So, something I'm tossing around an idea for in my head is an omake covering what might replace the Saturn V in sending humans to the Moon in this timeline - or, at the very least, what might replace the Saturn V in sending American astronauts to the moon in this timeline, if the FBU winds up grabbing Wernher von Braun instead of the ComBloc instead of von Braun showing up at Nuremberg.
One important question is whether Korolev survives, and stays in the Union, or if he survives and emigrates to the UASR, or if he dies in a Siberian gulag in this timeline (or if he never actually got caught up in the Yezhovschina in this timeline, which could itself shake things up a lot). On a related note, do equivalents to Aerojet and Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne get formed in the United Republics? Aerojet itself might not have been founded yet, but the collective which replaced its parent company (General Tire) seems to exist, and likewise North American Aviation at least has a counterpart collective which could found a rocketry division.
If all that's in place, we might actually get a really cool alternative to Saturn, instead of the Western lifter being a one trick pony and the ComBloc lifter never working.
One important question is whether Korolev survives, and stays in the Union, or if he survives and emigrates to the UASR, or if he dies in a Siberian gulag in this timeline (or if he never actually got caught up in the Yezhovschina in this timeline, which could itself shake things up a lot)
I expect the distribution of Nazi scientists post war to remain mostly the same given that the selection pressure (go west and get a mandatory job in your field, go east and get a gulag or a bullet for war crimes) is the same.
(Note: All Americuban parties are required to follow a logo format with an animal within a circle for the purposes of not confusing illiterate voters on the ballot. Any party that does not abide by this law may not run for office.)
National Party (Partido Nacional)
Founded: 1967
Leader: Illena Carmen Ros
Split from: The National Salvation Front
Ideology: Military Stratocracy (historical), Big-tent, Anti-communism, American Nationalism
Political position: Right
Official Colour: White
Animal: Bald Eagle
Motto: "One Nation Under God"
The so-called "remnants" of Douglas MacArthur's National Salvation Front, the National Party were formed from the hardliners in the front, even using the colour white in reference to the American White Army during the Second American Revolution and are the most devoted to the reclamation of America from the communists. Nominally a big-tent organisation, they are now a right-wing party in all but name, and make little attempt to hide this fact. That said, they have become more moderate over time, particularly under native Cuban Luis Posada Carilles, who dropped their opposition to bilingualism and made more inroads for bourgeois native Cubans.
Progressive Party of Cuba (Partido Progresista de Cuba)
Founded: 1967
Leader: Nolan Ackerman**
Split from: The National Salvation Front
Ideology: Progressivism, Social Liberalism, Americuban Nationalism, Binationalism
Political position: Centrist
Official Colour: Red
Animal: Mongoose
Motto: "De Muchos, Uno."
The party formed by MacArthur's successor: Robert F. Kennedy after his dissolution of the National Salvation Front. The Progressive Party are the currently-reigning in Americuba, and carries on the legacy of both the Kennedys and the policies of the pre-revolution progressives like Leonard Wood. The party follows a platform of "Binationalism '', where Cubans and American exiles are treated as both equally the legitimate people of the island, with some concession made towards native Cubans (bilingualism, preservation of culture, lack of discrimination in jobs, housing, and public services), with some within the party even making plans to give up their claims as the government of the United States of America.
Democratic-Republican Party (Cuba) (Partido democrático-republicano)
Founded: 1934 (as part of the National Salvation Front), 1967 (one of the NSF successors)
Leader: Wyatt V. Cooper Jr. [1]
Ideology: Twirling towards freedom, Centrism, Classical Liberalism,
Political position: Centrist
Official Colour: Red & Blue
Animal: Mule
Motto: "Not left, Not right, Forward."
Technically the oldest (American) party in Americuba, the Democratic-Republicans (not to be confused with the party of the same name from the United Republics or the 1792 Jeffersonian party from which both draw their names) are made up of members of both the Democrats and GOP that fled from the mainland to Cuba. They hold true to ideals of old American liberalism while playing off the other parties in congress. While they have never held the Presidency in the party's tenure in Cuba, they have at points held the House and Senate at several points since the 70's to the 90's (though never at the same time).
Cuban Section of the Communist International (Sección Cubana de la Internacional Comunista)
Founded: 1925 (as the Cuban Communist Party)
Leader: Miguel Díaz-Canel
Ideology: Communism, De Leonism, Cuban Nationalism
Political position: Far-Left
Official Colour: Dark-Red
Animal: N/A
Motto: "¡Trabajadores del mundo, únanse!"
