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Shards of a Broken Sun [Deprecated; see link in final post for remake]

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ShadowAngelBeta said:
Except the proxies talking to us is a failure point on his end as well. It's a pattern we can see and exploit. Very, very quickly is we bother trying really.

I mean, unless he's constantly using new proxies, we'll flip one of them very quickly from Presence rolls. We might not have much, or any, right now, but we will eventually.

But yeah, if he doesn't need long, then we could have an issue.

... So, UMIs? :V (Just once I would like to see a forum based Exalted Character whip out a UMI. It'll never actually happen though.)
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You can't bypass someone's Motivation with UMI. The closest equivalents are Total Control effects and an Abyssal charm that strips someone of their Heroic status, but both of those require effectively killing the target.

EDIT: But if you want to see a quest that makes frequent use of mind magic, the other link in my signature has that.
 
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So, I don't really know Hotsuin's character that well, but how much shit is he likely to give us for taking downtime if he learns our true potential?
 
Winged One said:
So, I don't really know Hotsuin's character that well, but how much shit is he likely to give us for taking downtime if he learns our true potential?
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"Is everything taken care of?"
"...Yes?"
"Excellent. Now let me show you how to sit at your desk imposingly. It's the greatest possible use of your downtime as it motivates everyone around you to work as hard as possible in fear of you judging them."
"Is that really a good idea right now?"
*raises eyebrow, looks at the JPs people running back to task with renewed energy wherever his gaze falls*
"I can see the appeal..."
"Good."
 
I say we tell Hotsuin a half-truth and exaggerate how long it takes for Amu to reach those heights of power and skill without help or training, and how extreme need hastens this process.

Despite Hotsuin's love of meritocracy, he's a hypocrite when it comes to his own power and authority. He doesn't accept that there can be anyone more deserving of his power and position than himself, and if anyone threatens that he'll crush them as soon as possible.

The way I see it, in the best case scenario, Hotsuin decides that thanks to Amu's potential for superhuman skill at everything and her extreme longevity compared to him, it's in his best interests to nurture that potential and he grooms her to be his eventual successor in the distant future. This would require Amu to prove she's loyal to him, of course, and isn't going to be easy.

In the worst case scenario, Hotsuin decides Amu is an asset in the short-term and a long-term threat to his authority, meaning he'll try to wring out every bit of usefulness out of her that he can before getting rid of her, possibly by sealing her somewhere.
 
Okay, so, breaking things down...

~~~

The real important part of Amu's potential seems to come in her learning speed and Excellencies. The learning speed means that she can become [an expert] in [a large group of fields] in [approximately six weeks at most] and that she still has [slots to fill those in]. The Excellencies mean that she can burn proportionate amounts of power to up-to-double her capability, both natural and learned, for a given task. The skills, but not the Excellencies, also propagate to her Charas.

Now, the actualities of the situation are that Amu would need a solid three weeks of actively practicing something she's completely nonproficient in to be able to raise it just to the level where she could get an Excellency (though that's only once for every branch of Craft, as it were). Unless we burn our limited 'slots' on the Ability, which is plausibly a good use of those if the Ability is one we really need. Past that, it's only really easy to increase if it's one of Amu's specialties, since she can do so with an hour pulling data from the Collective Unconscious. Same way the Charas have skills beyond Amu's.

She can also be a peerless unit trainer if she spends the slots or the days to get the appropriate Charms.

~~~

Now, I have no intention of trying to usurp Hotsuin, because Amu gotta Amu and playing for power is not an effective use of her time. Especially since he's big on meritocracy and she's both incredibly useful and incredibly uninterested in usurpation just to usurp. So it comes down to what we want to reveal so we can leverage it more effectively in saving the world and being allowed to do so.

