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Star Wars General Discussion Thread

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Z-Cosmonaut said:
This sounds interesting to me. Could you explain further what you mean by this?
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Sure.

In the realm of JRPGs, Final Fantasy is a Genre, not a Setting. Each Final Fantasy that comes out makes the deliberate and now expected choice to not be related in any literal, direct way to any other final fantasy (exceptions apply, they prove the rule). What happens to the story in each game is that it's a unique, closed story that takes however long it wants to tell itself, and it leans on nothing else to form its own backbone and narrative. It's just a nice, standalone adventure.

As a franchise, what marks each final fantasy as being related is, instead of direct continuity, a big pile of tropes and structure choices and aesthetics or art design. Most final fantasies have a team of heroes with unclear goals and pure-ish hearts. Most final fantasies have a focus on four elemental powers holding the structure of the world. Most final fantasies have an airship piloted by a dude named Cid. Most final fantasies are concerned with a plot to save the world in its time of peril/decline. Most final fantasies have giant ride-able chickens. Most final fantsies have a big flaming bull dude named Ifrit and if you try hard and believe in yourself you can make him show up and punch somebody. Most final fantasies have a dude named Biggs and Wedge.

When you play a final fantasy cold, you get introduced to all these things for the first time. When you play the others, you get to see new iterations that are both new and familiar. They still tell their own story, and do it without any real relation to each other, but you can rely on all of these things to help set the tone of the world and help set your own expectations for what you'll find.

So when I say star wars needs to be Final fantasied, I mean that we need new star wars films that just... Don't take place in the Skywalker galaxy. Make a new star wars movie that just tells a new story. The skywalker movies aren't intrinsically necessary to have a Star Wars movie. Star Wars movies have Ww2 dog-fighting laser planes. They have swashbuckling laser duelists. They have space wizards with magic powers. They have an opening title crawl that sets up the stakes and the world.

Make each movie takes place in some different aesthetic setting--this movie is in space. This movie is in a more literal fantastical WW2 (Do you want to see an eye-patched pilot lady in a bomberjacket shooting dayglo pewpews out of the side of a B-52 while laser-swording a boarding party? I do!) Each movie has different guys named Seethreepio and Artoodeetoo following the heroes.

Use Star Wars as a genre and aesthetic choice instead of one beholden to any kind of sequential continuity.
 
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Tbh I think I'd settle for it being a setting. In many ways the trap for the new movies was them being seen as part of a unitary story.

Though there's the added wrinkle that the "this is the culmination of the Skywalker Saga" talk really seemed to begin with the Episode IX promo, to explain why they were trying to follow up things from seven movies instead of the one directly preceding it.
 
Joviwan said:
*Really amazing commentary*
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Tbh, this is the kind of thing I'd definitely be down for.

I'm all for building on the history and events we have so far, but I also feel like one of the most persistent problems with Star Wars as a setting is its inability to move on from the Original Trilogy.

And as cherished as the Original Trilogy is, this issue existed even back then. As great of a movie as Return of the Jedi was: it was still another plot that revolved around the destruction of a dangerous superweapon built by the Empire. I don't think we can overstate the issue here: three out of the nine Star Wars trilogy movies have in some way involved the destruction of a superweapon built by the Empire/First Order. At this point, I think we've honestly done all we can with such concepts and need to move on to something else. Like, don't get me wrong, Return of the Jedi was great, and the story it told, it told well, but that doesn't mean it didn't squander an opportunity to tell a more original and unique story.

One of the things I like so much about Rogue One is that it gave us a whole new cast of characters that had no relation whatsoever to any pre-existing characters. It gave the creators far more freedom and independence to tell their own story than they would if they had worked with any established characters from the franchise.

It is, after all, a whole galaxy, and yet, there are times where the viewer can get the impression that nothing that happens in a galaxy with trillions of inhabitants actually matters unless it involves someone named Skywalker. I like the Skywalker saga that the films gave us, but I also think it's time to move on from it.

In the same way that Star Trek was unafraid to move on from the Original Series and have a new captain and whole new stories that dramatically changed the setting, so too should Star Wars do the same. In other words: Star Wars needs to move on from the Original Trilogy and stop trying to recreate it. It can evoke it, it can call back to it, but it can't remake it.
 
Joviwan said:
Sure.