Formerly known as the Cuban Communist Party, the CSCI (renamed in 1948 to fully integrate into Comintern) are the premier communist organisation in Cuba. They were banned almost immediately upon the arrival of American exiles to the country, and have remained as such ever since (even refusing to even take up an animal logo as a sign of protest). Furthermore, those found to be members of the party are fined up to $5000 for a first offence and spend 6 years in prison for repeat offences. In spite of this, they have only grown in popularity, with many young Cubans aligning with the party. The CSCI however has as many ties to Cuba's organised crime as it has to the Comintern, though does not engage in violent activities except as acts of political protest. Much of the party operates abroad, particularly in Florida, with baseball player and former SCIC member turned Miami Mayor Fidel Castro providing support to the local party-in-exile during the 80's.
Christian Democracy (Democracia Christiana)
Founded: 1974
Leader: Teodoro Eduardo Cruz
Ideology: Christian Democracy, Communitarianism, Distributism, Social Conservatism
Political position: Right wing
Official Colour: Green
Animal: Lamb
Motto: "Veritas"
Formed from people that saw Christian Democracy as a viable alternative to either atheistic communism or the excesses of laissez-faire capitalism, the Christian Democrats were founded with the expressed goal of creating a distributist economy in Americuba and for promoting "Americuban values" in society. Despite the party's slant towards Catholicism, they also welcome like-minded Protestants and Orthodox Christians to join. They are ambivalent on Americuba's claims to the United States, and attract American exiles and Cuban natives in almost equal measure.
Cuban Party (Partido Cubana)
Founded: 1984
Leader: Manuel Vasquez Portal
Ideology: Anti-Imperialism, Cuban Nationalism, Anti-Americanism, Left-Catholicism
Political position: Centre-Left
Official Colour: Red
Animal: Cuban Trogon
Motto: "Cuba para los Cubanos."
The main Cuban nationalist party, which views the US government as illegally occupying Cuba. While not officially communists, they are hostile to the FBU, and are at the very least considered fellow travellers. Current leader Manuel Vasquez Portal once commented "I don't give a damn whether Cuba should be communist or capitalist, all I care about is that Cuba should be Cuba!" The party, which up until recently had abstained from Congress, has been threatened with closure three times. All have failed, with the most recent attempt at closure failing because the courts determined that too many of the members were NBI informants, some of which seem to be actively embracing the party. The party surprisingly gets along well with the Christian Democrats.
Liberty Party USA (No Spanish name)
Founded: 2003
Merged from: America First, Liberty America
Leader: Barry M. Goldwater, Jr. [2]
Ideology: Objectivism, Anti-Communism, Militarism, American Exceptionalism, "Trumpism"
Political position: Far-Right
Official Colour: Light-Blue
Animal: Snake
Motto: "Don't tread on us."
The LPUSA was formed from a merger of the nationalistic America First Party, the Objectivist Liberty America, and other right-wing parties, and is the youngest major party in Americuba. They aren't as prominent as other Objectivist parties in the world, particularly those from Franco-Britain, Australasia or British Columbia, though they still hold several seats in Congress owing to the legacy of America First. Their logo is based on the Gadsden flag from during the First American Revolution (which is popular with Objectivists), and they argue their platform is the very vision the Founding Fathers intended for America. Naturally, they are highly determined to prove that Americuba is the legitimate American government and seek military confrontation with the United Republics. Recently beleaguered due to the imprisonment of leader Donald Trump because of his ties to Rhodesian state security and the extensive Rhodesian spy scandal, with some calling for its ban.
List of Presidents of the United States of America (Cuba)
Douglas MacArthur (1933-1963) (National Salvation Front)
Robert F. Kennedy (1963-1971) (National Salvation Front (1963-1967)/Progressive Party(1967-1971))
Hamilton Fish V (1971-1973) (Progressive Party)
Luis Posada Carilles (1973-1985) (National Party)
Jay Rockefeller (1985-1987) (Progressive Party)
Manuel Artime (1987-1997) (Progressive Party)
Warren Buffet (1997-2005) (National Party)
Rafael Cruz (2005-2013) (Christian Democrat)
Kathleen Kennedy Townsend (2013-2017) (Progressive Party)
Illena Carmen Ros (2017-2021) (National Party)
Nolan Ackerman**(2021-) (Progressive Party)
[1] Anderson Cooper.
[2] Not the individual who goes by that name OTL. Because of Goldwater's 25 year imprisonment, his children are all significantly younger than his OTL ones.
The "Havanawood" update mentioned him as being involved in the industry in his young adulthood so presumably at some point he became a refugee. I'd maybe guess as due to involvement in union activity.
Still working on the spaceflight omake - just would like clarifications on a few things related to rockets, as well as open-sourcing some names for things.
First up - what's the name of the collective which replaces the United Aircraft Corporation in this timeline, assuming that got split off from any United Aircraft and Transportation Company collective? (or, if it's assets got moved to another collective, that would also be helpful). One of the neat things about the lifter which will be replacing the Saturn family in the omake is its compatibility with large solid rocket motors (either purpose designed for it, or from an earlier program analogous to Titan IIIC as per OTL's UA1207 motors). Thus, I need a name for them - the UA1207 got it's name from United Aircraft Corporation, 120 inch diameter 7 segment solid rocket motor. The number part is easy - 305, simply converting inches to centimeters and rounding up, and it'd still have 7 segments - but I would still want a two letter acronym if possible.
Second, never actually got names for what collectives might replace Aerojet and/or Rocketdyne in this timeline - it could be useful, both for UASR production names for the first stage engines (RD-160s, essentially an earlier version of the RD-180 engines of OTL - oxidizer rich staged combustion cycle kerolox engines, ~4.15 MN of thrust in vacuum per engine) as well as for the second stage engines (IOTL, known as the Rocketdyne J-2, and used on the second and third stages of the Saturn V).
And third, while Alexei Leonov is probably going to be the Lunar Module Pilot for the first manned lunar landing (using essentially OTL!Apollo for mission architecture), that still leaves a Mission Commander and Capsule Pilot - while I could stick Neil Armstrong and Michael Collins in their historical spots, I figured I'd run it past the thread to make sure I wouldn't be accidentally putting in a crew member who wouldn't be in the UASR. Another option, of course, would be to have Mary W. Funk (aka Wally Funk) in one of those seats, booting Armstrong or Collins to a different flight - given the UASR's greater gender equality, presumably Funk would actually have a shot at being selected as an astronaut for the Project Mercury or Project Gemini equivalents, along with potentially the rest of the OTL!Mercury 13.
EDIT: Also, have an image gallery. Yes, the Doylist reason for why the KH-11 isn't visible is because I didn't want to dig around the CKAN mod installer to find a good Hubble/KH-11 parts pack that worked with Realism Overhaul to make a good-ish looking KH-11.
Still working on the spaceflight omake - just would like clarifications on a few things related to rockets, as well as open-sourcing some names for things.
First up - what's the name of the collective which replaces the United Aircraft Corporation in this timeline, assuming that got split off from any United Aircraft and Transportation Company collective? (or, if it's assets got moved to another collective, that would also be helpful). One of the neat things about the lifter which will be replacing the Saturn family in the omake is its compatibility with large solid rocket motors (either purpose designed for it, or from an earlier program analogous to Titan IIIC as per OTL's UA1207 motors). Thus, I need a name for them - the UA1207 got it's name from United Aircraft Corporation, 120 inch diameter 7 segment solid rocket motor. The number part is easy - 305, simply converting inches to centimeters and rounding up, and it'd still have 7 segments - but I would still want a two letter acronym if possible.
Second, never actually got names for what collectives might replace Aerojet and/or Rocketdyne in this timeline - it could be useful, both for UASR production names for the first stage engines (RD-160s, essentially an earlier version of the RD-180 engines of OTL - oxidizer rich staged combustion cycle kerolox engines, ~4.15 MN of thrust in vacuum per engine) as well as for the second stage engines (IOTL, known as the Rocketdyne J-2, and used on the second and third stages of the Saturn V).
And third, while Alexei Leonov is probably going to be the Lunar Module Pilot for the first manned lunar landing (using essentially OTL!Apollo for mission architecture), that still leaves a Mission Commander and Capsule Pilot - while I could stick Neil Armstrong and Michael Collins in their historical spots, I figured I'd run it past the thread to make sure I wouldn't be accidentally putting in a crew member who wouldn't be in the UASR. Another option, of course, would be to have Mary W. Funk (aka Wally Funk) in one of those seats, booting Armstrong or Collins to a different flight - given the UASR's greater gender equality, presumably Funk would actually have a shot at being selected as an astronaut for the Project Mercury or Project Gemini equivalents, along with potentially the rest of the OTL!Mercury 13.
EDIT: Also, have an image gallery. Yes, the Doylist reason for why the KH-11 isn't visible is because I didn't want to dig around the CKAN mod installer to find a good Hubble/KH-11 parts pack that worked with Realism Overhaul to make a good-ish looking KH-11.
Excerpts from Gabriel Howard* Space Race: From Sputnik to the International Mars Mission (Seattle, Longshore Books, 1999)
The Newest Colossus - the Columbia Launch Vehicle Family
A Columbia H42 (Heavy, 4 boosters, upper stage configuration 2) roars skywards, carrying a 100 ton payload for the International Mars Program. The largest and most capable rocket ever flown, the H42 is a rare sight in the skies over Florida - mostly due to the relative paucity of payloads requiring its full might. Clearly visible are the fifteen RD-160 rocket engines providing thrust for the rocket - each engine's turbopump assembly driving a pair of combustion chambers. The official rated thrust at liftoff is in excess of 50 million newtons - far and away the highest thrust of any rocket ever launched from the surface of the Earth.
The Columbia rocket family was born out of equal parts necessity and innovation. In 1960, following the shocking flight of Franco-British spationaut Thomas Lawson, the Communist International announced the Luna program in an effort to ensure that they would not be out-paced by the alarmingly rapid development of the FBU's rocketry programs. Pursuant to this, a launch vehicle capable of supporting this mission was required - even the most optimistic planners of the early 1960s recognized that the early Eos, Semyorka, Bellona, and Prometheus missile and launch vehicle derivative programs would almost certainly be insufficient. As such, requests for proposals were soon sent to every major Design Bureau in the ComIntern - and it wasn't long before they got a more than acceptable answer.
In 1961, Sergei Korolev, Valentin Glushko, Nikolai Kuznetsov, Robert Goddard, and Clifford Luzatto* met in Metropolis, to discuss a joint project between their respective bureaus and collectives. Later joined by Ivonne Gwerder* from United Aircraft, the six designers soon hashed out a proposal. Utilizing recent advancements in metallurgy originally developed for very high performance aircraft engines, the first stage of the new launch vehicle - tentatively designated simply as the Luna Launch System - would be powered by engines burning refined kerosene and liquid oxygen in a staged combustion cycle. While still in the experimental design phase with the Kuznetsov Bureau's NK-9 engine, the oxygen rich staged combustion cycle offered significant promise if mastered. With much of the experience involved already within the Soviet Union, it was quickly decided that the engines, later designated as the RD-160, would be jointly developed by the Kuznetsov Design Bureau and Glushko's OKB-456, with the former providing manufacturing space for the engines.
For the second stage, the rocket would leverage American rocket expertise, in particular the Aerojet Collective's Rocketdyne branch and it's experimentation with liquid hydrogen burning rocket motors. While limited to the simpler gas generator cycle for driving the turbopumps of the motors, the J-2 engines already in development were, in their final production versions, slated to hit slightly more than 1 million newtons of thrust at more than 420 seconds of specific impulse. That alone made them the best available option for a second stage, with the alternative proposal - a vacuum optimized, half thrust variant of the RD-160 supplemented by a pair of vernier engines - trailing as a distant second. The truly impressive specific impulse also made the engines more efficient for propelling spacecraft to high energy trajectories - in particular, trans-lunar trajectories, as well as those bound for other planets in the Solar System.
However, it was recognized that any rocket which relied on monolithic stages to achieve the desired performance - a set of numbers which were climbing rapidly as other groups worked on mission proposals for Luna - would inevitably be incredibly costly. And, as a consequence, could well be very slow to develop - especially due to needing to build test infrastructure to support the rocket stages involved, and the difficulties in transporting large rocket stages in the terrain of the Soviet Union due to their unfortunate lack of large rivers near Baikonur or Plesetsk. However, a pithy comment by Luzatto wound up providing an accidental solution - instead of designing a monolithic first stage, only ever used for lifting the combined rocket, it would be possible to design a first stage which could also be utilized as a booster to supplement the thrust of the rocket. By combining these cores, one could significantly increase the performance of a given launch vehicle, while also retaining versions potentially useful for lighter payloads. Related to this, it was noted that a single-engine version of the upper stage, likely utilizing a shorter main-tank assembly due to lower fuel consumption, could prove useful for these lighter variants - reducing the cost per launch of lighter versions of the rocket further with only marginal design alteration.
The end result was a surfeit of rockets - from the single-stick LLS 01, designated for its use of a baseline single engine upper stage and lack of boosters, capable of approximately 25 tons to orbit, up to the gargantuan LLS 42L, utilizing four common core boosters and a twin engine upper stage, intended for roughly 120 tons to a parking orbit. And all of these would be possible with only 4 production lines dedicated to rocket stages - one for constructing the common cores, one for constructing twin engine upper stages, one for constructing single engine upper stages, and a fourth line used for converting core stages into boosters for the heavier configurations of the rocket. Prior to leaving Metropolis on the last day of their collaboration, the proposal also gained the name which stuck with it even through the bureaucracy of the ComIntern's space programs - Columbia. Apocryphal accounts vary on which of the attendees of the meeting gave it the name, but they all agree on the comparison being made to the mightiest configuration and the American cultural icon - a comparison quite useful to the Public Information Office of the People's Secretariat for Aeronautics, as well as Soviet propaganda efforts.
First flying in 1966, the early Columbia lifters were plagued by teething issues - minor failures in the flight computers due to unexpected accelerations, flaws in the engine turbomachinery causing engine shutdowns or outright explosions, and in one notable instance a rocket stage veered far off course, nearly dropping the upper stage and payload demonstrator on Bermuda. However, by 1968 the lifter had proven itself to a sufficient degree as to be declared safe for crew - leading, in turn, to the first manned missions of the Luna program. The first few missions flew on the Columbia M01 - intended mostly as Low Earth Orbit tests of the Luna Command Service Module - and proved out the spacecraft's abilities in Low Earth Orbit. Later missions, lifted by Columbia H22s, tested the Lunar Excursion Module and its capabilities, as well as manned Lunar fly-by and orbit missions in Luna 7 and Luna 8 respectively. Finally, the full Columbia H42 was used to loft the final two missions of the first suite of Luna flights - the dry-run test of Luna 9, and the final landing of Luna 10.
