Meguca Micro Empire Quest (PMMM)
- Thread starter inverted_helix
- Start date
Can we really stretch our group that thin, though?
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I don't think we have a choice.
True enough.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Well, keep in mind that Hino united a bunch of groups after a class 3 crisis. We probably aren't that much smaller than any of the individual groups that constitute Nagoya Core.
Hmmm.. that's another point in Nagoya's balance, they have experience uniting a city after a class 3 demon crisis.
On the other hand that might mean they already have a playbook that is outdated by the crop rotation scheme...
Also, It looks like Kofu is probably it's own organization. So I don't think we will be expanding to Kofu. Tokyo is the big prize anyway.
On the other hand that might mean they already have a playbook that is outdated by the crop rotation scheme...
Also, It looks like Kofu is probably it's own organization. So I don't think we will be expanding to Kofu. Tokyo is the big prize anyway.
Maybe, maybe not. We'll have to take it one turn at a time, and we'll be putting out fires the whole time, I suspect.
OK, that Feudal Lord plan Haman was suggesting was our best option? Where we divide up Tokyo as spoils? Yeah, that just became a horrendously bad idea.
We cannot afford to play feudal lord when there's already another feudal lord on the playing board, who is significantly more powerful than we are. If we give Nagoya Tokyo territory rights (and we would have to), they're going to completely stomp the competition. They have the manpower to spare to cover far more territory than the other little players, which means they get the lion's share of Tokyo, which means they have more resources than anyone else could possibly compete with. We will end up with them having significant territory on either side of us, allowing them to gradually smother us. No worries about a charismatic leader uniting Tokyo; we'll be handing that to them on a silver platter.
Thus, we have to set up Tokyo as an independent power. Yet at the same time, we can't leave it as one mass territory, because the concerns about that are still somewhat valid. Which leaves only the option of discrete states: give them control over Tokyo territory (and thus keeping the other powers out), without giving anyone enough territory to become a major power all on their own. Force interaction through diplomacy instead of conquest, to shift the overall tone.
We cannot afford to play feudal lord when there's already another feudal lord on the playing board, who is significantly more powerful than we are. If we give Nagoya Tokyo territory rights (and we would have to), they're going to completely stomp the competition. They have the manpower to spare to cover far more territory than the other little players, which means they get the lion's share of Tokyo, which means they have more resources than anyone else could possibly compete with. We will end up with them having significant territory on either side of us, allowing them to gradually smother us. No worries about a charismatic leader uniting Tokyo; we'll be handing that to them on a silver platter.
Thus, we have to set up Tokyo as an independent power. Yet at the same time, we can't leave it as one mass territory, because the concerns about that are still somewhat valid. Which leaves only the option of discrete states: give them control over Tokyo territory (and thus keeping the other powers out), without giving anyone enough territory to become a major power all on their own. Force interaction through diplomacy instead of conquest, to shift the overall tone.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Ideally we get all of Tokyo after Serena saves the city. But it probably won't be that easy.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
I suggest a system not unlike an invitation-model tacked onto the general management model of the HRE or pre-civil war Union.
We've already technically started. Seto is effectively a local prince for the annex, and the only reason we haven't done that for the huge central territory is because we can still administrate the hunting rotation effectively as is.
All we'd have to do is make it official and set up the rules just so to ensure it's tempting enough to join.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
The HRE was a dysfunctional mess, and should avoid modelling ourselves after it whenever possible.
Bit of a question @inverted_helix: Does the Rotating Tactics info we give out use the 0.66 (edit: fixed) multiplier, or the 0.60 multiplier? I'm not sure whether the lower modifier is only valid due to the extensive analysis we did on our territory.
Last edited:
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
I suppose you're right, but there's not a lot of government models that even attempt to make a functional system for uniting a bunch of disparate individual governments, other than the United States, and that's too restrictive and bureaucratic in nature for what I'm trying to tease out a complete charter for.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I assume the originall .66 modifier is the thing we give out.
Agreed; I mean, we didn't even finish discovering the better one before the trade, did we?
Kinda wishing we could track down Homura now, except Mami will be hoping for this one:
Excuse me what?
You mean about dividing Tokyo up between members of a Grand Alliance so that we could get Kesi to come clear Tokyo for us?
