Strange Aeons: A 40k Xeno Governor Quest

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I'm still kind of amazed that we haven't talked to our own giant robots yet, especially now that we can practically gurantee the best result
Calculation hearts and equivalents don't work on diplomacy. They don't even assist Atraxas in performing diplomacy. So I'm not sure we can guarantee the best results.
 
Calculation hearts and equivalents don't work on diplomacy. They don't even assist Atraxas in performing diplomacy. So I'm not sure we can guarantee the best results.

I meant in the context of, iirc, spending multiple actions on an, well, action leads to more rolls and a higher bonus. IIRC the DCs honestly aren't that bad, and if we can afford to dedicate 2 actions to it then it would be...unlikely, to get a bad result.
 
I meant in the context of, iirc, spending multiple actions on an, well, action leads to more rolls and a higher bonus. IIRC the DCs honestly aren't that bad, and if we can afford to dedicate 2 actions to it then it would be...unlikely, to get a bad result.
You know, this is the one place where Information will be invaluable. Because our worst-case Atraxas result will go from 45 (stat) + 10 (worst possible roll) = 55 to 90 (stat x2) + 10 (worst possible roll) = 100. 55->100 is a good upgrade!
 
Dealing with the Chaos Gods, mini-Omake
(too short for bonuses and doesn't fit the timeline, but I liked the concept and wanted to post it)

"So you're saying there are four giant superpredators that could eat our whole Homeworld easily."

"Yep."

"And each of them has like a dozen super-minions that could detonate our sun without too terribly much effort."

"Yep."

"Well this takes me back to our race's early years. OK! Time to start work! Double down on Homeworld secrecy - we would normally avoid putting all our eggs in one basket, but the basket is basically impossible to locate via Physics or the Warp… Regardless: Adapt. Refine. Innovate. Collaborate. Overcome. In a few tens of millennia, you'll see: We'll kill these things through superior intellect and tactics, just as we have our own native predators."

"Wat?"
 
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In a few tens of millennia, you'll see:

Hmmm.

Where abouts were the- whatever our species is called during 30k? In terms of development?

That might be an interesting timeline divergence-

Maybe we were discovered by one of the Missing Primarchs, and their thing was Alien Sympathies essentially?

But none of the Primarchs were actually read in on the Four, so we wouldn't have learned that way...hmm.
 
Hmmm.

Where abouts were the- whatever our species is called during 30k? In terms of development?

That might be an interesting timeline divergence-

Maybe we were discovered by one of the Missing Primarchs, and their thing was Alien Sympathies essentially?

But none of the Primarchs were actually read in on the Four, so we wouldn't have learned that way...hmm.
Funnily enough, Leon does have an incomplete sidestory on Discord that can be summed up as "Perturabo lands on the Exatari Homeworld instead, and gets raised there by order of The Witness."

The main plot-points that I recall:
  1. He figures out the Quintessence Harvester, a distant successor of Atraxas' still-theoretical Veil Harvester.
  2. Emps meets him, and tries the "look at me I'm an Apex Psyker" shtick.
  3. Eaxtas (the renamed Primarch) ignores it (Warp Shred), insults Emps' sword, realizes that was rude, and forges Emps a better one instead.
  4. Eaxtas meets his legion and is like "Well, you're doing great for the instruction and resources you've been given, but now you're being led by a omnidisciplinarian genius - who is nowhere near as busy as Emps - and have access to infinite resources, so we're making a few changes."
 
Funnily enough, Leon does have an incomplete sidestory on Discord that can be summed up as "Perturabo lands on the Exatari Homeworld instead, and gets raised there by order of The Witness."

The main plot-points that I recall:
  1. He figures out the Quintessence Harvester, a distant successor of Atraxas' still-theoretical Veil Harvester.
  2. Emps meets him, and tries the "look at me I'm an Apex Psyker" shtick.
  3. Eaxtas (the renamed Primarch) ignores it (Warp Shred), insults Emps' sword, realizes that was rude, and forges Emps a better one instead.
  4. Eaxtas meets his legion and is like "Well, you're doing great for the instruction and resources you've been given, but now you're being led by a omnidisciplinarian genius - who is nowhere near as busy as Emps - and have access to infinite resources, so we're making a few changes."

Honestly, this is probably one of the best routes for him.

I don't remember exactly how Perty ended up with the foundations of his insecurity issues before Emps showed up to further induce mental illness, but growing up in an environment where there's probably always someone better than him in something, because they dedicated himself to it, even if at the end that someone is quite possibly only the Witness themself, he's probably in a much better position mentally to handle the idea of his brothers having their own areas of expertise that potentially triumph his own knowledge.

But he's also possibly even more arrogant, because he grew up in an environment that fully supported his capacity to learn, to the point of probably fully knowing the species' ClarkTech base, while having Primarch "Even Further Beyond" memes, while having a Primarch's Narrative Weight to apply to the Weight tech tree.

So honestly, he probably is the Hype by that point.

I imagine he joins the Crusade on the basis that he doesn't want his home planet destroyed as Aliens To Be Destroyed, and, well. I'm sure a Primarch will be able to send along technical specifications, becoming the originator of the whole "Consented To Banishment To Provide Technological Spy Data" thing. :V

I'm now trying to imagine Eaxtas's tactics and strategies for "enforcing compliance", and honestly it feels like a combination of Diplomacy, Utopian Uplift, Super Science Shenanigans, and Looney Tunes.
 
We have two possible methods of growth here: Research, and economy/stuff/production-and-extraction/etc which I shall call Growth for simplicity (and because that's the term TreeQuest uses).

