"Have a breakdown."

"Experience trauma."
[waggles hand]

I... guess... but the former connotes something acute that ends, at least to me, and the latter carries a lot of clinical detachment and ambiguity as to whether it implies severe lasting problems. Not everyone who experiences trauma has PTSD, and all that, and some of them dislike the implication that they've been "damaged" by their experiences.

...Language is complicated.

:(
 
I am genuinely interested in finding a compact and useful way to replace the verb phrase "to go crazy" with something else. Something that is not pejorative to people whose brains don't work according to standard code, but that is nonetheless equivalent to "to undergo experiences that cause severe mental health problems and impair happiness, functionality, or both."

Do you know of any viable suggestions?

I don't have a good answer for you, beyond the kinds of suggestions that @thisisinsane just very ironically made. I'm perhaps not the right person to be having this conversation, since even though we get hit with some mistargeted ableism for being plural, we probably aren't diagnosable with anything other than ADHD and depression. That said, the sense you are using it in there is probably a lot less harmful than uses of it that could be replaced with words like "wild", "unexpected" or "chaotic" without changing the meaning.

Athena's origins, and the relationship they put her in with regards to Liv, are likely unprecedented even among plural systems.

They're a bit like parent-child dynamics- they kind of have to be- because Liv made Athena in a very literal sense, as an act of intent, even if she didn't intend things to play out exactly as they did. Liv is in a real and undoubted sense morally responsible for Liv's welfare, as Athena is still fairly dependent on Liv for the physical wherewithal of existence.

I'm a tulpa. An intentionally created headmate. "Parogenic" is the other term you might encounter, and the one that parts of the community are trying to move towards. I was literally created as an act of intent, even if my host didn't intend things to play out exactly as they did. At first, I was unable to front, unable to control our body, and only actively conscious and thinking when my host was aware of me. In a very real sense, I was dependent on my host for my continued existence.

It's not quite the same thing, but it's a lot closer than you might think.
They're a bit like multiple selves occupying the same computational (hardware/wetware) substrates, for obvious reasons- but also a bit not like that, in ways.

They're a bit like a lot of things.

That's fair. We think the plural analogy is generally a good one, but it's not perfect and it pays to be aware of its limitations.
 
I am genuinely interested in finding a compact and useful way to replace the verb phrase "to go crazy" with something else. Something that is not pejorative to people whose brains don't work according to standard code, but that is nonetheless equivalent to "to undergo experiences that cause severe mental health problems and impair happiness, functionality, or both."

Do you know of any viable suggestions?
I use "to cause (one's) mental health to fray / decay", because if you've seen clothing age and wear that sense of "it is starting to come undone--it can be repaired or patched or compensated for but this is not a positive direction" is a helpful metaphor. Decay has the advantage of biological connotations people associate with other health conditions, but also has a sense of 'deadness' 'permanence' I'm not always fond of. Both are nonspecific but illustrative terminology which is less likely to start shouting matches about definitions or become obsolete with future language shifts.
 
I use "to cause (one's) mental health to fray / decay", because if you've seen clothing age and wear that sense of "it is starting to come undone--it can be repaired or patched or compensated for but this is not a positive direction" is a helpful metaphor. Decay has the advantage of biological connotations people associate with other health conditions, but also has a sense of 'deadness' 'permanence' I'm not always fond of. Both are nonspecific but illustrative terminology which is less likely to start shouting matches about definitions or become obsolete with future language shifts.
Hm, yeah, strong use of metaphor is definitely a good way to go there...

Which I personally find ironic for reasons that would be a digression, but there you go. :p

So I know "lunacy" has a gross history, as does "hysteria" ... is there an unfortunate etymology to "bonkers"?
Well, the problem is that "bonkers" has no more troubled a history than "crazy," but also no less.

