I mean, there are plenty of Hereteks who consort with Xenos technology out of a thirst of knowledge, while still holding onto some sort of belief in the Machine God. I think Vidriov being willing to co-operate with an alien intelligence isn't too much of a stretch based off of his established characterization, especially given how Vidriov seems to be in awe of Tide's gravemind capabilities, including the display of hundreds of long-dead factories being operated in concert by Tide-forms.
The Galaxy is Flood, Not Food
- Thread starter Jackson Fox
- Start date
- Crossover Sci-Fi Horror
Brimstone
Tends To Stay At Rest
Also, people going "wow a techpriest would never be swayed by a xenos or abruptly stop following the orthodox mechanicus faith's rules" really do be forgetting about Hereteks, Dark Mechanicus, your average cogboy when nobody's looking, Belisarius Cawl at any given moment, etc.
Tide is gonna be curious how Belisarius Cawl managed to complete the Primaris Marines Project for 10,000 years without tipping off the Inquisition and Chaos at the same time.
And I won't be surprised if the Cursed Founding turned out be Cawl's work from the shadows.
Because when you make the mother of all omelettes, you can't fret over every egg.
- Location
- America
This is incredibly informative and logical. I have been logic plague into thinking your way, congratulations. I feel like the author should pin this if it is accurate.
@Balra makes a case strong enough I don't see his conversion as implausible, but I do see it as understated and kinda underdone. Our first logic-plague conversion was a detailed look into both sides, as Tide carefully curated his knowledge (from *our* perspective, which is important that readers see) to suit her questions and reshape her worldview into something both 'grander' but also still suitable to Tide's needs at the time.
We don't really get that here. It's 'no, no, stop guessing about shit you don't understand, *generic cosmic knowledge blast*, fine whatever this works.' it feels much less intimate or meaningful when Tide himself seems almost annoyed. He absolutely has the right to be given this guy has just caused him a lot of problems, but it comes through a bit too easily in his conversation given his previous control over his own emotions.
Our Zealot kinda just asks half-questions and stands in awe untill he's totally convinced, and it feels kinda incomplete without that conversation beyond 'heres the truth of the world', and his immediate and total acceptance (obviously an exaggeration but it gets across the 'feel'). I suspect the mind-incursion at the start was supposed to reassure us of his trust in this figure, but as outside-context readers it looks like a guy gets mind raped with open arms and a smile on his face. Not impossible but requiring a bit of extra work that I didn't really feel was done to connect his worldview to our own. Even with last chapter building up his acceptance of Tide, that was Organism-04, not an intelligent lifeform. (For a 'comparison in the minds of the reader' example: You can like a particularly stylish brand of clothes, but if you find out it can feel, modify, and observe you, I imagine your response is not gonna be elation)
So this chapter feels not so much 'impossible' as 'underbaked'. Feels like one the author couldn't quite decide what they wanted out of. Did they want a Zealot snapping from Machine God to Flood, or another expansion of knowledge via logic-plague that this time doesn't really change the character's outlook substantially? I get the impression a strong, unifying character or trait was trying to be defined (like how OG-logic-plague-girl was an abused but good natured person lacking perspective) but didn't really get accurately defined. Do we think of him as a Zealot? Yes, but given his screentime the impression was at least a little less multifaceted then it probably was meant to be.
We don't really get that here. It's 'no, no, stop guessing about shit you don't understand, *generic cosmic knowledge blast*, fine whatever this works.' it feels much less intimate or meaningful when Tide himself seems almost annoyed. He absolutely has the right to be given this guy has just caused him a lot of problems, but it comes through a bit too easily in his conversation given his previous control over his own emotions.
