Tangled Fate [Ranma 1/2 / Exalted]

[Quickshot0]

That is not exactly a result of tech progression. The American Civil War was using relatively low tech equipment. Europe was most of a weapon generation ahead of the US when it came to guns, most likely because Europe's armies were supplied from the government, while the US's military was expected to be largely raised from conscript infantry with their own guns.

Click to shrink...

I don't think the USA was all to excessively behind, at the time developments were coming pretty quick and fast. Still Prussia clearly was ahead of them by some years at least with the Dreyse needle gun, an early bolt action rifle design that they had 270.000 of by 1866.

An interesting mention in the article there was how the development of cast steel barrel production techniques is what made mass production of this weapon possible. I'm not entirely sure if that's because steel is indeed essential to make these guns work... or perhaps more likely that the life time of the weapon with to poor quality materials like iron would reduce its usage limit to something near useless.

Still this does make one wonder if many of the more interesting gun technologies of the modern day are basically limited by the availability of at least reasonable quality steel. That would certainly put some demands on being able to produce such steel in large amounts if one wanted such weapons on mass then.

 

[bejammin2000]

The main thing stopping them is fouling. In the whole using of black powder.
Like, you can use it in a modern weapon, but it'll make it near inoperable after a few dozen shots. Same with bolt actions.

Buuuuuuut! Lever action rifles were designed to work with black powder originally.

It's why I suggested them.

On the other hand, they can just go the way the Chinese did during the 20th Century Warlord period.

Dangerous junk that was to be brandished often, fired never.

 

[Vanigo]

I'll admit I've probably made a few assumptions that are wrong. Which is why I talk about these kinds of things. Science is not a strong point of mine, even as I try and write stories that rely heavily on it at times. *Sheepish Kitsune* Furthermore when I was studying the different types of rifles; break-action bolt-action, etc.; I seem to have taken the popularization of bolt-action and the introduction of smokeless powders as being a cause and effect rather just similar timing. More importantly, I seem to have missed that fact that bolt-actions were developed far soon than I first thought. The details that you miss when you come at a topic from one angle and not another.


I was thinking of what would be considered an acceptable first generation rifle that would also be relatively easy to manufacture. Every additional part that is required to be manufactured is another step they have to account for. A break-action/breech-loaded rifle has few points of failure compared to a lever-action or a bolt-action. It's capable of significantly higher rates of fire than a muzzle-loader and it's fairly accurate, unlike a musket. I debated over lever or break-action for quite a while before deciding that lever action was just a bit more complex than I could expect them to be able to accurately machine in the timespan that I'm leaving between the first "book" and the second.

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure that a useful break action is actually easier to machine, actually. One of the good things about brass casings is that when you fire them they'll expand slightly to fit the chamber, which makes the breech largely self-sealing. That's a big problem for a break-action caseless gun; the break will need to be machined to very tight tolerances to keep the gas from escaping, and it'll need to keep sealing despite inevitable wear and tear as it fires. The downside is of course more moving parts, but you don't need to include a repeater mechanism, if that's the holdup. Single-shot also makes for a significantly faster design process, which if we're talking about going into production in months is a huge plus. Probably a bigger issue is the need to manufacture dozens-to-hundreds of brass casings for every rifle.

 

[Quickshot0]

The main thing stopping them is fouling. In the whole using of black powder.
Like, you can use it in a modern weapon, but it'll make it near inoperable after a few dozen shots. Same with bolt actions.

Buuuuuuut! Lever action rifles were designed to work with black powder originally.

It's why I suggested them.

Click to shrink...

Bolt Actions were originally designed to work with black powder as well, the Dreyse for instance used Black Powder rounds, as did various later bolt action guns for the next two decades. Some of which adopted as the new standard gun of European armies.

It would be pretty odd for the Europeans who always ended up with war with each other to choose a solution that didn't work. Not to mention one of the first to adopt one, the Prussians, afterwards went on to use it to beat the Austrian and French Empires. Clearly they could deal with fouling, via various measures, including no doubt cleaning it between combat actions.


Secondly the Lever Action is a gun that was pretty much avoided by everyone for army use, pretty much the only nation I know of that got it in some real numbers was Russia. And they did it for WW1 where they were literally buying every weapon they could find that wasn't total garbage.

So far I know it wasn't really disliked by the Russians, but it is a relatively complicated gun which I believe makes it a bit more on the expensive side to operate.


As such I suspect that the Lever gun is more of a shooters gun, a gun that people who like shooting guns like to use. Rather then an army gun, a weapon that isn't all to expensive to buy, isn't all that difficult to maintain if something breaks and thus doesn't strain logistics to much. Because in the end logistics dominate a lot issues for an army.


Edit, I looked it up on Wikipedia for a bit as well. Seems like Expense and possibly less good in prone positions didn't help it getting widely adopted.

 

[Grounders10]

As such I suspect that the Lever gun is more of a shooters gun, a gun that people who like shooting guns like to use. Rather then an army gun, a weapon that isn't all to expensive to buy, isn't all that difficult to maintain if something breaks and thus doesn't strain logistics to much. Because in the end logistics dominate a lot issues for an army.

Click to shrink...

Which was my general thought from what I know of mechanics, my research on guns, and just common sense. More parts means more complexity, which means increased likelihood of failure and increased maintenance to prevent it. My line of thought on this manner is Break-action, skip the lever-action and the tubular magazine and move straight to Bolt-actions with stripper-clips or external box magazines. By which point expect the rest of creation to be adopting break-action rifles themselves.

 

[Quickshot0]

Looking in to it a bit, break open designs are possibly not suited for rifles, apparently they have trouble handling full power cartridges. Now admittedly black powder shot can be a bit lower pressure/power in comparison to modern full power rifle cartridges, so that would help. But considering no military ever adopted it for rifles, compared to some what more complicated designs seems to indicate that making such designs seal well and securely might have been an issue.

Of course for close range weapons this isn't as much an issue, but that is kind of giving away some of the range advantages a gun can give. Before machine guns, infantry rifles fired en-mass could range out and hit people in formation reliably enough to bother up to something like 1-2 kilometers out. (Depending on guns effective range of course)

 

[Dacl73]

Looking in to it a bit, break open designs are possibly not suited for rifles, apparently they have trouble handling full power cartridges

Click to shrink...

Quite likely. However, we were already given an example of a breechloading Rifle that way well be something that the Grayfalls Military will adopt.

I recommend Forgotten Weapons channel on YouTube (and Forgotten Weapons site) for things like very early breach-loading metal "cartridge" guns, or repeating Lorenzoni flintlocks (pre-cartridge), or repeating air-rifles (e.g. Girardoni):

• Spoiler: Beautiful 1625 Breechloading Wheellock
• Spoiler: London-Made Lorenzonis Repeating Flintlocks

Click to shrink...

Not as Fancy of course, but something with a system along those lines. Maybe with Wax over the cartiages' ends so they can be sealed a bit better.

 

[Vanigo]

Quite likely. However, we were already given an example of a breechloading Rifle that way well be something that the Grayfalls Military will adopt.



Not as Fancy of course, but something with a system along those lines. Maybe with Wax over the cartiages' ends so they can be sealed a bit better.

Click to shrink...

The second one has terrifying reliability issues, in that if a little gunpowder gets into the wrong seam it will explode in your hands. It's also quite elaborate, and requires extremely precise manufacture to work at all. The first looks a lot more reasonable, but if you're going to make cartridges anyway (and have percussion caps) you might as well make it a bolt-action or falling-block action, which are simpler to use and probably more reliable.

 

[Grounders10]

But considering no military ever adopted it for rifles, compared to some what more complicated designs seems to indicate that making such designs seal well and securely might have been an issue.

Click to shrink...

The Sharps Rifle was breechloading and was transitioned to metallic cartridges. Finding an example of a breechloading rifle in Europe or elsewhere is still ongoing, however. It should be noted that the sharp rifle was an example of a "Falling Block" action, a subtype of breech-loading rifles. It's generally what I've been thinking of.

 

[Baran3]

I just love those debates, the amount of information is staggering.

Hum… One point that we have, perhaps, already talked about… (If so, I apologizes)

Firewand.

They are made to use and thus resist to the Firedust, an incendiary powder.

The heat of the combustion of blackpowder and gunpowder could deform the barrel of early bronze and steel weapons.

A busted breech was a possible and serious risk of early weapons.

My reasoning is such. The method used in Creation for making firewands should be up to produce barrels able to resist to gunpowder combustion.

And even if this isn't the case, the tools they are using could easily be upgraded for producing resistant steel gunbarrels.

 

[Pirate34]

Revolvers and shotguns with a small mix of breach loaded rifles for marksman use seems to be the reachable conclusion from all of the debate. Easily distributes a mix of paper and brass cartridges, brass rounds to the officers and specialists, paper cartridge shot/slugs to the line infantry.

Also gives you the practice of awarding distinction in battle with a really nice pistol.

Looking in to it a bit, break open designs are possibly not suited for rifles, apparently they have trouble handling full power cartridges.

Click to shrink...

An early gunpowder industry, even one with future knowledge of gunpowder and rifling would probably not use full power cartridges. Especially when you have the option of pulling out magic bullets for difficult enemies.

 

[Quickshot0]

The Sharps Rifle was breechloading and was transitioned to metallic cartridges. Finding an example of a breechloading rifle in Europe or elsewhere is still ongoing, however. It should be noted that the sharp rifle was an example of a "Falling Block" action, a subtype of breech-loading rifles. It's generally what I've been thinking of.

Click to shrink...

I believe the British Martin Henry is some what similar to such designs. Though it's worth noting that falling block like designs don't really show up until the same period as others are already poking around at bolt-action designs. So it is my suspicion that both are gated behind roughly similar precision levels and steel requirements.

In a recent C&Arsenal episode it was mentioned the Portugese arsenal in the 1870s was apparently incapable of producing a falling block design itself though, due to it requiring to fine a fitting for their abilities, and had to get OWG* in Austria to make it for them instead... also worth noting they ultimately cancelled mid-production and swapped to a magazine fed bolt action design instead. (Admittedly for those extra features like the magazine a 25% higher price was charged)

I'm unsure how much the some what improved simplicity is worth as such though.



* "Österreichische Waffenfabriksgesellschaft"

 

[bejammin2000]

Lever actions weren't typically adopted because of two things. The speed in which the magazine could be emptied was... in opposition of current doctrine by most nations. And it couldn't be used prone.

However, the Ottomans made good use of the Lever Action in the First Balkan War. Once an enemy came close enough to the fortifications, they put down there Mausers and picked up Winchesters.

Also, I wouldn't exactly call a Dreyse or Chassepot a bolt action, they were needle guns that... well, they used a rotating bolt.

Also the thing with black powder is that pressures are much different. It's why you can't use smokeless in black powder guns.

Though, if they can fabricate rifling and minieballs, muzzle loaders might be the way to go.

 

[Quickshot0]

I think you confused the war with the Winchesters, that was I believe actually the Russio-Turkish war of 1877-1878. With the specific battle of importance being the Siege of Plevna. This definitely did show the use of repeating fire weapons like lever actions can provide. But subsequently all the other nations of the world went off and designed non-lever actions to achieve repeating fire with.

And while you're right that their doctrines were more single shot oriented, potentially in part due to logistical concerns that existed in the past. They didn't actually ignore the lever actions for that particular reason. After all, their new designs had the same issue, something they addressed though usually with things like a magazine cut-off and the ability to load it as a single shot for normal operations. Thus leaving the magazine for the case you needed actual rapid fire.