In the realm of JRPGs, Final Fantasy is a Genre, not a Setting. Each Final Fantasy that comes out makes the deliberate and now expected choice to not be related in any literal, direct way to any other final fantasy (exceptions apply, they prove the rule). What happens to the story in each game is that it's a unique, closed story that takes however long it wants to tell itself, and it leans on nothing else to form its own backbone and narrative. It's just a nice, standalone adventure.

As a franchise, what marks each final fantasy as being related is, instead of direct continuity, a big pile of tropes and structure choices and aesthetics or art design. Most final fantasies have a team of heroes with unclear goals and pure-ish hearts. Most final fantasies have a focus on four elemental powers holding the structure of the world. Most final fantasies have an airship piloted by a dude named Cid. Most final fantasies are concerned with a plot to save the world in its time of peril/decline. Most final fantasies have giant ride-able chickens. Most final fantsies have a big flaming bull dude named Ifrit and if you try hard and believe in yourself you can make him show up and punch somebody. Most final fantasies have a dude named Biggs and Wedge.

When you play a final fantasy cold, you get introduced to all these things for the first time. When you play the others, you get to see new iterations that are both new and familiar. They still tell their own story, and do it without any real relation to each other, but you can rely on all of these things to help set the tone of the world and help set your own expectations for what you'll find.

So when I say star wars needs to be Final fantasied, I mean that we need new star wars films that just... Don't take place in the Skywalker galaxy. Make a new star wars movie that just tells a new story. The skywalker movies aren't intrinsically necessary to have a Star Wars movie. Star Wars movies have Ww2 dog-fighting laser planes. They have swashbuckling laser duelists. They have space wizards with magic powers. They have an opening title crawl that sets up the stakes and the world.

Make each movie takes place in some different aesthetic setting--this movie is in space. This movie is in a more literal fantastical WW2 (Do you want to see an eye-patched pilot lady in a bomberjacket shooting dayglo pewpews out of the side of a B-52 while laser-swording a boarding party? I do!) Each movie has different guys named Seethreepio and Artoodeetoo following the heroes.

Use Star Wars as a genre and aesthetic choice instead of one beholden to any kind of sequential continuity.
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I was with you till the last sentence, but agree overall, but then isn't that what working on a genre project is?

kind of feel like a complete loss of canon is a bit baby with the bath water though.

bluntblade said:
Tbh I think I'd settle for it being a setting. In many ways the trap for the new movies was them being seen as part of a unitary story.

Though there's the added wrinkle that the "this is the culmination of the Skywalker Saga" talk really seemed to begin with the Episode IX promo, to explain why they were trying to follow up things from seven movies instead of the one directly preceding it.
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That's a really odd take considering the marketing for 7 relied so highly on the "see what happened to your favorite characters", and a good part of the plot was setup for what happened to Luke.

To be honest, it seems like you really liked 8 and most of your points involve warping the rest of the ST around its themes.
 
Joviwan said:
It works for Final Fantasy.
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eh does it though? At least not really in the way you are describing.

leaving out the whole video games=/=movies.

pretty much all of the most popular FF games have multiple parts in their sub franchises with direct sequels ,additional supplemental materials, and fairly deep lore.

actually thinking about in total just shy of half of all numbered FF games have at least one sequel Regardless of quality.

it seems like what you are saying is that if you are going to work on a genre project it is good to know what the conventions of that genre are, which I agree with. But what I don't agree with is that it is Necessary Or even a good idea really to reboot it into a separate franchise with every iteration.

Plus it seems like you some what conflating character types and Easter eggs/ call backs.

take for example Wedge and Biggs in some games they are antagonists or enemies, in some they are members of your team, in some they are supporting characters. They are not really repetitions of recognizable characters.

Contrast that with a stock character like the robot buddy,The OT has a robot buddy, fallen order has a robot buddy, KotoR has a robot buddy. Not all of them need to be named R2.
 
kjyl said:
That's a really odd take considering the marketing for 7 relied so highly on the "see what happened to your favorite characters", and a good part of the plot was setup for what happened to Luke.

To be honest, it seems like you really liked 8 and most of your points involve warping the rest of the ST around its themes.
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Well, we dealt with what happened to Luke, and the story needed to actually pivot around the new characters and, yes, the themes raised in Episode VIII.

And that's the difference between marketing and the actual storytelling. Even then, it was still showing off Rey, Finn and Kylo with just glimpses of Han and Chewie. The story was going to be in large part about the new characters.