I see three questions, when deciding what to prioritize:
  1. Which can grow faster and further
    • Currently, Research is probably actually the leader - but it's expected to cap relatively soon
  2. Which can more effectively buff other things (particularly the other)
    • Research. Admittedly, Growth can buy DAoT relics, give you tons of high-skill notables, etc. etc. But Research is faster.
    • Streamline the Code of Law is of debatable categorization, but it definitely it gives great buffs to everything (+6 Actions/turn).
  3. What's the distribution of "set this up now and it'll give great rewards if you leave it for a while" stuff?
    • Growth has the lead, with Juvenat-for-all taking 20 turns to finish but granting +1 Health and +1 Education per turn for that duration. Plus a few other things - particularly all the stuff that gets awesome as you build the Megaproject - oh, and the Megaproject itself. But Research has a few options, too - particularly Homeworld research...
All things considered, insofar as the Invasion allows us to, we should prioritize the low-hanging Research fruit - along with the lowest-hanging Growth bits, and anything we can grab that grows over time - as long as we can get good results.

Put another way: We have a ton of extremely effective, relatively cheap picks. Keep picking them until we run out.
 
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Araahal is not a true warp goddess, for the record she is still too warpy
and not enough material
but she works under Veil rules

only a Veil Soul can become a True Veil God

you need a race tied tightly to the material and able to ignore any warp laws to have a Veil race
normal biology is too warp attuned, only a Metal based biology could support a Veil existance
in part due to the Necrons and their influence
but also in part due to simple durability and resistance to mutation
then you need Warp Shred or something similar to just ignore Warp Law
and then you need to have souls capable of supporting both psykers and blanks
with thoe 3 aspects combined a Veil soul can arise
and thus a Veil God
can be born

worship is more or less a net 0 for veil beings
they have the patronage system
but warp converts can get permenant power growth via worship
its one of the slight benefits that they have from not being True Veil beings
but their power is always less absolute compared to a True Veil God
Araahal for example would need to have a power base roughly 100x the Witness' to contest it on a losing footing
1000x to have a good chance to Stalemate it
10kx to actually beat it in the Veil
True Veil Gods are the Rulers of the Veil
Araahal and others like her are more spirits that have a five room house in the Veil
the Witness upon ascension will rule a metaphorical galaxy in the Veil
its power might be less than hers but its scope is insane
in the Veil power and influence between beings is almost entirely independent
the Witness upon Ascension will have the same level of impact upon the Veil as Chaos Gods do upon the warp
its power wont be any where close to that in truth, but the Veil will bend and bow to its will
 
So, I've been thinking about our five Wishes for figuring out the Flux Net and I've come up with a rough priority list:
  1. Get Nemoria in the best possible position to talk down Angron.
  2. Build up Shogi's defenses
  3. Personal Gear for Atraxas
  4. Save a wish or two for the Great Awakening when their buying power will skyrocket
So, with that in mind, here's my proposal:
  1. Absolute Domain Forged Primordial Array (needed to keep Nameria alive and make even a slight crack in Angron's rage so she can try to convince him Khorne is just another slaver)
  2. 3E Simulation Heart (will help us blitz through all aspects of system hardening other than diplomatic)
  3. Absolute Veil Forged Meta Shield/Veil Discovery Sensorium (one gives us carte Blanche to go daemon hunting during the incursion, the other helps with researching and building meta tech for more infrastructure)
  4. Maaaaaaybe a Pinnacle Inversion Array (lets us consistently Invert Daemons. Combined with a meta shield concentrated warp shred to weaken them, we might even be able to turn friendly Djinn before the incursion ends) might be better to save it or grab both of the above options though.
  5. Save it.
We've also got the one Cadian Wish for taking out the Chaos Marines for which I only have one suggestion.
  1. Get us an Occult Advisor (guaranteed hero unit to help with our warptech and anti-daemon measures, crit and critfail get us Cawl and Fabulous Bob In A Fake Mustache respectively)
Any thoughts or alternate suggestions? Keep in mind that unless one of us can write a really good omake the uber shield will probably end up shattered in the nemesis fight.
 
What do you mean by that exactly? I think we've been told that the big fight will have +1 per omake to one(?) of Atraxas' rolls. Am I missing something, or are you just stating "unless we get a metric ton of bonuses" or "unless we put a metric ton of bonuses into the original shield itself"?
 
What do you mean by that exactly? I think we've been told that the big fight will have +1 per omake to one(?) of Atraxas' rolls. Am I missing something, or are you just stating "unless we get a metric ton of bonuses" or "unless we put a metric ton of bonuses into the original shield itself"?
We need an in universe plausible reason for Atraxas to swap out his objectively better shield for a standard issue one at some point during the incursion, preferably after using it to be helpful but definitely before the NEX Sprite shows up.
 
We need an in universe plausible reason for Atraxas to swap out his objectively better shield for a standard issue one at some point during the incursion, preferably after using it to be helpful but definitely before the NEX Sprite shows up.
I am assuming that the emperor, ceg, and all other friendly seers will be unable to see this thing.

Didn't we discuss the possibility of Atraxas noticing it across the warp, if he had the shield equipped, or something like that?
 
I am assuming that the emperor, ceg, and all other friendly seers will be unable to see this thing.

Didn't we discuss the possibility of Atraxas noticing it across the warp, if he had the shield equipped, or something like that?
Yeah, the possibility that the Absolute control of his Warp Shred plus maybe Veil Fuckery allowing us to sense the narrative connection to our nemesis and get a kind of vision type thing.
 