Our Zealot kinda just asks half-questions and stands in awe untill he's totally convinced, and it feels kinda incomplete without that conversation beyond 'heres the truth of the world', and his immediate and total acceptance (obviously an exaggeration but it gets across the 'feel'). I suspect the mind-incursion at the start was supposed to reassure us of his trust in this figure, but as outside-context readers it looks like a guy gets mind raped with open arms and a smile on his face. Not impossible but requiring a bit of extra work that I didn't really feel was done to connect his worldview to our own. Even with last chapter building up his acceptance of Tide, that was Organism-04, not an intelligent lifeform. (For a 'comparison in the minds of the reader' example: You can like a particularly stylish brand of clothes, but if you find out it can feel, modify, and observe you, I imagine your response is not gonna be elation)
So this chapter feels not so much 'impossible' as 'underbaked'. Feels like one the author couldn't quite decide what they wanted out of. Did they want a Zealot snapping from Machine God to Flood, or another expansion of knowledge via logic-plague that this time doesn't really change the character's outlook substantially? I get the impression a strong, unifying character or trait was trying to be defined (like how OG-logic-plague-girl was an abused but good natured person lacking perspective) but didn't really get accurately defined. Do we think of him as a Zealot? Yes, but given his screentime the impression was at least a little less multifaceted then it probably was meant to be.
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I think if vidriov push back against tide reasoning a little bit would've made the conversion feel more natural. Trying to deny tide words by resighting a prayer or something like that.
Still a good chapter and not at unbelievable for vidriov to convert quickly. Given what we know about him.
BTW thanks for giving us the perspective of the scion, stuff like that helps make the world feel alive.
Still a good chapter and not at unbelievable for vidriov to convert quickly. Given what we know about him.
BTW thanks for giving us the perspective of the scion, stuff like that helps make the world feel alive.
Chaos convert a lot quickly as well. Look what happened to some Traitor Primarchs like Mortarion, Fulgrim, Angron, Magnus and Horus for example.
Ehh, they weren't turned that quickly. Most of them had resentment building for decades. Especially Angron.
Honestly… yeah, I think I could do this chapter better. And I think I will. I'm going to rewrite this chapter with the criticisms given in mind and post the (hopefully) improved version of it on Friday.
To be honest, I wasn't perfectly pleased with this chapter when I posted it originally, but I wasn't sure what exactly I wasn't happy with. Your words and the words of others have really clarified that for me, so thank you.
<3
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@Jackson Fox its probably better that Tide makes the zealot think he's one of the omnimessiah so he doesn't deal with a man who will definitely feel like he's doom his people by trusting that the flood was something that was actually a blessing
On the lower end of a Flood outbreak, the Logic Plague is just rolling high on charisma checks, on the higher end though it is basically "hippity hopping your mind is now my property". I think we're reaching towards the first full Keymind pretty soon here.
Neruz
Rogue Spiderbanana
- Location
- The Land of Fire and Poison
Angron fell because large parts of his brain were replaced by a DAoT nanotech torture device.
The Emperor's attempt to salvage Angron was doomed from the start, and frankly he would have been far better off to just deep six Angron like the two lost Primarchs and move on.
But for some inexplicable reason (cough the writers wrote themselves into a corner cough) Emps instead decides to try and make use of Angron, with predictable results.
Except Fulgrim, who grew up fine and dandy until he picked up some magic sword and got possessed. And then fully turned to Chaos completely after possession.
And Mortarion easily gave in to Nurgle after Typhus led them to a trap.
Horus got some mumbo jumbo by the Chaos knife and turned against Big E.
- Location
- colombia
Stygies VIII is a major forgeworld (of the likes of mars,metallica and agripinna)
And is openly "steal xeno tech"
Vidriov has been stablished as a fool willing to gamble lifes with unknown biological agents
Tide has access to the logic plague etc
So him turning is not a surprise
Nonetheless agree that this should have been a development spread over 3 chapters rather than sandwiched into a single one
And that tide and vidriov should had some form of theology discussion
TIde explaining all the context of 40k and halo and why that doesnt make him a god
Only to vidriov to answer with a:
Not even a zealout mindless retort,but an actual logic driven argument
"You are a embodiment of neural physics,thats more than enough to make you an avatar of the motive force in admech theology....you get that right?"