Is it really wanting to warp the story, to want IX to actually follow VIII with any degree of fidelity?
 
kjyl said:
eh does it though? At least not really in the way you are describing.

leaving out the whole video games=/=movies.

pretty much all of the most popular FF games have multiple parts in their sub franchises with direct sequels ,additional supplemental materials, and fairly deep lore.

actually thinking about in total just shy of half of all numbered FF games have at least one sequel Regardless of quality.

it seems like what you are saying is that if you are going to work on a genre project it is good to know what the conventions of that genre are, which I agree with. But what I don't agree with is that it is Necessary Or even a good idea really to reboot it into a separate franchise with every iteration.

Plus it seems like you some what conflating character types and Easter eggs/ call backs.

take for example Wedge and Biggs in some games they are antagonists or enemies, in some they are members of your team, in some they are supporting characters. They are not really repetitions of recognizable characters.

Contrast that with a stock character like the robot buddy,The OT has a robot buddy, fallen order has a robot buddy, KotoR has a robot buddy. Not all of them need to be named R2.
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Look, I said all that while also considering X-2 to be my second favorite final fantasy game. It still stands that there are (at least? Does Bravely Default count?) 15 complete and enumerated Final Fantasy experiences that have literally nothing to do with each other beyond having a similar artistic toolset to tell their stories. When you play a final fantasy game with a big number and no colons or hyphens or en-dashes, you do not expect to play the next adventure of a group of serialized protagonists. You expect to play a Final Fantasy game, with magic and monsters and warriors and maybe job classes and an airship piloted by Cid and probably an environmental message that doesn't quite reach the level of 'subtext'.

I'm waxing a LITTLE hyperbolic when I suggest that we should not be lashed to the breaking wheel of ~Canon~; sequential storytelling obviously exists and it exists for a reason. In the case of Star Wars, I am just entirely and deeply and utterly exhausted by the fact that all of the star wars that is being released must go out of it's way to care that the rest of every detail of star wars exists.

Star Wars has room to be so much cooler and go bigger and be refreshed artistically. You can change an awful lot about it and still fundamentally be a War in the Stars. It's full of big bright beautiful energy and it doesn't get to explore any of it because it's all had to pretend that Luke Skywalker is real.

I don't intend to posit that we should never have a direct sequel ever again. I just think it's time to let the premise of what a star wars can be grow beyond what it's been.
 
I think I'd prefer a more... Cultured take, if you'll forgive the pun. The Culture novels share a setting, but for the most part have totally new characters and a fairly vague (and occasionally contradictory) chronology. Only two characters appear in more than one story, and in one of those cases, it's actually quite hard to notice.

That said, with the depth of Lore™ that already exists for the Star Wars setting, it's probably a little late for that at this point; there's not really enough vagueness left.
 
Joviwan said:
Thoughts
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I have to say, when reading this, I can't but be reminded about the Old Republic era works. I mean, most of the works that take place in the Old Republic era are so far apart from each other, that what happens in the past (and the future for that matter) have no effect on any lone work. As a result, they seem to be mostly blank canvases that can create any story as long as they pay attention to a few rules. And they all still look like Star Wars despite taking thousands of years before the Skywalker Saga, because of those rules. Kotor 1, especially, borrows so many motifs from the original Star Wars and the aesthetic looks so similar, that I think one could say that it takes place in an alternate universe and people would still take it. Then if you want a more divergent aesthetic, the era of Exar Kun and Nomi Sunrider are cool examples that still use many of the ideas and set pieces that make Star Wars "Star Wars", while still doing something completely on their own.
 
Very much agree. And it was the promise of taking Star Wars into new territory, one way or another, which brought new fans into the fold with the Disney era. Even if that was going to be with the new characters starting in the shadow of the old and stepping out into the spotlight.
 
Z-Cosmonaut said:
I have to say, when reading this, I can't but be reminded about the Old Republic era works. I mean, most of the works that take place in the Old Republic era are so far apart from each other, that what happens in the past (and the future for that matter) have no effect on any lone work. As a result, they seem to be mostly blank canvases that can create any story as long as they pay attention to a few rules. And they all still look like Star Wars despite taking thousands of years before the Skywalker Saga, because of those rules. Kotor 1, especially, borrows so many motifs from the original Star Wars and the aesthetic looks so similar, that I think one could say that it takes place in an alternate universe and people would still take it. Then if you want a more divergent aesthetic, the era of Exar Kun and Nomi Sunrider are cool examples that still use many of the ideas and set pieces that make Star Wars "Star Wars", while still doing something completely on their own.
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I'm growing some mixed feelings about how the various video games interact in this way, because many do set themselves deliberately incredibly far away from "existing" storytelling in order to give themselves freedom--but that freedom isn't really spent on DOING anything terribly unique, in the end. They sort of go out of their way to frame their world as existing in the same space as the movies, but the insistence that it's a big time gap makes the basically slavish adherence to aesthetic and design feel really weird in context. And it has Jedi and Sith and they follow all the same rules that everyone has had to pretend that Jedi and Sith follow, they all take place on the same planets everyone has seen before, the ships are all identical, the baddies always fly triangles and the goodies always fly round bulbous hammers. KotoR 2 still manages to be a game that is About Star Wars (see previous rambles) rather than being a Star Wars game, etc.