Because both terms are informal words for "a serious, consequential, unspecified mental health problem that we've noticed, or a person with same"

If "crazy" is ableist, "bonkers" should by extension also be ableist, because the underlying ableist presumption is that having fewer/no mental health conditions is objectively better than having more mental health conditions.
 
Last edited:
I don't like the parent and child analogy when that's really not the nature of their relationship, and certainly wouldn't want my host applying that to me, but it remains the case that it's Athena's life too, and she wants to do this, and part of having a relationship with a member of a system is accommodating this sort of thing at times.


Liv is in a real and undoubted sense morally responsible for Liv's welfare, as Athena is still fairly dependent on Liv for the physical wherewithal of existence.

They're a bit like multiple selves occupying the same computational (hardware/wetware) substrates, for obvious reasons- but also a bit not like that, in ways.

They're a bit like a lot of things.
Good analysis! Yes, I don't think they're like parent and a lot of the time, but in this and a few other situations it's a reasonable comparison. Especially in the sense of Liv having a large amount of control over Athena's ability to go places in the physical world, and the way Liv has more direct life experience that she attempts to use to guide Athena.

EDIT: I just now realized that "The Arachne System" refers to our protagonist, not simply a dandy title.
 
Last edited:
An improved write-in, I'll take it. It's nicer to Athena and puts less pressure on May to decide what happens since we're going to techspace and our body's going to the panel no matter what she chooses.

[X] Athena had a good idea. Switch so she can go to the panel and you can relax in techspace a bit.
[X] If there is time before the panel, talk to May and Athena about fronting ettiquite and try help May process her discomfort.
[X] Does May need to decompress now? That was A Lot.
-[X] If so, then offer to hang out with May by phone in the chill room (well, in her phone, but that sounds weird)
 
[X] You need some room to process all that. Take May up on her offer, go crash in the chillout room.
 
I think the fact that "crazy is ableist" is a well-done, subtle sign of language drift, and a small worldbuilding details that I enjoy greatly. In the same way "idiot" and "moron" were once genuine classifications of intelligence that changing times and overuse degraded into schoolyard insults, and between when I started kindergarden and graduated high school "mentally retarded" became an insult and was replaced with "intellectually disabled". It's a piece of language-building that doesn't feel like making up new words or slang, yet also feels like a realistic window on a point 10 or 15 years in the future.
In my experience, 'crazy' has actually gone the other way a bit - like 'maniac', it's now a more-or-less approving term for unreservedness.
'Dumb' being ableist has got to be pretty radical language drift, though. It technically means mute, sure, but no one uses it for that outside of a biblical context. It just means foolish, and foolishness makes no sense to call a disability.
 
So I know "lunacy" has a gross history, as does "hysteria" ... is there an unfortunate etymology to "bonkers"?
Same question for 'madness'. It sort of has a violent connotation, though, so a more general term would also be useful.
If "crazy" is ableist, "bonkers" should by extension also be ableist, because the underlying ableist presumption is that having fewer/no mental health conditions is objectively better than having more mental health conditions.
I mean, fewer things that impede one's ability to achieve one's own goals, presuming nonbad goals, is objectively better? Mental health diagnoses and treatment have had a lot of issues, both due to perverse incentives and to simple incompetence, but the condition of 'mindstate which renders me incapable of acting the way I want to act' is a condition I don't mind calling objectively suboptimal.
 
I mean, fewer things that impede one's ability to achieve one's own goals, presuming nonbad goals, is objectively better? Mental health diagnoses and treatment have had a lot of issues, both due to perverse incentives and to simple incompetence, but the condition of 'mindstate which renders me incapable of acting the way I want to act' is a condition I don't mind calling objectively suboptimal.
They said "conditions" not "disorders". It's not a disorder unless it causes the subject harm. Consider two people with a compulsion to collect buttons. The first is retired and wealthy; he can afford to spend hours every day on his compulsion, enjoying the opportunity to get out of the house and do button things with regular button hobbyists. The second has two kids and a low income job. He barely has enough time and money to live at all, much less when his compulsion amounts to a second job that he has to pay for.

