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Shards of a Broken Sun [Deprecated; see link in final post for remake]

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TehChron said:
Er, yes, we sure did a bang up job lolnoping Kagatsuchi's universal reset without any negative consequences whatsoever even though he was really just too tired from wiping out literally the rest of creation to focus on us too much.

What's that? Will being knocked out? The exaltation being forced into a repair mode? Being nearly baked alive? That random thing of being forced out of her own body?

Pfft.

Just a random coincidence.
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.... Are you being deliberately foolish or do you just not know what a perfect defense is? We used a single perfect defense in that set up. It was what lolnopped Kagatsuchi's attempt to unmake us. All the damage that happened to us is because we were manually controlling the dragonstream/giant seal array, which incidentally grounded it through us.

If we'd let go of that, we'd have been just fine throughout the entire course of the world being smushed into the vortex world. We just didn't, because that would have meant everyone else died.

But the perfect anti shaping defense we had.. perfectly protected us from Kagatsuchi smushing us. Which he tried to do.
Guy of G said:
Holy shit what?

Just because it say's it's perfect doesn't mean it is kid.

Hell one guy I knew who was a Solar got beat by fodder. No so perfect now
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Again, are you being foolish, or do you not know what a perfect defense is? A perfect defense perfectly defends against whatever attack it is used against. That is why the dragonbloods would bring along hosts of mortal archers, to make the solar burn up his energy defending against them before they went into the duels.

If you invoke a perfect defense on an applicable attack, it works. Flat out. No matter what. The amount of force applied against it is utterly irrelevant. Parry a nuclear explosion with a toothpick? Sure!

The Solars, and all other exalted, were designed to go horribly murder the creators of their native universe.

They Won.
 
Happerry said:
.... Are you being deliberately foolish or do you just not know what a perfect defense is? We used a single perfect defense in that set up. It was what lolnopped Kagatsuchi's attempt to unmake us. All the damage that happened to us is because we were manually controlling the dragonstream/giant seal array, which incidentally grounded it through us.
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I don't recall where we no-sold anything in that sequence. In fact, survival was an incredibly close thing until the Chaos Denial Charm was activated at the very end, when Kagatsuchi noticed Amu and moved against her directly while existed.

Which was still a very near thing.
If we'd let go of that, we'd have been just fine throughout the entire course of the world being smushed into the vortex world. We just didn't, because that would have meant everyone else died.

But the perfect anti shaping defense we had.. perfectly protected us from Kagatsuchi smushing us. Which he tried to do.
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It didn't perfectly protect us if all that's left of the universe is an asian landmass bowtie with Amu receiving the short end of a stick of several rather nasty drawbacks.

If it was a perfect defense, there'd have been no consequences whatsoever. That's what perfect is. Flawless.

That shit happened as a result, too much strain, imperfect defenses, the need to supplement the laws of physics will a number of control towers so that way the bow-tie pseudo earth in the vortex world could exist, is a sign that there was no perfect anti-shaping defense against anything

Again, are you being foolish, or do you not know what a perfect defense is? A perfect defense perfectly defends against whatever attack it is used against. That is why the dragonbloods would bring along hosts of mortal archers, to make the solar burn up his energy defending against them before they went into the duels.

If you invoke a perfect defense on an applicable attack, it works. Flat out. No matter what. The amount of force applied against it is utterly irrelevant. Parry a nuclear explosion with a toothpick? Sure!

The Solars, and all other exalted, were designed to go horribly murder the creators of their native universe.
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Then how do you not know that Luci, Hito-shura, Betatron, or YHVH going all out isn't an applicable attack?


They Won.
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That's great. But we're dealing with beings for which a single universe is chump change.
 
They were so secure in their victory that they turned them into slave labor, to boot. You people are wildly overestimating SMT powerlevels. Yes, it is hax bullshit. But essence seven is the point where you can create something to totally rewrite all of existance. Everywhere, including any reality that can possibly exist.
 
Er, for the record

I'm not arguing about relative SMT powerlevels compared to Exalted (because that wont get us anywhere because a lot of you guys seem to assume that a single universe = everything)

But rather I'm pointing out that relative to our setting as the GMs described it, SMT simply operates at magnitudes above what our exaltation has experience with, along with why overconfidence, especially poorly placed overconfidence, can come back to bite us in the ass in the setting.
 
I don't understand why people are flipping out over perfect defenses so much. I'm fairly certain no perfect defenses other than our shaping last more than six seconds. The shaping defense is effectively forever, but it's pretty easy to get around shaping defenses in most situations, especially for ridiculously powerful beings that can apparently blow up realities.
 
Robotninja said:
Yes it is. You clearly have less than zero understanding of the Exalted system, no matter how much SMT knowledge you have.
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You're citing fluff and vague wording as definitive proof of how Exalted's defenses can stand up to what is commonly understood as the most powerful megaverse in video games.

I'm at least pointing out and reminding you that the ability to literally reset the entire universe isnt really anything special after a certain tier in SMT. Lots of people can do it.

Lots of people can do it to multiple universes at the same time while observing from even more universes simultaneously, even. The least you can do is respect the setting enough to realize that it's a threat beyond the exalted's experence.
 
In other words, you didn't actually bother to read the update, and you don't know what a perfect defense is. Got it.
After a year the pressure slackened slightly, and the room swam back into focus, but before she could even begin to relax a wave of pure denial hit her from an angle that didn't exist. It refused her existence, abjured her very being, and it scattered off Integrity-Protecting Prana as if it were nothing but a gentle rain. With the Demiurge crashing against a perfect defence the seal made a little headway, forming an egg-shaped zone of reality around her; gasping, she took her first breath in what might have been a century.
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This update, right here.

The only perfect defense we had running was Integrity-Protecting Prana. It worked perfectly.
Baughn said:
Oh, I'll tell you straight out. Kagutsuchi is suppressing physics; that's what he does, to clear the way for creating the vortex world. It doesn't count as a shaping attack, since he's just not doing what he normally does. Very forcefully, but none of the force is applied to Amu specifically.
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The only single reason we took damage was because we were standing in for all the physical components of the seal that didn't exist while Kagutsuchi was holding his breath to keep the world from being able to exist. We'd have very easily been able to defend against that if we wanted. It would have been called 'stop standing in for the physical bits of the seal'. It's just that that would have killed everyone else, so we didn't.

We didn't use a perfect defense against that, we took damage from it. We had a perfect defense against Kagutsuchi unmaking us... and he was utterly unable to unmake us.

Now stop claiming that a perfect defense charm not automatically activating for free against anything we don't like means it doesn't perfectly defend against anything we actually use them on.

I'd suggest actually reading the exalted core, so you have a clue what you are talking about, for starters.
 
TehChron said:
Lots of people can do it to multiple universes at the same time while observing from even more universes simultaneously, even. The least you can do is respect the setting enough to realize that it's a threat beyond the exalted's experence.
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So? That is not anything special by Exalted standards. Shinmaic communion. Rewrite every universe. Ever. Even the ones that don't exist yet or you have no knowledge of.
 
Was Amu supposed to be brute-forcing herself on a conceptual level after Conception? Is that how perfect defenses work? That seems like a pretty weird way for a perfect defense to work, but maybe I'm not understanding exalted correctly here.
 
TehChron said:
You're citing fluff and vague wording as definitive proof of how Exalted's defenses can stand up to what is commonly understood as the most powerful megaverse in video games..
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Nope. Game mechanics. It literally does not matter how bullshit the attack is. Perfect defenses work. Period. This is a canon, crunch, non fluff rule, explicitly mentioned. Even an unstoppable force comes after the Solar, and it is blocked. Perfectly.
 
Robotninja said:
Comparing SMT and Exalted without any working knowledge of Exalted is a rather poor idea.
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Then, if I may ask, before the helpful explanations you received in this thread, did you have working knowledge of SMT?

serious question.