[...]
On May 25th, 1970, Mission Commander Mary Funk and Lunar Module Pilot Alexei Leonov became the first humans to land upon the surface of the Moon. Touching down in the Oceanus Procellarum, approximately 300 meters from the Pioneer 3 probe landed approximately four years prior, the two donned their space suits and descended to the surface. The television broadcast of the landing, transmitted across the world, is believed to have been seen by upwards of 1 billion people in it's first broadcast, and uncountable numbers more have watched it since on the internet or re-broadcast on TV. While Funk's first words - "That's one small step for a human, one giant leap for all humankind" - are widely taught in schools, it is Leonov's first words that are more famous. "From where Comrade Funk and I now stand, one can see the whole of human progress laid out behind us - from the first fires through the works of the great minds of the world, all the way to where we now stand. In taking the steps we have, we lead the way on a new course into the future - both to better the lives of all the workers of Earth, and in the memory of those who did not live to see what their works would bring."
Amidst the deployment of experiment packages and testing of their Lunar Rover, the two cosmonauts also left two things - a flag of the Communist International, and a plaque. The latter dedicated the site in the name of a number of deceased socialist visionaries, as well as Yuri Gagarin and Billie Guster* - the victims of the Gemini 6 disaster, killed when their spacecraft exploded during an attempted abort via the onboard ejection seats.
Naming guide:
- Eos: TTL!Atlas, one of the two first-generation United Republics ICBMs. Developed into a reasonably capable early launch vehicle, and used for American launches of TTL!Project Mercury (still haven't figured out a name). Considered kind of an unpleasant ride, due to high TWR at sustainer burnout. Developed into a reasonably good LV which competed with Semyorka and Prometheus derived vehicles in the early/mid 1960s. Phased out in favor of Angara family lifters (derived from Columbia, using a single RD-160 powered first stage and a liquid hydrogen/liquid oxygen burning second stage, essentially TTL!Atlas III/Atlas V) in the 1980s.
- Semyorka: As per OTL, this is the R-7. Modified derivatives remained flying until the late 1980/early 1990s, when the Angara rocket family took over the higher end of its performance curve, and the Carrack family (derived from Worker's Revolutionary Air Force LGM-97 Peacekeeper ICBMs, combined with a hypergolic third stage for precision orbital placement or high energy transfer orbits) took over the lower end.
- Bellona: TTL!Juno 1. A lighter alternative to Semyorka for very early science satellites, Bellona is nonetheless phased out very quickly due to its low room for improvement. Launches the Explorer series of scientific satellites, prior to their phaseout in late 1959 in favor of the future Orbital Geophysical Observatory program.
- Prometheus: TTL!Titan 1. Intended as a Dissimilar Redundancy backup to the Eos program, Prometheus is disappointing as an ICBM but saw some interest as a launch vehicle. Later versions competed with Eos derivatives, including the Prometheus IIIC - whose UA3055 solid rocket boosters would be extended to the UA3057 eventually used on the Columbia family. Phased out rapidly due to Columbia family of launchers, with last versions being replaced by Angara rockets in the 1980s.
On a different topic, guess who nearly put a picture of the OTL!Lunar Module into the post, replete with OTL United States flag on the side of it, because they spent too much time working on this and probably not enough time going to sleep?
Either way, please feel free to comment on this probable train wreck - I should probably have held off on posting in favor of re-reading this when I woke up later.
Interesting. I guess in TTL it's the FBU who spend a lot of time trying to come up with exotic propellants and oxidisers for their rockets instead of just scaling up a proven design.
Interesting. I guess in TTL it's the FBU who spend a lot of time trying to come up with exotic propellants and oxidisers for their rockets instead of just scaling up a proven design.
Sort of? I was figuring that the FBU's rocketry program winds up being sort of split between a camp which prefers rockets fueled by Kerosene and High Test Peroxide (ala OTL!Black Arrow), those who prefer kerolox or other non-toxic propellants, and those who are proponents of storable hypergolic propellants - with that division potentially being the reason the ComIntern didn't initially believe that the FBU was at all ready for a manned orbital flight.