The foundational Megaproject items that we want to get done ASAP - probably post-invasion, unless they wind up contributing to our defense in some manner, but still - are, in my opinion:
  1. Planets. Cheap (Resources, Suspicion) and gives us tons of Resources.
  2. Streamline the code of law. Requires a TON of Suspicion management, BUT gives us more Actions (so we can shed Sus faster!) and unlocks Ministry of Construction and improves our Suspicion cap.
  3. Foundational Medical Care. Cheap (Resources, Suspicion) and gives us two different types of Resources-per-turn multipliers, plus helps out the population.
  4. Juve Nat Facility (Universal). Hideously expensive (Resources, Suspicion) but has a powerful effect that just keeps stacking for 20 turns, so we want this as soon as we can afford it (and after Streamline the code of law).
Wallis's suggested Shadow Government is also worthy of consideration...
 
Wallis's suggested Shadow Government is also worthy of consideration...

Honestly, it should probably be half Shadow Government, half "Cultural Revolution Waiting In The Wings To Pull The Trigger When The Galaxy Splits In Half."

(And also maybe half "Basically Our Own Rogue Trader Fleet To Scour The Galaxy For Neat Stuff/Poke Other Imperial Systems" but that would be at least 500 years from now by my estimate.)

We need to pull off a lot of supplemental Megaprojects to ensure the Dyson Solar System Sphere Thing is the best it can be, and having a source of Actions that we can use to shape things without being directly linked to the shaping would likely be helpful.

Of course, the Spy Network Megaproject is practically designed to discover exactly the sort of thing the Shadow Government Megaproject would end up being, so maybe we can get our Intrigue Advisor on side before getting super deep into it.
 
Q: Veil Physics 1 grants +10% to all Exatari Veil stuff, including Libraries. Does this mean that Information 1 will grant Atraxas +110% to all Stat modifiers?
A: you know it will yes
(As a note: that means that Turn 10 Atraxas worst-case Diplomacy will be 45 stat + 45 Info + 4.5 VeilBonus + 10 LowestPossibleRoll = 104. If the Exatari get Veil Physics 2, which seems likely, then it will instead be 110. That's enough to guarantee immediate success on 3 Astartes chapters, and getting close to a 4th.)

Q: Also, while I doubt this would be an optimal use of Actions: Would we be allowed to "research Information first, then use its bonus for 3x explicitly-later-in-turn Diplomacy Actions"?
A: you could write that in yes
(This would let us guarantee those three Astartes chapter interactions, for -60 Suspicion total, on Turn 9 if desired. We could possibly take Streamline the Code of Law at that point, though I'm almost certain we won't have the Actions to do that and all our military stuff.)

Q: Look for trustworthy assistants (Intrigue) -Does this get bonuses from Calc Hearts / Simulation Arrays?
A: yes

Q: Same with Hide resources (Intrigue)?
A: yes

Q: So, as a totally random example, if we got a 3-4E pokeball capable of containing Nurgle for a minute or two, nabbed him and then shoved tossed it into the ritual grinder as a sacrifice to Isha, what would happen?
A: that would result in a similar event to the heel face turn, but you would need TL 24 I believe ruin to do that
as for a seperate tech path for daemon specialization that is doable but it would require a Wish to implement due to the Exatari disliking specialization of tech in that manner
Q: Could any significant progress be made between spending the Wish and the incursion?
A: not really
there is only a decade between TL 1 and incusion
Q: Figured. So something to think about spending one of our "save it for after more LMs wake up" Wishes on.
Would the C'Tan firewall patch help with the Curse of Blood or just the "assuming admin control" trick?
C'Tanti-virus
A: both
it would basically give you an actual wound threshold against C'tan corruption and extra wounds
from 0 threshold and 0 wounds to 10 Threshold and 2 Wounds
roughly twice as bad as human against Chaos
but infinitely better than current
Q: So how much is discovering the origin of the Curse and trading for a partial vaccination worth?
A: a fair amount, but the issue is that the patch is beyond the Exatari's ability to create and apply and has to be made custom for each Exatari
the discovery that its possible and the history is worth around 500 Favor
if you could find an universal solution that would be several Wishes
Q: Sounds like probably a job for Protection and Divinity, maybe with some Life. Since we'll be protecting our spiritual biologies from divine influence.
A: yeah
Q: Will our shedding the backdoor with hyper evolution make fixing it harder because we don't have a sample to examine or easier because we have an example of what an Exatari Soul without the backdoor looks like?
A: eaiser and if you have fixed it already better in the long run
if you have it fixed then Atraxas will equal human resiliance against Chaos
Threshold of 20 and 4 wounds
a far cry from the Threshold 100 and 8 Wounds he has vs Warp corruption
but a massive step up from even the post patch
and he would retain the Broken Scholar bonus
of Bo2 and +50
Q: So best case scenario is this Cryptek is curious enough to fix us, then we hyperevolve further resistance, then we study ourself to develop a generalized immunization.
A: yes
Q: For the purposes of an omake, the NEX Sprite would be exchanging information with us due to the nemesis link right?
Presumably via meta particles
Like, not talking to us but linked in some way in the same way other materium/immaterium pairs are
A: that is true there is a flow of information of sorts, Atraxas can tell that reality has gotten darker in recent decades for example and that Shogi is for some unknown reason exempt
he cant directly tell at the moment but if he knew more of warp stuff and spent enough time poking at memories he could feel something linked to him
although his soul has been doing a great job of sanding away at the Sprite
it hasnt had a single victory in their little tug of war yet and frankly I dont think it can recover at this point
since its lost its NEX given protection against Primordial Arrays
thanks to a critical failure on its part
Q: Lol
So it's feasible he might notice directly if he suddenly gained much finer control over his soul and Veil connection or sharpened Veil senses?
Such as would be obtained by the Absolute Veil Forged Meta Shield or Veil Discovery Forged Sensorium.
A: yes
that would make it fairly obvious
> We would probably get better use with Pinnacle Discovery or Absolute Discovery, though
Q: Pinnacle Discovery would kill us and both it and Absolute Discovery give up on the significant advantages of Veil Forging when it comes to our primary tech base, and figuring out weird metaphysical shenanigans using the one aspect of metaphysics we can actually understand.
> Ah, fair enough then.
Q: Would either of those options let us be more active in the spiritual tug of war?
A: the spiritual tug of war is hard to directly affect, its mostly affected by the passage of time or great events like the creation of the Primordial Arrays
Q: So it would let us notice that we are in a spiritual tug of war and maybe the kinds of things (ie meaningfully progressing our narrative opposition to Chaos) that would influence it, but it's not the kind of thing where he can clench his spiritual buttcheeks and start actually pulling.
A: yes
Q: Seriously though [loss of Primordial Array immunity] basically just means it's entirely fucked, right? Or does it still have more resistance than a normal warp entity, similar to Angron?
A: it is more resistant than normal daemons alot and has different rules, but yeah its not going to enjoy the things
 
