- Location
- washington
I'm fairly sure the cultivator can argue to improve anything they have and even adopting their enemies skillsets and adapting past them.
The God Diversion
- Thread starter Birdsie
- Start date
- Original
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Dunno about the Lightning Bolts for Cultivator. Here's some examples Birdsie provided on what certain sacrifices would give us from Discord.
Edit: Didn't see your remark until I made the post firefrog600
- Location
- washington
Mind you thats not even just what they can naturally cultivate without cutting off. Things like absurd skill likely work like somehow grabbing lightning, moving faster than light, thinking faster too, punching someone in a time stop, seeing then breaking fate, etc etc. Fuck humans have electricity in their bodies cultivate that then throw lightning!
Also general enlightenment based bullshit.
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Though I have changed my vote to hermit I would like to point out that if we were the demon king we would be able to farm despair by making league of legends or flappy birds. If we were truly evil we could make a gacha game.
- Location
- washington
its already 2020+ and uh the video game class exists so they probably have a monopoly cause I bet that class has a game developer class. Fuck virtual reality games might exist now.
- Location
- washington
so no one willing to take my last vote marker for voting for the hermit cultivator?
Rihaku
The Internet
@Birdsie Can you clarify the King of Magi's weakness to fate? How absolute is it, when exactly it takes effect, etc? My initial interpretation is that, much like a stereotypical archmage, the King of Magi can roughly perceive the threads of fate / is aware of the salient prophecies affecting his chosen course and cannot directly refute said prophecies, but can rules lawyer, exploit wordings, engineer ironic fates, and generally steer them towards his favored outcome possibility space. Is this correct?
I am not sold on Hermit: Cultivator for two reasons:
*Slow start. Birdsie has confirmed that Solomon will not begin with drastic changes, so we won't be removing his crippling despair until graduation most likely. It's a high-potential, low-initial power option to a degree which means we may need to contend with immediately powerful classmates like The World without powers of our own - powers that will likely take Will to develop, of which we would have just spent a large fraction on buying the Cultivator.
*Too internally focused. Solomon is a character with epic competence but low effective motivation. The most interesting story arcs for this kind of "reluctant hero" should involve engagement with other characters and the world, not self-reflection and meditation. The Cultivator somewhat decouples our power gain from interesting activities. Solomon should either gain power with minimal effort, so that we can focus on actually using that power in class; or he should be required to undertake cool quests for power, so that we have a naturally interesting story.
*It is possible to contort the Cultivator role to create interesting arcs, but the inherent description of the role isn't hugely suited for it, unless you really like introspective character studies of Solomon in particular. That's not what I'm most interested in - I'd rather see him play off his class and the Educator to gain power, or begin in a position of power with an interesting task ahead of him.
The King of Magi effectively fulfills the latter, since Solomon will easily gain magical powers and can then use them in interesting ways on the class and the fantasy world. And since his affinity is summoning, he doesn't even have to do most of the actual work himself. This is also another vector to bring interesting characters into play: a powerful but unruly spirit which Solomon must match wits against to properly contain, or a pliable one with more limited domains?
[X] The Magician: King of Magi
[X] Upgrade the The Magician: King of Magi to Write-in: Upgraded King of Magi if we can afford it.
Upgraded King of Magi (250 Will, 25 SC)
*As per the baseline, but his weakness to Fate is strongly mitigated; he is much more easily able to twist, invert, or rules lawyer the threads of fate into relatively preferable configurations, so long as they are somewhat narratively satisfying. Perhaps he may not be able to insert himself as protagonist, but either antagonist or deuteragonist would be doable. (Birdsie has noted this will be about a 33% mitigation of the baseline KoM's weakness)
*A substantially greater affinity and command over the elements and casting styles associated with the Four Suits of the Minor Arcana. Solomon can either choose to specialize in one for a moderate power/versatility bonus + unique major buff, or represent all four to apply said moderate bonus (~20%) to all Suit-associated magics. Also allows him to more easily accrue associated spells passively, or as a result of things he was already going to do (for example - by saving the nerd from bullying, he might learn a powerful protective ward in addition). There is some overlap between Suit domains. The Suits and their associated casting styles are, respectively:
*Swords - Air and Reason. Aerokinesis, electrokinesis, eventual 'pure' telekinesis and command over the electromagnetic spectrum, enhanced cognition, the summoning of Djinni, and offensive magics, including those which act as proactive defense. Casting style: Traditional Hermetic Magic, verbal and somatic components.