Purilla conversion was all about receiving mercy,forgiveness,self love and showing compassion
Vidriov conversion should have been tide equivalent of "the last church", a discussion of faiths and beliefs, with vidriov doing self introspection over what points of his faith are flawed and wich still stand
I can see vidriov turning into a ally
I dont see vidriov becoming faithless,because objectively speaking he is right
>The universe is a grand mechanism with some form of natural order and meaning behind
>The motive force exist as neural physics
>Living beings can ascend to become avatars of the forces that shape reality (precursors,ctans,old ones etc)
>knowledge can be saved into a repository made off the motive force (neural physics domain)
>the guidance and protection of inmature species towards becoming trascendant is a worthy porpuse on its own (mantle of responsability)
Vidriov isnt a man whose faith been proved wrong
He is a man whose core tennets of faith been proved right
but the doctrine he had was rough around the edges because of on incomplete data leading to the admech not getting the full picture
but now he has most of the picture as result of the info given through revelation from the avatar of neural physics itself and he can make a reform of admech beliefs
Tide refusal of the term godhood is hilarious
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Tide: "For the last time, I am not The Messiah!"
His ever growing group of followers: "He is The Messiah!"
*At the Golden Throne*
TTS Throne Emperor: "YES! THAT'S HOW IT FEELS!"
- Location
- colombia
And both tide and the emperor are wrong
They would be MOOD KINDRED when it comes to denying their divinity yet does godlike feats anyway, lol.
- Location
- Euclidean plane
One thing about the mass worship/belief I notice is it's more subtle reality-warping tendencies.
Like.. it's kinda the most obvious in Orks. Part of their shtick is what they believe, happens. Humans are just much slower and weaker in the process, but if you stick around enough millennia.. Well, there have been many hints about how ten thousands years of worship by ridiculous numbers of people have done something to the Emperor.
Just imagine, in ten thousand years Tide's avatar is sporting twenty foot power armor, pauldrons the size of grown men, and a reverberating voice full of power no matter how much he tries to shift it away. His motto has devolved into a theme of 'really guys?' and a constant facepalm is the trademark in all his statues.
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- Location
- Cambridge MA
As Tide, I would be inclined to focus on:
(It makes sense that DAoT humanity would want to build a webway. It makes sense that Immaterium manipulation would be best performed using minds/souls. It makes sense to not want to interfere with those peoples' lives. It makes sense to want your infrastructure to be self-replicating, like a plague. If you're building a benevolent plague, it makes sense to make sure it at minimum immunizes you to other plagues.)
I think the biggest problem with this approach is that he winds up presenting himself as an artificial intelligence. I think the way to approach this is to use Vidriov's understanding of machine spirits, which are (a) artificial, (b) intelligent, and (c) allowed/permitted. I would guess convincing Vidriov he's permitted by doctrine might involve the combination of him being (a) Warp-immune via pseudo-webway, (b) made out of human minds/souls (true of his SI, though that doesn't need to be explained, but also most of his neural supporting structure/graveminds are human), (c) not xenos, and (d) hardware-locked rather than 100% software like AIs/Men of Iron (I'm not sure how important this is, but it's also true of machine spirits and maybe Men of Stone).
- Originating from humanity: the SI was originally born to human parents, and thus was created by humanity. The Flood was created by Bungie, humans. While there are some unsolved questions and complexities to both of those, the previous two origination claims are true.
- The Flood is clearly artificial, and extremely advanced technology. This is clear from examining it at an object level. Tide knows the immediate technological designers were the Precursors, but if he just explains the artificial, technological nature and combines it with (1) the conclusion is obvious.
- There is a clear analogy between Neural Physics and the Webway, in that you are constructing artificial realspace outside of reality with modified physical laws (e.g. distance in the webway doesn't match up with distance in the Materium proper), and that certain levels of interaction between it and realspace can somewhat modify physics in realspace (can you make a daemon world, but with the webway? It seems possible, and like it could enable controlled, technological physics warping that would look a lot like what's possible with Neural Physics).
- Tide can also provide Webway/Infinity Circuits-like benefits afaik, though he hesitates to do so to anyone who would normally go to the Emperor.
- Tide doesn't know his history (and is young), but knows it exists. For example, the neural physics structure in which his mind exists (the place that has the rift into the Warp) is vastly beyond his ability to create right now, but theoretically within his ability with enough size/minds.
- That the Flood naturally gives rise to intelligence when it interacts with enough minds.