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(This would let us guarantee those three Astartes chapter interactions, for -60 Suspicion total, on Turn 9 if desired. We could possibly take Streamline the Code of Law at that point, though I'm almost certain we won't have the Actions to do that and all our military stuff.)
And develop Flux Grid.
Also, I'm on mobile so I can't copy it out but you might want to add the stuff about detecting the NEX Sprite and the best case for curing the Curse of Blood.
 
Witness awakening timeline.

This assumes:
  • We get Revenant (or Death) by Turn 10.
  • Veil Physics was stated to take an average of 25 +5*current-level baseline-research-years to gain each TL until they reach TL12, so 25+30+35+40=130 baseline-research-years. Calc-Heart x3 bonus applies, so 44 years at current rates.
  • Revenant was stated to be "not unusually hard; fairly middle of the road" in difficulty. I'm assuming 70 years average, but my calcs likely remain accurate even if it's marginally more difficult (i.e. 100 years average).
Expected results:
  • Turn 9: Veil Physics TL1 done
  • Turn 10: Ruin TL1 implemented; Young LMs awaken! (tech progress x2); Information TL1 implemented (another tech progress x2 or slightly less (but Veil Physics TL1 should buff to fully x2); x4 total)
  • Turn 11: Life TL1 implemented; Elder LMs awaken! (tech progress x2 again; x8 total)
  • Turn 12: Revenant completes,Venerable LMs awaken! (4+8=12 > 7 turns of baseline progress) (another x2 tech progress; x16 total); Veil Physics TL4 completes (1+1+4+8=14 > 4.4 effective turns); Calc-Hearts x3 bonus now applies to Libraries! (x48 total)
  • Turn 13: Should get Divinity TL1 done here (base time = 70*5=350, 350/48=7.3 years < 10 years), Witness awakens! (tech progress x3) (Quintessence now cheaper) (other good stuff)
Some of my numbers are mildly optimistic, but none are wildly so. All things considered, though, the Witness will probably awaken by Turn 14 at the latest, assuming we get Revenant or Death by Turn 10.

There's also a chance that building the Quintessence Harvester could potentially be done on Turn 12-13, which might speed things up a bit - but almost certainly not enough to be worth planning for massively. On the other hand, learning that "be patient and the Homeworld will ship Atraxas Veil Physics 4 at the start of Turn 13," is definitely important and reassuring news - boy should that cut down on the Veil Harvester failed attempts!

Edit June 27th: Reworked this whole section for new data - twice. The probable outcome got slightly brighter (one turn faster). One major note is that a snag on Homeworld Research of either Veil Physics or Revenant shouldn't delay Witness Awakening by more than a turn - since the other one will complete and let them rapidly brute-force the problem.



Also, as a note, Quintessence was stated to be in-the-ballpark-of 10x cheaper after the Witness wakes up.
Current cost: 1k Favor per Quintessence (or 100 Quintessence per Wish).
With Witness: 100 Favor each (or 1k Quintessence per Wish).
(With Quintessence Harvester is unknown, but I'll guess 10x cheaper yet.)

Still hilariously expensive, but since it lets us build low-WiH gear, it's good for special occasions.

Also-also, also from Discord, once we get Veil Shield and Flux Grid (both probably next turn - the first is great for defense and the second gives us Exatari Wishes which translate directly to OP Hero Gear), we'll have a 10k DC Action for Unlock First-Generation Veil Alloys (Homeworld might do it if we get distracted for long enough? Not sure). Once we do that, and awaken all LMs, we will be "two to 3 turns out" from Fourth-Generation Veil Alloys, which will support Three-Quintessence automatically.



Key notes from the Spoiler below:
  • Meta Flux generates a small prototype, not tons of Resources, but produces no Suspicion. Installing it costs tons of Suspicion but generates tons of Resources. Take note @The Froggy Ninja and all other planners!
  • Look for trustworthy assistants basically only gives +1 Assistant per Action, but can be taken max=5 times per category
    • MORE DIPLOMACY!!!
  • The Simulation Arrays (and 3E super-version) synergize nicely with Information 1
Q: Will the Meta Flux sequence generate Suspicion?
A: No, because its mostly just theory and some prototypes stashed away in Atraxas' home.
Q: Will Meta Flux (if finished) generate significant amounts of new Resources?
A: you would need to install it which would be sus heavy but would produce a crapton of resources
for amounts take the amounts listed in the Radiant Forge and multiply them by 10
of course it also enables the construction of Veil systems like planetary Veil Shields

Q: Could we get multiple Assistants off of a Look for trustworthy assistants Action that overflows to a sufficiently ridiculous extent?
A: you could in theory, but I will say that most of the overflow goes into getting better options

Q: Are we allowed to repeat Look for trustworthy assistants for a single category, or is it strictly "once per category"?
A: Look for trustworth assistants can be repeated for categories, but it has a soft cap of 5

Q: Just to double-check, Information's "Double Stats" effect won't give us more dice for the Simulation Arrays or the 3E Calc-Heart, will it?
A: It should, I dont recall ever saying it wouldnt
Q: Simulation Arrays explicitly don't include the Faith bonus, right? But they do include Information's doubling?
A: yes

Q: Because I have no idea: Will Information's "Double Stats" effect give us a "bonus to each die rolled" with the 3E Calc-Heart?
A: if you mean the bonus applying to each dice then if your normal skills apply then Information boost would apply, Information is just a normal boost at the end of the day as far as calculations are concerned, its only added in last so to speak

Q: Would finishing the Quintessence Harvester give the Homeworld any Research boost?
A: it would indirectly yes
Q: Would finishing the Quintessence Harvester and Veil Materials 4 (for 3E items) give the Homeworld any Research boost?
A: yes it would
Q: Would finishing the Quintessence Harvester, Veil Materials 4 (for 3E items), and integrate-Auramite-and-Blackstone give the Homeworld any Research boost?
A: a massive one yes
Q: Will we get a Homeworld Research boost when the Witness finishes Controlled-Breaking-Scholarship trials and puts the practice into general implementation?
A: I am not sure what you mean but if you mean will the Homeworld get another research boost from controlled broken scholars yes it will

Q: The last mention of Shezu's Weight/Resource production was back before you updated the resource node system. What would she add since she's in range of the Flux Grid?
For context: Strange Aeons: A 40k Xeno Governor Quest
A: Shezu would be around 10k for the Radiant forge and thus 100k for the Grid
yes Necrons are bullshit
especially Sapient ones
it will require some very creative accounting to actually use any of the Grid produced materials
Q: How much are Veil and Quintessence Harvesters worth to Homeworld?
A: the Veil Harvester is worth in the ballpark of 200 Favor, Quintessential Harvester is worth 2 Wishes

Q: Can Exatari digest and process ceramics
A: They can process most inorganic compounds with little effort
Q: What would happen if Atraxas ate the nechronal ceramics
A: not much would happen, their bodies would simply break it down and spit it out basically
warp shred is rather effective
against non phase forged enchantments

Q: Is it possible - at some future date - to convince/bribe the Sector Governor and local Inquisitors to downplay oddities of Shogi, for something like "-50% Suspicion reduction"? I would assume that it would be monumentally costly, and require top-notch Diplomatic and Intrigue offices - which would imply we'd want to wait a while to even consider it...
A: possible but if found it will trigger a massive investigation

Q: What happens if and when we run out of local Space Marine chapters to contact? Do we get ones from outside the Sector?
A: you can already contact chapters outside the sector they just have vastly higher DCs and costs

Q: What's required to get our Ships to low-DAoT Standard? A whole bunch of DAoT reverse-engineering, plus 100k+ progress on a Design Ship Action, I'd guess?
A: an absolute ton of Reverse Engineering, Full AIs, at least 10 Million on a Design Action (more around 100 Million to recreate an actual DAoT ship class)
the entire Imperial Fleet of the Great Crusade would fail to damage a single DAoT Battleship
it would have required Emps to take the field to bring down a fully operational DAoT battleship
the Primarch Flagships wouldnt be able to even scrach the shielding of DAoT ships if they were at full power
The DAoT existed at the relative peak of TL 12 across hundreds of technological fields
the Great Crusade Imperium had a scattershot array of TL 8 and 9 technological fields
the Current Imperium has a scattershot array of TL 4 to 8 in a bare handful of technological fields
right now its possible for the Imperium to build things to Great Crusade standard
its just exceptionally expensive and time consuming

Q: Could we make use of 3E gear that isn't personal - something like a Quintessence Harvester or a Planetary Shield - without leveling up Atraxas first?
A: Yes

Q: How many 3E Calc Hearts could Atraxas use at a time?
A: currently? 1 at most, post level up 2, maybe 3 if you really push it to the razor edge
of course that will take some time to grow to that level

Q: So our closest option for DAoT level flagship would be getting the Quintessence Harvesters set up and then Pinnacle Forging a currently top of the line ship?
A: that would go beyond technically
the Exatari are closer to the DAoT than the Imperium is
you actually have TL 12 fields
even if you only have a handful of them
compared to the DAoT's hundreds
Pinnacle Forging would result around a TL 14 to 16 level ship generally
granted a fully operational DAoT ship would probably win that fight
just due to having a ton of secondary options and nonsense
the DAoT was the Generalist faction
they dipped into literally everything
warp, null, veil whatnot was all under the DAoT
AIs are a great help for research

Q: Are Witness Rituals viable before the Witness Ascends?
A: they are not
Q: What would a Witness Ritual do? +100% tech research speed, maybe?
A: they would be focused on information processing, warp shredding, stability, narrative law rejection, and so forth

Q: How does Train an Attribute work? I'm guessing:
Resources: 50 if attribute starts in the 1-5 range, 100 if attribute starts in the 6-10 range, etc.
DC: 100 if attribute starts as 1, 200 if 2, 300 if 3, 400 if 4, 500 if 5, 700 if 6 (Tier is now 1), 800 if 7, 900 if 8, 1000 if 9, 1100 if 10, 1300 if 11 (Tier is now 2), etc?
As I understand it, you're also using your relevant attribute (so for +Learning you'd use Learning, for +Diplomacy you'd use Diplomacy).
I assume Calc-Heart bonuses would apply (except on Diplomacy).
...Which, oddly enough, suggests that all future Exatari Diplomats will be Radiant Scholars who got ~100 Learning before Breaking. Since you can fast-train Learning with Calc-Hearts, but not Diplomacy.
If we overflow the DC massively on Train an Attribute, and commit enough Resources, could we get multiple Attribute increases from a single Action?
It looks like the 3E Calc-Heart would let us massively overflow the DC on Train an Attribute, at least once we get Information 1, fwiw.
Looks like roughly +4.5 Learning per Action.
A: thats correct yes

Q: Is there a hard or soft upper limit on Exatari Learning?
A: not really, but the skill training does start going exponential in time investment cost at 50
A: Oh. Ah.
Then we really want to take a normal training action for +Learning before either Designs or Luraia.