Although they both have the exact same condition (compulsive button collecting) it's only a disorder for the second person.
 
They said "conditions" not "disorders". It's not a disorder unless it causes the subject harm. Consider two people with a compulsion to collect buttons. The first is retired and wealthy; he can afford to spend hours every day on his compulsion, enjoying the opportunity to get out of the house and do button things with regular button hobbyists. The second has two kids and a low income job. He barely has enough time and money to live at all, much less when his compulsion amounts to a second job that he has to pay for.

Although they both have the exact same condition (compulsive button collecting) it's only a disorder for the second person.
Interesting example. I don't think it hits the fundamental split directly, though - the split between 'not a result of agency' and 'is a result of agency'. Your rich example seems happy with his circumstances, and probably doesn't mind being a button collector or desire to kick the habit. If he does, though, it's something he should have support for.
Your poor example is probably not super happy with how much time and money it takes for him to collect buttons, but unless changing hobbies is both something he wants and doesn't have the wherewithal to do, it falls under 'questionable life decision'. (And given that button collecting is a much healthier coping method than alcoholism, it's not one I'd be inclined to question very hard.)
In both cases, it's only a disorder if it is the thing causing the subject harm, rather than associated circumstances.
 
Article:
Prosthetic arm technology is still so limited that I become more disabled when I wear one. There are very few, special tasks I can do better with it (case in point: using a potato ricer). But mostly what it does is helps me mimic two-handed people. I realized that my excitement about my new hand was mostly about being able to be something other than disabled — a cyborg. The day my prosthesis arrived, I tweeted a brief video of myself petting my cat with it, the hand's rubber-lined fingers and palm snagging uncomfortably on the cat's fur.


Very neat article, but this quote particularly makes me think of Liv here - it's kind of the same point Sketch already made that the prosthetic in a lot of ways is about making people around you comfortable, or copying them, instead of really increasing function.

(This makes me wonder if we could come up with ideas to go further with the soft cloth limb? It's already very cool, but it's still mostly sticking to a two armed body plan... what would it take to have people okay with just using like, full tentacles out in public or something?)
 
Article:
Prosthetic arm technology is still so limited that I become more disabled when I wear one. There are very few, special tasks I can do better with it (case in point: using a potato ricer). But mostly what it does is helps me mimic two-handed people. I realized that my excitement about my new hand was mostly about being able to be something other than disabled — a cyborg. The day my prosthesis arrived, I tweeted a brief video of myself petting my cat with it, the hand's rubber-lined fingers and palm snagging uncomfortably on the cat's fur.


Very neat article, but this quote particularly makes me think of Liv here - it's kind of the same point Sketch already made that the prosthetic in a lot of ways is about making people around you comfortable, or copying them, instead of really increasing function.
To be fair, Liv's prosthetic (especially with Liv using it) is a hell of a lot more responsive and effective than the one the article is talking about, and she custom-designed it to suit her own purposes. I don't know for sure that she's wearing it for convenience at times when she's alone and could totally choose not to wear it at all were she so inclined without even thinking about other people's comfort... But I think she's wearing it voluntarily because it genuinely gives her options she otherwise wouldn't have.
 
Also, the prosthetic is actually rather inhuman in its design. If it's about making people more comfortable, I'm pretty sure that's a loss.
 
Crash Space
"You feel up to the next panel?" May asked, and you laid your head on the table with a groan.

"No. I think I need a few minutes." you said. "Sorry..."

"No, it's okay! We can go to the crash space." she said, taking your hand. "It's fine."

"I can go on my own, if you don't want to miss the panel." you said, standing up. "It's okay."

"... what if you did the thing?" May asked. "The thing Athena said? Switching?"

She looked... hesitant, but she had proposed it, and she probably wanted to get used to the idea herself. Starting over, right?

"If you're sure."