Actually, this is exactly the scenario that made me move for this. The whole point would be to get other organizations involved so that there is a balance of power, making hostilities something to be avoided.
I'm not getting how this new inforamtion makes a difference.
Also, I don't really agree with labeling my plan "Feudal Lord" as you are implying a lot of things that don't have to be true. My plan was modeled more on the division of Berlin after WWII by the allies by the way. And as horrible as the resulting conflicts were, I would point out that a full war never broke out.
At no point did I suggest that we play feudal lord. Ever. Not once.
Every single time I have talked about Tokyo it has been about fully incorporating our territory there into the greater whole. Also, we have no idea what other large organizations there might be in Japan. If Osaka is organized it would be the equal of Nagoya. Sendai, Nagaskai, and Niigata are all smaller than Nagoya, but of significant size. Even Tomoya and us are big enough that we could not be ignored. History is full of large states being constrained by coalitions of smaller states.
That said, I would agree that clearing Tokyo our self without requiring a Grand Alliance has become a far more attractive option.
How does that follow.
I really am not following your thought process here, and I think you ought to spell out your assumptions, because my conclusion is the opposite.
We have to incorporate Tokyo into the Serenes. Why would would we set up Tokyo as a separate power? That's just a huge waste of our resources for little return. It doesn't benefit us, it doesn't benefit the Tokyo girls, it doesn't benefit humanity.
I don't get why you are so afraid of the Serenes becoming powerful.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Nahp. Word of God that it seemed like pointless grimderping for Homura to decide to soil and spit on Madoka's wish the way it was done in rebellion. She's depressed, but she's not gone to 'I hate god enough to depose her.'Agreed; I mean, we didn't even finish discovering the better one before the trade, did we?
Kinda wishing we could track down Homura now, except Mami will be hoping for this one:
and we'll more likely end up with this one:
It's not as bad as you might think, they're going to be a similar size to the Coalition (30-40 girls) and they don't have the Coalition's fear of us, which makes them easier to absorb on the whole.
I think what he's getting at is that he doesn't want to try divvying up Tokyo among outsider groups Germany-style, because with Nagoya being so obscenely large and powerful it's just going to mean that it swallows up everyone else's share by virtue of being 3-5 times bigger than everyone else, followed by it swallowing up the Serenes because we're then caught inside its huge enveloping territory.
Not really what I'm getting at. What I meant was that Mami will be going into the recruitment effort expecting a girl, even if a powerful one; she won't be expecting Loop-fatigue Murderface.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Homura has spent the past three years deliberately trying to work past all her loop-fatigue, and even if they keep coming back, coming up with new and interesting ways to murder incubators is a great source of catharsis. The subtle changes to her powers, further evidence of Madoka's personal interest in her case, should be enough to basically give her a sense of content security, knowing that what amounts to god has a personal interest in her life.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Aye, we'd have to get 'very lucky' as we've been told, to get her to come with us. Even spending every omake bonus would probably not get it above 30%, and she'd probably want to keep roaming after just to not be around Mitakihara and the memories. Maybe once we've managed to stabilize around a quarter of Japan on the whole we could start trying, though.
If she were even close to well-adjusted she'd already be back in Japan; it certainly wouldn't be a challenge to get her to listen to Mami, if only because she wouldn't want to see Madoka's family in danger. Nah; right now Homura is way, way burned out; we probably won't see her for years yet, and if we do it'll probably be right before we get in a fight with the Incubators or something.
I assume we gave the .66 out in trade to Nagoya and earlier groups, but that we have been giving the .6 to new groups that we meet. Unless helix is going to require that we update our pamphlets?
What? Why?
Why are people suggesting these complex systems... is everyone here into model UN or something?
Practical politics are in play not idealized systems. We need to find a framework that works for our situation, but should be focused on constructing a system based on needs. We can make comparisons to other systems but those are analogies to explain why the system proposed could work.
Here is what I am thinking of:
Step 0: We met with Serena to welcome her and begin the plan to save Tokyo.
Step 1: Serena clears a section of Tokyo. She (and her associates) hand out propaganda for the Serenes including directions on sustainable farming tech, and our contact information. She also distributes some of the grief cubes dropped by the class 3 demons to the surviving local girls. Serena then moves on to the next section of Tokyo.
