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Shards of a Broken Sun [Deprecated; see link in final post for remake]

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I believe there was some discussion about going all-in on Archery quite a while back; and I believe that, while it was noted that it would absolutely crush the Septentriones that didn't rely upon certain gimmicks, War charms would be more broadly applicable. Of course, that discussion occurred before huge swarms of demons started showing up, so...

I also vaguely recall someone noting that there was some Integrity charm that would be really nice to have, so burning a quick training slot or two to grab that and any prereqs Amu doesn't meet yet might come in handy.
 
........ said:
I believe there was some discussion about going all-in on Archery quite a while back; and I believe that, while it was noted that it would absolutely crush the Septentriones that didn't rely upon certain gimmicks, War charms would be more broadly applicable. Of course, that discussion occurred before huge swarms of demons started showing up, so...

I also vaguely recall someone noting that there was some Integrity charm that would be really nice to have, so burning a quick training slot or two to grab that and any prereqs Amu doesn't meet yet might come in handy.
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Maybe, but no ones been naming any specific War Charms, so... *Shrug*
 
Well, let me (continue to try to) approach this from the Scientist/Engineer perspective.

Quantumboost said:
Edit: ....aaaaand that's how we get widespread magic. All Amu needs to do is pick up HAM+Legendary Scholar Curriculum and everyone in Japan can have the understanding for basic Magatsuhi manipulation.
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Not so much. HAM is keyworded as Touch, and LSC doesn't modify that. They're probably worth getting anyway; even if we can't get sorcerous training to all of Japan, every extra sorcerer helps. Also, it significantly reduces training time for almost everything else, including our first dots in Craft (foo).

The prerequisite for both of these charms is Lore 5, but that last dot may not need to be bought with a quick-learn slot! Lore is favored for Amu, so she should be able to buy it "immediately" with pure XP. (About an hour, if I recall correctly. @Baughn?) Lore 5 is also the prerequisite for Wyld-Shaping Technique and Wyld-Cauldron Technology, which should help significantly in making things out of magatsuhi. Once we understand m-physics well enough, at any rate.

Lore 5 is also the prerequisite for Immanent Solar Glory, which would allow Amu to regain Essence by "tending to the affairs of a kingdom, organization, or military group which [she] leads."

A dot or two of Occult would be helpful as well, but unless Amu's going to be going into Sorcery (and I do not recommend this) there are no really useful Occult charms.

Craft, on the other hand, is not one of Amu's favored abilities; we'd have to either spend quick-learn slots on it or use HAM+LSC to learn any reasonable amount in less than a season. The likely-most-useful Craft charms are Chaos-Resistance Preparation (Craft 4; strengthen an object against the Wyld), Crack-Mending Technique (Craft 5; quickly repair even irreparably damaged objects), and Craftsman Needs No Tools (Craft 4; obviate need for tools and speed up all Craft work by a factor of Ess x 3).
 
ω₁ said:
Well, let me (continue to try to) approach this from the Scientist/Engineer perspective.



Not so much. HAM is keyworded as Touch, and LSC doesn't modify that. They're probably worth getting anyway; even if we can't get sorcerous training to all of Japan, every extra sorcerer helps. Also, it significantly reduces training time for almost everything else, including our first dots in Craft (foo).

The prerequisite for both of these charms is Lore 5, but that last dot may not need to be bought with a quick-learn slot! Lore is favored for Amu, so she should be able to buy it "immediately" with pure XP. (About an hour, if I recall correctly. @Baughn?) Lore 5 is also the prerequisite for Wyld-Shaping Technique and Wyld-Cauldron Technology, which should help significantly in making things out of magatsuhi. Once we understand m-physics well enough, at any rate.

Lore 5 is also the prerequisite for Immanent Solar Glory, which would allow Amu to regain Essence by "tending to the affairs of a kingdom, organization, or military group which [she] leads."

A dot or two of Occult would be helpful as well, but unless Amu's going to be going into Sorcery (and I do not recommend this) there are no really useful Occult charms.