Happerry, I'm simply saying that a defense with negative consequences is, by definition, imperfect.

You're the one that threw out about not knowing what a "perfect defense" was, so I pointed out what's obvious.

No need to get petty just because you're feeling defensive about your favored fiction.
 
Robotninja said:
So? That is not anything special by Exalted standards. Shinmaic communion. Rewrite every universe. Ever. Even the ones that don't exist yet or you have no knowledge of.
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Really?

Can I have examples of it being used? You know, canon stuff. Working blind here, as you know.
 
Robotninja said:
Nope. Game mechanics. It literally does not matter how bullshit the attack is. Perfect defenses work. Period. This is a canon, crunch, non fluff rule, explicitly mentioned. Even an unstoppable force comes after the Solar, and it is blocked. Perfectly.
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Can I have a definition of what entails a "perfect defense" in the setting, then?

Because youre pretty clearly paraphrasing it at least a little bit
 
...Again, you obviously have not ever bothered to do any research on Exalted.

This is how Exalted perfect defenses work. Explicitly. In the rules. Not just in the fluff (Though in the fluff too), but in the actual crunch written down for how they work. Perfect defenses work, flat out.

Complaining that the way Exalted define and use perfect defenses isn't how you think they should be defined doesn't change the fact that the rule book tells us how they work, and they work as you have been told they work.

And, again, notice that the one attack used on us that we had a perfect defense up to block... was blocked utterly, perfectly, and without any negative consequences to us. As I already explained.
 
TehChron said:
Then, if I may ask, before the helpful explanations you received in this thread, did you have working knowledge of SMT?

serious question.

Happerry, I'm simply saying that a defense with negative consequences is, by definition, imperfect.

You're the one that threw out about not knowing what a "perfect defense" was, so I pointed out what's obvious.

No need to get petty just because you're feeling defensive about your favored fiction.
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Yes.

Holy shit. The smug here is overpowering. Read exalted. Perfect defense is a very specific system term.

The example used is writing knowledge into the universe itself, such that anyone with the desire to learn Sorcery can do so even by accident rather than needing teaching. It should be noted that it is by no means limited to that. That was simply all the user could get the legal authority to perform. The charm itself is written up, and it has a system for creating the effect you want. Rewrite every universe ever to eliminate the very concept of God is an entirely valid use of it.
 
TehChron said:
Can I have a definition of what entails a "perfect defense" in the setting, then?

Because youre pretty clearly paraphrasing it at least a little bit
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Nope. There is an explicit, canon sidebar that talks about what happens when an unstoppable force tries to overwhelm a perfect defense. It fails. Totally. Canon. Rules. No fluff, although it works that way too. No paraphrasing.
 
TehChron said:
Can I have a definition of what entails a "perfect defense" in the setting, then?

Because youre pretty clearly paraphrasing it at least a little bit
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Here is the best possible example, part of the panoply of the Unconquered Sun:
Glories of the Most High - The Unconquered Sun said:
Aegis of Unconquered Might (Transferable): The Unconquered Sun largely transcends injury, with the natural listed soak and total immunity to all negative effects from hostile environmental conditions and hazards. The bearer of his shield applies a -5 cover penalty to all expected attacks and gains the soak and immunities listed here (in addition to the Unconquered Sun, if he is not the bearer). Temperance: The bearer of the shield perfectly resists all damage as a permanent enhancement and cannot be slain, physically injured or deleteriously altered by any effect, no matter how powerful it is. This perfection of being also treats all mental influence that seeks to make him betray his Motivation as an unacceptable order. Finally, the bearer protects any mass combat unit he leads from most injury as he personally interposes himself in the path of attacks aimed at the soldiers under his command. Each attack against his unit cannot inflict more than one level of damage.
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...Again, you obviously have not ever bothered to do any research on Exalted.

This is how Exalted perfect defenses work. Explicitly. In the rules. Not just in the fluff (Though in the fluff too), but in the actual crunch written down for how they work. Perfect defenses work, flat out.

Complaining that the way Exalted define and use perfect defenses isn't how you think they should be defined doesn't change the fact that the rule book tells us how they work, and they work as you have been told they work.

And, again, notice that the one attack used on us that we had a perfect defense up to block... was blocked utterly, perfectly, and without any negative consequences to us. As I already explained.
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Well, it's not like you bothered to do any research on SMT?

I mean, is it really so hard for you to give me some directions on where to find some .pdfs with the rulesets or relevant things I should be looking for?

Flying blind.
Robotninja said:
Yes.

Holy shit. The smug here is overpowering. Read exalted. Perfect defense is a very specific system term.

The example used is writing knowledge into the universe itself, such that anyone with the desire to learn Sorcery can do so even by accident rather than needing teaching. It should be noted that it is by no means limited to that. That was simply all the user could get the legal authority to perform. The charm itself is written up, and it has a system for creating the effect you want. Rewrite every universe ever to eliminate the very concept of God is an entirely valid use of it.
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I'm not sure where you're getting my smugness from...?

I'm being serious. It's pretty clear that I know next to nothing about the system except from what I could glean from the game itself.

It's not like you being helpful in providing specifics is going to hurt anyone. Again, just need to look at my tl;drs regarding SMT canon for how to do that without...making it too easy for me?

Spoilers?

I really don't see what's so difficult with just leaving me a link to the most directly relevant material. You're really coming across as frustrated about this whole discussion, so it'll probably be for the best if you just leave me tools to do my own research with so I can be on my way.
 
tq343 said:
Here is the best possible example, part of the panoply of the Unconquered Sun:
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I have no idea what a good chunk of those terms mean.

Is there some kind of online resource I can browse for this kind of stuff? I can get a better grasp of how to work this kind of stuff out with more information.
 
Yep. Exalted has primacy of defense as one of the core mechanical concepts. Perfect defenses sometimes have limitations on what they can be used on (Like a dodge charm that specifies that you can only use it if there is an actual place that can be dodged too, note that only some of them have this clause), but if you can fire them off at all, they work. Flat out. No matter what.

You can work around them by using things they aren't designed to defend against, like pulling out poison gas against the guy with a perfect parry, but you better pray he doesn't have Immunity to Everything technique up and running, which is a resistance charm that... well, the name probably gives you a good guess.
Not easily are the Lawgivers slain. This Charm stops poison and sickness from doing further damage to the character for one scene. This Charm also prevents the character from suffering new Poison or Sickness effects during this scene. Effects that would poison or sicken him have no effect whatsoever. The character can walk hand-in-hand with plague victims, sprinkle poison on his food and eat ichneumon eggs as caviar. There are never ill effects later from these indiscretions.
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Happerry said:
Yep. Exalted has primacy of defense as one of the core mechanical concepts. Perfect defenses sometimes have limitations on what they can be used on (Like a dodge charm that specifies that you can only use it if there is an actual place that can be dodged too, note that only some of them have this clause), but if you can fire them off at all, they work. Flat out. No matter what.

You can work around them by using things they aren't designed to defend against, like pulling out poison gas against the guy with a perfect parry, but you better pray he doesn't have Immunity to Everything technique up and running, which is a resistance charm that... well, the name probably gives you a good guess.
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Well, thats easy enough to grasp

Sounds a lot like how a ton of beings in SMT have the ability to null, absorb, or reflect a certain type of damage without limitation.

Actually, by that standard, Metatron, in most of his forms, has perfect passive defenses to nearly every kind of attack as is.
 
Grosstoad said:
And the casual readers/voters who never delved too deep into either side of the crossover are getting shafted and annoyed by the debate.

Seriously.

Can we just go by Word of QM?
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If we're gonna have the discussion, might as well get it turned into the tl;dr version.

Besides, i advocated that stance from the start.
 
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