Step 2: Our team of girls (20+ vets, Mami and Taya/Seto) sweep into the cleared section. The girls there had this rush of hope, and are now feeling a little let down. We start meeting with them all and talking to them about the plan the Serenes have to make sure nothing like this happens in Tokyo again. We assess the demon strength in the area, and start developing hunting plans.
The Tokyo girls can be divided into four categories:
A: Solo/Duo girls (Vets and Greens): Most of these are probably greens contracted by the Incubators in their attempts to replace the losses.
B: Girls in small groups (4 to 8 girls): These are probably going to be mostly vets, with a few greens attached. Might have a few small grudges against other girls, but probably nothing major.
C: Large organizations: Probably are only a handful of these, and probably focused around a core of Elites, but possibly a vet dominated organization might exist. Probably very dispersed in organization, operating in small cells in an attempt to avoid being killed.
D: Elites: Each of these girls will probably have their own situation, they might be part of a small group (probably the leader), or possibly solo.
B: Girls in small groups (4 to 8 girls): These are probably going to be mostly vets, with a few greens attached. Might have a few small grudges against other girls, but probably nothing major.
C: Large organizations: Probably are only a handful of these, and probably focused around a core of Elites, but possibly a vet dominated organization might exist. Probably very dispersed in organization, operating in small cells in an attempt to avoid being killed.
D: Elites: Each of these girls will probably have their own situation, they might be part of a small group (probably the leader), or possibly solo.
The first two groups of girls we can approach the same way:
We get all the girls in an area (say a 50 cube area), gather them into a meeting to meet with Mami. She presents essentially an updated pitch of the one she made Turn 1, about the dangers of class 3 demons from over hunting, and the benefits of organization.
Before anyone can argue, Mami then breaks out the charts, with our initial DS assessment of the area, and explains exactly how many cubes can be extracted while hunting down to DS 0. If the count of the girls in the area means there won't be enough to cover the girls, we will put up some cubes to help out for the first month (that should suddenly get everyone's attention and silence any dissent temporarily).
Then we explain that the safest hunting is in packs, "until we can afford armor" (now we are identifying with them, and dangling the idea of armor in front of them). We address the small group girls and express the good news that they already have experience with this, assure them that they will still be working together in their groups, and ask them if they will share some of their experience with the girls who don't know how to hunt in packs Then we address the solo girls and point out that they are going to need to start hunting in packs, so they should make sure to get to know the people around them.
Then we tell them how many girls will be needed to hunt in this specific area while going down to DS 0, and the expected long term hunting team size after that. At this point we explain the benefit of a dispatch team, and suggest that they need a three person dispatch team to reduce the hunting team size to such and such number of girls.
Then we explain the benefit of a dispatch team requires owning cellphones. Tell the girls that we are willing to take on the cost of a cellphone plan for the first month to help them get started (assuming roughly 30 to 40 girls in a 50 girl area, this should be on average $350 per a 50 size group area, (and a total of around $12,000 for all of Tokyo). Then we explain that Chiyo (insert name of whatever vet we give this job too) here is going to be passing around a signup sheet, if they will just put their name down, whether or not they need a cell phone or not, and what color they would like the case to be, and then Chiyo will arrange to go get the cellphones and distribute them in a couple days. (Basically this is now getting a bit of buy in, they are signing up for something, and the cellphone serves as a nice enticement).
At this point point out that girls with clairvoyant wish magic tend to be the best at dispatch duty. Ask if any girls here are clairvoyant, and if they would be willing to step up and join the dispatch team? (This is another chance to get some buy in).
Now as we said, we are going to pay for the first month of your cellphone service, but we're making this offer for all of Tokyo, and we can't afford to keep on paying the cellphone bill forever, which means you are all going to need a source of money. Explain that in the Serenes what we do is assign certain girls jobs to earn money, and they then share that money with all of the other girls, while the girls hunting agree to provide them with grief cubes. T
he Serenes have a courier business, as it's one of the easiest ways for a magical girl to make money. Our offer is to expand this courier business to Tokyo, and we will hire # of girls from your area, and money they make you can then use to pay for the cellphones, and eventually rent apartments, or even a house. Purchases of armor is also something we will want to do. (If we don't have the money for the expansion we might have to instead just assign # of girls to hunt for jobs.)