Craft, on the other hand, is not one of Amu's favored abilities; we'd have to either spend quick-learn slots on it or use HAM+LSC to learn any reasonable amount in less than a season. The likely-most-useful Craft charms are Chaos-Resistance Preparation (Craft 4; strengthen an object against the Wyld), Crack-Mending Technique (Craft 5; quickly repair even irreparably damaged objects), and Craftsman Needs No Tools (Craft 4; obviate need for tools and speed up all Craft work by a factor of Ess x 3).
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Again some very nice things we can make use of in a little while, and I really do want to get around to this stuff badly, but right now we need a way to make Demons hurt. And we need it now.

That being said do you know any good War Charms that could help us here? Most of the reason I'm advocating Archery right now is that its the only Skill we have in reach that has a good selection of Charms to allow us to hurt them while keeping us personally safe.
 
ω₁ said:
About an hour, if I recall correctly. @Baughn?
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"Up to an hour". Since it's just a single dot, I'll call it half an hour.
ω₁ said:
Lore 5 is also the prerequisite for Immanent Solar Glory, which would allow Amu to regain Essence by "tending to the affairs of a kingdom, organization, or military group which [she] leads."
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That one might not work quite right. Oh, it'll do something, but unlike with Creation those people are not themselves made of Essence soo... the underlying assumptions of the charm are quite likely broken. Which is not to say that it wouldn't be useful anyway; one of the things it might do is leech off MP instead of Essence.
ω₁ said:
A dot or two of Occult would be helpful as well, but unless Amu's going to be going into Sorcery (and I do not recommend this) there are no really useful Occult charms.
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As a variant rule, Occult also covers some of the quick-time uses of Magtsuhi. Throwing bolts of flame, that sort of thing; your bread and butter spells in the SMT games. It isn't ideal for the purpose, but every bit helps.

(Lore is "How does this stuff work", Occult is "How do I use it".)
ShadowAngelBeta said:
Again some very nice things we can make use of in a little while, and I really do want to get around to this stuff badly, but right now we need a way to make Demons hurt. And we need it now.
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There's one option in that section that I haven't seen mentioned for a while. Alcor's summoning/spellcasting program, which is in some ways like a low-level exaltation in itself; I'll rule that the users are not necessarily dependent on their cellphones to keep the skills they gain via this system, although it's a heck of a crutch.
 
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Baughn said:
There's one option in that section that I haven't seen mentioned for a while. Alcor's summoning/spellcasting program, which is in some ways like a low-level exaltation in itself; I'll rule that the users are not necessarily dependent on their cellphones to keep the skills they gain via this system, although it's a heck of a crutch.
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... How long would it take us/Miki to write that up? Currently and with 5 dots in Lore.
 
Quickshot0 said:
But there we know about it in meta, it wouldn't be hard to make it discovered I'd assume...
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Really, it's why I dropped Io Nitta and Hibiki on you.
ShadowAngelBeta said:
Then why the hell would you even mention it in the first place? You know what, just nevermind.
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You're metagaming anyway, so I thought I might as well remind y'all. From an in-character perspective, things seem to be calming down right now.

I'm juggling "What makes a good story", "What makes a realistic story", and "What do you folks seem to want". I have absolutely no problems filtering votes through the lens of what Amu would in character want to do. Of course, the more metagamey a vote gets, the more likely I am to outright ignore it—but don't let that stop you from thinking that way.

From a mechanical perspective... knowing how you'd want to deal with it means I can potentially skip a pause-for-vote round when Amu does run into the program. I'd have written "when and if", except it seems near-certain.
 
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Baughn said:
You're metagaming anyway, so I thought I might as well remind y'all. From an in-character perspective, things seem to be calming down right now.

I'm juggling "What makes a good story", "What makes a realistic story", and "What do you folks seem to want". I have absolutely no problems filtering votes through the lens of what Amu would in character want to do. Of course, the more metagamey a vote gets, the more likely I am to outright ignore it—but don't let that stop you from thinking that way.
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We don't get that bad with the metagaming... I think. Most of our Metagaming is getting ready for shit that's about to get dropped on our heads at mach 5, but making a plan around a piece of programming that we don't even know exists? That's too much even for me.

Also if we grab another Lore Dot, which is favored, then Miki would be running with 10 dice so we wouldn't even need to get personally involved. ... Actually, do Favored Specialties fall under Immediate training time or are they still 3 weeks?
 
ShadowAngelBeta said:
We don't get that bad with the metagaming... I think. Most of our Metagaming is getting ready for shit that's about to get dropped on our heads at mach 5, but making a plan around a piece of programming that we don't even know exists? That's too much even for me.
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As I edited in: It would be your plan, not Amu's. It helps me, even if it has no immediate impact on her thoughts or actions.
ShadowAngelBeta said:
On top of that if we grab another Lore Dot, which is favored, then Miki would be running with 10 dice. ... Actually, do Favored Specialties fall under Immediate training time or are they still 3 weeks?
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Still three weeks, otherwise it just gets silly. You can bypass that with a quick-learn point.
 
Now to look at things from a Dawn's perspective.

Under War (which Amu has at 3), there is Tiger Warrior Training Technique (War 4) and Legendary Warrior Curriculum (War 5); these are the equivalent of HAM and LSC for physical and martial training. There are other War Charms; they mostly boil down to 'raising troop morale' and 'battlefield communication and awareness'. They are tactical, rather than strategic or logistical.

There seems to be little else to help a General, save War Excellencies, and Amu already has the Second. If we expect to be in a situation where we're going to be making lots of War rolls in a single scene (as opposed to single War rolls for scene-long actions), it might be worth buying Infinite War Mastery.

For a Warrior, rather than a General, there are all sorts of options... but we're probably giving Melee and Martial Arts a miss. Archery really is better than Thrown, sadly: Phantom Arrow Technique (Archery 3; substitute a mote of essence for ammunition), Inexhaustible Bolts of Solar Fire (Archery 5; pay 8m/1wp to get scene-long free PAT), Arrow Storm Technique (Archery 5; shoot Ess x 3 targets at once; costs ammo), Rain of Feathered Death (Archery 4; create duplicate ammo in-flight), Essence Arrow Attack (Archery 2; damage boost, possibly with fire or holy effect), Accuracy Without Distance (Archery 5; perfect attack).

Thrown has no Charms that allow more than one target to be selected in a single attack, no flurry charms, and its weapon-creation charm is 2m per weapon. (Not bad if you're stunting constantly, but I think we're still working on getting our Essence channels back...?) It does have a damage booster, but nothing intended for large-scale battle; almost half of the Thrown charms seem to be intended for assassinations. We might be able to get some custom Charms based on the Archery tree, but they aren't in core.
 
Honestly, getting a mass-production Harmonizer (Like Alcor's Demon Summoning App) would satisfy the criteria of "Make conventional forces relevant again", which allows us to focus on augmenting our strengths instead of shoring up weaknesses.

That said, Thrown Can output lots of damage in the right situation, but sadly, Holy isn't really useful here.
 
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So if we play toward getting the Harmonizer, buy some of the skills necessary toward making that go as well as possible, we'll have the tool necessary to keep the enemies at bay for a significant time? And then we can then use the remaining quick learns to get the best long term potential?

So what would the best long term goal be to aim toward assuming the above reasoning is right? Decreasing Amu's training time, as learning new stuff is really capped by the time thing otherwise? We have a fair bit of XP still lying around after all.
 
Well, canon had the DeSu2 team managing to handle all the way up to Polaris just with Alcor's program, even with the escalation, if we can mass produce that, we'd be in business.
 
Alectai said:
Well, canon had the DeSu2 team managing to handle all the way up to Polaris just with Alcor's program, even with the escalation, if we can mass produce that, we'd be in business.
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Well, we know who should have the program, so in a sense we just need to get some one, for instance Amu to discover the program then.

Hmm, I guess she'd encounter them if she researched the Sepentriones a bit. Especially how they some how managed to survive? And thus from there lead to her finding out about the program?
 
Can we buy war up to 5 without using a quick learn point? Because that seems to be about all we can do with war until the end of hell week.
 
Skelm said:
Can we buy war up to 5 without using a quick learn point? Because that seems to be about all we can do with war until the end of hell week.
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We could, but it'd take an hour to two hours and we still need to nab the Lore upgrade so Miki can run with 10 Dice and Su/Utau can run with 9. Need to get ready for mass-producing the demon program.

We also need to grab all our Archery stuff, (1 dot for us and 2 for Ran if I'm reading right since we kind of need the psuedo-infinite-range Charm, which I think is an Archery 5), which is going to... not take that long actually. Should be wrapped up half-an-hour to an hour after we get back to the Diet.

If no one's making any aggressive moves by then then we could grab those last two dots in War for directing the forces when we get the program out.

If getting the Infrastructure back up and running is Bureaucracy though... Damn, that's going to be a mess to deal with Especially since its not favored means its going to take too long to get anything useful out of even after Hell Week's over.
 
Why split the Archery up between Amu and Ran? Best as I can recall the Charas' skills are Amu's base plus their modifier, so you'd be better served by just cranking Amu's up, because then they'd all get the benefit.

Assuming I'm remembering correctly, of course; it's been a while.
 
........ said:
Why split the Archery up between Amu and Ran? Best as I can recall the Charas' skills are Amu's base plus their modifier, so you'd be better served by just cranking Amu's up, because then they'd all get the benefit.

Assuming I'm remembering correctly, of course; it's been a while.
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Mainly? The number of hours we'd need to do so. By delegating some of it to Ran we end up being ready to go half-an-hour to an hour after we get back to the diet vs. needing two and half to five hours, probably closer to four. That and Ran having +3 means the bleedover rate for the Skill will, probably, be higher and we'll get some free levels in it fairly quickly like how we got our Intelligence increase from Miki.

Normally you'd be right, but honestly right now, we need to squeeze every hour out of the day we can. I'm hoping to do Presence similarly with Su and have us "accidentally" take over JP. 8 presence plus personally training the troops in everything we can to make them better once we're back to the normal world? Heh.
 
........ said:
Why split the Archery up between Amu and Ran? Best as I can recall the Charas' skills are Amu's base plus their modifier, so you'd be better served by just cranking Amu's up, because then they'd all get the benefit.

Assuming I'm remembering correctly, of course; it's been a while.
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Ran can train separately from Amu, so we're better of giving all the points to Ran while Amu trains war/lore/archery charms. Is there a limit on how many points a chara can have in a skill?
 
Skelm said:
Ran can train separately from Amu, so we're better of giving all the points to Ran while Amu trains war/lore/archery charms. Is there a limit on how many points a chara can have in a skill?
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Yeah, +3 is the Max which is why I've been using that as my limit. And like I said earlier, the psuedo-infinite-range Charm is an Archery 5 Charm so we need all those levels.

I'm figuring we can grab that last point of Lore on the way back to the Diet hopefully and then get the Archery dot quickly once we get back with Ran having trained both of hers while we were on the trip back.
 
Finally, from the Infernals book... other than SWLIHN's charm tree, I don't want to touch any of it with a twenty-five-foot pole. SWLIHN does have some nice Charms, though: Essence-Dissecting Stare is only two Charms in (it approximately duplicates All-Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight), and from it you can get Mind-Hand Manipulation (telekinesis, both utility and combat), and from that you can get Principle-Invoking Onslaught (Essence-based SMT-like-or-weirder damage effects, plus transmutation of anything you killed into... almost whatever materials you want). No SWLIHN Excellency required, thankfully.

I don't know enough about Devil Survivor to make helpful suggestions concerning the Harmonizer. I suspect we (possibly specifically Exa-kun) could learn a lot from analyzing it, though.

Baughn said:
As a variant rule, Occult also covers some of the quick-time uses of Magtsuhi. Throwing bolts of flame, that sort of thing; your bread and butter spells in the SMT games. It isn't ideal for the purpose, but every bit helps.
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Well, it's certainly better than not having it. And practice with that sort of thing would probably open up Craft (magatsuhi) proper...

What sort of Occult rating would we need to have, or what sort of Threshold would we need to beat, to cast SMT spells? Could Amu learn a first-tier spell by having Maya demonstrate it? Actually, has Amu seen anyone cast an SMT spell yet? (Dubhe, maybe?)

Skelm said:
Ran can train separately from Amu, so we're better of giving all the points to Ran while Amu trains war/lore/archery charms. Is there a limit on how many points a chara can have in a skill?
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5, probably, the same as us. (Sidereal'd.) If we do that, though, I don't think Amu can train those Archery charms until she's junctioned to Ran.
 
People have been talking about spending a quick learn point on the archery dot for Amu. Shouldn't we not need that since archery is a caste ability?
 
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