Facts I'm comfortable with sharing:
1) Amu has a limited amount of leftover 'instant learn' that takes an hour to imprint something.
2) One of the things she can instant learn is the basics of an Ability (broad group of related fields); this can be used to increase it beyond that but that's kinda wasteful in comparison. This is real true learning that uses the Exaltation and the CU as training aids, for nearly all purposes (including Chara propagation).
3) She can also fast-learn or instead spend a day or two of practice to learn how to spend energy to greatly increase her skill at anything she has basic proficiency in, as an immediate, temporary boost. This can go beyond normal human skill levels, but has been shown to be kinda wonky at times, as with Samael.
4) She can also learn more advanced techniques like Training Charms, which can also be fast-learnt. This is more a thing to keep in mind as opportunity cost.
5) The efficacy of Solar Training Charms, if relevant.
6) What gets categorized under each Ability, for each as it becomes relevant.
7) The Exaltation's 'specialties' and her 'specialties' with the possible exception of Presence.
8) That she can still pick things up outside specialties faster than normal, but orders of magnitude slower than the fast-learn or with specialties.

That essentially shapes her up as an omnidisciplinary polyglot in potentia and someone who can potentially improve the overall efficacy of JPs if she aims for it, without seeming too immediately threatening or as someone who wants to have to deal with power-brokering.

Things I'm less comfortable with sharing, largely due to either spectacularly low relevance or low confidence in my ability to model reactions:
1) The plan to grab Bureaucracy 1. I don't think figuring out how to deal with red tape and get things done with large organizations would send up too many warning signs (like 'might be ambitious'), especially if we're up-front about the reasons (it's mostly 'being able to effectively handle and anticipate the likely consequences of strategies we suggest, rather than have no clue how it would shake out', right?) but unsure.
2) Just how quickly Amu can learn past the basics in not-a-specialty Abilities. May be lightened with the matter of Training Charms on the table, since it's still slower than she can teach others.
3) The ability to go past human limits persistently. This simply doesn't seem mission-critical or even relevant; GttMH is only going to be relevant if Amu somehow manages to get close to an appropriately-potent moment of satori a third time in a relatively short timespan, and the situation is probably not conducive to achieving Amulet Fortune. If Hotsuin doesn't have a way to extend his lifespan he'd be pretty much dead of old age before it becomes relevant without those.
4) That 'debating skills' i.e. Presence are favored for Amu. Her other Abilities aren't going to be a huge surprise there; she's already demonstrated hypercompetence in Lore, Occult, Dodge, and a fair competence in Medicine. If we're going to boost that in the near future, revealing this would be a show of good faith, or at least send up fewer warning bells later at the cost of revealing a potential 'trump card' now.

Other things, I probably just didn't think of.
 
I like Highwind's. Tell him we can, but it takes a while now. Or something. I'm getting tired.

Also... we're still on for getting a bunch of training time from the Kami we freed or something, right? Because if so, @Quantumboost, we're going to have far more than just Bureaucracy 1.
 
Quantumboost said:
4) She can also learn more advanced techniques like Training Charms, which can also be fast-learnt. This is more a thing to keep in mind as opportunity cost.
5) The efficacy of Solar Training Charms, if relevant.
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We're probably not going to get these, since we have a spirit teacher and they're expensive, so we shouldn't tell him they exist.
Quantumboost said:
1) The plan to grab Bureaucracy 1. I don't think figuring out how to deal with red tape and get things done with large organizations would send up too many warning signs (like 'might be ambitious'), especially if we're up-front about the reasons (it's mostly 'being able to effectively handle and anticipate the likely consequences of strategies we suggest, rather than have no clue how it would shake out', right?) but unsure.
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I'm planning to go for Bureaucracy 5, for the external penalty reducer, so I think maybe we should just not tell him at all and co-ordinate directly with the JSDF, since we have much more of an in with their leadership, and he doesn't have the direct authority to stop us, and it will probably be more useful there anyway.
 
Skelm said:
I'm planning to go for Bureaucracy 5, for the external penalty reducer, so I think maybe we should just not tell him at all and co-ordinate directly with the JSDF, since we have much more of an in with their leadership, and he doesn't have the direct authority to stop us, and it will probably be more useful there anyway.
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I don't think that's a good idea. Hotsuin likes when people acknowledge his authority, and as it is, Amu is under his authority. Coordinating with another agency without clearing it by him, or at least informing him, might be seen as challenging his authority and trying to gain influence through the JSDF behind his back, and the Generals already like Amu far more than they like Hotsuin.

Instead, I suggest we inform him that we want to help the JSDF and frame the reason as us honestly believing that is the best use of our current abilities, and if he questions our sudden masterful bureaucratic skills we can tell him we also wanted to test them somewhere else before showing them to him and offering them for JP's use. After all, we wouldn't want to interfere in his system with our unproven and untested skill, no matter how supernatural it is.

Basically, whenever we want to do something he might not approve immediately, we try work on a way to frame it in a better light for him. This requires decent social skills, of course, but dealing with him at all is always going to require a silver tongue and the skill to back it.
 
Highwind said:
I don't think that's a good idea. Hotsuin likes when people acknowledge his authority, and as it is, Amu is under his authority. Coordinating with another agency without clearing it by him, or at least informing him, might be seen as challenging his authority and trying to gain influence through the JSDF behind his back, and the Generals already like Amu far more than they like Hotsuin.

Instead, I suggest we inform him that we want to help the JSDF and frame the reason as us honestly believing that is the best use of our current abilities, and if he questions our sudden masterful bureaucratic skills we can tell him we also wanted to test them somewhere else before showing them to him and offering them for JP's use. After all, we wouldn't want to interfere in his system with our unproven and untested skill, no matter how supernatural it is.

Basically, whenever we want to do something he might not approve immediately, we try work on a way to frame it in a better light for him. This requires decent social skills, of course, but dealing with him at all is always going to require a silver tongue and the skill to back it.
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Which is why we're grabbing Socializing as well, if not as much as Bureaucracy.

...A dot or two or Presence might not be out of place either? *Pouts* I really want to get into the Archery Charms too...
 
Baughn said:
Changing tracks for a minute...

Without commenting on the implications, Amu is perfectly well aware that she could become good at essentially anything, given enough time. She's not by nature terribly secretive, but she's smart enough to not immediately want to shout that out everywhere, either.

So, how much of that potential would you like her to make Hotsuin aware of?

In the limit, you could say "none" and she can change her mind later, but there's an element of this little recap that'll go better for her if she's open about herself. I could, and probably will just give you a chance to vote at that point, but if this is something you want to decide in advance then that works.
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my thoughts lean towards "I know I can become supernaturally good at things but I don't really know the limits. Some part of of me wants to say there aren't any, but that's just wishful thinking"

Say it but in a way that leaves things very wibbly, allowing others to make their own limits up.
 
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ShadowAngelBeta said:
Which is why we're grabbing Socializing as well, if not as much as Bureaucracy.

...A dot or two or Presence might not be out of place either? *Pouts* I really want to get into the Archery Charms too...
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We're facing the one problem that you can't solve with Over the Horizon Artillery alone... the Action Bureaucrat. You must either convince him to work with you, or pit yourself against him and his organization until you clash with the Action Bureaucrat in a climatic battle of ideals.
 
Highwind said:
We're facing the one problem that you can't solve with Over the Horizon Artillery alone... the Action Bureaucrat. You must either convince him to work with you, or pit yourself against him and his organization until you clash with the Action Bureaucrat in a climatic battle of ideals.
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We know his name and we know his organization's name. If he makes issues like that we can just grind him to a complete and utter halt.

Also Amu just laughing when they call Matou the perfect assassin before shooting a demon on the other side of the pretzel-planet.
 
ShadowAngelBeta said:
Which is why we're grabbing Socializing as well, if not as much as Bureaucracy.

...A dot or two or Presence might not be out of place either? *Pouts* I really want to get into the Archery Charms too...
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We don't need combat charms. Our best bet for combat is to recruit the demi-fiend, which is mostly about having a large enough reach to find out about him and being able to make a good pitch.
 
ShadowAngelBeta said:
We know his name and we know his organization's name. If he makes issues like that we can just grind him to a complete and utter halt.

Also Amu just laughing when they call Matou the perfect assassin before shooting a demon on the other side of the pretzel-planet.
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Oh yes, just grind the organisation holding the laws of physics together to a halt, that won't cause any problems at all.
 
Skelm said:
We don't need combat charms. Our best bet for combat is to recruit the demi-fiend, which is mostly about having a large enough reach to find out about him and being able to make a good pitch.
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Except I don't really care about that? We'd literally be an O-tillary piece ready to fire in case shit got really bad. We could just walk outside for 30 seconds, fire off a shot, and get back to what we were doing while the soldiers get a Solar carpet bombing where they need one.
Skelm said:
Oh yes, just grind the organisation holding the laws of physics together to a halt, that won't cause any problems at all.
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Well that's just why we make our own. *Shrug* Not to mention Amu and her sisters can all do that part of the job on their own. And have done so.
 
Skelm said:
We don't need combat charms. Our best bet for combat is to recruit the demi-fiend, which is mostly about having a large enough reach to find out about him and being able to make a good pitch.
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"Hello! I'm Amu, the Magical Girl nearly singlehandedly responsible for making this Apocalypse at least 100% less horrible for Japan! I'm currently trying to un-pretzel the world and get things back to normal, but I'm getting bogged down by bureaucracy and holding what's left of reality together, so I need someone to kick Demon butt in my place. You want in?"

Unless the other Reasons have already sunk their claws into him, this pitch should be enough to get him to help us. The Neutral End for Nocturne is the Best End, after all.

TehChron said:
Uh

If we don't recruit the Demi-Fiend

Lucey does.
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And that ends badly for pretty much the entire local dimensional cluster, which is all the more reason to work on that.
 
ShadowAngelBeta said:
Except I don't really care about that? We'd literally be an O-tillary piece ready to fire in case shit got really bad. We could just walk outside for 30 seconds, fire off a shot, and get back to what we were doing while the soldiers get a Solar carpet bombing where they need one.
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We cannot personally defend an entire country, period. No matter how powerful we get, there are at most five of us. We're much better of investing the same amount of XP into magical development, or organising logistics networks, or holding Japan together politically.
ShadowAngelBeta said:
Well that's just why we make our own. *Shrug* Not to mention Amu and her sisters can all do that part of the job on their own. And have done so.
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No we can't. We might just be able to program it on our own, but the actual seal has a huge amount of physical and magical infrastructure we can't possibly hope to manage alone. And if we've stolen or replaced all of that, we've already had to beat Hotsuin.
TehChron said:
Uh

If we don't recruit the Demi-Fiend

Lucey does.
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Only in the True Demon ending though, right?
Highwind said:
"Hello! I'm Amu, the Magical Girl nearly singlehandedly responsible for making this Apocalypse at least 100% less horrible for Japan! I'm currently trying to un-pretzel the world and get things back to normal, but I'm getting bogged down by bureaucracy and holding what's left of reality together, so I need someone to kick Demon butt in my place. You want in?"

Unless the other Reasons have already sunk their claws into him, this pitch should be enough to get him to help us. The Neutral End for Nocturne is the Best End, after all.
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Yeah, but we need to meet him first, which means having people allied with us across the whole of Japan.
 
Skelm said:
We cannot personally defend an entire country, period. No matter how powerful we get, there are at most five of us. We're much better of investing the same amount of XP into magical development, or organising logistics networks, or holding Japan together politically.
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... You're not even reading my posts. I never even suggested doing that. Fine, whatever.
 
ShadowAngelBeta said:
*Waves hand* Fine fine, bite my head off for not knowing SMT.
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To be fair, I suspect many of the people here aren't as well informed of atleast some of the series in this huge collision of realities.

So in that respect there's probably usually atleast some unexpected angles that others haven't considered in their debate points or general positions.


Though I think that also makes it interesting in a sense, one probably doesn't have a chance of making a perfect plan, and thus just does the best one can considering as many facets as people can think of.
 
Skelm said:
You're right, that was an exaggeration on my part.

We still shouldn't be trying to personally attack opposing forces. There's just way too many of them for us to make an impact, except by managing and equipping our own forces.
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the issue is by word of gm modern forces are already trained past the point of quick and easy boosts. There is not that much beyond leadership we can do to directly increase the effectiveness of modern troops. Turning ourselves into high-end strategic archery artillery would actually be a fairly effective way to boost our fighting ability. Being able to call down a storm of golden arrows would be a big force multiplier, and I believe we would only need a few charms to do that.
 
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