Shards of a Broken Sun [Deprecated; see link in final post for remake]

TehChron · Aug 13, 2014

Quickshot0 said:
My problem is that your criticism doesn't sound like it's handling the issues like it's a fallback plan. Instead you point out problems as if it is the main plan.

For instance the fall back plan would only really come in to play if you for instance can not get back.

Nah, that's an assumption as well. If the main plan backfires, the dimension collapses with it. Barring an outside force keeping the connection to the Amala Network open (assuming it even is that), Amu would likely not have time to backtrack before it collapses.

Thus I suggested the logical fallback plan I though of running forward, in to what seems the more stable portion of the system.

And I suggested it might not be the best option?

It sounds like your taking this all personally.

You say that this leaves no one to handle the Seal.

An assumption which was immediately after corrected by WoG.

I suggest you could throw Miki back, on the idea she's pretty smart and could handle that.

Assuming she can make it back safely without IPP protecting her from the forces of whatever dimension we're in at the moment, along with a whole number of other potential things that wouldnt be productive to go into right now.

At the end you then seem to reject the plan for being terrible and not focusing on the main objective. Which leaves me confused, as it's a fallback plan on what to do if you can not escape and it's only presumption is that doing this is better then falling in to the Void.

Main priority is survival and safe return of Fumi to normal space. Besides, what plan am I saying is terrible on that premise?

Im actually leaning strongly towards going with mastigos' option, it's more exciting than just waiting things out, and Ive also got a number of other things Im speculating at the moment that I could get answers to depending on how it turns out.

Thus... is this plan worse then falling in to the Void?

Well, I'd assume getting a shotgun blast to the face with her guard down would be better than falling into the Void at this stage.

That's hardly a qualifier, and its hardly a likelihood at this point. We're simply too close to the Vortex Worlds layer of reality for that to happen.

I don't mind further improving a fallback plan, but your criticism doesn't sound like you're trying to patch up a fallback plan to be less terrible. (As fallback plans tend to be, as otherwise they'd be the main plan) And instead sounds more like you are criticizing it as a main plan.

I'm criticizing it for being a bad plan. That has nothing to do with it being a "main" plan or a "fallback" plan.

Bad is bad, regardless of the context. You really do sound like you're taking this personally for whatever reason.

Sorry if I offended you.

Alectai · Aug 13, 2014

Baughn said:
I wouldn't be that mean. I said I'd roll dice, and I meant it; get a sufficient number of successes, and you'll succeed. Get a smaller-than-required but not too much smaller number, and you'll succeed partially.

The threshold here, by the way, is 8..

Threshold 8?

(Starts number crunching)

14 - 1 + 5....

18 dice versus difficulty 8.

It's about a 60% chance of fully succeeding, and closer to 70-80% chance of getting a partial success. Those are decent enough odds by my reckoning, if not as good as I might like. If we get a "Stunt Die" or two, that'll boost our odds further.

TehChron · Aug 13, 2014

Alectai said:
Threshold 8?

(Starts number crunching)

14 - 1 + 5....

18 dice versus difficulty 8.

It's about a 60% chance of fully succeeding, and closer to 70-80% chance of getting a partial success. Those are decent enough odds by my reckoning, if not as good as I might like.

Thoughts on doubling down on CRP as a fallback in case things don't go according to plan, then?

veekie · Aug 13, 2014

Alright, so far we got two conclusions:
1) We don't know enough about this place to make an informed decision. We need to gain information. This means Occult Excellency(channel Compassion? can't recall how many channels Amu has left) and Flawless Diagnosis Technique(takes 5 long ticks).
2) The only 'safe' place in this area is next to Fumi, and past the gateway. One means Amu might miss the demon army, leaving JPs to deal with the problem. The other might lose Fumi to become a hostile force.

So the ONLY certain actions to take at the moment that probably won't screw everything up. A stunted Occult Excellency, and run the diagnosis on Fumi and the space. If only so we can be sure if we can revive her safely so we have another brain working on the problem.