As for what the FBU flies to the Moon (and I am presuming that they have their own Lunar landing program, given the probable intent of the Space Oddity omake), something similar to seyMonster's "A Very British Space Program" could be used as a guide - specifically, the Grey Queen launch vehicle seen in Episodes 49 and 50 - albeit potentially with hydrolox engines in play (and, obviously, not actually beating the ComIntern to first orbit or first Lunar Landing). Much like N1, the Grey Queen has a lot of engines on the first stage, although I suspect the FBU would be less inclined to cheap out on things like test stands than the OTL!Soviet Union was, thus reducing their problems with unreliable plumbing/control computers/etc.,
EDIT: Also, being fair to the FBU, the Columbia family aren't really a proven design or derived from a proven design, at least until they prove themselves in their early flights in '66 and more successful flights in '67 - TTL, Columbia M01 acts as the Saturn 1/1B equivalent, while H42 replaces the Saturn V.
Krishna: Was watching Hughes History to watch a doc about the two Grand Tour probes, and there was an ad for the newest episode of "History's Greatest Secrets…Revealed!" This one is apparently about how Stalin was shot by a "web of conspiracy that went to the top of the Workers' Communist Party".
Apparently, it's one of those shows. Hope Sean Cinneide makes an appearance!
KillerCheng: Every time I thought that the Stalin conspiracies died down, it pops back up again.
It is, however, incredibly entertaining to see the straws that some theories grasp to come to their conclusions, especially with the events surrounding Stalin's death.
Though to be fair, quite a lot of people, both in the Soviet Union and the greater Comintern, either had very justifiable reasons to want him dead, or would be far better off with him out of the picture. Even then, who would have time for conspiracies in the middle of a war, and especially during a battle as dire as the Battle of Moscow?
Krishna: I mean, both sides built atom bombs and not a word leaked out of either.
KillerCheng: That is true, though the creation of and secrecy surrounding nuclear weapons is a natural result of building something incredibly powerful and not wanting the other side to know the finer details. That's different from trying to point to several events coinciding at a precise point in a chaotic environment and calling it a deliberate act. It's a very common thing among most of the theories I've seen, running the gamut of Luna and Mars landing hoaxers, flat-earthers, and the tin-foil hat wearing Illuminati nuts, and that's not getting into my own rant on the damned Time Cube nonsense.
SolomaniCommissar: Oh shit are we talking about Stalin conspiracies? I think my favorite - and probably most brain-melting - one was some *insane* pseudo-Strasserite from somewhere in the Balkans saying that Stalin actually went into hiding to weed out "Anglo-American revisionism" and "restore a proper, orthodox Eurasian-Leninist line in the ComIntern." He never explained if it worked or not lmao.
KillerCheng: I think I physically *felt* the last few braincells I had spontaneously combust upon reading that. And I thought the whole thing with the landmine was pushing it. Then again, I may have managed to blank out one of those theories that tied itself to the Time Cube.
SolomaniCommissar: This guy was in half of my engineering courses at Polytechnic. I think he got kicked out for calling in a bomb threat or something.
Oh my god I fucking love the Time Cube Guy, but thats getting off topic lol.
KillerCheng: Sucks that you had to deal with him for any amount of time. But back on topic, I mention the Landmine theory because it's one of those theories that assumes that everything was pre-planned in some way, not accounting for such things as the material conditions of being in war, among other things. Like, how would anyone know the precise location where Stalin would stand, beyond being at the front for morale boosting?
TheTimewalkingComrade: The degree of pre-planning would have to be utterly precise for such a thing to even remotely succeed, mind you. And that's excluding a whole plethora of factors that could have gone wrong. Take for example, someone else triggering the mine. And the General Secretary is merely blown away by the blast, shaken but unhurt.
Krishna: How did all this Stalin business start anyways? Assassinations are always covered in conspiracy nonsense (Foster, Nixon, Lee, Innocent), but there seems to be a lot of conspiracy around this particular one.
AVeryTrueDemocrat: From my reading, there were conspiracies about Stalin's death from just after the war ended. It was mainly low-level Soviet Army guys and some anti-American authors who originally pushed it as a general American conspiracy to eliminate Stalin and his allies like Beria in favor of moderates like Molotov who were "more malleable" to American needs.
It really didn't gain much currency until the 1960's, when two big events happened. Nixon is almost killed by a failed rugby player and Comintern intervenes in Albania. The Nixon assassination attempt spurs the Commission lead by Sean Cinneide, then Chairman of the Military Collegium. The Commission releases a report about the assassination that some are suspicious of. Some then accuse Cinneide of being in on a Party conspiracy. They then get their hands on his 1960 memoir, where he mentions being around the area where Stalin had died around the time Stalin died.
Some on the New Left spread it. National Communists amplify it, and that's at least how Cinneide enters the picture.
KillerCheng: So like nearly every other conspiracy theory, it stems from bigotry, elitism, and reactionary beliefs?
Well, there's also the thing of Stalin having been quite an influential figure before keeling, but yeah.
Krishna: What exactly did Cinneide's memoirs say?
EtriganTDemon: Calling it a "memoir" is a stretch. It was his wartime journal, which is why it is viewed as a primary source. He was in the area, and he had noted that he had seen a group of people nearby, who he assumed was a small group of Party members and military personnel. He filed it with his commanding officer, who said that they were already evacuated. He never mentions Stalin by name or even that he had seen them when he started firing.