--Specialist Bonus: Thrice-Great Hermes - Before the unraveling of the Logos, no magic may stand. The stark light of reason reveals all manner of trickery and illusion for the shambles they truly are. If you specialize in this Suit, its associated magics will receive an overwhelming bonus to dispel, unravel, pierce, unmake, or otherwise undo the supernatural effects of others. Very useful against almost any magus or Enrolled.
*Wands - Fire and Creativity. Pyrokinesis, the summoning of Ifrit, thematic flame magics (cauterization, creation of passion, damage over time effects), and all fundamentally 'creative' magics - from inciting a wellspring of inspiration to creating a barrier against incoming harm, to the creation of life itself. Casting style: Wand Magic, which requires a focus implement but otherwise no verbiage and only very brief, quick movements.
--Specialist Bonus: Fire-Keeper - The raw power of flame yields a simple yet critical benefit. If you specialize in this suit, its associated magics will receive an additional major bonus to effectiveness and versatility. Fire burns brightly, but not eternally: this bonus slightly erodes the more times it is used in quick succession, but restores itself over time. Better one decisive conflagration than a trillion trifling embers.
*Cups - Water and Emotion. Hydrokinesis, including eventual control over ice and all other liquids; the creation of supernatural potions, poultices, salves and tinctures, the summoning of Marids, and all fundamentally transformative magics - from altering someone's emotional state to increasing their strength to transforming them into a newt. Dual casting styles: Raw Manifestation, which channels pure emotion to create powerful but somewhat ill-controlled effects, and Potioncraft (self-explanatory). While the former is less useful in the day-to-day, it is often the most potent in times of dire need, and the specialist of Cups can rely on the latter for more consistent utility.
--Specialist Bonus: Holy Grail - The power of the Cups suit to regulate emotions grants its adept a degree of perspective and balance. The world may shift like the changing of the tides, yet the sea itself remains undiminished. If you specialize in this suit, moderately discount all Will costs; substantially discount Will costs related to magics associated with this suit.
*Pentacles - Earth and the Material. Terrakinesis, including ferrokinesis; the creation of artifacts and vestments, the manufacture of Golems and other material servitors, and all magics related to matter and the material world, including the summoning of actual individuals from, theoretically, any physical realm. Casting style: Ritual Magic (including Artifice). Relatively slow and requiring preparation, but mightier in potential effect than even Manifestation, and just as precise as Hermetic Magics. With time and foresight, the artificer is the mightiest magus of all.
--Specialist Bonus: Terra Firma - Matter is the gross reflection of the spirit supernal; why should he whose spirit is so kingly, be consigned to common form? The specialist's strength, precise control, durability and stamina are all enhanced to superhuman levels. The degree of this enhancement scales with the magnitude of his past accomplishments in artifice & ritual magic. Even should his tower fall, and great works be unraveled, his magnificent physique shall stand as shining testament to his achievements on this earth.
To clarify, you are not locked into your casting style, but the spells granted by this bonus will typically be of that style, and spells not cast in that style typically will not benefit from your Specialist Bonus.
---
Below is the older, deprecated King of Magi:
Upgraded King of Magi (250 Will, 25 SC)
*As per the baseline, but his weakness to Fate is strongly mitigated; he is much more easily able to twist, invert, or rules lawyer the threads of fate into relatively preferable configurations, so long as they are somewhat narratively satisfying. Perhaps he may not be able to insert himself as protagonist, but either antagonist or deuteragonist would be doable.
*Greater potency, versatility, and potential of magic overall compared to the baseline. More easily accrues completed spells passively, or as a result of things he was already going to do (for example - by saving the nerd from bullying, he might learn a powerful protective ward in addition).
*Much greater ability to enchant, augment, or otherwise aid others; and to benefit from the dispensation of such aid, as if the Hermit: the Enlightener role had been appended to this one, if through a magical lens.
---
Most of my arguments for why this role fits Solomon are already present in the original King of Magi post, please consider them re-iterated now. Here are some further arguments:
*Great power should not be handed to those who will use it to excessively exploit others. Solomon just wants a long and comfy life, so he is someone that can be trusted to hold this role better than most.
*That someone with Solomon's name should take this role strongly fits the principle of "as above, so below" that is key to the interpretation of the card.
*Solomon's nature also strongly fits the card in the sense that he possess exceptional mundane genius; per "as above, so below," it's only natural that such genius would thence be reflected in his Enrolled manifestation.
*As to the card itself: The Magician's robe is white, symbolizing purity; Solomon is pure both in the sense that he is presumably a virgin (?) and also because he lacks most of the worldly desires that constrain humanity. His cloak is red, symbolizing rubedo, the completed form of alchemy, wisdom made manifest: as symbolic analogue to his own predictive ability, there is little more fitting. The infinity symbol above his brow is yet another analogue of the same.
*Solomon should try to determine if the Educator cares strongly about realizing or maximizing his charges' potential; if so, he should argue that the King of Magi role most definitively does that for Solomon himself: a means of supernal influence as represented by the wand aloft turns Solomon from a passive contemplator of the world to an active channel between his ideals ("above") and reality ("below").
I am not sold on Hermit: Cultivator for two reasons:
*Slow start. Birdsie has confirmed that Solomon will not begin with drastic changes, so we won't be removing his crippling despair until graduation most likely. It's a high-potential, low-initial power option to a degree which means we may need to contend with immediately powerful classmates like The World without powers of our own - powers that will likely take Will to develop, of which we would have just spent a large fraction on buying the Cultivator.
*Too internally focused. Solomon is a character with epic competence but low effective motivation. The most interesting story arcs for this kind of "reluctant hero" should involve engagement with other characters and the world, not self-reflection and meditation. The Cultivator somewhat decouples our power gain from interesting activities. Solomon should either gain power with minimal effort, so that we can focus on actually using that power in class; or he should be required to undertake cool quests for power, so that we have a naturally interesting story.
*It is possible to contort the Cultivator role to create interesting arcs, but the inherent description of the role isn't hugely suited for it, unless you really like introspective character studies of Solomon in particular. That's not what I'm most interested in - I'd rather see him play off his class and the Educator to gain power, or begin in a position of power with an interesting task ahead of him.
The King of Magi effectively fulfills the latter, since Solomon will easily gain magical powers and can then use them in interesting ways on the class and the fantasy world. And since his affinity is summoning, he doesn't even have to do most of the actual work himself. This is also another vector to bring interesting characters into play: a powerful but unruly spirit which Solomon must match wits against to properly contain, or a pliable one with more limited domains?
[X] The Magician: King of Magi
[X] Upgrade the The Magician: King of Magi to Write-in: Upgraded King of Magi if we can afford it.
Upgraded King of Magi (250 Will, 25 SC)
*As per the baseline, but his weakness to Fate is strongly mitigated; he is much more easily able to twist, invert, or rules lawyer the threads of fate into relatively preferable configurations, so long as they are somewhat narratively satisfying. Perhaps he may not be able to insert himself as protagonist, but either antagonist or deuteragonist would be doable. (Birdsie has noted this will be about a 33% mitigation of the baseline KoM's weakness)
*A substantially greater affinity and command over the elements and casting styles associated with the Four Suits of the Minor Arcana. Solomon can either choose to specialize in one for a moderate power/versatility bonus + unique major buff, or represent all four to apply said moderate bonus (~20%) to all Suit-associated magics. Also allows him to more easily accrue associated spells passively, or as a result of things he was already going to do (for example - by saving the nerd from bullying, he might learn a powerful protective ward in addition). There is some overlap between Suit domains. The Suits and their associated casting styles are, respectively:
*Swords - Air and Reason. Aerokinesis, electrokinesis, eventual 'pure' telekinesis and command over the electromagnetic spectrum, enhanced cognition, the summoning of Djinni, and offensive magics, including those which act as proactive defense. Casting style: Traditional Hermetic Magic, verbal and somatic components.
--Specialist Bonus: Thrice-Great Hermes - Before the unraveling of the Logos, no magic may stand. The stark light of reason reveals all manner of trickery and illusion for the shambles they truly are. If you specialize in this Suit, its associated magics will receive an overwhelming bonus to dispel, unravel, pierce, unmake, or otherwise undo the supernatural effects of others. Very useful against almost any magus or Enrolled.
*Wands - Fire and Creativity. Pyrokinesis, the summoning of Ifrit, thematic flame magics (cauterization, creation of passion, damage over time effects), and all fundamentally 'creative' magics - from inciting a wellspring of inspiration to creating a barrier against incoming harm, to the creation of life itself. Casting style: Wand Magic, which requires a focus implement but otherwise no verbiage and only very brief, quick movements.
--Specialist Bonus: Fire-Keeper - The raw power of flame yields a simple yet critical benefit. If you specialize in this suit, its associated magics will receive an additional major bonus to effectiveness and versatility. Fire burns brightly, but not eternally: this bonus slightly erodes the more times it is used in quick succession, but restores itself over time. Better one decisive conflagration than a trillion trifling embers.
*Cups - Water and Emotion. Hydrokinesis, including eventual control over ice and all other liquids; the creation of supernatural potions, poultices, salves and tinctures, the summoning of Marids, and all fundamentally transformative magics - from altering someone's emotional state to increasing their strength to transforming them into a newt. Dual casting styles: Raw Manifestation, which channels pure emotion to create powerful but somewhat ill-controlled effects, and Potioncraft (self-explanatory). While the former is less useful in the day-to-day, it is often the most potent in times of dire need, and the specialist of Cups can rely on the latter for more consistent utility.
--Specialist Bonus: Holy Grail - The power of the Cups suit to regulate emotions grants its adept a degree of perspective and balance. The world may shift like the changing of the tides, yet the sea itself remains undiminished. If you specialize in this suit, moderately discount all Will costs; substantially discount Will costs related to magics associated with this suit.
*Pentacles - Earth and the Material. Terrakinesis, including ferrokinesis; the creation of artifacts and vestments, the manufacture of Golems and other material servitors, and all magics related to matter and the material world, including the summoning of actual individuals from, theoretically, any physical realm. Casting style: Ritual Magic (including Artifice). Relatively slow and requiring preparation, but mightier in potential effect than even Manifestation, and just as precise as Hermetic Magics. With time and foresight, the artificer is the mightiest magus of all.
--Specialist Bonus: Terra Firma - Matter is the gross reflection of the spirit supernal; why should he whose spirit is so kingly, be consigned to common form? The specialist's strength, precise control, durability and stamina are all enhanced to superhuman levels. The degree of this enhancement scales with the magnitude of his past accomplishments in artifice & ritual magic. Even should his tower fall, and great works be unraveled, his magnificent physique shall stand as shining testament to his achievements on this earth.
To clarify, you are not locked into your casting style, but the spells granted by this bonus will typically be of that style, and spells not cast in that style typically will not benefit from your Specialist Bonus.
---
Below is the older, deprecated King of Magi:
Upgraded King of Magi (250 Will, 25 SC)
*As per the baseline, but his weakness to Fate is strongly mitigated; he is much more easily able to twist, invert, or rules lawyer the threads of fate into relatively preferable configurations, so long as they are somewhat narratively satisfying. Perhaps he may not be able to insert himself as protagonist, but either antagonist or deuteragonist would be doable.
*Greater potency, versatility, and potential of magic overall compared to the baseline. More easily accrues completed spells passively, or as a result of things he was already going to do (for example - by saving the nerd from bullying, he might learn a powerful protective ward in addition).
*Much greater ability to enchant, augment, or otherwise aid others; and to benefit from the dispensation of such aid, as if the Hermit: the Enlightener role had been appended to this one, if through a magical lens.
---
Most of my arguments for why this role fits Solomon are already present in the original King of Magi post, please consider them re-iterated now. Here are some further arguments:
*Great power should not be handed to those who will use it to excessively exploit others. Solomon just wants a long and comfy life, so he is someone that can be trusted to hold this role better than most.
*That someone with Solomon's name should take this role strongly fits the principle of "as above, so below" that is key to the interpretation of the card.
*Solomon's nature also strongly fits the card in the sense that he possess exceptional mundane genius; per "as above, so below," it's only natural that such genius would thence be reflected in his Enrolled manifestation.
*As to the card itself: The Magician's robe is white, symbolizing purity; Solomon is pure both in the sense that he is presumably a virgin (?) and also because he lacks most of the worldly desires that constrain humanity. His cloak is red, symbolizing rubedo, the completed form of alchemy, wisdom made manifest: as symbolic analogue to his own predictive ability, there is little more fitting. The infinity symbol above his brow is yet another analogue of the same.
*Solomon should try to determine if the Educator cares strongly about realizing or maximizing his charges' potential; if so, he should argue that the King of Magi role most definitively does that for Solomon himself: a means of supernal influence as represented by the wand aloft turns Solomon from a passive contemplator of the world to an active channel between his ideals ("above") and reality ("below").
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- Location
- washington
hmm not to say this wouldn't work as this seems likely to be a special circumstance. But Birdsie did say any write in efb on discord would cost 50 sc. This might be fine though I dunno.
- Location
- 𐌂 ̢͎̩̤̲̙͓̑̀͂͒̀͆̏𐋏 ̛͏̫̚𐌀 ̛͉̥̩̤̰͈̂̅͒͊͟𐍈 ̣͛𐍃 ̡̅̈́
Hmm, maybe we should try to use our own deck for card reading? We now in the world/dimention, which somehow related to the Concept of Tarot. So maybe it makes sense to try, maybe even for others.
Edit: We could even suggest it right in class. We already demonstrated our precognitive potential. So maybe they would accept Card Reading from us. Maybe it even would work. This just sounds interesting thing to try.
Edit: We could even suggest it right in class. We already demonstrated our precognitive potential. So maybe they would accept Card Reading from us. Maybe it even would work. This just sounds interesting thing to try.
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Rihaku
The Internet
I've searched his discord posts and didn't find that one. Timestamp? I'm mostly interested in making sure the weakness to fate is at a reasonable level; the amount of actual magical power added can be adjusted to keep it overall sane.
- Location
- washington
I mean if its an efb it shouldn't be sane. But, I get what you want.
- Location
- washington
Hmm yeah I can't find it, am tired, don't even remember what day he said it on. Best to just wait for him to get up and ask him if there's an exception to this here. I'm not lying or anything he mentioned if we ever wanted to make a write in efb it'd cost 50 sc. But, this could easily be an exception especially cause its barely a write in as birdsie made most of the option and you just upped the power, versatility, and dealt with the downsides.
By the way I slightly disagree on the downsides of cultivator their sort of there but I feel they aren't much of an issue for a variety of reasons. For combating classmates we have a weapon and they don't and we all start weak. If its an upperclassmen we're screwed for now anyways. For its slow pace eh it a steady increase and we'll be having skips I believe. Also it requires no effort to accumulte power or very little effort perfect for the loafer. For worries about isolation its definitely a theme but characters can clearly ignore downsides to a degree when it comes to other enrollers and the role mentions looking at the inner and outer world. The latter obviously being the world and its people. Plus none of the role actually tells us what we have to do.
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- Location
- 𐌂 ̢͎̩̤̲̙͓̑̀͂͒̀͆̏𐋏 ̛͏̫̚𐌀 ̛͉̥̩̤̰͈̂̅͒͊͟𐍈 ̣͛𐍃 ̡̅̈́
Denial of Predestination may be useful in situations, where people must win against all odds. But how much this prediction power up would affect our guy?
- Location
- Louisiana
8/02 at 8:43. Exact quote: "you won't get to write-in many (if any) powers without a lot of SC simply for the privilege"
"A write-in EFB effectively costs 50 SC"
Rihaku
The Internet
It sounds like he's referring to freeform write-in Achievements similar to Immersion. That wouldn't affect this vote, which has an explicit Write-In option with a defined cost.