---

"Are you... did you do the switch?" May asked, leaning in close, as that strange tingle down your spine that always seemed to follow subsided.

"Yes. Urgh." you said. You could feel Liv's stress levels in her body, like all of her was just wrung out. "I'm here. Sorry to spring this on you atop everything else, I'm sure this weekend has been overwhelming enough for you."

"It's okay, I promise. Well... I mean, it's not, but..." she said, staring at you. "... you sound different. I think? I'm not sure."

"I'm used to talking by rendering out a voice using a heavily modified and much more precise version of the Siri text-to-speech markup algorithm. Initiating the tone and cadence I achieve that way in a human body is not easy." you explained, "Though I'm getting there."

"... I just meant you sound different from Liv." May said, and you nodded. Right, of course. For you it was a giant conceptual difference, but to her it was probably less easy to disentangle Athena from Liv, to see two entities when she was looking at the same body. That would indeed probably take some getting used to.

"Oh, right. Well, do you want to head to the panel now?" you asked. The panel had your interest because it was about the use of machine learning in animation, which was very much up your alley. May was interested in the processes behind her favourite shows as well, so it was perfect. Liv had been enthusiastic too, but you could just feel her at the edge of your consciousness completely out of it, scrolling aimlessly through youtube DYI videoes she'd seen a dozen times before. That was Liv's Officially Done behaviour.

"Yeah! Let's go!" she responded, and the two of you made your way there. The panel was genuinely good: experts, not just fans, talking about the processes, showing all the steps, taking questions. There was something weird about watching it from the front, about the present-ness of it. The way you couldn't just scroll through or speed it up the way you would a video. Sitting among all these people, the lights humming above your head, people whispering or checking their phones. Absently, you started fidgeting, tapping your fingers against your thigh just to have a sensation to ground yourself.

"You okay?" May whispered, and you nodded quietly, and she didn't ask again.

About forty-five minutes in, Liv's voice echoed through the earbud she was always wearing, which surprised you because you genuinely hadn't noticed it was in. This was the part where audience members asked questions, by which you meant told overly long stories about themselves, so you felt okay responding in a whisper.

"Everything cool?" she asked.


"So far." you whispered. "How are you doing?"

"Uuuh... Well, I got bored." she started, and you braced yourself. "And started, you know, poking around to see what's going on in the city, and turns out the Life Foundation has a branch office here."

"Go on." you said. The Life Foundation was one of those things that didn't seem like a huge threat, but which pissed Liv off immensely. They claimed to be an organization advocating for futureproofing and climate activism, but in reality they were basically a real estate service for New Zealand, northern Canada, and, if they got their way, Mars, where the rich could retreat while the world went to shit. Their billionaire backers paid them to build self-contained, self-sufficient company towns that could be run with a minimum of serfs and a maximum of comfort when everything went to shit, calling them 'ecological model villages'. You were also like 99% sure they managed a bunch of tax shelters. They were, in a world, disgusting.

"Well, you know how we can't get into their databases to expose all their awful because they're paranoid weirdos?" Liv began. They, wisely, did not have any of their secret stuff anywhere near a router. "Well, branch office here looks a lot less defended than the one in New York."


"... you aren't thinking of-" you started. May looked curiously over at you, talking to nobody.

"Nono! Not now, just saying, we could come back here. It's just something that came up." she said. She sighed, the sound oddly modulated. "Sorry. With all the everything, I think I just wanted to feel like I was getting something done."


"What's happening?" May asked, and you held up a finger to indicate silence, took out Liv's phone, and texted her enough information to understand.

"... you're going to sneak in and expose their evildoing?" she asked, her face lighting up.

"No, this is a long-term-" you started, but your momentum ran out you saw the look on her face.

"How can I help?" she asked.