Q: So if rationality (as expressed through computable factors) doesn't apply to diplomacy, does that mean diplomacy is an inherently Empyreal skill?
A: pretty much, in this setting there is an inherent degree of acausality with regards to diplomancy with sapient ensouled beings

Q: So Ascended would be better for Warp/Abyssal/Veil fuckery support gear. Whereas Pinnacle is mostly useful for materium technology
A: pretty much

A: Pinnacle Absolute Ascended Universal Understanding would have let the Old Ones and Necrontyr understand each other perfectly
...
Q: So, as an example, picking between Pinnacle and Ascended for Meta Shields, even though there is a physical tech component Ascended would be better, all else being equal.
Q: Which is better for a scanner for finding new meta particles, Ascended Veil or Pinnacle Veil?
A: new particles Ascended
for meta shields they are about equal
unless you do more phase forging in which case Ascended is better
...
Pinnacle Absolute Ascended Universal Understanding
would in effect be
Pinnacle (1), Ascended (1), Absolute (1), Universal (1), Understanding (1)
5^2 = 25
...
Pinnacle Ascended combined are items that warp all of reality around them
they dont have TL equivalents anymore
...
I will say that one of the ways to reduce the strain is to make the effect massive in scope
the more diffuse the effect the less strain it places on people
one of the ways to manage a strain of 25E would be to make it effect the entire galaxy
so everyone bears some of the strain

Q: What would a Pinnacle Ascended Heart look like?
A: Sets all rolls to 100 for anyone using it
all rolls gain a bonus of 500
gives 100 rolls to all actions using it
able to research anything regardless of restrictions
all DCs reduced by 95%
Enables critical results of 500x
...
its an effective 16E device
2+2 = 4 ^2 = 16

Pinnacle + Ascended basically combine to form Conceptual
it makes whatever its applied to the Conceptual form of that device
above all others
its the purest possible representation possible in reality
a Pinnacle Ascended Veil Shield would need to cover most of a segmenetum to offset its inherent weight
and it would still resist pretty much everything barring select DAoT weapons and WIH weapons
...
Summarized: Forge a few Pinnacle Ascended Isha Statues and casually rescue Isha from Shogi, while creating 0 or more extra Isha's. Sounds great! But...
...
not a single Exatari including the Witness could phase forge Pinnacle and Ascended together
the entire species including the Witness and all LMs working together linked as one mind could not achieve that
you dont have materials that can handle 3 Essences
Pinnacle Ascended is Base of 16 E
a roughly 5 fold jump
its a theoretical possibility for the species in the sense maybe in five billion years we will figure it out
but yeah Pinnacle Ascended items are far far far from being even a vague possibility
[5bil estimate] not accounting for veil gods
 
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Some of my numbers are mildly optimistic (turn 14 finishing Divinity), and some are mildly pessimistic (we could get Revenant TL1 on Turn 12, if we get Revenant now). All things considered, though, the Witness will probably awaken by Turn 15 at the latest, assuming we get Revenant or Death by Turn 11.
We may actually want to delay getting Revenant or Death since the Venerables would be able to notice our Radiance and might be less chill than the Witness.
 
We may actually want to delay getting Revenant or Death since the Venerables would be able to notice our Radiance and might be less chill than the Witness.
I thought Leon said that the Witness and the oldest of the Venerables both knew the reasoning behind Scholarship - and would thus agree that Atraxas is a proof of Exatari having genuinely advanced since the old days…
 
One hypothetical sequence of turns, assuming the Best Case that we don't have that much rebuilding to do:



Assume we've already got a few hundred planets and 2 Large Barges with Gravity-Theorems from Turn 9.
Assume we've got 20 Faith and 55 Learning, due respectively to help from Quirana Ranton and "Designs Of A Time Yet To Be (Learning)".

We should have a 3 Quintessence (3E) Calc-Heart, which should mean that any <1k DC Action can be done as a Free Atraxas Action (with the side-effect that we'll never get any overflow bonuses or critical successes). This should also increase Atraxas's DC/Action to:
  • Learning: ~21k *2 (average 4.2 crits)
  • Faith: ~8.7k *2 (average 2.8 crits)
  • All others: 16.8k *2 (average 3.8 crits)
(Everything doubled since the 3E Calc-Heart halves all DC difficulties.)



Turn 12:

Free: Various Free Actions to collect debris and repair stuff

Atraxas Personal x1: Ceg Ritual to buff Planetary Acq
500 Calc-Hearts into Planetary Acq should be 2500-odd progress, and difficulty is (500 base -25*2 barges = 450), so 5-and-a-bit successes. We should, by my estimates (which are probably not wildly optimistic), need an average of 2 more Successes than this to finish the whole project - perhaps we could get a Free Atraxas Success here (+1) and put in an Urma Action to finish the last +1?
This should also ensure that we have ~75k Resources/turn income.

The Veil Harvester (Learning) - Atraxas Personal x3, for ~126k progress - if we assume the success chances will change to 20% +10%/failure with the completion of Homeworld Veil Physics 1 on Turn 9/10, worst-case should be 9 attempts necessary, or 9000 DC. That leaves ~117k DC progress overflow - which should be solidly greater than the ~100k required to create a Quintessence Harvester. (This should get us 2 Megafavors, and maybe 200 Favor for the Veil Harvester.)