Instead Lever Actions at the time handled high pressure rounds less well, in part due to the original lever action I believe not being able to easily handle larger rounds so well. This was obviously later addressed, though this did cause the action to open up to far greater degree to allow for the new movement. Another potential issue is in the case of jams, where if a lever action jams during high speed firing, that you could more easily injur your hand compared to for instance a bolt action. (Slamming the back of your fingers, compared to your palm) As well as that if it jammed in such a case, you might have to move your weapon to be able to exert more force on the mechanism, unlike say a bolt action. And lastly Lever actions so far as I can immediately recall and find were effectively more expensive to produce then Bolt actions.


As such there isn't anything particularly wrong with the Lever Action, it certainly can do the job. But can it really do it at quite the same price point and quite the same usability/reliability level as a bolt action in the ways an army wants it?

And all the answer I have to that is really, that while countries occasionally showed some interest in the concept, that when it was time to put down the big money for it they ultimately always chose something else for the one or other reason.



PS, some black powder guns were converted to smokeless due to being originally a bit overengineered. So it is possible to upgrade if the original design allowed for it.

 

[bejammin2000]

Still an issue with fouling. Bolt action needle guns used paper cartridges and were single shot.

And the needle was fragile as hell.

The Mannlicher design was originally used with compressed black powder, but it's also a straight pull bolt, needing a bit more engineering.

There's also the issue of bore dynamics. Old black powder weapons were in the 11mm range.

 

[Dacl73]

We are also forgetting magical materials and how they will affect the chemistry and firearms development. For example, Fire Dust could be used as a replacement for some elements of guncotton or smokeless powder.

 

[Quickshot0]

Technically many of these issues were greatly resolved in forinstance the Kropatschek Rifle, a design which had been in circulation for quite some time before finally being adopted by some one at that, so it's actually an older design then it looks.(And thus probably less demanding industrially) It doesn't use a needle gun design, being more like your regular later bolt action guns. And the Portuguese adopted it in a more narrow bore of 8 mm, while it still being a black powder weapon, the cartridge basically very much like the Lebel. And yet despite being a black powder weapon it had an action strong enough to handle smokeless rounds. Technically it would have handled them even better if it had symmetric locking lugs, but people tended to cheap out on that back in the day. So over the years its aim wandered out a bit to the side and they had to keep moving the sights for it.

It's most major flaw would be that it's a tube loader I think, so that's a negative, but it's not like one couldn't have designed a different magazine system for it. Just no point as people moved on to newer even better systems.


In any case, the final black powder bolt action rifle designs were thus a bit more advanced then some might have realized. It's just hard to notice them as like in the case of the Kropatscheck, the next year* smokeless rounds came out and it was suddenly a foot note in history no one particularly cared about any more.



* Same year, but no one but the French knew yet until the next year. So reactions didn't occur until 1887, unfortunate for the Portuguese as such who adopted this gun in 1886 using the newest in state of the art rifle technology of the time. A rather long comment on YouTube I saw recently, summarized much of what happened in these few years of enormous change, so I could quote that if people really want to see how quickly things were changing at the time.

 

[Gwyll]

One thing I have not really seen discussed: What knowledge is available. I assume that soldiers will be able to clean and assemble their guns, but will probably not know anything about how to manufacture such pieces. And they most likely do not know much about earlier guns. So given those limitations and that you will have to be able to explain to medieval smiths the procedure, will limit the first run to something simple.

Depending on how much time they devote to it, it might take years to be at a position to mass-produce reliable firearms. Muskets are possible far earlier, but those have their own issues.

As for the army, I would imagine something similar to the Tercio formations, with musketeers mixed with pikemen or other close combat troops. They might be better off with crossbows while they work out the gun issues.

 

[Raising Kittens]

One thing I have not really seen discussed: What knowledge is available. I assume that soldiers will be able to clean and assemble their guns, but will probably not know anything about how to manufacture such pieces. And they most likely do not know much about earlier guns. So given those limitations and that you will have to be able to explain to medieval smiths the procedure, will limit the first run to something simple.

Depending on how much time they devote to it, it might take years to be at a position to mass-produce reliable firearms. Muskets are possible far earlier, but those have their own issues.