In the Serenes our rule is for the greenest of girls to be the ones assigned mundane jobs while the veterans hunt. But this is a commitment that you have to make. Are you willing to agree to provide cubes to the girls that work, and the girls that work are you willing to give your money that you earn to everyone else to pay for things the group needs? Ask for vote to see if they agree. (This is basically when we get the big buy in, even if they vote no then they have already accepted the premise that they decide things as a group).
If they say yes, okay great. How many girls have signed up only a month ago? Continue until you find the # of girls assigned to jobs. Tell them to please talk to Chiyo after meeting, and she will begin the arrangements to have them get jobs, take their names down, set up bank accounts, etc.
If they say no, oh well too bad. We'll still pay for the first month of cell phones, express the hope that after experiencing how useful a dispatch team is for a month that they will reconsider. (Assuming we are trying to expand the courier service, have Chiyo approach the greenest greens after the meeting, if we have enough room to subsidize them with cubes, maybe hire them anyway? Except in this case their money would go to the main Serene group).
Okay, so that has worked out money, then what are they going to do with the rest of their available time? Point out that the Serenes have an extensive training program to increase hunting safety, and that we have not had a hunting death in over a year and a half (is it two years now?). Give a list of all the training that we will offer. Then point to another of our vets, Azusa, she will be staying here with Chiyo, and she will help you with all this training for the next month. We will be starting with Pack Hunting tactics. Ask the small groups if they be sure to help with the teaching, so that everyone will become skilled in this and reduce the danger of hunting.
Close up with thanks for meeting with us, and helping us establish a system for hunting so that the class 3 demon threat never happens again. Ask them to please contact Chiyo or Azusa if they have any questions, or they can even contact you directly if they need help. You will be mingling with every one after the meeting if anyone wants to talk with you.
The whole presentation should be under 30 minutes, another hour of Mami wandering around mingling, and then onto the next stop. We ought to be able to do say 12 of these in two weeks (or about 600 territory, so a little less than half of Tokyo), and that includes followup visits to soothe ruffled feathers, and talk intransigent girls into cooperation.
Basically we Bavarian Fire Drill them into working together BECAUSE CLASS 3 DEMONS and then as they work together the advantages are so huge that people just naturally flow into continuing to do it. Next month we help them plan that month's actions, help them get apartments/house, and then at the end of the second month we pop the question of why don't they just join the Serenes formally? Get access to our cool headquarters for special training, get allowances, get to have us continue supporting them instead of having to figure it all out themselves. We'll propose a plan to roll out shields and then bikes to every girl, etc.
Before anyone can argue, Mami then breaks out the charts, with our initial DS assessment of the area, and explains exactly how many cubes can be extracted while hunting down to DS 0. If the count of the girls in the area means there won't be enough to cover the girls, we will put up some cubes to help out for the first month (that should suddenly get everyone's attention and silence any dissent temporarily).
Then we explain that the safest hunting is in packs, "until we can afford armor" (now we are identifying with them, and dangling the idea of armor in front of them). We address the small group girls and express the good news that they already have experience with this, assure them that they will still be working together in their groups, and ask them if they will share some of their experience with the girls who don't know how to hunt in packs Then we address the solo girls and point out that they are going to need to start hunting in packs, so they should make sure to get to know the people around them.
Then we tell them how many girls will be needed to hunt in this specific area while going down to DS 0, and the expected long term hunting team size after that. At this point we explain the benefit of a dispatch team, and suggest that they need a three person dispatch team to reduce the hunting team size to such and such number of girls.
Then we explain the benefit of a dispatch team requires owning cellphones. Tell the girls that we are willing to take on the cost of a cellphone plan for the first month to help them get started (assuming roughly 30 to 40 girls in a 50 girl area, this should be on average $350 per a 50 size group area, (and a total of around $12,000 for all of Tokyo). Then we explain that Chiyo (insert name of whatever vet we give this job too) here is going to be passing around a signup sheet, if they will just put their name down, whether or not they need a cell phone or not, and what color they would like the case to be, and then Chiyo will arrange to go get the cellphones and distribute them in a couple days. (Basically this is now getting a bit of buy in, they are signing up for something, and the cellphone serves as a nice enticement).
