Shards of a Broken Sun [Deprecated; see link in final post for remake]

Reminder, experiments involving personas lead to bad shit.
Has it been tried while following experimental ethics and reasonable safety precautions? A lot of the time, Bad Shittm​ resulting from experiments in fiction is because of not having those rather than the subject matter being inherently impossible to experiment on safely.
 
Has it been tried while following experimental ethics and reasonable safety precautions? A lot of the time, Bad Shittm​ resulting from experiments in fiction is because of not having those rather than the subject matter being inherently impossible to experiment on safely.
Usually with reasonable precautions to the knowledge of the researchers. The issue is that they behave like they are dealing with static rule based phenomenon, not intelligent reactive forces that will change based on context.

I.e. they set physicists to do metaphysics when they should have set psychologists.
 
Update update: I've been stuck doing some necessary maintenance work up here at the cottage, but I'm about 50% through the recap episode? Maybe? It's easy to write, at least.

The timeline will have to go a little wonky until you're caught up to it... well, I mentioned that before.

Well, yes. He is, in a word, the human concept/want of/desire for self-destruction. It's why we've been so careful in dealing with the shards of him that show up to us, the thing is though... That's actually kind of what we're looking to do long term.
He's a lot of things, one of them being the desire for self-destruction... it should be no surprise if I point out that that's really Nyx, though.

And I don't think getting rid of Nyarlathotep is good for humanity anyway. He's the embodiment of our self-harming and self-destructive tendencies as a species, the darker side of human nature, but it's in wrestling with this darker side and winning that we evolve as individuals and as each individual evolves so too does the whole of Humanity.
On the flip side, humanity can do exactly that right now with no metaphysical entities stirring the pot at all. The existence of humanity, per se, does not depend on the existence of a collective unconscious.

Can you have a CU without Nyarlathotep? Well, that would be telling.
Because a large part of him wants to, and takes active action towards, killing everyone? It seems like there should be some way to prevent those parts of humanity from physically manifesting and invading reality, without actually removing them. Or we could free humanity from Kagutsuchi's prison, whatever that means in practice, which should help if Nyarly's statements are anything to go by.
*giggle*
Just because he asked to not exist anymore doesn't mean getting rid of him is a good idea. He's Nyarlathotep. He's as much of a trickster and a troll as The Ebon Dragon, and that's the sort of thing I expect TED might ask an Exalt to do if he though it would definitely fuck everyone else over more than inexistence would fuck him over, and if he thought the Exalt were stupid enough to fall for it.
He's supposed to be hard to figure out, but don't think that everything he tries is necessarily bad just because he's the one trying it. For one thing, if that were the case then he'd be predictable.

Word of god, there are ways to discard him that wouldn't be harmful to humanity. Other word of god: The one I'm thinking of right now wouldn't be the best possible ending, either.
@Baughn since you're restarting this and all, I think it's worth pointing out my biggest problem with the way the quest was previously written: it assumes the quest-players know and have a good understanding of four separate franchises, without really making any concession to those who don't. Even with wiki-walking the Shugo-Chara stuff, for instance, is a maze of tangled references and half finished thoughts.

I'm certainly not advocating general re-writes or dumbing things down, just ... requesting that when you write a chapter you examine it through the lens of "what does this mean to someone who has never heard of Exalted/Shugo-Chara/SMT/Black Rock Shooter before this quest?"
This, however, is an excellent point. I will be attempting to do that, though ideally without infodumps. Mostly I need to make sure everyone knows what the viewpoint characters are supposed to know.

Which is frequently difficult to decide, from my perspective. Do you want to be a beta-reader? I could probably use one.
Usually with reasonable precautions to the knowledge of the researchers. The issue is that they behave like they are dealing with static rule based phenomenon, not intelligent reactive forces that will change based on context.

I.e. they set physicists to do metaphysics when they should have set psychologists.
Neither one would work...


As for the previous page's quarrel, try to be nice. And remember to account for fundamental attribution error.
 
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People who do purse owner science also have a horrible habit of doing super unethical experiments on children. And also innocent robots.

Nyx isn't really a part of humanity. She's a straight up alien. Erebus is the collective wish to die, and that's why Minato became the seal. To prevent Erebus reaching Nyx. Because Nyx would answer Erebus with an obligational okay and kill us all. She's a nice alien that way.
 
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From the wiki

n the Persona 3 Club Book, in a Q&A section it is stated that Nyx is in fact a living being outside reality the size of a celestial body known as "the Star Eater", that drifted space in a dormant state. Eventually, this being collided with the Earth, and ended up entering Earth's orbit becoming its moon, but leaving its psyche on the surface. This "wave-like psyche" stood a contradiction to the already existing life on earth, which was still at a very primitive state. In order to resist this contradiction, the life forms in Earth had a period of evolution and developed a collective subconsciousness in which the life forms locked away the psyche of Nyx by suppressing its psyche with their own thoughts. Nyx's physical body entered a healing process after the colliding with the Earth from within Earth's moon. By the timePersona 3 takes place, that process was just about done. The Fall is the process in which Nyx's psyche re-enters its physical body, giving Nyx back its original form, meaning a paradox for life on earth, and thus the end of the world.

The guidebook also makes a quick mention of the Great Will (a recurring power in the main series), stating that Gods and Demons emerge from humans as another mean to defend their psyche from Nyx.

Nyx was briefly mentioned in the playable epilogue of Persona 3 FES, The Answer. It is later revealed that Nyx herself is neither hostile nor malevolent, she was awakened from the sorrow, depression, and apathy of humankind, believing that humans were tired of living and thus, her duty to end their lives. Upon returning to the time where the protagonist seals Nyx, it is revealed that the protagonist is not planning to seal Nyx away from humanity, but Erebus, a manifestation of humanity's negative will and grief from contacting her to bring the Fall.
 
Souls and Primordials
But the major failures we've seen stemmed from assuming their reaction ability to be on the level of dumb forces?

Just that treating them as dumb forces tends to produce more dramatic failure states.
They stem from treating it as something other than what it is, but also from lacking the ability to build suitable containment vessels. Any time you experiment on the collective unconscious, you're experimenting on yourself; it is practically impossible for human researchers to do this safely. That being said, there's "potentially unsafe" and then there's... things that turn into plot elements.


Update on the update:

It's basically complete. It's also the size of a book, and I need to cut it down to size. Still, if everything goes well I'll pass it on to a happy beta-reader this weekend, prior to Ophelia. If it takes more time... at some point I'm going to put a foot down and accept that you'll just have to read all thirty thousand words of it.

Meanwhile I've been reading Kerisgame, which gave me some interesting thoughts. Specifically, Amu. I've mentioned most of this before, but perhaps I've never put it together in an easy-to-understand fashion...

Amu is not a Primordial, or an Infernal, and although the origin of her exaltation shard matters -- the previous holder was a Slayer-caste Infernal, after all -- it isn't going to taint her in any fashion. I don't feel like doing that would be fair, given you had no choice in the matter. Amu's exaltation shard is Solar, and although it's damaged in some ways, she's closer to a pre-Primordial War solar exalt than any other kind. Including her overall situation, actually.

Amu's sister-souls aren't like third-circles. Unquestionables, whatever you'd like to call them--they're reflections of particular aspects of their greater self, and limited to being those reflections. There are things a third-circle demon can think that the Primordial can't, and vice-versa, because the Primordial never wanted to become that third-circle and didn't attempt to create a reflection of their entire self -- whereas, in the case of Ran, Miki and Su, all three can be described as "Amu, but more."

They didn't originally have souls; or alternately, you could describe them as part of Amu's, in much the same way that Adorjan's winds were parts of Adorjan. I shan't comment on Ran and Su, but Miki now unquestionably does. None of them are limited to being merely what Amu wanted, though the same cannot be said for Iru and Eru. Much of Dia's confusion stems from that, and the main reason they're acting the way they do now is that Amu decided they're siblings-slash-friends. This had much the same result in canon, it just took longer.

Amu's own soul is far closer to that of a proto-Primordial than the calcified, pattern-cast and fundamentally limited souls of Creation's mortals. Kagutsuchi's hold is what previously stopped her from growing, but that was by way of brute force, not the subtler machinations of the Primordials. Amu herself is vaguely aware of this, but hasn't really thought it through. That is not to say she's a Primordial, again; whatever the mechanics, mentally speaking she's human, and will remain so. She's part of humanity, and barring a concerted effort to change that, it won't change.



Funny thing is, even just going by Shugo Chara canon, Amu is a ridiculously powerful psionic. Not as powerful as Utau, whom she can only defeat with the help of an artifact while the latter is distraught and heartbroken, but easily enough to be a true terror. While her most immediately impressive feat might be telekinetically-powered flight, some of the mental rewrites she performs are on the level of at least low-level SWLIHN charms.

That's all late-canon, of course, and she isn't capable of doing it yet, but the potential remains. While working through her connection to the collective unconscious is always going to be more efficient than physical means, there's no fundamental reason she couldn't pull off protagonist-level sorcery if she trained for it. SMT-style sorcery, that is.
 
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It's basically complete. It's also the size of a book, and I need to cut it down to size. Still, if everything goes well I'll pass it on to a happy beta-reader this weekend, prior to Ophelia. If it takes more time... at some point I'm going to put a foot down and accept that you'll just have to read all thirty thousand words of it.
Oh nice, I had to find something else to be hyped about with Plains of Eidolon being released yesterday and Episode Ignis stil two months away.

[HYPE INTENSIFIES]

It's, uh, a recap. You've read it all before. -_-;
On the one hand, it's just a recap. On the other hand, it's still more content. On the third hand I got from Wyld mutation, it heralds more updates in the future.

[HYPE INTENSIFICATION RATE REMAINS STEADY]
 
Amu's own soul is far closer to that of a proto-Primordial than the calcified, pattern-cast and fundamentally limited souls of Creation's mortals. Kagutsuchi's hold is what previously stopped her from growing, but that was by way of brute force, not the subtler machinations of the Primordials. Amu herself is vaguely aware of this, but hasn't really thought it through. That is not to say she's a Primordial, again; whatever the mechanics, mentally speaking she's human, and will remain so. She's part of humanity, and barring a concerted effort to change that, it won't change.
Am I right in thinking that humanities trans-human history is relevant here? Human can be a very broad term, at least to some people.
 
I'm pretty sure the collective unconscious is more than just humanity. Every living thing on Earth is a part of it due to Nyx doing Nyx things, it's just that humans have the strongest influence.

Otherwise we wouldn't have Koromaru or Shrine Fox! Yip yap~ gimmie yens
 
Oh no

Is Nyx dead for perma now!? ALIEN MUM NOOOOO! But if she is then we don't need to worry about Erebus reaching her which could mean that Minato is being coddled by Nurse Lizzy in the Velvet Room rn, recovering from the biggest imaginary DANce party ever. Or we might be in the Minako parallel. That would be swell. I love Soul Phrase.

Q and DAN and the fighting games are all canon, but I'm not sure if half of them even existed when this was first launched...




BEST PERSONA MOM

Edit, I just spent four hours of my life binging the ask persona blog. It was amazing.
 
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This post reserved for future use.

I don't think there's much point in sitting on the already-betaed parts of the recap... especially in this case, given that Phase 1 is — well, you'll see in a minute. Can't promise when the the second will be out, given that it's much longer (and actually a recap), but here's something to chew on in the meantime.
 
This post reserved for future use.

I don't think there's much point in sitting on the already-betaed parts of the recap... especially in this case, given that Phase 1 is — well, you'll see in a minute. Can't promise when the the second will be out, given that it's much longer (and actually a recap), but here's something to chew on in the meantime.
As always lookin forward to it
 
Recap Phase 1: Rindler / Schild's Ladder
Phase 1: Rindler / Schild's Ladder

The universe was wide and open, with too many inhabited planets for anyone to ever see. Even should you visit one each minute—to what degree you could visit anything in merely a minute—you'd find they were being colonised almost faster than you could get to them. Still, there were some places everyone wanted to drop by.

Earth was one of them. The Rindler, for a very different reason, was another.

"Freeeeeee-dom!" Liliana bounced across the phase space of her 'scape, quickly upshifting from ten dimensions to a hundred, then a thousand, then enough that she stopped being aware of them as directions, instead seeing them as the gestalt properties they were. She stopped existing at just a single location, her mind taking a dozen branches both ways so she could explore the entirety of the Rindler all at once.

Her exoself gamely kept track, transmitting what it saw as her maximally probable location to her brother's, until they mutually gave up and rendered her as a fog filling up the station. Nina, well familiar with his sister's antics, merely shook his head.

Their father remained a greyed-out statue, and would for another fifteen minutes at the thousand-to-one time acceleration that was standard in the Rindler.

"—neener neener." Liliana coalesced for just long enough to stick her tongue out at their father, then disappeared on him again.

She could be really immature, he thought.

"I'm sure the place hasn't changed that much," he pragmatically told the air. "We were only eight light-months away, we're only sixteen months out of date. So are you going to stop bouncing around and help me with this prank, or what?"

"But it's neat! They did it! They actually did it!"

Liliana grabbed hold of his inputs for a second, twisting him around to face the novo-vacuum's surface, then wavered into existence in front of him with a wide smile on her face.

"Very impressive, but…"

Machinery stretching for light-seconds in every direction. Visible machinery, macroscopic machinery, machinery keeping pace with the surface and obviously not brought here by rocket. The meta tags told him there were multiple solar systems' worth of mass.

"Ninaaaa~"

Another poke at his exoself, automatic acceptance, and this time his consciousness was delicately prodded towards a particular set of those tags, carrying a library reference. He lost himself in them for half a second, fascinated despite himself at what they contained.

"A mixture of far-side physics, direct Sarumpaet translation and Kagutsuchian emulation?"

"Mm-hmm." Liliana grinned. "And that's just what they did to test the theory. Imagine what it's like further in! I'm so glad we came."

"I could tell." He smiled, taking any sting out of the words.

"…what's that?"

Liliana pointed at a speck of darkness spreading across the surface, where the normal border-light had fallen off by a factor of, as far as the station's sensors could tell, infinity. She narrowed her eyes uncertainly—well, that was how Nina's exoself chose to portray her uncertainty, his sister didn't usually bother having a body—then blurred away to check the library, and—in Nina's eyes—shrugged when it failed to yield answers.

"Censoring, right?"

"Mm. Probably," she agreed. "I guess we'll find out when we go. I'd ask someone, but—"

"You'd make a nuisance of yourself, and Dad will be awake in ten minutes." Nina gave the spreading black spot a final glance, then looked away. "I'm sure this is just someone's idea of a surprise. Which isn't an excuse at all for forgetting the plan—let's get a move on! What do you think, can we be twins this time?"

"We already are, you hair-brained lump of historical references." Liliana grinned, his exoself's translation of her broadcasted 'no hard feelings, I'm just teasing' metadata. "But, sure. Open sesame?"

Ten minutes later, when their father woke up, it was to the bemusing sight of two perfectly identical—and identical-acting—twelve year old agender children. His initial, casual attempt at resolving the confusion by checking their personal IDs, was foiled by both of them echoing the same one.

This was nothing special. The citizens of Earth had always been more liberal than average, and they'd subjected him to this 'prank' at practically every stop-over since leaving the doomed planet. By now, he wasn't sure if even they remembered who was who.

It wasn't until hours later that the twins split up again, if not along quite the same fracture lines as before.



Kusnanto Sarumpaet had lived on Earth at the turn of the third millennium, when a group of physicists and mathematicians—now universally known as the Sultans of Spin—had produced the first viable theory unifying gravity and quantum mechanics, spin network physics, a theory of physics where geometry was generalised based on the quantum-mechanical path each particle took through space.

Sarumpaet had generalised and simplified that theory, removing the notion of space and replacing it with a graph—an abstract, quantum-mechanical system of nodes and connections—that did nothing but connect. This theory had been exceedingly successful, and by the time it was fully developed it had accomplished the never-before known feat of explaining absolutely everything there was to explain about fundamental physics.

Sarumpaet's physics was a true theory of everything, leaving no room for magic. The universe had once begun, with a low-entropy, flat graph that enforced the direction of time, and some day the universe would end, in darkness and heat death. In between, creation: Nucleosynthesis, black holes, stars, galaxies and life—though humanity had never discovered aliens smarter than fungus.

In a way, it was the end of an era. In another, it was the start of something new, and humanity took their role as caretakers of the cosmos with a certainty and carefulness that would have astonished visitors from the far off pre-industrial societies of the second millennium. Despite a few close calls, they even did so without losing their humanity.

And then, at the edge of the fifth millennium, the Sarumpaet rules faced their most stringent test to date. A machine the size of a nation, built over multiple centuries in the midst of interstellar space; an isolation chamber so complete, the walls incorporated black holes for the purpose of cancelling out gravity waves. The Quietener, created to recreate the Sarumpaet rules' most perfect, idealised form, purely for the purpose of research.

They used it to test a degenerate case: an alternate possibility for physics, a theoretical universe that—even should it have existed—would have decayed in a fraction of a second to become the one they lived in.

It was simply a pity they were wrong.

That, however, wasn't the end. Although many forms of vacuum collapse would have flashed through the vacuum at light-speed, their own universe—nearly stable—merely succumbed to the novo-vacuum at half that rate, giving time for evacuation. Had that been otherwise, then no-one would ever have seen their end coming.

The Rindler was originally a research station, built at the edge of the novo-vacuum with the resources of multiple star systems, all of them destroyed before it was finished. It kept pace with its expanding surface, it supported the researchers striving to stop it, and eventually it became the cornerstone of an effort to colonise it.

The universe they were from was inhospitable, permitting no means of cheating lightspeed and coming with a built-in expiration date; they hoped the one they'd created would be better. Certainly, it was far more efficient—time ran at a million times the speed, inside, and thought was proportionally cheaper—but there were hints that conservation of information itself might not be inescapable.

In any case it was populated, which rendered the notion of destroying it unthinkable.

Not since the late 22nd century had anyone died involuntarily in human space.
 
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