As for the army, I would imagine something similar to the Tercio formations, with musketeers mixed with pikemen or other close combat troops. They might be better off with crossbows while they work out the gun issues.

Click to shrink...

Allow me to point you to Emily Winegate's character sheet. She's got all the knowledge necessary to kick-start production, and she's already working on it, though she does have to start with making a Lathe (as of Chapter Nine). Sixth months to decent mass production of rifled breech-loaders is highly likely, especially since this is a priority so she'll be receiving help sooner rather than later.

 

[Quickshot0]

Allow me to point you to Emily Winegate's character sheet. She's got all the knowledge necessary to kick-start production, and she's already working on it, though she does have to start with making a Lathe (as of Chapter Nine). Sixth months to decent mass production of rifled breech-loaders is highly likely, especially since this is a priority so she'll be receiving help sooner rather than later.

Click to shrink...

Exalted can make things happen that quickly? In the real world obviously you'd never get there that quickly.

 

[Gwyll]

Allow me to point you to Emily Winegate's character sheet. She's got all the knowledge necessary to kick-start production, and she's already working on it, though she does have to start with making a Lathe (as of Chapter Nine). Sixth months to decent mass production of rifled breech-loaders is highly likely, especially since this is a priority so she'll be receiving help sooner rather than later.

Click to shrink...

I was mostly skipping/ignoring character sheets, since in my opinion they detract from a story. (If you want to show abilities and such, bring them up in the actual story). And while she might have the theoretical knowledge, a lot of it would depend on machines and precision which do not exist.

Edit: Unless she has been crafting guns from basic metal ingots for a while, she would have issues I would imagine.

 

[Raising Kittens]

The relevant data is actually available in Chapter Nine. In order:

"A tool used to precision machining." The woman said, "It's basically a fixed drill used for cutting metal. Like when you want to make a screw, or cut a plate of metal to perfectly fit a hole." She picked up a hammer. "I could use this to hammer a plate to fit, but if I did the edges wouldn't fit exactly. If I used it for making a steam engine, for example, the pressure could escape easily. Where as if I had used a lathe I could cut it to exactly the size I need without worrying about the uneven patterns a hammer can make."

Click to shrink...

"We're a long way from home. At the least the JSDF is going to need new barrels for those guns, and probably new bullets as well come to think of it. When I found the smithy I figured I may as well get a jump on the problem. Better than just sitting around all day brooding." The woman said. She prodded the metal bar with the tongs. "Temperature is falling." She muttered before moving over to a set of bellows attached to the furnace.

Click to shrink...

Emily shucked the heavy leather gloves she was wearing and cracked her knuckles before stretching. "Well it's part of a support. Some of the parts are going to need to be made from better metal than I've been able to find so far. This thing is going to be part of what's going to be a small bessemer converter." At Kiku's blank look she added, "It's used to turn iron into steel quickly."

Click to shrink...

"Fourth year at MIT actually." Emily said, smirking at the surprised look the two had. "Bachelor of Sciences with a Major in Polymer Sciences."

Click to shrink...

So not only does she know what she's doing, and not only does she already have a handle on what needs to be done... she's now Exalted. So yes. Eminently possible, especially since she won't be doing it alone. Just as soon as the immediate crises is over with, she won't be doing it alone. A week or so for her to get proper help, I think.

 

[bejammin2000]

This is one of those weird moments where my knowledge of guns is useful!

Maybe some of the displaced civilians are American drag racing enthusiasts and then maybe my other area of expertise will cone in handy.

 

[Grounders10]

Exalted can make things happen that quickly? In the real world obviously you'd never get there that quickly.

Click to shrink...

Exaltation may not let you just skip the requirements for ingredients, but it does help speed the process beyond what a mortal could ever manage.

 

[Quickshot0]

Exaltation may not let you just skip the requirements for ingredients, but it does help speed the process beyond what a mortal could ever manage.

Click to shrink...

Well many of the issues are of course getting your tools developed correctly and your lines setup to run well with out mistake. So that could certainly save you quite some time.

But I guess you'll still need your mining and transport network to be running well for large scale production.