I still like them despite this and despite their regular and unrelated flaws. SWTOR especially actually has tried repeatedly to do something different, even though it can never commit to achieving that because it must maintain a variety of perceived star wars status quos and also it's an MMO and they are inherently static and resistant to change/being changed.
 
Joviwan said:
I still like them despite this and despite their regular and unrelated flaws. SWTOR especially actually has tried repeatedly to do something different, even though it can never commit to achieving that because it must maintain a variety of perceived star wars status quos and also it's an MMO and they are inherently static and resistant to change/being changed.
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I must say, even if I find the whole Valkorion concept/arc/character rather unsatisfying since, to me, he kinda comes off as an imitation Palpatine (which again... inability to move past the OT) I at least like what they tried to do.

They tried to turn the neverending conflict between the Republic/Jedi against the Sith on its head. And they presented some completely unknown third faction that could care less about the Jedi/Sith conflict and was in fact actively provoking conflict so as to exhaust both sides and leave them weak against the Eternal Empire.

See, that's cool, it's interesting, it hasn't been done before. And it gives us a good idea of the scale of the Star Wars setting: some massive empire with extraordinary power and military might comes seemingly out of nowhere because it dwells in unknown and unexplored space and thus nobody has ever heard of it.

I would argue that the attempt fell short in some respects: Valkorion actually having been the Sith Emperor all along comes across as silly. The plot would be just as effective if Valkorion were watching from the shadows, waiting for the Sith and Republic to exhaust themselves until such a time as he could strike.

But that doesn't mean it wasn't a good attempt or that it wasn't something we should see more of. Quite the contrary, I like that Bioware just totally does its own thing. Whether or not that thing is successful is up for debate, but even if it isn't: sometimes you find the wrong answers in search of the right answers.
 
Heavy W. Guy said:
I must say, even if I find the whole Valkorion concept/arc/character rather unsatisfying since, to me, he kinda comes off as an imitation Palpatine (which again... inability to move past the OT) I at least like what they tried to do.

They tried to turn the neverending conflict between the Republic/Jedi against the Sith on its head. And they presented some completely unknown third faction that could care less about the Jedi/Sith conflict and was in fact actively provoking conflict so as to exhaust both sides and leave them weak against the Eternal Empire.

See, that's cool, it's interesting, it hasn't been done before. And it gives us a good idea of the scale of the Star Wars setting: some massive empire with extraordinary power and military might comes seemingly out of nowhere because it dwells in unknown and unexplored space and thus nobody has ever heard of it.

I would argue that the attempt fell short in some respects: Valkorion actually having been the Sith Emperor all along comes across as silly. The plot would be just as effective if Valkorion were watching from the shadows, waiting for the Sith and Republic to exhaust themselves until such a time as he could strike.

But that doesn't mean it wasn't a good attempt or that it wasn't something we should see more of. Quite the contrary, I like that Bioware just totally does its own thing. Whether or not that thing is successful is up for debate, but even if it isn't: sometimes you find the wrong answers in search of the right answers.
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Broadly agree!

I liked the part where he was secretly (not really a secretly) the former Emperor the whole time just because it plays very well with Sith Warrior and Jedi Knight (who are both the true protagonists of SWTOR, don't @ me). It's just such a shame that the culmination of that storyline boils down to "okay, now which of these two groups do you align with" and we're back at square one, basically.

The characters were cool and I appreciated literally any attempt to freshen up the formula, even if most of it was hollow dressing ("x will remember this," lol). The character of Valkorian in general I found very refreshing from start to finish. I might be the only person who really enjoys how the character spends his entire existence talking about how great and unique and special and powerful and unusual and strange he is, only to get to the end of the story and it turns out he's actually just your garden variety toolbag sith lord with a hokey immortality plot, he was just pretty strong and could sell anyone on his lies thanks to his gravely hot villain voice.
 
