't ever become a magic user herself, but you don't need to be a mage to know that magic exists and that is a powerful tool... We can always hire someone to do the witching
It is a warning to never ever rescind the best idea that Maegor ever had... And honestly, this is more on the stupidity and shortsightedness of Cersei, but if you are a monarch you never want an established army in your city/center of power that isn't subject to the authority of the crown (the Night's Watch isn't under the authority of the crown either, but they are too far away to matter)... Besides that religious zealots can never be truly trusted, especially those with goals that crash regularly with the nobility/royalty and with a never-ending source of recruits...
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
That's shifting goalposts. You explicitly said that homophobia is not part of the Faith. You were shown that it is not just cultural attitudes, but that the Church is actively speaking out against same sex relations. And while you may have a point that misogyny was widespread in history across several cultural spheres, homophobia is more specific - that is not just "being medieval", that is indeed specifically the Faith. Given that, what we are will always be an abomination to the Faith, and we hence have an additional interest in keeping it small and marginalized. Defanged, as Maegor achieved - that is a good state of affairs to have.
This goes even if it were "just customs" - you cannot separate social religion from social customs. Majority religions will always be about what is culturally ingrained in a society, even in preference to scripture (not that all religions have those). Thus, the main defenders of old tradition and social customs will always be the Church, or whatever else religion there is. And yes, that would go for the Old Gods as well, but they don't even have any organized religion or even just disorganized clergy to begin with, so they are not really a factor.
While both the Old Gods and of course R'hollor have human sacrifices, the notion that magic is "locked behind" those is clearly not true. Stuff like greensight and warging is clearly associated with the whole complex of the First Men/North/Old Gods, and requires no human sacrifices. We have several instances of woods witches and the like, and while their magic repertoire could include human sacrifice, it clearly is not obligate for every bit of magic or foreseeing they are doing.
That's such a weird way to look upon things in the context of what to do with the Faith. "Comeuppance"? I mean, obviously we have a vested interest in that nobody should be able to judge us, "comeuppance" or not. As I have said, we want the Church small, docile and defanged, so they will not be able to judge the Queen of Westeros at all Because, uh, we're gonna be that Queen, so logically that is in our interests. Luckily, the Church is already destroyed as a centre of power, thanks to Maegor, and let's keep it that way.
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- He/Him
I will say this event will have a lot of interesting implications going forward because not only was Arnold beaten, but Rhaenyra beat him effortlessly, in a trial by combat. Also you did this within a month of the fight with Harwin, so people are going to be treating that fight a lot more seriously than they might have. Basically this is the moment a lot of the realm is going to be taking you even somewhat seriously as a fighter, for better or worse.
- Location
- Your pantry
- Pronouns
- He/Him
First and foremost, this isn't as much a publicity stunt as it is a way for Rhaenrya to cope with killing a man. Faith is a powerful thing, regardless of your thoughts on the matter, and it would help in this circumstance. It is not "stupid" to believe in a religion where it's institutions are discriminatory towards your gender, or sexual orientation, etc. because that's not what faith is about. It's how you engage in the god(s) and moral code you believe in, and the meditation and peace of mind that comes with it. My point is someone can be faithful to a religion without abiding by it's institutions.
Stepping away from the philosophical, Dorne is firmly in the grip of the Faith of the Seven yet practices a much looser view of gender roles and sexual orientation. With that in mind we can easily determine that it's a matter of background and culture, rather than religious doctrine that sets the rest of Westeros apart.
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- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
All the options would help, and the Faith option has been pushed specifically because of the political implications of presenting ourselves as pious and so on. And that is the wrong political card to play. And hailcapital in specific has also pushed for a stronger lean towards religion in general.
That's a very modern, even postmodern attitude. This is not really how you would look at things in the middle ages, and while religion has a bit less firm grip on Westeros than RL Europe, even Westeros cultural attitudes would not separate the Faith from the Church. Plus, again,if you want to talk about just psychology and "peace of mind", then all the options most likely help, without getting involved in a belief system that is discriminatory against one's gender or sexuality.
Dorne is just lax on their faith is all. They don't take their religion as serious as some other realms might.
In the case of the Faith of the Seven specifically, you can't really differentiate between Andal customs and the Faith anyway. The Andals came to Westeros with a seven-pointed stars carved on their head. To them, the conquest was a holy war - crusades against heathens, basically. That was their attitude, including concepts like "heathens", which at that time was of course every non-Andal. The entire conquest was in large parts carried by religious zeal. The Faith of the Seven is basically, if you want to put it that way, "Andalism" - Andal culture distilled into a religion, with Andalos as the Holy Land and rules and conceptions based on Andal thought. Specifically Andal thought, because that is how the Faith of the Seven came to be.
I would like to note that Dorne actually has other active religions in their territory including a temple for the Lord of light, unlike any other region of Westeros that majorly practice the faith of Seven.
- Location
- Reno Nv
[X] Speak with other knights as Ser Tarly suggests. There are some friendly faces here that you would trust.
- Location
- Your pantry
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I understand, but don't think it's the "wrong" card to play. I do think all of the choices are equally valid, it's just what direction we wanna go with Rhaenyra really. I'll not argue the point here though, since that's not where I'm concerned when it comes to my argumentation.
I would disagree on that, though I understand where you're coming from. Faith and Insitution are different things, and all I need to do is point my finger at religious schisms such as a the Reformation. People back then could clearly disagree with the Catholic Church, but they still believed in the same God, didn't they?
I would disagree with you on the notion of Dorne not taking their religion "seriously". I think they hold onto is as strongly as the other Andal kingdoms. The key difference between Dorne and the other kingdoms isn't that they're somehow less religious, but that the introduction of the Rhoynish to Dorne necessarily resulted in a more tolerant society, since the Rhoynish had a much more equal stance on gender roles and sexuality.
I will agree to your point that the initial Andal invasion was as you said, with andal customs included, but that also disregards the literal thousands of years of evolution and theology that came after said period. We obviously have notable events such as the Targaryens shifting religious doctrine, but I don't think we can discount the Faith of the Seven having other earlier evolutions over the course of history that R.R Martins didn't bother mentioning.
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[X] Speak with other knights as Ser Tarly suggests. There are some friendly faces here that you would trust.
"Friendly faces that you would trust" makes me think these are people who probably wouldn't go "woman breaks down just because she killed someone, clearly Rhaenyra is unfit for the throne".
"Friendly faces that you would trust" makes me think these are people who probably wouldn't go "woman breaks down just because she killed someone, clearly Rhaenyra is unfit for the throne".
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[X] Spend some time with Alicent and try to rest. Her presence has already helped you so much.
[X] Speak with other knights as Ser Tarly suggests. There are some friendly faces here that you would trust.
[X] Speak with other knights as Ser Tarly suggests. There are some friendly faces here that you would trust.
CharlieKing
Pure of Heart, Dumb of Ass
- Pronouns
- They/Them
that's actually one of the more interesting parts of Dorne's history to me.
they started with a culture based around a mother river goddess with the Rhoyne, and they had water wizards (i can't remember if it's fanon or canon that the wizards took out a dragon); then the Andal conquest brought the Seven (so you have the dynamic of a native religion vs forced conversion), and THEN LoL somehow found a receptive enough audience to find a temple built there worthwile (a paternal fire god in a country with roots from a maternal river goddess?). irl examples of this are Mexican and Irish Catholicism, or the Voodoo and Hoodoo Catholicism in New Orleans, and even Appalachian folk magic (also known as Granny Magic, or kitchen magic) from mostly Protestant Irish, Scottish, and english colonists and Native American knowledge of local flora and fauna+practices.