- That he wants to help humanity, and that it's probably not a coincidence that he wants to help humanity. (The implication here would be that the desire is part of the Flood by design)
(It makes sense that DAoT humanity would want to build a webway. It makes sense that Immaterium manipulation would be best performed using minds/souls. It makes sense to not want to interfere with those peoples' lives. It makes sense to want your infrastructure to be self-replicating, like a plague. If you're building a benevolent plague, it makes sense to make sure it at minimum immunizes you to other plagues.)
I think the biggest problem with this approach is that he winds up presenting himself as an artificial intelligence. I think the way to approach this is to use Vidriov's understanding of machine spirits, which are (a) artificial, (b) intelligent, and (c) allowed/permitted. I would guess convincing Vidriov he's permitted by doctrine might involve the combination of him being (a) Warp-immune via pseudo-webway, (b) made out of human minds/souls (true of his SI, though that doesn't need to be explained, but also most of his neural supporting structure/graveminds are human), (c) not xenos, and (d) hardware-locked rather than 100% software like AIs/Men of Iron (I'm not sure how important this is, but it's also true of machine spirits and maybe Men of Stone).
Neruz
Rogue Spiderbanana
- Location
- The Land of Fire and Poison
The Flood isn't actually 'artificial' or 'technology' per say, it's what happens when you disintegrate immortal transcendent Lovecraftian entities into microscopic dust and because they are properly immortal the dust is still alive and now it is very upset.
The fact that Precursors are aware of themselves on a cellular level does mean that their biology looks like some kind of advanced technology though, because normally you need advanced technology to do things on that scale.
The fact that Precursors are aware of themselves on a cellular level does mean that their biology looks like some kind of advanced technology though, because normally you need advanced technology to do things on that scale.
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- Location
- England
If being a heretical xenos was enough to make the Mechanicus turn away from the Quest of Knowledge then the Mechanicus would be a whole lot more stable than it currently is.
What people should believe in and what they are willing to actually believe in not being the same thing is pretty much a central pillar of Warhammer. You think those trillions of heretics poof into existence from the ether?
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- Location
- Philippines
That is a fascinating point of view for how Vidriov could see it, and honestly, I could definitely see that gaining steam in the mechanicum. Their beliefs were correct, just incomplete. Even the dogma needed a quest of knowledge to perfect and he found it.Stygies VIII is a major forgeworld (of the likes of mars,metallica and agripinna)
And is openly "steal xeno tech"
Vidriov has been stablished as a fool willing to gamble lifes with unknown biological agents
Tide has access to the logic plague etc
So him turning is not a surprise
Nonetheless agree that this should have been a development spread over 3 chapters rather than sandwiched into a single one
And that tide and vidriov should had some form of theology discussion
TIde explaining all the context of 40k and halo and why that doesnt make him a god
Only to vidriov to answer with a:
Not even a zealout mindless retort,but an actual logic driven argument
"You are a embodiment of neural physics,thats more than enough to make you an avatar of the motive force in admech theology....you get that right?"
Purilla conversion was all about receiving mercy,forgiveness,self love and showing compassion
Vidriov conversion should have been tide equivalent of "the last church", a discussion of faiths and beliefs, with vidriov doing self introspection over what points of his faith are flawed and wich still stand
I can see vidriov turning into a ally
I dont see vidriov becoming faithless,because objectively speaking he is right
>The universe is a grand mechanism with some form of natural order and meaning behind
>The motive force exist as neural physics
>Living beings can ascend to become avatars of the forces that shape reality (precursors,ctans,old ones etc)
>knowledge can be saved into a repository made off the motive force (neural physics domain)
>the guidance and protection of inmature species towards becoming trascendant is a worthy porpuse on its own (mantle of responsability)
Vidriov isnt a man whose faith been proved wrong
He is a man whose core tennets of faith been proved right
but the doctrine he had was rough around the edges because of on incomplete data leading to the admech not getting the full picture
but now he has most of the picture as result of the info given through revelation from the avatar of neural physics itself and he can make a reform of admech beliefs
Tide refusal of the term godhood is hilarious
Btw, I didn't manage to read the chapter so I'm looking forward to tue improved version XD.
??? Good luck with your edits I guess, I thought it was fine.