Atraxas Stewardship: Foundational Medical Care - costs 10 Suspicion and negligible Resources - good Resource multiplier, great system Health increase.

Harkar plus Atraxas Learning: Study Harkar's Augments.
One Atraxas Personal: Cybernetic Clinics (25 Suspicion).
(Atraxas could use Free Actions - but these are worth hunting overflow bonuses.)

Free Actions: Logistic Optimization (5 Sus), maybe Construct Testing Facility (25 Sus - probably too expensive), Study the Warp Drive, Study the Void Shield Generator, Study Naval Armor Design, Study Imperial Engine Design, Study any Imperial Weapons that won't cost Suspicion (or crazy amounts of other stuff), smith out a bunch of Exatari Alloys with your unknown Invoked Laws (1 batch per unknown), Hide a metric ton of Resources (DC: 980 for 980 Resources, I think?), probably Artificial Particle Theorems, probably Multi Energy Lance, almost definitely Grav Lance, maybe a few others.

Atraxas Diplomacy: -20 Suspicion.
Nameria Faith: -10 Suspicion.
Atraxas Intrigue: Get another Diplomacy assistant (max 5).

That leaves us with Atraxas Faith, and all Advisor Actions except one Urma Action and one Nameria Action and Harkar's Action.

Total Suspicion: anything from Planets + 10 Foundational Medical Care + 25 Cybernetics + 5 Logistics -30 Reductions = +10 Suspicion +Planets. This might just be 0 if we already got an extra Diplomacy assistant or figured out how to handle Akiona Mino's powers.

Results:
  • All Planets Acquired, tons of Resources, average ~25 new "interesting" Planets
  • Veil Harvester and Quintessence Harvester done, Quintessence cost reduces from 1000 each to ~10 each, 2 Megafavors gained
  • Foundational Medical Care implemented
  • Absurdly good cybernetics become standard on Shogi
    • I could see changing the order, and delaying the creation of said cybernetic facilities until after Streamline the Code of Law (probably next turn)... Several possible alternate picks, including Talk to Shezu...
  • All future ongoing Construction Actions gain a small bonus - which mostly is just useful for unlocking the next step of this Action chain
  • The Exatari get a full (but basic - no crits or overflow) analysis on all Imperial Ship design (we'll make up for this with the Relics and massive overflow on Design a Flagship)
  • All Unknown Invoked Laws studied
  • Hidden Resources available for next turn
  • Some low-grade Relics reverse-engineered
  • +1 Diplo Assistant (for Styles and Suspicion reduction!)


Then Turn 13 - when we can burn 1-3 Wounds for Actions, assuming we're not using much 3E Gear - would be something like:

A bunch of free "Upgrade Imperial Armor / Engines" Actions.

Atraxas Personal 1x to build out a Meta Flux Grid and hook it up to our brand-new shiny Veil and Quintessence Harvesters, so they produce tons of stuff for free! (Producing Ex Nihilo Resources is hard to hide. Alloys much less so. Invoked Laws and Quintessence should be nearly free.)

Atraxas Personal 1x to unlock basic Veil Materials. (This should mean that 3E gear becomes "cheap" within 3 turns of Witness Awakening - if by that you mean "less than 1k Favor each." Of course, that also means we can order about 100 items of 3E gear for a Megafavor, so yeah: cheap! That should also be a notable Exatari Research Multiplier, for obvious reasons.)

Atraxas Learning on Primordial Abacus (since we can avoid even hinting at the existence of such a thing with our Hidden Resources).

Free Action: Create emergency evacuation measures (Intrigue) (again - Hidden Resources)

Atraxas Stewardship: Streamline the code of law (145 Suspicion) (hilarious overflow)

Atraxas Diplomacy plus Atraxas Personal 10x plus Diplo Advisor - various -20 Suspicion with chance of not completing (some may autosucceed), plus Moriya and Public Opinion for -10 Sus each - should average something like -130 Suspicion.
Nameria 1x: -10 Suspicion Faith.
Nameria has enough Diplomacy she might be able to contact out-sector Shrine Worlds or Moriya or something?

Atraxas Intrigue: Another Diplo Advisor.

Various other projects - we've used all available Atraxas Actions, though we could maybe put 2 less on Diplomacy and get something else done instead. Perhaps buy up a few DAoT Artifacts? Hopefully start forging Adamantine.

Suspicion cost should be +145 -140ish = 5 net, over the turn. Assuming this doesn't put us past 100, we don't get audited. We should get +50 to Suspicion Cap for Streamline the Code of Law, so we should be 45 further from the Cap.



Turn 14:

Atraxas Stewardship 1: Found the Ministry of Construction. This should overflow hilariously.

Atraxas Stewardship 2: Juve Nat Facility (Universal). Costs 70 Suspicion and negligible (lol) Resources.

Atraxas Diplomacy 2x plus Atraxas Personal 2x plus Diplo Advisor 2x - various -20 Suspicion with chance of not completing, plus Shrine Worlds for -10 Sus - should average something like -70 Suspicion.
Nameria 1x: -10 Suspicion Faith.

Atraxas Learning 2x: Produce and Incorporate Auramite and Blackstone (not sure how far we'll get on this - but hopefully a ways).

Atraxas Intrigue 2x: Get our last 2 Diplo assistants.

Atraxas Personals 4x: Augments for Advisors, Styles, etc. etc.

Other stuff.

Total Suspicion: -10 (plus anything unlisted).



Turn 15:

Ministry of Construction: 2-turning System Overhaul (25 Suspicion; lots of Resources - and boy isn't that something to say when you have something like 100k).

Atraxas Stewardship 1: Renovate infrastructure (25 Suspicion, negligible (lol) Resources).
Atraxas Stewardship 2: System Orbital Alignment (unknown Suspicion but estimated 45 after Discount).

Atraxas Diplomacy 2x plus Atraxas Personal 2x plus Diplo Advisor 4x - various -20 Suspicion with chance of not completing, plus Shrine Worlds for -10 Sus - should average something like -80 Suspicion.
Nameria 1x: -10 Suspicion Faith.

Make sure we do Merge Styles this turn - our Faith Actions should have been able to grab a few Xenos groups, and we should have been able to do them without Suspicion due to Hidden Resources. Plus we've got a bunch of "Contact Space Marine Chapter XYZ" Styles. Hopefully this will cost exactly 0 Suspicion and incorporate 20+ Styles.



Turn 16:

Ministry of Construction: 2-turning System Overhaul.

Atraxas Intrigue 1: Reformation of the Shadows (45 Suspicion).

Atraxas will need to ensure we get plenty of high-tech Alloy production around here...



Turns 17-21:

Ministry of Construction: 1-turn Matryoshka stages 1-5. (maybe only 1-4 or 1-3; we'll see what the hard numbers are)

Atraxas should design a Flagship - because we should be able to mass-produce Battleships by this point.
Also make sure to talk to Machine Spirits once we've reverse-engineered enough stuff.
A bunch of 3E gear.
Library-hunting. Meta Libraries for all!



Wow I've put way too much thought into this.

I'm almost certain I've missed some ideal-choices. Particularly, I think the Relics should be reverse-engineered sooner. Not much sooner, maybe - since Quintessence Harvester and Streamline the Code of Law are both critical to get in ASAP - but still.

I'm also almost certain that, around the time we get >100k Resources/turn, we should look into bribing/convincing the Sector Governor and various Inquisitors. "Half all Suspicion gains, rounding down any fractions" or whatever Leon stats it as, should be very nice for getting stuff done. Living World, for example, would be extremely useful - but is also insanely expensive (Sus).

Diplomacy - likely we could do more, there. Get to max-cap advisors (5), then buff them all with Augments? Do the Harkar-study, Human-biology-study, and Learning-chair-relic Actions before buffing, and the results should be impressive probably. We might even be able to incorporate the effects of Information 1 +VeilPhysics1 for "Diplomacy score x2.1 multiplier." In a truly ideal case, we might be able to leave the augments open to basic retrofitting as we gain VeilPhysics levels...

I'm questioning the results of "running out of Space Marine chapters to contact." Do we start contacting out-sector chapters at that point? Same system, higher DCs?

Regardless, I'm really looking forward to a hypothetical Turn 25 where we get invaded by the 12th Black Crusade and reply with "oh, we're going to build 300 Battleships with full attendant Fleets per turn, and yeah they're all far-past-Great-Crusade tech, and even that pales to the defensive power of our System."



Working sketch of plan, as of July 3rd:

Turn 9: see thread page 100; add to this all necessary Military buildup (make sure to consider turn 10 requirements as well here!)
Turn 10: Military buildup
Turn 11: Invasion
Turn 12-13: 4 Actions to 3E Calc-Heart Prereqs, a bunch of Actions to Diplo Office
Turn 14: Streamline the Code of Law (most of the Suspicion cost defrayed by Diplo Office)
 
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Ceg Ritual to buff Planetary Acq
Somewhat bold to assume we'll have developed ceg rituals by then.
Hide a metric ton of Resources (DC: 980 for 980 Resources, I think?)
Keep in mind the initial Hidden Wealth cap is 50 and improvements are likely time gated.
Nameria's probably going to be bullying us into studying Exatari and other Xeno religions.
Veil Harvester and Quintessence Harvester done, Quintessence cost reduces from 1000 each to ~10 each, 2 Megafavors gained
Not to mention the value of being able to produce our own in-house.
Atraxas Personal 1x to build out a Meta Flux Grid and hook it up to our brand-new shiny Veil and Quintessence Harvesters, so they produce tons of stuff for free! (Producing Ex Nihilo Resources is hard to hide. Alloys much less so. Invoked Laws and Quintessence should be nearly free.)
We're gonna want to build our Flux Grid before the incursion to power our Veil Shield and defensive Primordial Arrays.
Atraxas Personal 1x to unlock basic Veil Materials. (This should mean that 3E gear becomes "cheap" within 3 turns of Witness Awakening - if by that you mean "less than 1k Favor each." Of course, that also means we can order about 100 items of 3E gear for a Megafavor, so yeah: cheap! That should also be a notable Exatari Research Multiplier, for obvious reasons.)
Most 3E gear is going to be fairly useless to us until we get some spiritual evolution and High Exotic biological integration.
 
Somewhat bold to assume we'll have developed ceg rituals by then.
Fair.
Keep in mind the initial Hidden Wealth cap is 50 and improvements are likely time gated.
Fair unless bypassed by extreme Overflow.
Also: should still be a Free Action with a 3E Heart, so we'll get it eventually.
Nameria's probably going to be bullying us into studying Exatari and other Xeno religions.
True, but that might have already made progress before the Eleventh Hour.
And, if not - well, we can do it on Turn 13 of my suggestions anyway.
We're gonna want to build our Flux Grid before the incursion to power our Veil Shield and defensive Primordial Arrays.
Oh - good point!
Most 3E gear is going to be fairly useless to us until we get some spiritual evolution and High Exotic biological integration.
Only half-relevant, since the Witness is expected to wake up around Turn 15-16ish, so the earliest that 3E gear could become commonplace would be the end of Turn 17. And with Atraxas' starting Bio Integration on Turn 14, well - that should have considerable progress.

But the spiritual evolution thing is correct.

I do wonder about 3E gear that isn't personal - something like a Quintessence Harvester or a Planetary Shield...
 
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