Hostile AIs are more dangerous at the same level of intelligence because they can self-modify and duplicate themselves into any hardware they find. Demons can't do either of those things and have a much harder time breeding then even humans, so they're more analogous to small groups of magical girls then super intelligent AI.Plus any breeding that's been going on in the meantime, though that at least should have been sharply curtailed when they were running patrols.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH!!! Nuke it! Nuke it! NukeItNukeItNukeIt!!
We're seriously talking about a hostile human-or-better intelligence here, with physical capabilities that easily dwarf ours; the most rational response is to nuke it from orbit, then continue nuking until we're certain the thing is dead. I had no idea the demons' intelligence could ever scale that high, and I expect the Incubators don't either, or Tokyo would--and should--already be destroyed. Hostile emergent AIs are worse than grey goo scenarios in terms of extinction level events; forget humanity, something like this is a threat to the Incubators.
Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)
- Thread starter inverted_helix
- Start date
Unitveras
"Return to nothingness!"
- Location
- Tatsumiyajima
I think that comparison was due to how this special kind of Youma could find ways to exploit their own adaptation and breeding to their advantage to get to such a point. Or in other words, while they can't do either of these things, what exactly is stopping them (other than the breeding issue of course) from hatching the idea to make a demon that can replicate the former, the latter, or both at once?
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Because they're not an AI with a cleanly designed code base and algorithms explained in the comments section running on a substrate designed for easy modification of code, they're a (mostly) naturally occurring species.
I'm glad some people have internalized how dangerous seed AIs are, but I wish they'd remember why.
Human intelligence took a billion years to evolve (well, three and a half billion). Human-level demon intelligence took, at maximum, the lifetime of the human species to evolve, about 100,000 years. That means that demonic intelligence evolved to human level somewhere on the order of 10,000 times faster than it did for organic life... and this "Class 4" has been wandering around Tokyo for the better part of a year, at least.
Who knows what this thing has done, at this point, what it has learned, what it has influenced? We're talking about a wholly alien intelligence that sees us as food, that could be as smart or smarter than us, that adapts to new situations ten thousand times faster than our species can. We already know it has expanded communication abilities far beyond the ken of the lesser demons, that it can organize and influence lesser demons, that it has unknown powers that include space warping and teleportation, and that it can affect humans in unpredictable ways.
Before something like this, we are like rabbits, trying to predict the rate and future progression of ten thousand years of human technology. For all we know, this thing has uploaded its consciousness to the Internet. It could have human thralls spanning the globe. It could be writing itself into our biology through artificial genetics. If I were running the Incubators and I found this sort of thing going on, I'd be pulling hard for glassing Earth and restocking humanity using DNA backups from a hundred years ago on a new planet, and even that might not be enough.
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It's not similar to a hostile AI scenario at all though.
This.
AIs are dangerous because they can self modify and duplicate extremely rapidly. On scales humans can scarcely imagine and once they're in the computer networks they can replicate a million times in a matter of hours and be nearly impossible to destroy.
You're kind of forgetting that it's not so much that demons are evolving that fast so much as they're cribbing notes from humans. Which means that getting to human level is much easier than getting beyond it. Demons don't have to evolve intelligence the hard way. They can just steal the notes from humans on how to do it. Fortunately human notes only extend so far on that subject.
Demon evolutionary development has more in common with some perverse intelligent design than anything natural, but it still has its limits.
I must admit I'm kind of curious even in your scenario how that wouldn't be enough. I mean even if it encoded itself into human DNA somehow, the Incubator backups from a hundred years ago wouldn't be compromised.
Even if it had crammed ten thousand years worth of human development into a year it would still be limited by being alone. Even with its beyond human physical capabilities it would still be very hard for an individual to build up necessary infrastructure for such a tech development.
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*shrugs*
Still, the Class 4 is making fools of everyone in the region, and to a lesser extent so are the Class 3s.
Still, the Class 4 is making fools of everyone in the region, and to a lesser extent so are the Class 3s.
Transhuman AIs are dangerous because they're smarter than us; they don't even need any advantages beyond that. Humans didn't need to be capable of messing with its own genetics or more rapid duplication than lesser animals to have wiped out 90% of them and put the rest in zoos. They only need to be smarter, and able to adapt faster, which this creature now does.
But it's human level intellect, not above human. It's an opponent that can think and plan, but only to the same degree a human could.
And a lone one at that. Much of the things humanity has done it has only been capable of because of collective efforts. It's easy to gloss over with sayings like "The person is smart, people are stupid" but human achievement has been a collective effort which has produced results that no individual human could ever achieve. A single modern human, even a well educated one, could not be dropped in an uninhabited region with no tools and tech themselves up to computers.
Presumably it could have stuck some nano-machines at the bottom of the ocean or something.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Smells like despair spirals again, Helix. Better feed the thread some cubes so they don't die.
- Location
- Head in the clouds
PMMM quest, Kyubey. Surprises tend to be bad. Admittedly this is the thread that has the cursed courier as the assistant to the mad scientist so I don't know why we have the dial at 11. If someone taller than me could turn it down?
Silvercrystal
Some form of jewel?
- Location
- The Silver palace of Crystal
I may be tall enough but I can only turn dials one direction... That being up.PMMM quest, Kyubey. Surprises tend to be bad. Admittedly this is the thread that has the cursed courier as the assistant to the mad scientist so I don't know why we have the dial at 11. If someone taller than me could turn it down?
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Well, I could say that human-level intelligence comes with it's own set of difficulties, namely complex emotions like pride or arrogance, and a reliance on that reasoned intellect rather than primal instinct. Likely because it has a combo platter of the right powers, it is woefully arrogant, if cunning enough to realize that and tamp down on 'play with your food'. Because it's basically omniscient in the area it functions, and controls whether or not some girls even have a power (teleporting), I wouldn't be surprised if it hasn't had to use it's instincts in a long time, and if we can catch it flat-footed, say, with the interdiction trick, or if we can figure out a way to stealth a huge number of girls onto it, it'll likely be quite a bit surprised and might misstep or get killed rather easily.
Finally, class 3 and above demons can reproduce, but it is an asexual mitotic process. This means that inherently, when a class 3 or higher spawns a new demon, both demons will be weaker for a period of time, as the original was forced to expend some of it's mass/energy/what-have-you to make the new one. If we could track them better, that would be an ideal way to go about killing them, as I believe (don't quote me) that they also have to sacrifice at least one of their powers they've adapted from their kills to make their spawn, and must produce spawn after a particular amount of kills or time, unless demon strength is high enough that they're already saturated and can continue to build up to a 4.
Ultimately I'm pretty sure we have nothing to worry about from new class 3's or 4's by reproduction, though I think the existing ones will stagnate in terms of powers since they keep bleeding it to lower DS in the region, and we can't make use of the 'weakened by mitosis' effect as part of our strategy.
Did that turn down the terror dial any?
Finally, class 3 and above demons can reproduce, but it is an asexual mitotic process. This means that inherently, when a class 3 or higher spawns a new demon, both demons will be weaker for a period of time, as the original was forced to expend some of it's mass/energy/what-have-you to make the new one. If we could track them better, that would be an ideal way to go about killing them, as I believe (don't quote me) that they also have to sacrifice at least one of their powers they've adapted from their kills to make their spawn, and must produce spawn after a particular amount of kills or time, unless demon strength is high enough that they're already saturated and can continue to build up to a 4.
Ultimately I'm pretty sure we have nothing to worry about from new class 3's or 4's by reproduction, though I think the existing ones will stagnate in terms of powers since they keep bleeding it to lower DS in the region, and we can't make use of the 'weakened by mitosis' effect as part of our strategy.
Did that turn down the terror dial any?
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I'm worried about @Elder Haman , he hasn't been on in a couple days. Hopefully @Kinematics will notice this thread is alive again and will help us plan our attack on Tokyo.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
I've got a basic idea, but I can't remember exactly how long people can handle Serena's aura in a given time period without extended withdrawal symptoms.
[X] Stalling and Denial
Serena is too great a threat for the remaining demons to even consider going near her. All that's left to do at this point is to follow the fishing plan, with the variant that Serena must be out of range of the interdiction bait area until the demon has been successfully trapped and engaged, at which point she can move forward to affect it and, should the demon survive long enough, assist in killing it. When the demons get wise to the fishing technique and learn to avoid it, we will move on to Interference.
Interference will be a sustained effort where one third of our entire combat force (and Serena's team/Mami) will push into Tokyo proper and aggressively pursue class 3 demons while they attempt to hunt for food I.E. local girls, supplying as many girls and groups as possible with cell phones to improve our response times. Interdiction will be sustained for the duration of these trips, which will last [some convoluted combination of times and rotations to prevent Serena addiction]. If more than two demons or the class 4 demon with any additional demons attempts to attack us while we're in Tokyo, we retreat outside the city proper to an area we will negotiate with Nagoya as a kill-zone and begin gearing up to go back in again.
Any and all research efforts should be redirected to figuring out the mechanics of the interdiction device and possibly requesting assistance from Hiko for the work, so that we can make a variant that affects Serena's aura similarly, allowing us to get her significantly closer before spooking demons, and handily solving a lot of her living space and combat issues.
[X] Stalling and Denial
Serena is too great a threat for the remaining demons to even consider going near her. All that's left to do at this point is to follow the fishing plan, with the variant that Serena must be out of range of the interdiction bait area until the demon has been successfully trapped and engaged, at which point she can move forward to affect it and, should the demon survive long enough, assist in killing it. When the demons get wise to the fishing technique and learn to avoid it, we will move on to Interference.
Interference will be a sustained effort where one third of our entire combat force (and Serena's team/Mami) will push into Tokyo proper and aggressively pursue class 3 demons while they attempt to hunt for food I.E. local girls, supplying as many girls and groups as possible with cell phones to improve our response times. Interdiction will be sustained for the duration of these trips, which will last [some convoluted combination of times and rotations to prevent Serena addiction]. If more than two demons or the class 4 demon with any additional demons attempts to attack us while we're in Tokyo, we retreat outside the city proper to an area we will negotiate with Nagoya as a kill-zone and begin gearing up to go back in again.
Any and all research efforts should be redirected to figuring out the mechanics of the interdiction device and possibly requesting assistance from Hiko for the work, so that we can make a variant that affects Serena's aura similarly, allowing us to get her significantly closer before spooking demons, and handily solving a lot of her living space and combat issues.
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I'm glad this is back.
On the hunting Plan, it sounds good, mabe have Kaoru there to dampen the Grief Aura.
I think we have one Artefact + Guard on stand by so it shoud be possible.
I'm a bit curious if we coud do other things, maybe fuse Clairvoyance and Teleport to "kidnappe"one Demon and then pin it with a Artefact.
Or maybe turn our Tandem Teleport Block into a Charm, after focusing it to a few feet, and pin it on a Demon. If I got the Function right, then Hiko's Artefact completely block's Teleports, while our Spell disrupts the Targeting part of the Teleport. That's why the Demons appear/land outside of the Barrier. So that shoud limit the Demon's teleport to the Area inside the Charm Barrier.
Did I get this right, @inverted_helix ?
On the hunting Plan, it sounds good, mabe have Kaoru there to dampen the Grief Aura.
I think we have one Artefact + Guard on stand by so it shoud be possible.
I'm a bit curious if we coud do other things, maybe fuse Clairvoyance and Teleport to "kidnappe"one Demon and then pin it with a Artefact.
Or maybe turn our Tandem Teleport Block into a Charm, after focusing it to a few feet, and pin it on a Demon. If I got the Function right, then Hiko's Artefact completely block's Teleports, while our Spell disrupts the Targeting part of the Teleport. That's why the Demons appear/land outside of the Barrier. So that shoud limit the Demon's teleport to the Area inside the Charm Barrier.
Did I get this right, @inverted_helix ?
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Our variety of teleport block is a literal wall that prevents teleportation through it. If you're on one side of it, you will not be able to teleport to the other side of it for any reason. Additionally, charms store one-offs of spells, not perpetual casts like the interdiction wall. It would last, at most, for one teleport (assuming that pinning the charm to the demon doesn't take the charm with the demon, making it useless. Such charms would be helpful if they could trigger in reaction to a demon trying to teleport in, but that's impossible since they leave nothing to trigger off of when teleporting.
I've wondered about that too, they are the two main plan makers for this quest. And generally the most common posters in general but haven't even posted.
Trying to teleport a resisting magical target would be a difficult research action (pretty much every setting has a saving throw on resisting a teleport because otherwise you just teleport all your enemies to space or something), trying to remote teleport without physical contact would itself be another research action. Not likely something you can develop on this time scale.
As to functionality, you really don't have enough understanding to say how they work.
As to pinning a demon with one of your charms Powerofmind has it right:
This is accurate in all respects. (The parenthetical though would be tricky and dependent on more details.)
I can tell you that reverse engineering the interdiction artifact will be the sort of long term high cost research project that you'd need the resources you expect to gain after controlling Tokyo to make at all reasonable.
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Ah, it's back. I'm here, but have been distracted the last few days. Not sure if I'll have time right now to go back and review things, but I should at least be able to get on it later tonight.