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Project Prometheus (Original Setting Superhero Quest)

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[X] . . . press your luck.

There's a reason the axiom, "never negotiate with hostage takers" is so rarely followed. Pay now, then return with an actual plan.
 
StarSingerBlue said:
You just made up an entire chain of events out of thin air, like when you claimed there were multiple stashes of goldnine we could access or that the press your luck option would involve handing over Noelle.

Please stop speculating out of thin air.
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I was wrong with Noelle, but even that wasn't made out of thin air, and it was instead inferred from and based on information found in the update. We knew Noelle was her enemy, and that she was valuable enough that we got to meet face to face with YQ because of her.

Fact is, we know that YQ has an army of magical girls. These magical girls need Goldnine. Goldnine is how she makes her money, and her ultimate goal is making even more money. She has an entire warehouse of goldnine, which if it disappeared or was damaged, would bust her entire operation. Thus, it's not out there to suggest that she potentially has more elsewhere because keeping all her wealth in one vulnerable spot would be pretty stupid considering the aforementioned facts found in the text.

Similarly, we know what the R-Train's motivations are, and how it responds to people that try to break into the QZ and steal goldnine. We know that it's a potential supplier of goldnine. Thus, doing anything that runs counter to that would make negotiations with it harsher. This isn't made out of thin air either.

If you want an example of something made from thin air, then there's this:
StarSingerBlue said:
She didn't know Lady Leizi was in the warehouse though.
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The idea that YQ can blow up the warehouse is an example of what you're accusing me of. We have had 0 indication that Yellow Qilin can do this. Her powers are ally empowerment and construct creation, and she's displayed no abilities that would allow her to blow something up miles away from inside another building while she's being engaged in combat with several other metahumans.
 
EternalObserver said:
So while I don't mind Going Loud winning since it is pretty valid to want to crush this over-the-top villain who thinks they have all the cards in play and prevent future victims, I also sympathize with playing it safe (to an extent) since boy do I not want some of the characters to potentially die over unlucky nat 1s. Just imagining a character die, then next scene we go to attend the Cenotaph memorial makes me feel pessimistic over odds.
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I think, for me, it's less play it safe vs dangerous and more, assuming we win with both options we get a lot more and are in a lot better position from one option than the other. Additionally, say we mess up our roll on push our luck. Qilin gets pissed, or we negotiate poorly, or someone fires a shot randomly. That's likely to lead to go loud anyway. It just seems in every respect the better option save for not having the catharsis of punching her stupid smug face right now.
 
LucidProp said:
We have had 0 indication that Yellow Qilin can do this. Her powers are ally empowerment and construct creation, and she's displayed no abilities that would allow her to blow something up miles away from inside another building while she's being engaged in combat with several other metahumans.
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Sorry, didn't see this til after I hit post, but like, you know remote detonators exist right? She doesn't need to have remote explosives powers, she's in the triad.
 
Zauberin said:
Sorry, didn't see this til after I hit post, but like, you know remote detonators exist right? She doesn't need to have remote explosives powers, she's in the triad.
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And do you have anything to support the idea that she has one right now? Or that she's prepared to pull it out when she thinks she has the upper hand and isn't expecting our talks to turn into ambush all of a sudden?

Are we even sure she has explosives planted in the warehouse, when that means if something went wrong, her entire operation combusts on itself because of an accident and the R-Train comes down on her like the hammer of god? You'd think Noelle would mention the place is rigged to blow considering how cooperative she's being with Lady Leizi on the way to her mortal enemy's base, or that one of our successful espionage rolls will tell us that YQ has something on her person.

The talk about remotely blowing up the warehouse doesn't make sense considering the situation, and OOCly, we already had Bitterman talk about how going loud isn't a trap option. This is verging on fearmongering based on nothing at all.
 
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I'm gonna be honest, as someone who thinks both options are worthwhile picks, I'm just sitting here looking at all of this crazy new discourse like:
(Seriously though, 157 new messages? Have some of you people been up all night?)

(I think you all are being too paranoid. Maybe everyone should take a step back for an hour. We'll probably be fine either way we go.)
 
LucidProp said:
And do you have anything to support the idea that she has one right now? Or that she's prepared to pull it out when she thinks she has the upper hand and isn't expecting our talks to turn into ambush all of a sudden?

Are we even sure she has explosives planted in the warehouse, when that means if something went wrong, her entire operation combusts on itself because of an accident and the R-Train comes down on her like the hammer of god? You'd think Noelle would mention the place is rigged to blow considering how cooperative she's being with Lady Leizi on the way to her mortal enemy's base.

The talk about remotely blowing up the warehouse doesn't make sense considering the situation, and OOCly, we already had Bitterman talk about how going loud isn't a trap option. This is verging on fearmongering based on nothing at all.
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And you're assuming that Going Loud will allow us to solve all our problems without any drawbacks whatsoever. If there was only a single way to get through this without any drawbacks, we'd take it.
 
ReaperofInterest said:
And you're assuming that Going Loud will allow us to solve all our problems without any drawbacks whatsoever. If there was only a single way to get through this without any drawbacks, we'd take it.
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This is a strawman. I have never once said that going loud will solve all our problems, and even acknowledged the risks involved in it.

I am arguing for going loud because I think it's better in the long term, not that it's a silverbullet.

What does this even have to do with the conversation regarding the warehouse?
 
LucidProp said:
This is a strawman. I have never once said that going loud will solve all our problems, and even acknowledged the risks involved in it.

I am arguing for going loud because I think it's better in the long term, not that it's a silverbullet.

What does this even have to do with the conversation regarding the warehouse?
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Because you think go loud will give us enough goldnine to not have any problems with the girls.
 
LucidProp said:
Quote me where I explicitly said that we'll have no problems at all. I even talked about how we're going to need to triage and ration the limited amounts of goldnine we'll acquire.
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You have not been saying that bit about rationing and you know it. You've been saying that Going Loud will mean we don't have to make any hard choices as long as we win and talk to the R-train next turn, because there's absolutely no way that Yellow Qilin could somehow make so that we don't get everything we want if we beat her.
 
Kermie said:
We'll probably be fine either way we go.
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Oh no I agree we'll be fine, I don't think we're dead off this or even that much worse off than we were before but we're basically being asked "do you want $0 and a lot of problems or $50, some different problems, and the road to some long term solutions?" and people are choosing lots of problems, which is kind of frustrating.
Also, frankly, none of this discussion matters because people aren't really reading them before voting, as you said it's been a lot of messages.
 
ReaperofInterest said:
You have not been saying that bit about rationing and you know it. You've been saying that Going Loud will mean we don't have to make any hard choices as long as we win and talk to the R-train next turn, because there's absolutely no way that Yellow Qilin could somehow make so that we don't get everything we want if we beat her.
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That's not a quote. It seems to me that your impression of my argument is coloring your perception of what I'm actually saying because I've said nothing of the sort that you're accusing me of.

Here's me talking about triage and rationing.
LucidProp said:
There will be triage and rationing of the warehouse's contents until we establish a proper supply line with the R-Train, and once we do, we can start doing research to reverse the process. It won't be enough to save everyone, but the longer this continues, the more victims the Triad are going to make, and I'd rather not let them endanger more people than they already have.
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Here's me saying that going loud isn't a silverbullet
LucidProp said:
I've never said we had a silver bullet so I have no idea where you got that. However, the fact that the Triad has more goldnine isn't pure speculation, but backed up by and inferred from what we do know of the situation. Otherwise, we could just threaten the triad to doing what we want because we know where they store all their goldnine now and could just blow it up later on.
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Here's me acknowledging the risks involved in going loud, but explaining why I prefer it.
LucidProp said:
There are risks in both options, but if we're talking long term ability to sustain a population of magical girls, then going loud now is superior as it places us in a better position to negotiate with the R-Train and limits the amount of people that need to be treated by stopping Yellow Qilin from making more victims.
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As can be seen, I've repeatedly stated that this isn't going to be easy, that there are risks involved with going loud, and that we don't magically get a happily ever after just by beating Yellow Qilin. I genuinely have no idea how you've come to the conclusion you've arrived at regarding the points I've made.
 
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And the fact of the matter is, your supposition that buying from Yellow Qilin would hurt our negotiations with the R-train is exactly that: a guess. We don't have any proof of that anymore than we have proof that Yellow Qiling can just destroy all her goldnine at once.

Buying from her may have it's issues, but it also has its short-term benefits, mainly that we can afford to actually talk with the R-train without having that ticking time bomb go off while we're negotiating.
 
ReaperofInterest said:
And the fact of the matter is, your supposition that buying from Yellow Qilin would hurt our negotiations with the R-train is exactly that: a guess. We don't have any proof of that anymore than we have proof that Yellow Qiling can just destroy all her goldnine at once.

Buying from her may have it's issues, but it also has its short-term benefits, mainly that we can afford to actually talk with the R-train without having that ticking time bomb go off while we're negotiating.
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It's not a guess? It's long been established what the R-Train's priorities are, and it's vehemently against goldnine proliferating unchecked, something we'll contribute too by buying from Yellow Qilin. If you want proof, I'll provide them for you.
Bitterman said:
Train Kept a Rollin' (AP 2, HIT 6, REPUTATION 8, OPERATIONS 9) The R-Train is the main reason goldnine hasn't proliferated unchecked throughout the world. It is also the reason most Behemoths will never get anywhere near Horizon. It is automatic, unfeeling, and uncompromisable. It has enough firepower to level nations and the ability to continue on indefinitely. And Nora believed you could talk to it. She better be right. Black Swan's extreme sensitivity to psychic fields should allow you to reason with it. Or, if you'd prefer to do it personally, Nora claimed there was equipment in her lab that could let you do so.
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Bitterman said:
"And if you already have and you have that stupid smirk on your face—you smug bitch—then have you figured out another source of goldnine? 'Cuz the R-Train won't let you take any without a fight."

. . . yes, that will be a challenge after your next dose of Ambrosia. Nora could be kinder about it however—that smug bitch.

"I have a lead on that," she says," The R-Train isn't a purely mechanical construction. If it was, then Eve would have been able to take control of it. It's partially biological with its own psychic field. Which means, if you have someone who's sensitive to those or you use equipment from my lab, you might be able to talk to it. Then cut a deal or trick it, or whatever sneaky shit you want to do."
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Generally, when you work against someone's goals, they tend to dislike you and it makes asking them for stuff very hard. I never denied the short-term benefits of buying from Golden Qilin, only that I think it's worse for everyone in the long term because it sabotages our chances of establishing long term supply from the R-Train.
 
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LucidProp said:
It's not a guess? It's long been established what the R-Train's priorities are, and it's vehemently against goldnine proliferating unchecked, something we'll contribute too by buying from Yellow Qilin. If you want proof, I'll provide them for you.


Generally, when you work against someone's goals, they tend to dislike you and it makes asking them for stuff very hard. I never denied the short-term benefits of buying from Golden Qilin, only that I think it's worse for everyone in the long term.
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And we could get on the R-train's good side again by helping to capture Monarch, AKA the biggest issue to keeping goldnine away from the public. If the R-train is intelligent enough to be negotiated with, then agreeing to help capture and get rid of Monarch will get it to calm down, especially since we're already working on that with New Dawn.

And just like your insistence that the R-train will hate us if we buy from Qilin, you have no proof that the long-term effects from Going Loud are better or worse than Push Your Luck's.
 
ReaperofInterest said:
And we could get on the R-train's good side again by helping to capture Monarch, AKA the biggest issue to keeping goldnine away from the public. If the R-train is intelligent enough to be negotiated with, then agreeing to help capture and get rid of Monarch will get it to calm down, especially since we're already working on that with New Dawn.

And just like your insistence that the R-train will hate us if we buy from Qilin, you have no proof that the long-term effects from Going Loud are better or worse than Push Your Luck's.
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I literally just showed you quotes regarding what the R-Train does. For something as zealous about goldnine as it, it's not exactly a stretch to say that it will take issue with us dealing with Yellow Qilin and acquiring goldnine stolen from right under its nose.

Capturing Monarch is going to be a really long-term project that won't be accomplished until after we meet with the R-Train. Monarch has several different mission chains that need to be cleared before we can even fight her, but the R-Train mission is something we'll want to do after we deal with the Triad because we'll want a steady supply of goldnine for the girls.

The plan to just promise to capture Monarch to improve negotiations with the R-Train can't work since it will be based on our reputation, something that's actively getting worse with every turn, and will further be damaged by buying from Yellow Qilin.
 
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