At this point point out that girls with clairvoyant wish magic tend to be the best at dispatch duty. Ask if any girls here are clairvoyant, and if they would be willing to step up and join the dispatch team? (This is another chance to get some buy in).
Now as we said, we are going to pay for the first month of your cellphone service, but we're making this offer for all of Tokyo, and we can't afford to keep on paying the cellphone bill forever, which means you are all going to need a source of money. Explain that in the Serenes what we do is assign certain girls jobs to earn money, and they then share that money with all of the other girls, while the girls hunting agree to provide them with grief cubes. T
he Serenes have a courier business, as it's one of the easiest ways for a magical girl to make money. Our offer is to expand this courier business to Tokyo, and we will hire # of girls from your area, and money they make you can then use to pay for the cellphones, and eventually rent apartments, or even a house. Purchases of armor is also something we will want to do. (If we don't have the money for the expansion we might have to instead just assign # of girls to hunt for jobs.)
In the Serenes our rule is for the greenest of girls to be the ones assigned mundane jobs while the veterans hunt. But this is a commitment that you have to make. Are you willing to agree to provide cubes to the girls that work, and the girls that work are you willing to give your money that you earn to everyone else to pay for things the group needs? Ask for vote to see if they agree. (This is basically when we get the big buy in, even if they vote no then they have already accepted the premise that they decide things as a group).
If they say yes, okay great. How many girls have signed up only a month ago? Continue until you find the # of girls assigned to jobs. Tell them to please talk to Chiyo after meeting, and she will begin the arrangements to have them get jobs, take their names down, set up bank accounts, etc.
If they say no, oh well too bad. We'll still pay for the first month of cell phones, express the hope that after experiencing how useful a dispatch team is for a month that they will reconsider. (Assuming we are trying to expand the courier service, have Chiyo approach the greenest greens after the meeting, if we have enough room to subsidize them with cubes, maybe hire them anyway? Except in this case their money would go to the main Serene group).
Okay, so that has worked out money, then what are they going to do with the rest of their available time? Point out that the Serenes have an extensive training program to increase hunting safety, and that we have not had a hunting death in over a year and a half (is it two years now?). Give a list of all the training that we will offer. Then point to another of our vets, Azusa, she will be staying here with Chiyo, and she will help you with all this training for the next month. We will be starting with Pack Hunting tactics. Ask the small groups if they be sure to help with the teaching, so that everyone will become skilled in this and reduce the danger of hunting.
Close up with thanks for meeting with us, and helping us establish a system for hunting so that the class 3 demon threat never happens again. Ask them to please contact Chiyo or Azusa if they have any questions, or they can even contact you directly if they need help. You will be mingling with every one after the meeting if anyone wants to talk with you.
The whole presentation should be under 30 minutes, another hour of Mami wandering around mingling, and then onto the next stop. We ought to be able to do say 12 of these in two weeks (or about 600 territory, so a little less than half of Tokyo), and that includes followup visits to soothe ruffled feathers, and talk intransigent girls into cooperation.
Basically we Bavarian Fire Drill them into working together BECAUSE CLASS 3 DEMONS and then as they work together the advantages are so huge that people just naturally flow into continuing to do it. Next month we help them plan that month's actions, help them get apartments/house, and then at the end of the second month we pop the question of why don't they just join the Serenes formally? Get access to our cool headquarters for special training, get allowances, get to have us continue supporting them instead of having to figure it all out themselves. We'll propose a plan to roll out shields and then bikes to every girl, etc.
Large Organizations we will have to approach individually as diplomacy actions. Focus first on trying to settle boundaries, establish safe hunting practices, and get an agreement not to overhunt anymore. See if they need any help with grief cubes, that sort of thing.
Maybe we propose some sort of affiliation arrangement that is more attractive than the vassal arrangement Nagoya has? Possibly if any of the 50 area groups we organize reject formal assimilation, we offer them the affiliation instead?
Elites I think we similarly will approach individually perhaps as a single diplomacy action? Basically, we need to find out what each Elite wants, and can we offer it to them as a way to entice them to join us.
Other than specifying the affiliation model I don't think we need to plan anything elaborate to artificially construct a political order in Tokyo. It will develop naturally, and will probably be messy, but I think we can handle it.
Last edited: