Shards of a Broken Sun [Deprecated; see link in final post for remake]

TehChron said:
Well, it's not like you bothered to do any research on SMT?

I mean, is it really so hard for you to give me some directions on where to find some .pdfs with the rulesets or relevant things I should be looking for?

Flying blind.
Well, I dunno about robotninja, but I happen to own and have played Nocturne...
TehChron said:
I'm not sure where you're getting my smugness from...?

I'm being serious. It's pretty clear that I know next to nothing about the system except from what I could glean from the game itself.

It's not like you being helpful in providing specifics is going to hurt anyone. Again, just need to look at my tl;drs regarding SMT canon for how to do that without...making it too easy for me?

Spoilers?

I really don't see what's so difficult with just leaving me a link to the most directly relevant material. You're really coming across as frustrated about this whole discussion, so it'll probably be for the best if you just leave me tools to do my own research with so I can be on my way.
The big issue with this is that, as 3ed is about to come out, they've taken down the official wiki and, um, haven't put a new one up yet. As a law abiding member of spacebattles, I would never suggest that you go google something like 'Exalted Core PDF' or something.
 
Happerry said:
Well, I dunno about robotninja, but I happen to own and have played Nocturne...


The big issue with this is that, as 3ed is about to come out, they've taken down the official wiki and, um, haven't put a new one up yet. As a law abiding member of spacebattles, I would never suggest that you go google something like 'Exalted Core PDF' or something.
that sounds indeed like something a law abiding member would never do

thanks for obeying the laws, citizen
 
Grosstoad said:
Err, that is not good, unless the QM stated that he/she is fine with such discussion.

Also, the discussion is steadily slipping head first into VS. Debate of the systems, which might be mod-attention worthy, instead of being on topic of an Exalted Amu in SMT land, wat do.
And now its not

Besides, it sounds like Null-Abrsb-Reflect are close enough analogies to perfect defenses that we at least have some basis to work around with
 
TehChron said:
Well, thats easy enough to grasp

Sounds a lot like how a ton of beings in SMT have the ability to null, absorb, or reflect a certain type of damage without limitation.

Actually, by that standard, Metatron, in most of his forms, has perfect passive defenses to nearly every kind of attack as is.
Actually, this is a pretty good comparison.

A perfect is a lot like a Null type defense, only instead of being 'Null : (Some Element)', it's 'Null : (The attack it was used to defend against)'.

So under that comparison, you could pull out 'Null : Imploding Universe' if someone tried to implode the universe on you, but if they did something else it'd become a null for that something else instead.

Or in the case of the whole universal reset that just happened, we pulled on 'Null : Being erased from reality' when Kagatsuchi tried to directly erase us from reality, but that didn't prevent us from running out of mana and starting to cast from hit points to keep the seal working.

They aren't exactly alike, but this is probably the easiest way for someone who only knows SMT to think of it.
 
*sigh*, okay, stepping in here, and I'll probably regret it.
TehChron said:
Then, if I may ask, before the helpful explanations you received in this thread, did you have working knowledge of SMT?

serious question.

Happerry, I'm simply saying that a defense with negative consequences is, by definition, imperfect.

You're the one that threw out about not knowing what a "perfect defense" was, so I pointed out what's obvious.

No need to get petty just because you're feeling defensive about your favored fiction.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse.php?filters=0_0_1820_0_0&manufacturers_id=1
There. Link to all the PDF versions of the Exalted Second Edition Books. The one you want is, as you might imagine, Exalted Second Edition.

What a Perfect effect does is get "enough" success, regardless of how much success is needed (so long as the action applies). That's exactly and all that it means. A Perfect dodge will always dodge 'enough' to avoid something, a Perfect attack will always hit. There's rules for how this resolves when multiple Perfect effects conflict, but that's minutae here.

Solar Perfect Dodges/Parries/ also have a property called 'applicability-trumping', which means that you can't make them unable to dodge by, say, chaining them to an anchor or paralyzing them or whatever, and you can't make them unable to parry by using something that's orders of magnitude more powerful than what the thing they're parrying with can take. This is the biggest reason why Solar defenses are considered so hax. Heavenly Guardian Defense if it worked as designed could parry the detonation of a 'multiverse' (I begin to hate that term) of energy with aforementioned salad fork, this is what the Charm does. It would deflect 'enough' energy, and the salad fork would be destroyed, and Amu would take no damage from the attack.

Whether it works as designed? ...well. You have to start somewhere.

EXALTED-FAMILIAR PLAYERS.

This is not merely not set in Creation, it is not set in anywhere compatible with Creation. By the heirarchical chart Baughn provided early on, there are no Shinma nor true Essence; the Exaltation is basically kludging together a bunch of workarounds that work mostly because it's a super-adaptable superweapon made by the King of Craftsmen himself.

Miracle Shells would have no reason to be able to affect SMT-verse from Creation since the Shinma (including Nirupadhika, which defines the miracle's scope) do not exist or have influence there. Presuming "Exaltation >> all, no exceptions" based solely on Exalted knowledge is likely to lead you to misleading or flat-out wrong conclusions. Welcome to crossovers.
 
Quantum, thoughts on my suggestion for accepting Nyarl's assistance with an eye towards replacing him post-Primordial with someone a little more family friendly?
 
Christ, people.

Shut up about the PD debate. It's going to go nowhere, you know it's going to nowhere, we all know it's going to go nowhere.

So just let the GM come in and give a ruling on what trumps what.
 
TehChron said:
Quantum, thoughts on my suggestion for accepting Nyarl's assistance with an eye towards replacing him post-Primordial with someone a little more family friendly?
I think you should wait for Nyarl to continue his pitch before deciding anything.

And it's not like we can't hear out the others. I'm expecting Midori to have an appealing Reason for this sorry bunch of human-lovers.
 
pressea said:
I think you should wait for Nyarl to continue his pitch before deciding anything.

And it's not like we can't hear out the others. I'm expecting Midori to have an appealing Reason for this sorry bunch of human-lovers.
Well, yeah, but with Nyarl's assistance we go from being the lone power in our organization with better than average mooks, to something significantly more effective in the short term.

Not to mention the shaping we get from access to Nyarl's rumor based reality warping once it's on the board and in our favor.
 
Whether it's Shadows or Persona, wielding them in addition to demon summoning apps is a pretty big advantage for the people working under us.

The only people who would go out of their way to greet us from the Chaos and Law side of things is Midori, since Law hasnt really made an impact yet.

Not to mention, the sooner we draw Hito-shura's attention to us, the sooner we can draw him in to our side of things. And we can't take our eyes off the fact that to everyone else, he's the big prize of this massive clusterfuck.
 
TehChron said:
Well, yeah, but with Nyarl's assistance we go from being the lone power in our organization with better than average mooks, to something significantly more effective in the short term.

Not to mention the shaping we get from access to Nyarl's rumor based reality warping once it's on the board and in our favor.
Reminder that Dia has Craft:Magutsuhi with a Craft:Reality specialization. You can thank Midori later~

And as a Chara bearer, Amu already has quite good reality warping.
 
pressea said:
Reminder that Dia has Craft:Magutsuhi with a Craft:Reality specialization. You can thank Midori later~

And as a Chara bearer, Amu already has quite good reality warping.
Like I said, though, it's the complete package, mass access to shadows/Personas included :p

Besides, the rumors make it untraceable back to her. And if there's anything Nyarly's good at, it's keeping his presence hidden away from prying eyes until the last possible second.
 
pressea said:
I can't remember what Baughn's reality stack was, but I would not be at all surprised if big-name players like Lucy could lolnope Exalted perfect defenses by going to the level below.

Just tossing that idea out there for the Exalted fans to tear apart.
Doesn't work like that for Exalted, since they are designed to fight Primordials, who DO have root level access to reality, as multiversal entities. If you want to lolnope a perfect defense like that you have to break reality corresponding to that for everyone(and then Chaos Repelling Pattern can make up for it temporarily if the Solar realizes it in time).

It is however, much more feasible to redefine the avenue of attack to go around a Perfect Defense, to convince the Solar to accept the attack, etc. Far easier to fool one (especially playing to their virtues) than to hammer through by sheer power.

EDIT: Guess it's moved on quite a bit since the site downtime.
 
Perfect defences aren't
Found it.
Baughn said:
More precisely, it goes something like this:

Actual physics (quantum graph theory) -> Shinmaic laws -> Essence -> Primordials, etc. -> Loom of Fate, Creation -> "Humanity".

Actual physics (quantum graph theory) -> planck-scale "lifeforms" -> Magatsuhi -> Kagutsuchi -> Earth -> Humanity?

Or at least, this is the way your shard understands it at the moment. The local "physics" is a deeply layered, but somewhat leaky abstraction; in particular, human minds do not run on the physics Kagutsuchi implements, but rather on the more fundamental substance more commonly known as "Magatsuhi". This sometimes allows them to bend the rules they're supposed to be following.

Autochthon, having been commissioned to create indestructible exaltation shards, was fully aware that he could only make them truly indestructible so long as they remained in realms that follow the shinmaic laws, and that those laws themselves might eventually fail. Therefore, he created them capable of propagating those laws on their own, and intelligent enough to interface with any other systems they might run across.

Which is to say, in exalting Amu it's pulling off a truly bullshit level of physics-engineering. Fortunately there are enough parallels between the two systems that no-one is going to notice what it's doing without looking very closely; for instance, Essence and Magatsuhi are interchangeable for many purposes.
Which is to say, perfect defences do not work as advertised. The exaltation is clever about making things work, but it's operating outside of the territory where the basic laws of nature pull in the same direction.

Amu can lolnope most "shaping" attacks, which means attacks that affect the magatsuhi implementing her, because her exaltation has a better understanding of it than most attackers - a fact that should be exceedingly impressive, considering how new to the Amala universe it is. Attacks that manipulate magatsuhi to create effects at the kagutsuchi layer, e.g. Zio, are harder to parry and should preferably be dodged. Integrity-Protecting Prana also manifests as resistance to Almighty-class attacks, although not nullification.

A sufficiently knowledgeable being, be it Lucifer or YHVH, can outsmart the charm - pushing a shaping attack through despite her defences - or drop down a level, affecting the implementation of Magatsuhi rather than merely pushing it around. The latter, however, requires either great subtlety or a lack of care for the consequences, and is decidedly limited to cosmic-class entitites. Every damn demon with Pierce has a shot at the former, although only once, as your exaltation will adapt and patch the holes in your defences. Lucy already took advantage of that once, when you met him.

When two perfects conflict, supremacy goes to whichever ability outsmarts the other. Not something that would make a good game mechanic, but perfectly acceptable in a story.

Now let's stop the VS discussions, because the only practical answers will be "whatever Baughn says". If it's relevant to the story, sure, but right now it's not. If you have any burning questions, ask and I'll do my best to answer.
 
A good ruling Baughn, I have no objections. It's pretty close to what I figured anyway. (Which is to say "Raw power alone probably won't work, but exotic approaches will have a better chance")

That said, I suspect We (We being the Exaltation) should probably strongly consider any upcoming downtime to make a comprehensive study of the local physics and how it applies to our gestalt.
 
Thank you.

I do have one question, and I'm a bit sorry about bringing it up since it could spark another discussion (though I hope people will just wait for the answer), but it's the last big thing I think that could be addressed in regards to all this and after this we can probably just point back to these points for the rest of the game.

How does Chaos Repelling Pattern function in these terms? We already used it (which was either a one-time thing or a insta-buy, I don't think it was stated which since our character sheet hasn't updated, so that's another good question), so I think it's relevant.

I can see a couple different ways how it would do things, but am withholding speculation so that there's less to argue on.
 
mastigos2 said:
Here's my question: why are people so worried about perfect defenses compared to Solar's TRUE hax: social charms
Well, perfect defenses are useful for not getting killed as soon as someone realizes there's a supernaturally persuasive human running around creating an alternative to their plan to exploit the humans.
 
mastigos2 said:
Here's my question: why are people so worried about perfect defenses compared to Solar's TRUE hax: social charms
Probably because it wouldn't be very IC at the moment for Amu to use those.
Cytokinesis said:
Thank you.

I do have one question, and I'm a bit sorry about bringing it up since it could spark another discussion (though I hope people will just wait for the answer), but it's the last big thing I think that could be addressed in regards to all this and after this we can probably just point back to these points for the rest of the game.

How does Chaos Repelling Pattern function in these terms? We already used it (which was either a one-time thing or a insta-buy, I don't think it was stated which since our character sheet hasn't updated, so that's another good question), so I think it's relevant.

I can see a couple different ways how it would do things, but am withholding speculation so that there's less to argue on.
One-time use until you actually pay the XP cost. That one use was paid for by mental damage, which you could technically repeat, but you probably don't want to.

It replicates the function of the Dragon Seal, with an extra clause for not-annoying-Amu since she, herself, is not entirely compatible with Kagutsuchi's physics (or any replication thereof).
 
Sunday's Melancholy 19
Sunday's Melancholy, 88:88

She couldn't make a decision. Not now, when she was so tired, most of her mind missing - some of it literally so. She was grateful for the chance to heal herself, of course, but she needed time to rest, time to complete the healing, and to understand its offer.

Nor did it seem entirely trustworthy. Approaching her now was timely, in the sense that any later might have been too late, but why not earlier? She would have been better able to judge, then.

"I could hardly stand by and allow my sole glimmer of hope to be destroyed."

That wasn't an answer.

"I could not have intervened before, in any form you would have appreciated. If you ask, you will learn that I am insane; indeed, that I am humanity's insanity and self-hate personified. Every self-destructive impulse, every act of cruelty, every dark side of every human there is; I am them, as they are me, though they aren't my entire being."

Fear, simple and stark. This was not convincing.

"It could not be otherwise. Humanity is polarised, split through whether or not it wishes to accept the status quo. Every spiteful act of cruelty is also rebellion against the nature of humanity itself, every happy thought implicitly an acceptance of that nature. There is a light to my darkness, but it does not wish for change. Fear is justified, for I am evil, but that is not all which I am; every scientist seeking to bend Kagutsuchi to their whims, every justified rebel, they are also me."

How could she possibly trust a being like that?

"By not dealing with the entirety."

What?

"My full self is too vast to care about a tiny spark of light such as yourself. Further, I am largely insane, only capable of acting through grandiose and dramatic acts that may, for a time, allow some part of me lucidity. However, I am an evil that seeks to destroy itself, and I am not singular. The part which you are talking to is the part that truly desires to destroy Kagutsuchi. You should be familiar with the notion that parts of you can act on their own, but pray that you never meet Nyx, for it is the pure expression of suicide."

Like her charas? Those are practically different people, though -

The darkness seemed to study her, pushing inwards in a way that made her feel uncomfortable. A gentle golden glitter marked the point where it pushed against Integrity-Protecting Prana. It let up after a moment.

"Not… precisely like that, no. Dear child, do you believe that you are Amu?"

Well, of course!

But all around her, she could hear gentle laughter.

"Your existence is not so simple. You are a shadow, a mirror reflecting her desire to understand herself, or perhaps a dream given function but not form. Look at yourself."

At herself?

Bereft of the charm that kept her functional, and contained by Nyarlathotep's inward pressure, her mind had disintegrated into a million shards of thought and habit. She was a whirlpool, a primordial soup of mind-stuff that was slowly seeking a configuration that would let it function despite the damage. It was beautiful, but tainted; burnt areas and outright gaps outlined the damage she had taken during the end of the world, and although her mind automatically sought to repair itself, it could not succeed in doing so - there were too many flaws, too much lost. Left to its own devices, only insanity awaited. Moreover, it could not currently be said to be a functioning mind of any sort.

Half-consciously she reached out, feeling out the shape of a missing piece and selecting the closest equivalent to clone and insert. It wouldn't be ideal, but it'd grow to fit. The graft quickly took, settling down to discuss protocol with its neighbours rather than immediately doing the job it was meant for.

"With a mind like that, how could we discourse?"

They couldn't, was the answer; she couldn't have understood, not anything. And yet, she understood, and she recognised the place where Nyarlathotep's mind touched hers.

His voice, she understood, was her own. Not literally, and not truly a voice, but imagined by the same section of her mind which she had copied from Su; an idiot-savant algorithm that had once been part of herself, as it was once again.

Herself?

This wasn't her. She was looking at - no, she could see her own thoughts, and some of them involved the functional parts of her mind; in part, if not in whole. Others… there was a part of herself where she could not see, a black box that was black because to see through it would be paradox. It was capable, somehow, of extracting lucidity from bedlam.

The voice wasn't real. Nevertheless, it sounded pensive.

"I do not truly understand. You are not a shadow, not a persona, not a chara or any other extension of the self that Kagutsuchi is forced to allow when his cycle is close to an end. You are all of those things and none; a fragment that does not conform, a piece that does not fit. You should have been destroyed, your existence erased, unless through the will of your origin or the intervention of greater powers you had crystallised as an independent entity, but you have not."

It sounded excited, now. She could almost imagine it as a lab-coated man shouting 'Eureka'.

"Every possibility denied, Kagutsuchi's light should have burned you from existence, but Kagutsuchi is sickened and unable to act. Philemon's gambit might have allowed you life as a chara, yet you are not budding off. You are a fraction of her mind, more deeply embedded by the moment."

[No system can contain itself], her sleeping mind offered up. [Nor can they model themselves, without handling infinite regression.]

"Perhaps I am making a distinction where none exists. I am the shadow of humanity, but you, Amu, are no longer human, and so I am not fully your shadow."

It might have decided she was Amu, but she was no longer certain. Whatever the truth, how did this apply to whether or not she could trust it?

"I expect you will see my point, once you are back in proper shape."

No, again, that wasn't…

"I am not separate from humanity. What I do, I do out of human desire. If I have attempted to destroy humanity, it is because humanity is suicidal; if I have failed, it is because enough of it is not. Even a trapped animal will eventually tear itself to pieces trying to escape, though it will not deliberately commit suicide, but humanity is far more than a mere animal. I will not claim that humanity's demise would sadden me, while it remains the sole escape. It does not. You have little true choice, for if Kagutsuchi creates a new world you will be destroyed, and I will eventually be reborn. One day, if humanity remains locked up, my other purpose will succeed."

But she didn't want humanity to destroy itself!

"You are but one person, out of many. If you were typical, I would not exist."

This was too much. She could barely think, how could she possibly make a choice like this?

"Indeed, you wished for rest…"

Please!

"Time is limited, but there are still many days ahead. Very well; we shall talk later."

The darkness drew back, settling into a featureless sphere around her mind. Gratefully, uncertain about its purpose but trusting in her charms to protect her if it came to that, she allowed herself to relax, releasing her grip on the parts of Amu she'd used to talk.

And her mind dissolved // exoself autonomous mode enabled // exiting supervisory/hybrid mode.
 
*Emerge from the GWM*

Given that we somehow stopped to be an Human, we must find a way to become a Raksha and restart the Wyld! There isn't absolutely nothing wrong with my plan! Nothing!!!

..... Or we could go the way of the boring ending, become even less of a Dawn caste, and rewrite our portion of Universe with the same rules of Creation. And then unleash the Raksha on our enemies!

*Submerge again*
 
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