Heavy W. Guy said:
See, that's cool, it's interesting, it hasn't been done before. And it gives us a good idea of the scale of the Star Wars setting: some massive empire with extraordinary power and military might comes seemingly out of nowhere because it dwells in unknown and unexplored space and thus nobody has ever heard of it.
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There might've been an interesting story to be told about the First Order growing in the Unknown Regions.

Actually, I was thinking you could have some cool Battlefront campaigns with the First Order one covering their rise and maybe campaigns against the New Republic, and another which puts you in the shoes of a Republic soldier as everything goes to hell and leads you into fighting alongside the Resistance later on.
 
bluntblade said:
There might've been an interesting story to be told about the First Order growing in the Unknown Regions.

Actually, I was thinking you could have some cool Battlefront campaigns with the First Order one covering their rise and maybe campaigns against the New Republic, and another which puts you in the shoes of a Republic soldier as everything goes to hell and leads you into fighting alongside the Resistance later on.
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That would require the First Order to make sense or pose any kind of real threat when not absolutely plot mandated and for those five minutes only.

It would also require the Republic to put up half a fight at least somewhere.


I may still be bitter that somehow the Republic and Empire both come off as wet paper bags that exist to further one family's drama in the ST. Somehow the world just seems so much smaller even if it has just as many locations and special effects and costumes as it ever did. It just...I can't care about what happens to the galaxy, nothing in it matters.


I guess any game or series could get around it by putting some thought into it but from what we've seen so far Disney has a pretty clear idea what it wants the galaxy to look like in the days right after ROTJ and just before TFA and they've passed that on creatively. I think the New Canon has a bunch of school aged children decapitate the Imperial Government a few months after the Death Star and we've seen onscreen how little threat the FO poses, they spend their screentime getting their asses kicked however many death fleets they have.



Of course I've thought for like years now that the SW universe really needs to work on its villain factions (and no this does not mean making them secretly the faction that is supposed to rule the galaxy in the end) because for I always tend to judge a work by its villains and they whilst often quite good on the individual level always seem to portray it as a galaxy of incompetent losers held briefly above water by three people. And when they seem to swipe aside the good guys it always seems because somehow the Republic make stupidity into an art form and also democracy bad.


In my view Sith should be a cancer, feeding off the weakness and ignorance and flaws of the Republic, growing in the cracks recruiting the masses, using sabotage, surprise, insurgencies, assassinations and occasionally mass uprisings mixed in with elite strike forces spear headed by legions of disposable alcolytes. They should be impossible to stomp out and the empires and factions they build should be short lived and explosive but always a threat and always just a breath away from coming back.

To me the FO should not have been a reskinned Empire, it should have been a small elite force of human supremacists hacking a divided Republic to pieces appearing and disappearing and waging a campaign of terror along the outer rim whilst the core turns a blind eye because a lot of core worlds are nostalgic to the Empire. To me it should be more terrorist group than would be galactic government and the fight of the series should be to make the Republic something worth defending. The OT cleared away the Empire but its up to the next generation to truly replace it with something good.

I rant about this at length every month or two, I'm still mad.:oops:
 
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I understand why they went with the bigger stakes. I mean, what you're describing there feels more like the TV series after the main story is all wrapped up, where it's just about protecting the status quo. But yeah, we should really have started off within the New Republic and got a sense of what it and the First Order really were.
 
bluntblade said:
Well, we dealt with what happened to Luke, and the story needed to actually pivot around the new characters and, yes, the themes raised in Episode VIII.

And that's the difference between marketing and the actual storytelling. Even then, it was still showing off Rey, Finn and Kylo with just glimpses of Han and Chewie. The story was going to be in large part about the new characters.

Is it really wanting to warp the story, to want IX to actually follow VIII with any degree of fidelity?
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Kinda? I mean it is Literally even known as the Sequel Trilogy.

Here's the thing There are no plot points in eight that I consider intrinsically bad I do think it's a misstep in where it falls in the cycle And I think it wasn't the best edited movie.

Do I think that some of the themes in eight are interesting and could make a very good Star Wars movie yes, do I think that it wasn't really the place to try to make that movie almost certainly.

Honestly I would compare and someways to the final season of Game of Thrones I mean it's an ending and such but it's not really what the fans wanted and I don't think that doing what the fans Want is always a terrible thing?


Joviwan said:
Look, I said all that while also considering X-2 to be my second favorite final fantasy game.
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if nothing else this proves you to be a gentleperson of culture and taste.

Honestly I think we are on pretty much the same wavelength

Gravitas Hunt said:
I think I'd prefer a more... Cultured take, if you'll forgive the pun. The Culture novels share a setting, but for the most part have totally new characters and a fairly vague (and occasionally contradictory) chronology. Only two characters appear in more than one story, and in one of those cases, it's actually quite hard to notice.

That said, with the depth of Lore™ that already exists for the Star Wars setting, it's probably a little late for that at this point; there's not really enough vagueness left.
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Pretty much this, though I do not think that the current Disney lore is quite The straight jacket you seem to think. Fallen order, and the Mandalorian both take things in new directions and explore themes that really haven't been addressed in the current canon but still manages to color in the lines as it were.

Honestly it's why I am moderately excited that Tico Watititi (sp) might do a move because he has shown he can do a genre film in a serielized format that still has its own character
 
We've been over this. What The Fans Wanted isn't this single entity, because The Fans aren't a monolith. TLJ gave me what I wanted, along with things I didn't know I wanted. And apart from anything else... it's kind of easier to do an adventure film series about younger, fresh characters than a collection of sixtysomethings. A sequel can have varying degrees of closeness to the original - I mean, just look at 2049.

GoT is its own issue, not least as in terms of the execution it's much closer to TRoS as it drags the characters onto rails and ignores where they were headed through their organic growth. It also wasn't lumbered with expectations from fans who were livid that we didn't get a victory lap for Ned and that Robert had turned into a bitter fatarse.

And before anyone starts drawing 1:1 parallels between offing Snoke and the Night King, I'd say that killing Snoke by the hand of his own apprentice is creative destruction (like, it's explicitly done with the intent to make Kylo the villain) whilst the Night King suddenly being done in by Arya... is not.
 
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kjyl said:
Pretty much this, though I do not think that the current Disney lore is quite The straight jacket you seem to think. Fallen order, and the Mandalorian both take things in new directions and explore themes that really haven't been addressed in the current canon but still manages to color in the lines as it were.

Honestly it's why I am moderately excited that Tico Watititi (sp) might do a move because he has shown he can do a genre film in a serielized format that still has its own character
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That's not quite what I meant. Both the Mandalorian and Fallen Order are very deliberately placed at a particular point in a rapidly changing setting. They reference events like Order 66, Endor, etc., and are in large part derived from those events, quite unlike anything in the Culture novels. I suppose that's the difference you get between the opus of one author and a colossal media franchise!
 
bluntblade said:
There might've been an interesting story to be told about the First Order growing in the Unknown Regions.

Actually, I was thinking you could have some cool Battlefront campaigns with the First Order one covering their rise and maybe campaigns against the New Republic, and another which puts you in the shoes of a Republic soldier as everything goes to hell and leads you into fighting alongside the Resistance later on.
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There have been rumours here or there of a whole trilogy of SW movies set in the Unknown Regions and tbh I like the idea.

We could explore whole different societies with their own dynamics, struggles, and responses to things like the Force. And all of this while the inhabitants are blissfully unaware of events elsewhere in the galaxy: the Clone Wars, the rise of the Empire, etc.
 
Heavy W. Guy said:
There have been rumours here or there of a whole trilogy of SW movies set in the Unknown Regions and tbh I like the idea.

We could explore whole different societies with their own dynamics, struggles, and responses to things like the Force. And all of this while the inhabitants are blissfully unaware of events elsewhere in the galaxy: the Clone Wars, the rise of the Empire, etc.
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That's the one that Johnson intended to do, so take that hope and bin it before it grows any more. At this stage, the best-case scenario is that he salvages the story and incorporates it into a different setting.
 
bluntblade said:
And before anyone starts drawing 1:1 parallels between offing Snoke and the Night King, I'd say that killing Snoke by the hand of his own apprentice is creative destruction (like, it's explicitly done with the intent to make Kylo the villain) whilst the Night King suddenly being done in by Arya... is not.
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Admittedly it more surprising when dark side users don't murder or plot to murder their masters in star wars because murdering the master, their fellows or their underlings is pretty normal for darkside users.

Over both new and old canons I can recall only a few sith lords and other darkside users I can recall actually managed to die of old age instead of getting killed, usually because they were so insanely powerful, the patron saint of being to powerful to kill apparently being Markos Ragnos who died of old age then still managed to cause trouble as a ghost.

The darkside apparently doesn't just come with cookies it also comes with complimentary chronic backstabbing disorder and distain for life with every bite.
 
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