Reds! A Revolutionary Timeline

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The issue with someone like Garvey is that he still has broad, if diminished, appeal and sympathy. He fought on the side of the revolution. He still claims to speak for an oppressed minority. Putting someone like him in prison is a lot more costly and less effective than giving him the lead pension.

Ironically enough, a proper reactionary would be easier to deal with through a simple jailing. If Garvey were a more devout socialist, perhaps he could be safe - the revolutionary government can reason with those, it's willing to negotiate to keep the war wheels spinning. It doesn't look good when a good old communist or anarchist or such dies after complaining about the Communist government.

Garvey is just caught in the unlucky and awkward position of being reactionary enough to warrant proper suppression yet sympathetic to revolutionaries enough that half measures would just exacerbate the issue.
 
Garvey wont possibly matter to 'Pan-Afro' movementism, not after New Afrika in the UASR is created and realizing + the platforms planks on the cultural-social questions being duly enacted, under the 1930s UDF & 'WCPA-solo' both's "CECs-CCs"

Except to bourgeois-plants & con artists in all likelihood
 
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Garvey wont possibly matter to 'Pan-Afro' movementism, not after New Afrika in the UASR is created and realizing + the platforms planks on the cultural-social questions being duly enacted, under the 1930s UDF & 'WCPA-solo' both's "CECs-CCs"

Except to bourgeois-plants & con artists in all likelihood
I wouldn't go this far. It's true that the existence of New Afrika would drastically undercut the appeal of Garvey's strain of nationalist politics, however that doesn't mean that his influence would just disappear overnight. He's a prominent person with a zealous following who played a major role in the region's revolutionary struggle. That naturally would give him the opportunity to maintain his powerbase, just in a weakened state.

Which is exactly what is described in the story. He's not dominant in the region, he's just a persistent presence and able to get sympathetic cadres in influential (but not dominant) positions.
 
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I wouldn't go this far. It's true that the existence of New Afrika would drastically undercut the appeal of Garvey's strain of nationalist politics, however that doesn't mean that his influence would just disappear overnight. He's a prominent person with a zealous following who played a major role in the region's revolutionary struggle. That naturally would give him the opportunity to maintain his powerbase, just in a weakened state.

Which is exactly what is described in the story. He's not dominant in the region, he's just a persistent presence and able to get sympathetic cadres in influential (but not dominant) positions.
Yeah he was major for New Afrika for the rest of America he was just someone important to that region and African-Americans. He was lucky he was killed off before his popularity took a hit and died a slow death. If he wasn't assassinated by his friend, it would be someone else that week. If not he would be legally persecuted after the government reveals his stopping land distribution. Cue a long slow death for Garvey, as he spends the rest of his life fighting a lawsuit. Resulting in the end of his popularity among African Americans as people see who he really is, before dying either in prison, before his prison sentence, or suicide.
 
My perspective is still that whatever his counter-revolutionary sentiments, them putting him in literally the same category as Hitler and the secret Klansmen plotting the downfall of America seems like it was, narratively in the context of the film [since this is, recall, a fictionalized version of events], supposed to kind of be... questionable?

Mason's depiction of Garvey is not quite questionable (tho I suppose it's up to perspective); it's more the fact that Caesar is the guy who is made to pull the trigger on someone whom he has viewed as a friend.

I wouldn't go this far. It's true that the existence of New Afrika would drastically undercut the appeal of Garvey's strain of nationalist politics, however that doesn't mean that his influence would just disappear overnight. He's a prominent person with a zealous following who played a major role in the region's revolutionary struggle. That naturally would give him the opportunity to maintain his powerbase, just in a weakened state.

Which is exactly what is described in the story. He's not dominant in the region, he's just a persistent presence and able to get sympathetic cadres in influential (but not dominant) positions.

Exactly, in fact, the existence of New Afrika would probably push Garvey to want the full separation between the ANFR and the central government in DeLeon-Debs. He had no power to control that, but if left alone, he probably could have done some damage to the newborn autonomous nation.
 
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Curious, but what is the kill count of the NSF & its auxiliaries through the 2CW?

I'd have to imagine between 'lynch law' / execution & deprivations of any prisoners / straight Einsatzgruppen-type mass shootings …

probably runs to at least 100-200k dead, yeah?

[ I'd imagine at least half the count whatever the answer be — are blacks (+ Asian-Americans & indigenous in The West )

I think more should be fleshed out …

re. "The White Terror"
]
 
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Curious, but what is the kill count of the NSF & its auxiliaries through the 2CW?

I'd have to imagine between 'lynch law' / execution & deprivations of any prisoners / straight Einsatzgruppen-type mass shootings …

probably runs to at least 100-200k dead, yeah?

[ I'd imagine at least half the count whatever the answer be — are blacks (+ Asian-Americans & indigenous in The West )

I think more should be fleshed out …

re. The White Terror
]

Ugly as is, this is revolution — and I think fans should contextually be able to parse why 'in-scenario' that Red Terror would be both perhaps vicious but maybe understandable
 
Curious, but what is the kill count of the NSF & its auxiliaries through the 2CW?

I'd have to imagine between 'lynch law' / execution & deprivations of any prisoners / straight Einsatzgruppen-type mass shootings …

probably runs to at least 100-200k dead, yeah?

[ I'd imagine at least half the count whatever the answer be — are blacks (+ Asian-Americans & indigenous in The West )

I think more should be fleshed out …

re. The White Terror
]


IIRC, aspects of a White Terror were very prevalent in the Southern United States during the 2ACW, especially as Silver Legion/Klansmen run around terrorizing the black population for "communist sympathies." Granted, I don't know if your estimate is the settled number, but I think its a reasonable number for the brutality, especially since Haywood's rule over the South would be brutal because of the roots of Jim Crow.
 
I wonder how the character of Iron Man changes here.

Tony Stark: Genius, Apparatchik, Playboy, Engineer (?)
I suspect we find out more whenever the TL reaches the time frame in which Iron Man is first created, but on a conceptual level a Reds version of Iron Man would be... interesting. Tony Stark's character is so deeply enmeshed with the Vietnam era (or in the MCU the Afghan War era, because time is a flat circle and humans are incapable of learning) that it's hard to visualize without having the greater context from which he springs. Which is at minimum still a good 20 years away in the TL.

(Remember kids, material conditions apply to fictional people as much as they do real ones! --Uncle Fun Tyrant, Worst Marxist[tm])
 
I suspect we find out more whenever the TL reaches the time frame in which Iron Man is first created, but on a conceptual level a Reds version of Iron Man would be... interesting. Tony Stark's character is so deeply enmeshed with the Vietnam era (or in the MCU the Afghan War era, because time is a flat circle and humans are incapable of learning) that it's hard to visualize without having the greater context from which he springs. Which is at minimum still a good 20 years away in the TL.
Does the Reds!-TL have a Vietnam equivalent? Or at least something close to it?
 
Unrelated to the excellent New Afrika post but @Hawkatana I just saw a clip today of an Asian-Australian stand-up comic talking about the disconnect between her elegant Chinese features and her low class hooligan voice and my immediate thought was "Good god I've never fully appreciated the implications of Australasia" 😂


View: https://youtube.com/shorts/GO0WkO2U27U?si=Cfl7b1OH8khgSHRB


Does the Reds!-TL have a Vietnam equivalent? Or at least something close to it?
There's the Horn War (though that sort of fills the Korea "first proxy conflict of the Cold War" niche) but there's definitely a proxy war in Vietnam Indochina around the same time as OTL plus a pretty big dust up in the Congo IIRC.
 
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Unrelated to the excellent New Afrika post but @Hawkatana I just saw a clip today of an Asian-Australian stand-up comic talking about the disconnect between her elegant Chinese features and her low class hooligan voice and my immediate thought was "Good god I've never fully appreciated the implications of Australasia" 😂
And on my end, it's hard to appreciate the implications when these are the kinds of people you went to school with on a regular basis. One of my best friends in primary school was a Chinese-Malaysian guy who spoke with a thick ocker accent and had the whitest name imaginable. Hell, I sound less "Australian" than he does, and my family has been here since the first fleet.
 
And on my end, it's hard to appreciate the implications when these are the kinds of people you went to school with on a regular basis. One of my best friends in primary school was a Chinese-Malaysian guy who spoke with a thick ocker accent and had the whitest name imaginable. Hell, I sound less "Australian" than he does, and my family has been here since the first fleet.
I mean I knew intellectually that obviously this anticommunist asian diaspora in Australasia would speak English with an Australian accent but somehow that never clicked for me until I saw the video 😅
 
Nixon becomes Premier in the 60's.

Is Nixon CEC-CC / CPS joint-chair ( 'Premier' ) for an administration led by Communist Labor or by Liberation Communists?

Nixon even ITTL seems a dead-ringer for a Liberation / Labor ( senior / junior partners in coalition, with Social Ecology & RFLP / FLSRP* in the Comradely Opposition

Where here ITTL see Nixon as still 'madman theory,' and statist/centralist-doctrinaire

[ * aside here, but I see that the pre-Revolutionary 'DFLP' sort of language is cast aside post-World Revolutionary War, given the full DFLP acceptance of basically a melange of basically "Khruschevite minus atheism" cast in what is a 'semi' version of Khruschevite Marxist-Leninist politics — domestic cross-class unity + utopianism / internationally 'peaceful coexistence' … coincident with acceptance as a member of the Comintern, though still viewed with a degree of suspicion due to its 'revisionism'

( but here 'revisionism' viewed from the POV of ITTL's "alt-Trotskyist" / "DeLeonist" synthesis / "ultra-leftism" spectrum, which is the consolidated majority consensus not only in the UASR regionally, but also in the 'post-political revolution USSR' and Comintern writ large — as opposed to IOTL where 'Anti-Revisionism' means one or other types of mass-mobilizational revivalist Stalinism {Maoism} or ur-Stalinism {Hoxhaism} )

… in that context I would see the 'halfway-house' populist-socialist gloss of "Democratic Farmer-Labor Party" fit for the 1930s, maybe falling wayside in favor of "Revolutionary Farmer-Labor Party" or even "Farmer-Labor Socialist Revolutionary Party" … along the lines of the IOTL Comintern's attribution for non-industrialized nation's M-L parties being dubbed not 'communist' or 'workers' parties, but instead 'People's Revolutionary Party' since they were sort-of 'proper-communists-in-waiting' ( owing to underdevelopment of industry presupposing a immature political economy without a sizable worker-base yet having been formed ) ]
 
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You are partially right: each faction/fraction within the POLN, while acting de iure part of the same party, de facto have their own platforms and ideas:

These are "pins" from the three main fractions of the POLN: Anarchists (Mexican Anarchist Federation, or FAM, since the PLM stops existing after the Revolution), the Communists (aka, the PCM), and the Patriots (the Left-PNR and maybe some other people in general). It's supposed to represent that, even if the POLN de iure doesn't accept fractionalism, de facto the party is heavily fractionalized.
The Zapatistas are not a different fraction per se, being ambivalent between the anarchists and the communists. But they can be influential, yes, especially because of the whole peasant representation and the existence of the LNC.

I can imagine that, during an election, while the POLN acts de iure as a unified party, locally each candidate uses one of the specific pins to represent their fraction. The only ones who are not an actual fraction, but another political party, are the Laborists. I can see some Laborists de facto working with the Patriot fraction of the POLN, since their positions are not "that" different.
Now, finally, I agree that the UASR can try to "influence" in some way the Mexican electoral-political system but have in mind that Mexico has always been very, VERY nationalist, especially against American influence, because of some "event" that happened in the 19th Century. The Mexican anarchists (the FAM) and the Leftcoms will probably not care about nationalism for obvious reasons, but the PCM is divided between the ones who align with the UASR, and the ones who align with the USSR. The Patriots are even more aligned to the USSR, and the Laborists are probably the only ones who are neutral, because they are "true nationalists".

Mexican nationalism will take time to gradually die.​
I hope I get to see all of your work added to the Reds! Mexico wiki
 
Hello! Hope everyone has been doing well. I just wrote up this little piece - I intend to add some more content to this, but I wanted to get a bit of feedback before I do regarding the plausibility of the aesthetic and cultural developments therein. Of course, as before, this isn't anything like canon, but is merely my attempt to think my way through how our culture and the way we think about it might change in this time-line.
Excerpts from Frederick Jameson's Communist Reflexo-Modernism, Capitalist Post-Modernism: A Comparative Study of Cultural Logics (New York: University of America, Columbia Press, 1982)

Conclusion: The Cultural Logics of Transition

This is not the first study to raise the issues posed by the simultaneous advent of Reflexo and Post-Modernism. A number of recent scholars, most prominent among them Terry Eagleton and Stuart Hall, have drawn attention to elective affinities between the post-modern turn in capitalist culture and the reflexo-modernism which emerged during the second cultural revolution within the UASR. Hall contends that it was not simply a coincidence that the turn away from classical modernist cultural and aesthetic forms occurred nearly concurrently within the UASR and the FBU, for example, and Eagleton thinks that the end of classical modernism was occassioned not simply by transnational networks of influence that sprung up during the period of detente between the world's superpowers but also by the change in both the FBU and UASR from Fordist to more flexible forms of industrial production. The work of both Hall and Eagleton is undoubtedly helpful as a corrective to some of the vulgar materialist scholarship on the development of American culture and thought which conceives its essential dynamics to be driven solely by the internal structure of the American economy.

Nonetheless, an equal and opposite error must be warned against: the facile and easy cultural internationalism which ignores or simply just downplays the importance of pre-existing, endogenous factors in the reception and appropriation of external cultural forms. While Hall, having played a great part in the development of reader-response theories of interpretation, is attentive to this issue, there are plenty of less thoughtful disciples who are not. In the previous chapter, we have surveyed some of these mistakes in the writings of both British and American scholars, both of whom have the tendency to understand the folks across the pond from them as much more like them than they really are. In a world of global super-power struggle and ideological fervor, this may seem somewhat surprising. But at its root lies the simple fallacy of assuming that the transmission of cultural forms between differently structured societies will leave their basic meaning and content mostly intact. This amounts to a form of unwitting, though not for that reason necessarily less harmful, ethnocentrism.

We have tried to shy away from directly discussing transnational networks of influence here. This is not because they do not exist. Rather, it is because we have operated throughout with an explicative and logical understanding of culture: culture has a logic which is intelligible upon close inspection. This logic is intelligible because culture is produced by socially situated human beings whom exist within a particular life-world, and constitutes a response to the problems, contradictions, and felt needs of those living within that world. We may thus speak, more broadly, not simply of the intelligibility and logical structure of a culture, but also of a cultural logic itself: a series of practices, forms, and structures which may be viewed both as a shared mark of many different cultural products and as a relation between these practices, forms, and structures and the underlying situation which they respond to. The existence of cultural logics means that transnational influences, however robust, must be understood in terms of the distinctive way such influences are taken up and transformed by the domestic culture.

Reflexo-Modernism and Post-Modernism bear a superficial similarity because they are both cultural logics of societies in transition. The UASR is slowly groveling toward lower-stage communism, and the FBU has entered a late stage of capitalism in which there are increasingly fewer markets to exploit, a falling rate of profit and consequently forms of technologically-driven displacement of labor have become increasingly prominent. The loss of the utopian potential of 19th century liberalism and the bourgeoie's consequent movement from a progressive, to centrist, to reactionary global class is unsurprisingly coupled today in capitalist states with an art which spurns not simply the hope for utopia, but also the presence of any inner depths. Reflexo-modernism, though sharing a similar skepticism toward the implicit romanticism and utopianism of the grand modernist architecture and art of the 30s and 40s, has at root a very different series of motivating factors.

To speak somewhat simply and programatically: if post-modern art is self-absorbed and self-contained, having little ability to point beyond itself toward the transcendent or authentic, reflexo-modernist art is ceaselessly tripping over itself in anxiety over the future and the myriad possibilities it holds, a reflection of the UASR's terminal consternation about what a communist future may really hold.
In modernism, the surfaces and appearances of things point to inner depths below with a potentially transcendent or revelatory character. In post-modernism, surfaces are elevated in such a fashion that it is difficult to see beyond them, and any attempt at interpretation on the part of the cultural consumer is confounded. In Reflexo-Modernism, by contrast, there is an attempt to bring the depths to the surface, to bring what was previously mediated to our immediate attention. Of course, we might not like what we see, but the equal measure of optimism and pessimism in the aesthetic culture of the UASR bears little resemblance to the utter absence in Post-modern artwork of any value-judgment, however implicit.
 
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Hello! Hope everyone has been doing well. I just wrote up this little piece - I intend to add some more content to this, but I wanted to get a bit of feedback before I do regarding the plausibility of the aesthetic and cultural developments therein. Of course, as before, this isn't anything like canon, but is merely my attempt to think my way through how our culture and the way we think about it might change in this time-line.
Excerpts from Frederick Jameson's Communist Reflexo-Modernism, Capitalist Post-Modernism: A Comparative Study of Cultural Logics (New York: University of America, Columbia Press, 1982)

Conclusion: The Cultural Logics of Transition

This is not the first study to raise the issues posed by the simultaneous advent of Reflexo and Post-Modernism. A number of recent scholars, most prominent among them Terry Eagleton and Stuart Hall, have drawn attention to elective affinities between the post-modern turn in capitalist culture and the reflexo-modernism which emerged during the second cultural revolution within the UASR. Hall contends that it was not simply a coincidence that the turn away from classical modernist cultural and aesthetic forms occurred nearly concurrently within the UASR and the FBU, for example, and Eagleton thinks that the end of classical modernism was occassioned not simply by transnational networks of influence that sprung up during the period of detente between the world's superpowers but also by the change in both the FBU and UASR from Fordist to more flexible forms of industrial production. The work of both Hall and Eagleton is undoubtedly helpful as a corrective to some of the vulgar materialist scholarship on the development of American culture and thought which conceives its essential dynamics to be driven solely by the internal structure of the American economy.

Nonetheless, an equal and opposite error must be warned against: the facile and easy cultural internationalism which ignores or simply just downplays the importance of pre-existing, endogenous factors in the reception and appropriation of external cultural forms. While Hall, having played a great part in the development of reader-response theories of interpretation, is attentive to this issue, there are plenty of less thoughtful disciples who are not. In the previous chapter, we have surveyed some of these mistakes in the writings of both British and American scholars, both of whom have the tendency to understand the folks across the pond from them as much more like them than they really are. In a world of global super-power struggle and ideological fervor, this may seem somewhat surprising. But at its root lies the simple fallacy of assuming that the transmission of cultural forms between differently structured societies will leave their basic meaning and content mostly intact. This amounts to a form of unwitting, though not for that reason necessarily less harmful, ethnocentrism.

We have tried to shy away from directly discussing transnational networks of influence here. This is not because they do not exist. Rather, it is because we have operated throughout with an explicative and logical understanding of culture: culture has a logic which is intelligible upon close inspection. This logic is intelligible because culture is produced by socially situated human beings whom exist within a particular life-world, and constitutes a response to the problems, contradictions, and felt needs of those living within that world. We may thus speak, more broadly, not simply of the intelligibility and logical structure of a culture, but also of a cultural logic itself: a series of practices, forms, and structures which may be viewed both as a shared mark of many different cultural products and as a relation between these practices, forms, and structures and the underlying situation which they respond to. The existence of cultural logics means that transnational influences, however robust, must be understood in terms of the distinctive way such influences are taken up and transformed by the domestic culture.

Reflexo-Modernism and Post-Modernism bear a superficial similarity because they are both cultural logics of societies in transition. The UASR is slowly groveling toward lower-stage communism, and the FBU has entered a late stage of capitalism in which there are increasingly fewer markets to exploit, a falling rate of profit and consequently forms of technologically-driven displacement of labor have become increasingly prominent. The loss of the utopian potential of 19th century liberalism and the bourgeoie's consequent movement from a progressive, to centrist, to reactionary global class is unsurprisingly coupled today in capitalist states with an art which spurns not simply the hope for utopia, but also the presence of any inner depths. Reflexo-modernism, though sharing a similar skepticism toward the implicit romanticism and utopianism of the grand modernist architecture and art of the 30s and 40s, has at root a very different series of motivating factors.

To speak somewhat simply and programatically: if post-modern art is self-absorbed and self-contained, having little ability to point beyond itself toward the transcendent or authentic, reflexo-modernist art is ceaselessly tripping over itself in anxiety over the future and the myriad possibilities it holds, a reflection of the UASR's terminal consternation about what a communist future may really hold.
In modernism, the surfaces and appearances of things point to inner depths below with a potentially transcendent or revelatory character. In post-modernism, surfaces are elevated in such a fashion that it is difficult to see beyond them, and any attempt at interpretation on the part of the cultural consumer is confounded. In Reflexo-Modernism, by contrast, there is an attempt to bring the depths to the surface, to bring what was previously mediated to our immediate attention. Of course, we might not like what we see, but the equal measure of optimism and pessimism in the aesthetic culture of the UASR bears little resemblance to the utter absence in Post-modern artwork of any value-judgment, however implicit.

I like this; it speaks to a conflict of "the end of history" with the idea of "an alien tomorrow". Both are entirely understandable considering the cultures they originate from. For the FBU, they cannot conceive of a future beyond the current system. For the UsAR, they fear that what lies beyond the current system will be unrecognizable and possibly frightening, but at the same time it must be confronted to contextualize the present.
 
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