[X] Grab Fumi
-[X]Even as you dash madly across the tunnel and then back, use the Occult Excellency to transform your every motion into mnemonic keys for the analysis of this strange space you find yourself in. The forward lung of arms and the natural pan of the head grasp observations and data, while the slam of a feet against the ground drives that data deep into your memory and subconscious to be analyzed, and the thrusting lift as your body leaps off the ground entirely becomes the rising moment of conclusions and connections being assembled into a growing structure of understanding.
-[X] Use Flawless Diagnosis Technique on Fumi and the strange environment(if a valid target).

Quantumboost · Aug 13, 2014

Baughn said:
I wouldn't be that mean. I said I'd roll dice, and I meant it; get a sufficient number of successes, and you'll succeed. Get a smaller-than-required but not too much smaller number, and you'll succeed partially.

The threshold here, by the way, is 8.

So, going by the numbers, presuming it's an Intelligence+Occult roll and we don't channel a Virtue, if we dump all the motes we can on the First Occult Excellency, that gives us a roughly 25% chance of actual success. With about 15% chance each of 7, 6, 5, and 4 successes. And a little-over-5% chance of less than three.

With a Compassion channel and allthemotes, we get up to a 63% chance of complete victory, and 93% of 5 or more.

That's... fairly promising?

Alectai · Aug 13, 2014

Quantumboost said:
So, going by the numbers, presuming it's an Intelligence+Occult roll and we don't channel a Virtue, if we dump all the motes we can on the First Occult Excellency, that gives us a roughly 25% chance of actual success. With about 15% chance each of 7, 6, 5, and 4 successes. And a little-over-5% chance of less than three.

With a Compassion channel and allthemotes, we get up to a 63% chance of complete victory, and 93% of 5 or more.

That's... fairly promising?

It's good enough that it's worth trying, especially since that 63% chance of coming home with all the marbles is pretty tempting, and 5+ likely means we at least won't do any more damage.

Quickshot0 · Aug 13, 2014

TehChron said:
I'm criticizing it for being a bad plan. That has nothing to do with it being a "main" plan or a "fallback" plan.

Bad is bad, regardless of the context. You really do sound like you're taking this personally for whatever reason.

Sorry if I offended you.

No offence was taken at all. Though you don't seem to understand what I was complaining about, sigh.

And all suggestions were made based on others feedback including your own and what seemed to be the general opinion of the time. Seemingly you changed your mind in the meantime though, or else I misread it.

That the plan was bad was immaterial, because it was assumed less bad then the suggested alternate outcomes. (But seemingly that was misunderstood as well then?)

----

In the end the contexts between us don't seem to have matched, and probably still do not match.

Which is shown in this last matter;

Nah, that's an assumption as well. If the main plan backfires, the dimension collapses with it. Barring an outside force keeping the connection to the Amala Network open (assuming it even is that), Amu would likely not have time to backtrack before it collapses.

Comments like that ignore my original comments, where I argued the instability seemed to be non-symmetrical. And possible had a non-symmetrical basis to it. Considering that, I'm left to wonder if you properly read or understood my arguments at all.

--------------------
EDIT

I suppose it's not to important any more though, seems like people have already decided on some things.

mastigos · Aug 13, 2014

Alectai said:
It's good enough that it's worth trying, especially since that 63% chance of coming home with all the marbles is pretty tempting, and 5+ likely means we at least won't do any more damage.

How do the odds change if we channel Compassion? And maybe spend a willpower point

Also, we ... do have charas left in Vortex World, right? I forgot to verify that before planning on using them as a guide back

Giygas · Aug 13, 2014

mastigos said:
How do the odds change if we channel Compassion? And maybe spend a willpower point

Also, we ... do have charas left in Vortex World, right? I forgot to verify that before planning on using them as a guide back

The 63% chance already count Compassion as Channelled.

Baughn · Aug 13, 2014

mastigos said:
Also, we ... do have charas left in Vortex World, right? I forgot to verify that before planning on using them as a guide back

Ran and Su are off telling their mom that you'll be right back, yes.

TehChron · Aug 13, 2014

Quickshot0 said:
No offence was taken at all. Though you don't seem to understand what I was complaining about, sigh.

And all suggestions were made based on others feedback including your own and what seemed to be the general opinion of the time. Seemingly you changed your mind in the meantime though, or else I misread it.

Well, yes, I did. Im not particularly attached to any option except the best one at the moment. Is there something wrong with that? A bad idea is a bad idea, and a good one is a good one. Pursuit of excellence should be paramount, imo.

That the plan was bad was immaterial, because it was assumed less bad then the suggested alternate outcomes. (But seemingly that was misunderstood as well then?)

If it truly had been the Amala Network, we'd be on the outer edges of the Vortex World's reality. The Void would have been an issue, but given that we're not, and we're in some kind of weird pseudo-Domain, the Void isnt really a potential outcome.

In the end the contexts between us don't seem to have matched, and probably still do not match.

This is true. But I get what you're saying.

I just don't understand why you invest so much worth into it.

Which is shown in this last matter;

Comments like that ignore my original comments, where I argued the instability seemed to be non-symmetrical. And possible had a non-symmetrical basis to it. Considering that, I'm left to wonder if you properly read or understood my arguments at all.

Not really. Your assumption is based on the idea that your sense of distance is accurate, especially as dictated by the rules of IPP. That isnt the case here.

EDIT

I suppose it's not to important any more though, seems like people have already decided on some things.

Honestly, it never really was important to begin with. Ideas should be thrown at random, trying to see if you can find one that sticks. Sometimes the throws are more directed, and sometimes youve got to choose between ones that stick, and sometimes youve got to make due with the fact that none of them stick at all.

All that matters is finding one that can, and will, work for the best possible result.

mastigos · Aug 13, 2014

Baughn said:
Ran and Su are off telling their mom that you'll be right back, yes.

Yay, guilt

TehChron · Aug 13, 2014

mastigos said:
Yay, guilt

she only needs to feel guilty if she doesnt manage to keep her promise!

Quantumboost · Aug 13, 2014

mastigos said:
How do the odds change if we channel Compassion? And maybe spend a willpower point

First, spending Willpower is part and parcel of channeling a Virtue, you can't spend yet another Willpower.

Second, given the 5 here:

Alectai said:
Threshold 8?

(Starts number crunching)

14 - 1 + 5....

And my own numbers, I'm fairly certain that Alectai is taking us channeling Compassion on this as a given for those figures.

TehChron · Aug 13, 2014

Hey Baughn, when you say "Backup Plan" Do you mean stunting for this action, or a plan of action for what we'll do should this roll fail for us?

Quickshot0 · Aug 13, 2014

TehChron said:
Well, yes, I did. Im not particularly attached to any option except the best one at the moment. Is there something wrong with that? A bad idea is a bad idea, and a good one is a good one. Pursuit of excellence should be paramount, imo.

You asked for a fallback plan, so I started creating one. It's hardly my fault if you then later with out telling me gave up on that. I was just running along the previous request line. And obviously I would reject any mainline arguments against it then, because that wasn't the request. (In case you're wondering why I reject your best options arguments constantly)

The highest excellence as such didn't interest me much, because those obviously already failed if you got to that point that the fallback was needed. They're more a consideration of what kind of desperation moves are still left to try.

I just don't understand why you invest so much worth into it.

As stated above, because you originally requested it. Because it seemed like a good idea to consider an alternative in case everything went wrong again. And because I don't like something with valid logic with in the limitations it was meant to be used on, being dismissed via basically invalid logic.

I'm not sure why it's even was an issue I kept poking at it. Is considering major failure not a good idea suddenly?

Not really. Your assumption is based on the idea that your sense of distance is accurate, especially as dictated by the rules of IPP. That isnt the case here.

So basically you don't remember my argument and confused it for someone elses. I myself never argued the IPP, but instead used what was actually observed and what made sense with in previously stated settings limitations. (I don't feel like restating again at the moment what I actually did say)

Thus you are simply completely off base on what my assumptions even are.

Honestly, it never really was important to begin with. Ideas should be thrown at random, trying to see if you can find one that sticks. Sometimes the throws are more directed, and sometimes youve got to choose between ones that stick, and sometimes youve got to make due with the fact that none of them stick at all.

All that matters is finding one that can, and will, work for the best possible result.

Of course, most of my suggestions are like that. This was just an exception in that it was ideas thrown around with in the contextual constraints of a fallback plan, in case the main plan failed. And thus as I said before, I continued to reject incorrect logic that doesn't apply to it.

It's not like I necessary expected it to be used. (More like probably not, unless things went totally to plaz, and then people would be thankful some one actually put a bit of thought in to it) But some times knowing what fallback options might still exist can inform what kind of risks are still acceptable in the main plan.

So it's kind of annoying when ideas with in that group gets rejected on the basis of not being main plan worthy. Which really kind of missed the point.

Giygas · Aug 13, 2014

I was going to ask how much time it would have taken to bump our occult to 5, but then i remembered that with the exaltation Offline we cannot do the rapid training.

Or occult is special because it was amu's favored ability since before being exalted?

TehChron · Aug 13, 2014

Quickshot0 said:
You asked for a fallback plan, so I started creating one. It's hardly my fault if you then later with out telling me gave up on that. I was just running along the previous request line. And obviously I would reject any mainline arguments against it then, because that wasn't the request. (In case you're wondering why I reject your best options arguments constantly)

So?

The highest excellence as such didn't interest me much, because those obviously already failed if you got to that point that the fallback was needed. They're more a consideration of what kind of desperation moves are still left to try.

...?

That line of thought makes no sense. Desperation breeds failure, fallbacks are about making the best out of a bad situation, under controlled circumstances, predicting what can go wrong can be done to a degree. Therefore, insulation against risk is possible.

That is what a fallback plan is for. Preparing a potential failure into a future success.

As stated above, because you originally requested it. Because it seemed like a good idea to consider an alternative in case everything went wrong again. And because I don't like something with valid logic with in the limitations it was meant to be used on, being dismissed via basically invalid logic.

Weeell, that's great, but then why am I the one criticizing your arguments?

By that line of reasoning, you should be beating me to the punch.

I'm not sure why it's even was an issue I kept poking at it. Is considering major failure not a good idea suddenly?

What?

So basically you don't remember my argument and confused it for someone elses. I myself never argued the IPP, but instead used what was actually observed and what made sense with in previously stated settings limitations. (I don't feel like restating again at the moment what I actually did say)

Then you probably should in order to clear up misconceptions.

I mean, considering you keep on bringing this stuff up, it's the least you could do.

Thus you are simply completely off base on what my assumptions even are.

As long as theyre not correct, does it even matter?

Of course, most of my suggestions are like that. This was just an exception in that it was ideas thrown around with in the contextual constraints of a fallback plan, in case the main plan failed. And thus as I said before, I continued to reject incorrect logic that doesn't apply to it.

Then move on and come up with a new approach. I just dont see why youre so attached to this one, it's not like it has any inherent redeeming qualities to it.

It's not like I necessary expected it to be used. (More like probably not, unless things went totally to plaz, and then people would be thankful some one actually put a bit of thought in to it) But some times knowing what fallback options might still exist can inform what kind of risks are still acceptable in the main plan.

Well, yeah, that's why someone threw out potentially trying to use antiobiotics on the stuff making up the dimension.

Throw out as many ideas as possible, and see what sticks.

So it's kind of annoying when ideas with in that group gets rejected on the basis of not being main plan worthy. Which really kind of missed the point.

Its not about them being "worthy" or not, but about them having flaws.

Whats wrong with pointing out flaws in a bad idea so we can move on to considering better ones?

Quickshot0 · Aug 13, 2014

TehChron said:
Then you probably should in order to clear up misconceptions.

I mean, considering you keep on bringing this stuff up, it's the least you could do.

Or you could have backtracked and looked it up yourself, it's the least one could do after all in a debate, right?

Still, it's not really something to discuss here further like this, we're just chocking everything else. And I'm not sure it's further worth the time of msg either, it's not like I had any luck getting my point over up till now after all, so it feels like it would take awhile.

Baughn · Aug 13, 2014

Quickshot, TehChron: Drop it, please. This discussion has gone on for long enough; try to keep it productive.

Horrifyingly bad ideas are part of my entertainment, you know?

Baughn · Aug 13, 2014

Giygas said:
I was going to ask how much time it would have taken to bump our occult to 5, but then i remembered that with the exaltation Offline we cannot do the rapid training.

Or occult is special because it was amu's favored ability since before being exalted?

Occult isn't special, but even if it were, it'd still take about an hour. For anything that has training time "instant" in the manual, you can read that as "one hour". (Though that can be stunted downwards, usually at a cost.)

Oh, and it's too late to write now, so you'll have another.. 21 hours or so, I guess; D&D tomorrow.

TehChron · Aug 13, 2014

Baughn said:
Quickshot, TehChron: Drop it, please. This discussion has gone on for long enough; try to keep it productive.

Horrifyingly bad ideas are part of my entertainment, you know?

Fair point.

I just hate not having the last word, lol

ω₁ · Aug 13, 2014

As far as fallback plans go, I think heading the other direction (into what might be the Amala Network) is a potentially apocalyptically bad one: it's far too plausible that Amu's presence there will destabilize the entire network in much the same fashion that it appears to have done to the tunnel.

Which, in hindsight, is only logical. The Amala Network is a magatsuhi-transfer network; unlike all purely native life, Amu is in large part no longer made of magatsuhi, and therefore the Amala Network (and the similar temporary construct that is this tunnel) simply can't handle her. Fumi, on the other hand, is made of magatsuhi, so the environment of the tunnel probably poses her no danger. (Or at least it normally wouldn't. At the moment, all bets are off.)

Also, I doubt this tunnel is actually connected to the Amala Network proper anyway. It's probably just a nonce-construct based on the same fundamental principles that Botis is using for fast transport.

At any rate, this suggests a very slightly improved plan (same basic idea, just with more fluff for stunting) and a much better fallback plan. What we need to do in order to not collapse the tunnel is to splice the hackjob CRP in with IPP, in such a way that IPP is responsible for keeping our Essential nature intact, while CRP "provides an Essence-magatsuhi interface" -- which (argh) we don't really know how to do, so we'll fake it by locally "imposing K-physics" (which is a type of magatsuhi physics, and so shouldn't be destructive to the tunnel), and simply correct for the Essence-induced deviations in what the pseudo-Amala construct expects in the same way K-physics handles leaks induced by the magatsuhi layer.

The Dragon seal and Dragon-CRP ("Kagutsuchi-Mimicking Pattern"?) is obviously capable of safely handling those K-physics violations, because if they weren't, Amu would be tearing the universe apart every time she took a breath.

If the gate closes before we can reach it and all stability is lost, I'd much prefer:
- [f] Keep CRP (either original or kagutsuchi-flavor) active as we fall into the Void (or whatever) with Fumi.
- [f] Spend a couple of hours quick-learning charms-to-be-determined (e.g., a hacked-together magatsuhi-manipulating version of Wyld-Shaping Technique, or possibly just some Athletics charms to run home with, depending on where we end up).

Unrelatedly, can someone link me directly to the current character sheet? The link in the first post doesn't work unless you have a Google account, and I'd really rather not have to go through the hassle.

TehChron · Aug 13, 2014

ω₁ said:
Unrelatedly, can someone link me directly to the current character sheet? The link in the first post doesn't work unless you have a Google account, and I'd really rather not have to go through the hassle.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1snF_yu70-9GzR2_EO1HnG7fcZiEr0nx5sukAfMvggjM/edit#

Here you go

Quickshot0 · Aug 13, 2014

ω₁ said:
snip

That sounds pretty smart, and it's a good point that you can't trust on IPP not potentially being dangerous further in as well. Hopefully Exa-kun work will help figure some of this out in the future.

Shards of a Broken Sun [Deprecated; see link in final post for remake]

Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion

Now with 50% more dots in Dimensional Science

Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion

Cutest Sawk i could find. Lucario is a nice extra.

Healing-type writer

Now with 50% more dots in Dimensional Science

Cutest Sawk i could find. Lucario is a nice extra.

Healing-type writer

Healing-type writer

The Long Count