EDIT: It's been clarified on Discord that any write-in using the 25 SC option can be up to the Hermit: The Cultivator's level in power.
EDIT: It's been clarified on Discord that any write-in using the 25 SC option can be up to the Hermit: The Cultivator's level in power.
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This will probably make the prophecies even more powerful, but I expect that it will be more focused on finding key points in fate, intervention in which will help change the future with minimal effort. In general, everything that will help to effectively destroy predestination in the way we need.
- Location
- 𐌂 ̢͎̩̤̲̙͓̑̀͂͒̀͆̏𐋏 ̛͏̫̚𐌀 ̛͉̥̩̤̰͈̂̅͒͊͟𐍈 ̣͛𐍃 ̡̅̈́
Bifurcation points. Wheel of Fortune is my second option, if the first would not work.
I intented to write some arguments to reduce cost for King of Magi, but @Rihaku already beat me to the punch, it seems. That said, my vote here:
[X] Wheel of Fortune: Denial of Predestination
[X] The Magician: King of Magi
I don't dislike the Cultivator, but those two are my preferred choices. Wheel I like for synergies with predictions and the insane potential that fate manipulation has (and I don't see anything wrong in working in the background as an unseen guardian angel). KoM I like because of upfront, consistent powers with good flexibility, a not-inconsiderable scaling potential thanks to building a collection of servants and artifacts over time and narrative weight that legacy of Solomon the Magus offers, both in-universe and out-of-universe.
[X] Wheel of Fortune: Denial of Predestination
[X] The Magician: King of Magi
I don't dislike the Cultivator, but those two are my preferred choices. Wheel I like for synergies with predictions and the insane potential that fate manipulation has (and I don't see anything wrong in working in the background as an unseen guardian angel). KoM I like because of upfront, consistent powers with good flexibility, a not-inconsiderable scaling potential thanks to building a collection of servants and artifacts over time and narrative weight that legacy of Solomon the Magus offers, both in-universe and out-of-universe.
Is it just me, or is Damien really hated by most of the class? Or are they just afraid that as soon as Damien gets the power, he will arrange a Carrie-style entertainment for everyone?
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Rihaku
Time to put on our robes and wizard hat. Let's see here...
It would be nice to not so aggressively speedrun the quest we're in, for once. Cultivator is powerful, but it's an awkward tool for true exploration of the world due to its ironic sacrifice theme. If we want to gather information, we'd need to sacrifice the desire for that information. If we want to do things, we have to figure out ways to use unsuited tools towards the ends we actually desire.
It's not unworkable, because Sol's baseline capabilities are just that high, but it would require more mental effort from the players. King of Magi, meanwhile, is rewarded for doing the shit we actually want to do with the tools that make us more effective at doing that stuff. Inspire someone's in despair and give ourselves the power to bless their future, find out ancient secrets and become better at divination etc.
That it provides a more convenient user experience leaves us with the time and energy to think about what we'd actually want and how we'd go about getting it, while not turning Sol into a perfectly smooth operator that's just discarded his flaws and defining character traits/memes.
Time to put on our robes and wizard hat. Let's see here...
It would be nice to not so aggressively speedrun the quest we're in, for once. Cultivator is powerful, but it's an awkward tool for true exploration of the world due to its ironic sacrifice theme. If we want to gather information, we'd need to sacrifice the desire for that information. If we want to do things, we have to figure out ways to use unsuited tools towards the ends we actually desire.
It's not unworkable, because Sol's baseline capabilities are just that high, but it would require more mental effort from the players. King of Magi, meanwhile, is rewarded for doing the shit we actually want to do with the tools that make us more effective at doing that stuff. Inspire someone's in despair and give ourselves the power to bless their future, find out ancient secrets and become better at divination etc.
That it provides a more convenient user experience leaves us with the time and energy to think about what we'd actually want and how we'd go about getting it, while not turning Sol into a perfectly smooth operator that's just discarded his flaws and defining character traits/memes.
It's probably a fusion of both-the bullies certainly don't want Damien to get a hold of a power that could thrash them, and also they just hate him and don't want him to do well. The others in the class might not hate him, but they might fear the bullies and what Damien might do to them for standing aside.