Skitterdoc 2077

[Logos01]

It isn't really a problem with capitalism, then. It's a problem with government. The civilizational hazard portrayed in cyberpunk settings is actually fascism; the collusion between corporations and the State. In cyberpunk, that problem has metastasized to the point that corporations have so much political power that they can act as governments in and of themselves, while the original government has been completely eaten from the inside out before the rats that are left jump ship to equivalent positions within corpos.

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To compound on this: a cyberpunk setting generally is synonymous with "megacorps". The only real way for megacorps to form in the first place is for them to engage in wanton regulatory capture and unrestricted lobbying.

The only meaningful preventative measure to that is decentralized regulation. That's not the same thing as "self-regulation", but rather rigorously empowered non-profits providing transparency and investigative reporting to public subscribers who provide those NGO's with limited power of attorney for the purpose of enacting class actions against harmful corporations on their subscribers' behalf.

So yeah. While the end state of megacorps is "amok capitalism", the irony is that the only way you get to that point is by having a government for them to collude with.

(Which could be said to be part of why alternative regulatory schemes are always quashed by amongst other things comparison to self-regulation. Which is held as a bogeyman for government oversight, which large corporations can control or parasitize without recourse by the public. See also: the FCC).

... This is a hugely political post I just made so I won't be replying to any responses, in hopes of avoiding derail.

How deep in the weeds do you have to go that your definition of fascism is "the collusion between corporations and the State"?

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The dictionary. It's literally the dictionary definition of fascism. It's literally what fascism is. Which is why a synonym for fascism is corporatism.

EDIT: It's like people haven't heard the phrase "third way". The "corporations" of corporatism aren't incorporated business entities. They're guilds, trade associations, and cartels. The things that the people running the incorporated businesses are the members and leadership of. It's because of things like Mussolini's Corporate Statism forcibly unionizing all factory workers that the idea of "national socialism" came into existence. That extreme government regulation of economy? That comes from the form of the economic leadership of the various industries being part and parcel of the Party. That's the collusion between corporations and the state.

"The definition of fascism is The marriage of corporation and state" - Benito Mussolini.

The corporations he was referring to are what we now call "industrial complexes". Which are in turn comprised of specific businesses.

 

[Aineko]

So yeah. While the end state of megacorps is "amok capitalism", the irony is that the only way you get to that point is by having a government for them to collude with.

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The word 'corporation' being a clue, since a corporation is a legal construct in the first place.

...Though at this point it might be the case that a lot of people think of incorporation as a natural law rather than a late invention.


Really in this sort of cyberpunk it's weird that the idea of incorporation itself survived. Limited liability hasn't got a lot of value to megacorps. Not sure about legal personhood of corporations either.

The dictionary. It's literally the dictionary definition of fascism. It's literally what fascism is.

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I can't find such a dictionary definition anywhere. I can find definitions that don't even use the word 'corporation' everywhere.

Certainly such collusion is at least often, maybe always seen. But it's not the identifying or defining feature.

 

[kaosisreality]

The dictionary. It's literally the dictionary definition of fascism. It's literally what fascism is. Which is why a synonym for fascism is corporatism.

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You have a special dictionary you use or something? Cause: fascism is "a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition." And that doesn't mention corporations or collusion at all.

 

[Aineko]

Which is why a synonym for fascism is corporatism.

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Did you even read that link at all? Because it both disagrees with this very sentence and specifically points out at some length that corporatism, contrary to a 'what it sounds like' analysis, does not mean collaboration between goverment and large businesses.

 

[catonfire]

You know the interior of each corporation (even outside cyberpunk) features command chains of people who aren't the owner, right?

And that these days in most cases of bigger businesses the CEO isn't even a major owner.

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The fact that the major "shareholders", "stockholders" or owners of corporations in the world are also elected (or appointed) to government positions? Sure millions of dollars and/or thier life savings has no effect on how they vote.

Edit: Wait! STOP! Threadlock incoming!

 

[Aineko]

The fact that the major "shareholders", "stockholders" or owners of corporations in the world are also elected (or appointed) to government positions? Sure millions of dollars and/or thier life savings has no effect on how they vote.

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I'm not sure what this means, but I'm pretty sure it is not a response to any part of what you quoted.

 

[catonfire]

I'm not sure what this means, but I'm pretty sure it is not a response to any part of what you quoted.

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My distinction in my original quote was referring to chains of command in government corrupting Capitalism, not specifically chains of command in the company. What causes Socialism and Communism to fail is they hand everything over to the government. When government IS the problem as all governments end up corrupt. Monopolies CAN NOT exist without government intervention, nor can too big to fail companies or landlords. Hey if you want your landlord to be the guys who can't keep a budget, have all the guns and make the laws be a Marxist.

 

[TheatrclBarristr]

Oh.

Oh No.

For those of you unfamiliar with what that means, prepare yourselves for a ride.

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Wtf? I stopped when he got to the bit about killing people for being gay.

 

[Aineko]

My distinction in my original quote was referring to chains of command in government corrupting Capitalism, not specifically chains of command in the company.

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Yes. I brought up that the chains of command in the company exist and aren't any more shielded from corruption than the ones in government.

Monopolies CAN NOT exist without government intervention, nor can too big to fail companies or landlords.

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I mean, not in a modern sense since property rights are a government intervention. On the other hand, the wealthy can and have procured their own organs of force when government ones neither provide them the service they want nor stop them from doing so.

 

[Nyvis]

My distinction in my original quote was referring to chains of command in government corrupting Capitalism, not specifically chains of command in the company. What causes Socialism and Communism to fail is they hand everything over to the government. When government IS the problem as all governments end up corrupt. Monopolies CAN NOT exist without government intervention, nor can too big to fail companies or landlords. Hey if you want your landlord to be the guys who can't keep a budget, have all the guns and make the laws be a Marxist.

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The capitalist markets themselves can't exist without a government. Trying to imagine capitalism "freed" from the government is a fool's errant because it can only exist as a system under a government enforcing its property norms and protecting the upper class from the consequences of their own actions.

Cyberpunk corps see this problem and become the government, or maintain hollow shell of governments to do the job for them while maintaining the pretense. But the power is the corp, and the entity pushing the corruption is the corp.

If you think corporations are fine and just need to be freed from government shackles, why are you even reading cyberpunk?

 

[Logos01]

If you think corporations are fine and just need to be freed from government shackles, why are you even reading cyberpunk?

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Unrelated diatribe: this right here is why I got so pissed off at the live-action Ghost in the Shell adaptation. Because they made it cyberpunk. Because GitS is the shining beacon on the hill example of what separates post-cyberpunk from cyberpunk: a healthy functioning government not controlled by the corporations where ordinary people can live decent lives with a background of a planetary ecology that's actually getting better, and told from the narrative perspective of government agents genuinely working towards the common good of the people while backed by competent bureaucrats supported by a legitimate democratically elected government.

And instead they turned it into "corrupt corporation fools plucky underdog into not realizing they control society, forcing underdog into lives of outlawry.". :-/

(Don't get me wrong. My love of GitS made me watch it anyhow. But I complained the whole time.)

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Thread relevance "tax":

Grams Astor getting Taylor her Oxford-backed medical diploma and related licensing is amusingly likely to throw off her intended timeline by a rather great deal. Like... what's Taylor-self's next move now that her primary extant Night City ambition has been resolved?

Does she risk getting back into the inventor game like she did previously, only with a different product? Or does she start delving deeper into cyberware design Tinkering while funding herself off of per diem surgical services to the various hospitals?

Now that I think about it, I don't actually know where Spira is planning to go with this plot-development. I mean, beyond further entanglement with the Astors.

 

[MossPiglet]

Grams Astor getting Taylor her Oxford-backed medical diploma and related licensing is amusingly likely to throw off her intended timeline by a rather great deal. Like... what's Taylor-self's next move now that her primary extant Night City ambition has been resolved?

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In many countries you still have to complete an internship after graduating with a MBSS to get your license as a medical practitioner, so I'm assuming that's next. It's probably a lot harder to convincingly fake an internship. And she can't fake a completed internship shortly after receiving her degree, because the timeline wouldn't match up, so it's more practical to just complete it legitimately. The two obvious possibilities are Trauma Team, because she already worked there and Skyline, because if she is going to learn something new from anyone it's Dr. Taylor.

There was some talk about potential conflict with Dr. Anno if she actually had a medical degree earlier in the story, which probably won't apply if she is just an intern and makes it clear that she'll work at her own clinic. I'm not sure if Skyline can offer internships at all, but seeing Dr. Taylor again would be nice.

Now that I think about it, I don't actually know where Spira is planning to go with this plot-development. I mean, beyond further entanglement with the Astors.

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With her contacts to BAE, the War probably coming to her Doorstep sooner or later, and her involvement in NC politics ( remember that she wrote a paper that got used by Rhyne to embarrass his opponents and she still owes a favor to that one professor) there is a lot of plot coming up for Taylor that we already know about.

 

[Logos01]

It's probably a lot harder to convincingly fake an internship. The two obvious possibilities are Trauma Team, because she already worked there and Skyline, because if she is going to learn something new from anyone it's Dr. Taylor.

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You're forgetting the Astor's influences with Militech. They already went to the extent of getting her a degree, why not be completionist and backdate an accredited apprenticeship with a friendly PMC?

This even does Taylor the supplemental service of in-filling her gap of missing time on databases.

the War probably coming to her Doorstep sooner or later,

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The BAE stuff feels like the entanglement to the Astors route to me, and this in particular feels like it's Harumi's plot thread if you will. She's already been drafted for medical services, and is selling military gear to NUSA mercs. It would feel redundant to have it spill over onto Taylor, too.

Could maybe see more advancement from Biotechnica peeps recognizing her gene tailoring signature in other work and making overtures on Granddaddy "Giovanni"'s behalf? That turtle-and-castling-princesses omake WAS inspired ..


(Responding here for thread consolidation, sorry)

Because the timeline wouldn't match up. People know that she's just now receiving her degree.

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That's why it would be accredited as an apprenticeship.

The idea being that an exemption to normal procedure would have been granted to allow her to have her apprentice hours applied to her residency hours despite not yet having a medical degree at the time. This would come across as nepotism but not as outright corruption. "She did do the work, she just did it in the wrong order."

There might even be actual law that could be applied to that sort of thing. It would hardly be surprising: I've heard of similar things in other professions.

What time is she missing? She went missing for 2 years and got a 6 year degree in that time, expecting her to also complete a year or more if internship in that timeframe stretches credulity.

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The time she went missing. She definitely wasn't at Oxford during that period, as the myriad tracking AIs would all notice if she were. Having worked as an apprentice physician in some Militech black op PMC overseas where network completion is spotty at best?

That justifies her competence and gives her a paperwork trail to patch over the gap with, AND justifies the nomination for degree-by-examination -- as a reward for "service above and beyond". Ties everything together neatly, gives Taylor a background implying she has Spooky Support You Aren't Cleared To Know About, and erases the stink of the missing time.

It also "definitely" assures anyone looking that she is not a British spy. Honest.

 

[MossPiglet]

You're forgetting the Astor's influences with Militech. They already went to the extent of getting her a degree, why not be completionist and backdate an accredited apprenticeship with a friendly PMC?

This even does Taylor the supplemental service of in-filling her gap of missing time on databases.

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Because the timeline wouldn't match up. People know that she's just now receiving her degree. Her degree is probably correctly dated from what we have seen of Sir Oxford Dean and his unwillingness to besmirch tue honour of Oxford, so if she has to wait a year or so until she could fake an internship, why should she fake it? If she gets a backdated degree Oxford would implicated in any medical malpractice she did before now. What time gap is there in her CV? She went missing for 2 years and got a 6 year degree in that time, expecting her to also complete a year or more of internship in that timeframe stretches credulity.

Edit:

That's why it would be accredited as an apprenticeship.

The idea being that an exemption to normal procedure would have been granted to allow her to have her apprentice hours applied to her residency hours despite not yet having a medical degree at the time. This would come across as nepotism but not as outright corruption. "She did do the work, she just did it in the wrong order."

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Oxford would be in big trouble if they gave a medical degree to someone who practiced medicine before getting licensed. I doubt that they made that count towards your residency instead of being illegal as hell. And getting people to believe that worked with an PMC that somehow does legal, medical apprenticeships and got a degree from Oxford in two years will be hard. If they wanted her to get her medical degree via apprenticeship, why even go through Oxford for a MBBS?

 

[Logos01]

Oxford would be in big trouble if they gave a medical degree to someone who practiced medicine before getting licensed.

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They wouldn't be certifying her residency history. Nor would they be issuing her medical license. They would only be responsible for the issuance of the degree, and since it's a degree-by-examination and they're not pulling any punches on the test regimen, their reputation is unilaterally secured, let alone any question of surface vectors for lawsuit vulnerability. They wouldn't even need to know about the timing of the residency/apprenticeship.

The idea here is that she would have been doing medical study and practice on an accelerated basis in a corporate blacksite. Oxford's degree-by-examination would be issued legitimately, with her nomination being part of some reward for [REDACTED].

Oxford wouldn't be on the hook for the legitimacy of the internship residency or the details therein. An MBBS is not a medical license, that's issued by the IMG (International Medical Group). THEY are the ones who would need to accept this pile of horse manure, and the idea is that Militech, NUSA, and British Crown agents would convey their desire for exceptions to be rendered in Taylor's favor (with those agents being in the Astor family pocket). And the IMG would only be approached after both degree and "residency" were completed, and simply asked "as a favor to our various institutions" to ignore the timeline mismatch.

This would of course stink to high heaven of black ops bullshit, but that's literally the point of the exercise: "What? Doctor Hebert has literally no data trail period for two years? And then the CIA and MI6 asked the IMG to certify her for a medical license? Are they even TRYING to hide her covert ops history? What the hell. This is just lazy. Like father like daughter I suppose." (And thus the gap ceases to be worth further investigation by anyone.)

 

[Lincolnator]

Wtf? I stopped when he got to the bit about killing people for being gay.

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He was memeing on them for being furries.
I'm into furry shit and I thought it was hilarious, calm down son.

It's a roleplaying game and he was griefing people in a game where half the point of playing it is to grief people while roleplaying.

Getting griefed and greifing in absurd and hilarious ways is basically the entire point of the game.

 

[MossPiglet]

They wouldn't be certifying her residency history. Nor would they be issuing her medical license. They would only be responsible for the issuance of the degree, and since it's a degree-by-examination and they're not pulling any punches on the test regimen, their reputation is unilaterally secured, let alone any question of surface vectors for lawsuit vulnerability.

The idea here is that she would have been doing medical study and practice on an accelerated basis in a corporate blacksite. Oxford's degree-by-examination would be issued legitimately, with her nomination being part of some reward for [REDACTED].

Oxford wouldn't be on the hook for the legitimacy of the internship residency or its legitimacy.

This would of course stink to high heaven of black ops bullshit, but that's literally the point of the exercise.

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I'm pretty sure that Oxford doesn't offer some kind of weird MBBS program that just requires you to show up to one examination legally. The Dean is pissed off that he is pressured into even giving her the time of the day. If that would be a possibility, why did they even clue him in that something weird is going on? The black ops apprenticeship will have to be faked anyways, otherwise we are back at step one.

And if Oxford issues the MBBS, they are on the hook. By definition, they are saying that she is qualified when they issue the degree. Why even involve them in this weird scheme?

 

[Ori]

let's stay on topic

If you really want to get this into the weeds I am going to ask you to take it to a seperate thread, and rerail this one.

 

[Logos01]

I'm pretty sure that Oxford doesn't offer some kind of weird MBBS program that just requires you to show up to one examination legally.

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The practice is called, literally, degree-by-examination. And while it is not in practice done by anyone, anywhere, beyond the most basic BA/BS degrees... It's entirely legal. This is a real thing.

So what's happening here is that the Dean was pressured by the Astors to give Taylor an MBBS and the Dean has chosen to use an obscure but legal practice that nobody's actually done in centuries for the kind of degree in question.

That degree however is still only a degree. It has absolutely nothing to do with the internship or residency requirements of the IMG's license issuing.

And as to the program being "weird"... to put this in context, getting degrees-by-examination for Associate's Degrees (2-year degrees before the Baccalaureate) is common practice enough that it's referred to by the brand-name of the online company that offers the exams: "clepping". So the only weirdness is that it's a ten day course of in person practical exams and that it's for an MBBS. But then... RHIP.

If that would be a possibility, why did they even clue him in that something weird is going on?

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All he knows is that Oxford is giving her a Baccalaureate of Medicine and Surgery. (An MBBS).

As far as he's concerned that's the start and end of it. Why would he be told anything more than this? He's not the IMG board member licensing her.

[INFORMATION="Let's stay on topic"]

If you really want to get this into the weeds I am going to ask you to take it to a seperate thread rerail this one.

[/INFORMATION]

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MEEP! Sorry, didn't see this. Roger, Willco.

 

[prussiangrandier]

do american universities still exist? yale, harvard, mit?

 

[Sole Purpose]

do american universities still exist? yale, harvard, mit?

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If they do, I doubt they have much credibility left, given the state of the NUSA...

 

[Andrensath]

If they do, I doubt they have much credibility left, given the state of the NUSA...

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Ivy League, Incorporated has hitmen on way to your location right now.

 

[Eastern Calculus]

... Taylor (EDIT: "Hasumi") should target another Sleep Inducer model for airplane lines. Let them reconfigure the economy class as sleeper coffins modules. I imagine that a single week after remodel and purchase would pay for itself for whichever airline made the decision.

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This just reminded me of the scene in The Fifth Element where a flight attendant knocks Bruce Willis out cold with a push of a button!

Found it:
View: https://youtu.be/UENRVfdnGxs?t=00m50s

 

[Logos01]

Ivy League, Incorporated has hitmen on way to your location right now.

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Obligatory reference:

Arasaka would like to know your location.

 

[amimai]

The practice is called, literally, degree-by-examination. And while it is not in practice done by anyone, anywhere, beyond the most basic BA/BS degrees... It's entirely legal. This is a real thing.

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Further on that: you can become a fully qualified lawyer via that route. It's less common nowadays, but it used to be a fairly popular method in the past for law degrees. Although in this case it requires an existing lawyer to vouch for you.