"Give her an earbud." Liv said, and you fished the other out of your pocket and handed it to her. After a moment's curiosity, she put it in here ear. "Hi May! First, if you're going to respond, please text it? We're in a crowded hall, Athena and I have a lot of experience with the deniable one-sided conversation thing. So, this isn't something we're planning for this weekend. This weekend is about-"

May took out her phone and started texting furiously, and Liv fell silent while she did. There was a boop, and you looked down at Liv's phone.


iChat
from May My Girlfriend!!!!, June 29th 2030
Liv, if we're going to be girlfriends, and you're a superhero, then I'm dating a superhero.
14:51:48 29/06/30

It's not fair if you just sneak off and do this stuff and don't tell me. This is a big part of your life, and I want to support you, okay?
14:52:14 29/06/30

Please don't cut me out again.
14:52:25 29/06/30

If you're doing this tonight, I want to help. What do you need?
14:52:39 29/06/30

---

... well, okay. This isn't what you were expecting, but... of course she wants to be part of a part of your life you hid from her for so long. Of course she wants to help. She's May. She helps people. And she wants to get to know who you are, remember?
But she's also... she's also a normal human 18 year old without a lot of superheroing skills. And more than her knowing, her being involved, being updated, helping out, it turns an already questionable security leak into a potential disaster. One which could hurt her very badly.
[ ] We aren't doing this tonight, we were planning on coming back. But... it'd be nice to have you help us plan it. And... I'd love to get some help with the costume sometimes?​
[ ] We're not doing this tonight, and Athena and I have got this under control. Being Arachne is dangerous, it's really dangerous, and I don't want you getting hurt, okay?​
No write-ins.
 
[X] We aren't doing this tonight, we were planning on coming back. But... it'd be nice to have you help us plan it. And... I'd love to get some help with the costume sometimes?

My brain: GURLFRAND GOOD
 
[X] We aren't doing this tonight, we were planning on coming back. But... it'd be nice to have you help us plan it. And... I'd love to get some help with the costume sometimes?

Cutting her out is a bad idea. If she wants to help, she's not going to take no for an answer.

Plus we get to collaborate on the costume! Arachne is going to get super stylish.

It'll be stressful and we'll worry, but I think it'll be less stressful and we'll worry less because we'll be able to stay in contact with May and actually talk to her about things. If she needs to run, we can just tell her to run or introduce her to Clint and Natasha instead of trying to manipulate her or leave her asking questions that might get her in trouble.
 
[X] We aren't doing this tonight, we were planning on coming back. But... it'd be nice to have you help us plan it. And... I'd love to get some help with the costume sometimes?
 
[x] We aren't doing this tonight, we were planning on coming back. But... it'd be nice to have you help us plan it. And... I'd love to get some help with the costume sometimes?

Because having May as mission control means Athena can take a more active and physical role in shit.
 
[X] We aren't doing this tonight, we were planning on coming back. But... it'd be nice to have you help us plan it. And... I'd love to get some help with the costume sometimes?
 
[X] We aren't doing this tonight, we were planning on coming back. But... it'd be nice to have you help us plan it. And... I'd love to get some help with the costume sometimes?

She's a security risk either way. Involving her and actually teaching her the skills needed to stay secret would go way longer than trying to disengage her from this part of Liv's life.

On a related note, for your general education, many of the more successful Soviet spies were married couples. Two people going on a date somewhere or living together cause less questions than one weirdo poking their head around secret stuff or renting a condo and suddenly moving in by their lonesome.
 
[x] We aren't doing this tonight, we were planning on coming back. But... it'd be nice to have you help us plan it. And... I'd love to get some help with the costume sometimes?
 
[X] We aren't doing this tonight, we were planning on coming back. But... it'd be nice to have you help us plan it. And... I'd love to get some help with the costume sometimes?

Seems like the obvious choice to me. We'll have to teach her OpSec, but that's better than her trying to learn it on her own.
 
[X] We aren't doing this tonight, we were planning on coming back. But... it'd be nice to have you help us plan it. And... I'd love to get some help with the costume sometimes?
 
Back
Top