ElricofMelniboné: Of course he would say he wasn't there! He was probably told not to put it down or they took it out before he was published.
The German spotter Dietrich Dohl observed Stalin and Cinneide within a short distance of each other right before the death.
EtriganTDemon: No, he didn't. He reported he saw a large group of people in the area, that appeared to be prominent party members and military leaders. He didn't mention Stalin at all. He reported also seeing a soldier nearby who looked vaguely like Joseph P. Kennedy. There's no way of making a definite ID from that distance, and also, there's a possibility he might've seen someone else.
Anyway, Dohl's story is just used by both Cinneide and German intentional proponents.
MartinTheMartian: My favorite conspiracy theory surrounding Stalin's death (courtesy of the lovely twats at the Communist Party of the Entente Cordiale) is that Stalin was assassinated by a "revisionist clique" with the express purpose of weakening the USSR and the international communist movement by "instituting weak leadership that would be unable to adequately combat global capitalism" as well as "degenerating Stalin's strict social standards and discipline, thus ensuring capitalist infiltration of Soviet society and government", stopping just short of throwing anti-semitic dogwhistles on top of it. Goddamn it, the CPEC is completely deranged.
TheTimewalkingComrade: For Lenin's and Deb's sake, spare me that bullshit. This is the point where it degenerates into political mudslinging, character assassination and Americophobic vitriol-throwing, which is practically a tradition in the CPEC.
KillerCheng: I think it's just a thing at this point that these kinds of conspiracies lean heavily towards thinly veiled bigotry on some level, unless it's the (Indonesia? Italy? Myanmar?) thing of everything being true all at once and done with a comical level of incompetence.
TheYugoslavJovian: Conspiracy theories are indicative of at least a small degree of false consciousness. I.e. individuals understand that there's something wrong with society but instead of accepting the complex fact about how capitalism exploits people and how that exploitation isn't readily visible in favor of simplistic "this group of people is inherently evil and and the cause of everything" regardless of how little sense it makes.
UncleLev'sFootlong: In that sense, it is easier to deflect people away from the root causes in favor of throwing your chosen targeted group of the week under the bus as the scapegoat, as that requires less effort to comprehend?
Cheka: "Conspiracy theory"?
Don't lump us in with those Luna and Mars landing hoaxers, flat-earthers, and antivaxxers.
The record of American social-imperialism is well attested to. American ultras supported deviationists throughout the 30s, including their attempts to seize power from the democratic Stalin government through illegal means, including collaboration with British imperialists. American "aid" came with so many strings attached that by 1938, you can pretty much say that the whole of the Soviet government was run from DeLeon DC.
And when Bolshevik patriots like Stalin tried to fight against this opportunism by renegades like Tukhachevsky and Zinoviev, who were quite patently using Americans like the rubes they were for their own purposes, you condemned it as a "Great Purge" and "extralegal murder."
American State-Sec cadres openly admit to arranging the murder of patriots like Beria while we were fighting a war for our survival. This is attested in declassified documents from the American StateSec, collected and reviewed by esteemed academics from Harvard and Palo Alto State University[1] with no connection to "revisionists" in my country.
The Americans had their collaborators within the Party, I'll give you that, but it tells you all you need to know that it was the bourgeois double-agent Sean Cinneide who pulled the trigger. He was a major contact with the British imperialists through his father. Is it such a stretch to believe that you would not also conspire the death of Stalin so that he might be supplanted by men like Molotov, Frunze, and Kuznetsov who were much more amiable to the American revisionist world communism?
TheThirdMan: The father Sean never spoke with again after he was abandoned in the mainland?
ElricofMelniboné: Says him. He's a blue blood, his family was way too ingrained in the system to be really rid of his bourgeois origin.
Also, as a card-carrying member of the CPEC, I resent the notion of us being cranks or anti-semites!
The revisionists and their American masters were very good at hiding the truth. They forged the report and fudged the autopsy to place the blame on the Germans. They then installed Molotov, who began the degeneration of communism that continues to this day.
SkaelingQueen: I'm pretty sure that never happened, given the report and the autopsy are generally consistent. There were some mistakes in the autopsy and I think that's part of where the conspiracy nonsense arises from.
TheThirdMan: Anyway, my uncle is really into this Stalin stuff, alongside Nixon conspiracies. He doesn't believe Cinneide was involved, but rather Jane Schafer, because she was later recruited to kill Beria.
ElricofMelniboné: Yes, she was the key. The one American who was their ruthless agent against heroes like Stalin and Beria.
ElricofMelniboné: Lies conceived to justify the murder.
SkaelingQueen: Yeah, no, it was pretty well-documented, if you look through the post-war commissions (which you probably think are revisionist, so nevermind).
ElricofMelniboné: Americans like you get defensive when confronted with your imperialism.
SkaelingQueen: I mean, I'm Norwegian and I live in the Soviet Union now, so.
TheTimewalkingComrade: "Patriots and heroes like Beria?" Looks like I have seen it all.
By the way, this reminds me of the views of Lazar Kaganovich regarding the United Republics.
ElricofMelniboné: What are you trying to pull off here by referencing another great patriot?
TheTimewalkingComrade: Just that " Iron Lazar ", who was quite responsible for the 1932 famine, and also a vital cog of the Yezhovshchina, never considered the UASR in a friendly light.
His memoirs reveal the fact that he was apprehensive about the Red May Revolution in the beginning, and as the United Republics took shape, he was filled with disgust and contempt for the American communists. In the name of "preserving the internal security of the Union" , he opposed any and all measures that would make the USSR resemble the UASR more.
Thus it comes as no surprise that in the 50's, he began demanding "a comprehensive, unbiased investigation into the circumstances leading to the untimely demise of General Secretary Iosif Vissarionovich Stalin." He loudly proclaimed that Stalin's death was the result of a well-planned operation by the MDSS and the MRD.
The resultant scandal led to the VKP(b) expelling him in 1957.
SkaelingQueen: Well that and all the other stuff he did supporting Stalin's policies.
I love that he didn't give up on this. He became a hero, Uncle Lazar amongst NatComs like GL Rockwell because he just kept up his criticisms of how America was controlling global communism. Up to his death in 1991, too.
SolomaniCommissar: An interesting trend that the Stalin Theories buck is that usually conspiracies over a Martyr Figure tend to pick figures that are ideological ciphers so they can project their agenda on them.
Which Stalin was uh.
Not.
His positions had clearly come into a degree of alignment with the Americans, with some obvious exceptions that had more to do with the conditions in the USSR at the time than Stalin's personal politics.
I suppose it has to do with the lingering elements of the Cult of Personality and the cheese-brained nature of conspiracy theories that's already been covered upthread.
AVeryTrueDemocrat: Notably, the conspiracy originated amongst Soviet authors (some soldiers, some Stalinists) who were very sympathetic towards Stalin and largely believed that American politics and culture was slowly dismantling and replacing traditional Russian culture or was perverting communism into a strange thing that was distant from actual workers.
As for Schafer, she wasn't anywhere near where Stalin was killed. She was a translator and aide-de-camp for General Zhukov in one of the front headquarters.
GeneralZapata: I've heard of a strange possibility: Stalin wasn't killed, and, in fact, he simply faked his death. Let me explain: there is an image of a citizen registration document during the 50's, related to the citizens of DeLeon-Debs, that mentions the name "Joseph Steele". The name itself it's strange, even for a foreigner living in America. And the name sounds somewhat similar to Stalin's name. So people started to believe in the possibility of Stalin surviving the war and simply hiding himself.
The "theory" says that, during the Battle of Moscow, Stalin accepted that he was leading the Union into its collapse; his mistakes were unforgivable, and he was already old. He wanted peace, so he negotiated secretly with Soviet and American politicians to cover his death and go to America, as long as someone in whom he had confidence became the leader of the Soviet Union. After going to America, he changed his name to "Joseph Steele" and became a citizen of DeLeon-Debs, living peacefully in his last days. The problem is that there is no living copy of the supposed document that can verify if "Joseph Steele" is a real person, and there is also no information on who was the one who posted the image and shared it originally.
NestorMakhno: I mean, even if the image was real, the name "Joe Steele" was actually not that uncommon in the 30's and 40's:
[DAILY WORKER NEWSPAPER DATED "APRIL 6TH, 1936" SHOWING JOSEPH STALIN MEETING A SHORT, BALD MAN. CAPTION: "JOSEPH STALIN MEETS JOE STEELE"]
Stalin was admired enough that some changed their names to an Anglicized version.
EtriganTDemon: I think the main driver of this conspiracy theory was that the initial report of Stalin's death was fairly vague. Just a general "killed by an errant German shell". A lot of the details don't match the autopsy that was declassified after the war or eyewitness accounts, which themselves varied. Some say he died from the shrapnel, some said that he was killed by a heart attack brought on by the attack (both the report and autopsy say it was the shrapnel). Even the artillery reports varied a lot. People will say that it was definitely German artillery. The evidence seems to suggest that, but there's no real way of knowing, especially with the fact the initial report didn't mention whether the shell was definitely a German shell, just that it was likely a German shell.
Ultimately, we won't really know whether Stalin's death was intentional, if there was a conspiracy, even if it was just a spur-of-the-moment thing they covered up. The fog of war, memory, the confusion. It's hard to say how or why Stalin was killed, just that he was.
MasterD: Sheeple! Only I know how Stalin truly died:
