Bailey Matutine
(Verified Pooka)
- Location
- Pelican Town
- Pronouns
- They/Them
And it ceases to be good in a scenario in which that job does not exist.
Mana Based System - FoZ/Gamer
- Thread starter minuseven
- Start date
And it ceases to be good in a scenario in which that job does not exist.
I'm not surprised that Derf matches a historical sword type, there were so many swords used in the Western world that there isn't much in terms of practical sword design that hasn't been done.So, Derflinger.
This:
Totally meant to be a katana analog?
... yeah, duh. They even outright replace him with a katana later! 'Cause KATANAS ARE BETTER (hint: not true).
But I don't want a katana in my story! This is magical Europe in the 17th century! Why a bloody katana!? So, I could have replaced him with a cutlass... but it was too short. A saber was too curved. The backsword was my best bet, even if it was more of a late 17th century sword rather than early 17th according to my research. Derflinger could be an early form of backsword, heavier and more cumbersome, designed for mounted combat like backswords and thus the downwards slash. Which does gain a bit from having a heavier sword.
And then... I stumbled upon this:
The sword the guy on the left is using. That's a Messer. It means knife! Because it was forged like a knife so no matter how big and 'sword' it was, it could be used by commoners! Technically! Very German sword. It also has the großes Messer and Kriegsmesser variations. The Big Knife and the War Knife, aka longsword and hand-and-a-half sword, the later used by soldiers mostly. Derflinger is now a Kriegsmesser. And he's glorious.
He's more or less like this modern reproduction by Albion Swords, the Knecht:
I like swords. <3
Also, STR requirement is now 20.
Oh, katanas are absolutely stunningly good swords... considering the shoddy raw materials japanese swordsmiths had to deal with. Europeans dealt with that problem by getting better iron, or when not available, doing the same gimmick of mixing different types of iron in a blade to compensate for the materials(pattern welding). But the first option simply made for a better blade to begin with.
Actually the the whole ultimate sword (for everything purpose) discussion even in fantasy genres tends to be a bit pointless. I think there were like at least 5 different methods for the better quality katanas and at least that many completely different methods for sharp and pointy stuff for European. Even if you were to make them from identical manufacturing processes, the shapes are for different purposes as well. It is like declaring in the modern world what is the ultimate hammer. If you declare the claw hammer is the perfect hammer then there are plenty of hammer uses where a different design hammer would be far getter (like smoothing out dents like a ball peen hammer or more gentle impacts with a rubber mallet). Even in fantasy genre, making good magic sword might need completely different mythic ingredients and appearance to suit a given purpose (like a holy sword compared to a sword of flames).
Speaking of Derflinger, I wonder if Louise could later have him re-made (without harming his magics) into a shape and form suitable for her size, strength, weight, and presumed eventual combat style that can still use magic appropriately. Given that he can rust and be sharpened (which means removal of material along the blade), there should be concern about replacing the lost materials without losing the magic. If so, then there might be a way to change the form as well to suit her better.
Speaking of Derflinger, I wonder if Louise could later have him re-made (without harming his magics) into a shape and form suitable for her size, strength, weight, and presumed eventual combat style that can still use magic appropriately. Given that he can rust and be sharpened (which means removal of material along the blade), there should be concern about replacing the lost materials without losing the magic. If so, then there might be a way to change the form as well to suit her better.
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So there are no good swords.
I never really learned this bit of Japnese culture/philosophy until I read this comic. And here I see this entire debate re-stating it.
Japanese comic, read speech bubbles right to left.
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BlackoutSampler
So Easily Forgotten
I wonder if Louise is going to be insistent on calling Derf a knife now that her combat prowess gets a hefty bonus for doing so.
"oh ho, whats this? Little Louise is playing with such a big rusty hunk of metal fancying herself a swordswoman. don't you know that it is guys that are supposed to compensate for their shortcomings by buying long and hard swords?"
"shut up Zerbrst! I-I just wanted to get something to protect myself incase I run out of willpower. And for your information it is a knife, not a sword!"
"Really now? Because last I checked, knives didn't require two-hands to wield and weigh half as much as you do. Although that isn't saying much in your case. Don't worry, I'm sure if you eat healthy and drink your milk every day, someday you'll be able to handle any size of 'sword' you want to work out your frustrations."
"Wha-! I do not need to work out any 'frustrations'! and this is a knife! it has only one edge like every other knife!"
" I'm going to have to agree with lass with the big tits, I'm a sword. I've know quite a few knives in my time and they always came up short in the long run."
"Quiet! Derf, You are a Knife! Zerbrst, you are a harlot! I am busy training! So leave me alone!"
"fine, fine. I leave you to play with your 'knife' alone. just don't forget to wash up, don't want you coming to class late while sweaty and with your clothes rumpled, people might get the wrong idea."
"oh ho, whats this? Little Louise is playing with such a big rusty hunk of metal fancying herself a swordswoman. don't you know that it is guys that are supposed to compensate for their shortcomings by buying long and hard swords?"
"shut up Zerbrst! I-I just wanted to get something to protect myself incase I run out of willpower. And for your information it is a knife, not a sword!"
"Really now? Because last I checked, knives didn't require two-hands to wield and weigh half as much as you do. Although that isn't saying much in your case. Don't worry, I'm sure if you eat healthy and drink your milk every day, someday you'll be able to handle any size of 'sword' you want to work out your frustrations."
"Wha-! I do not need to work out any 'frustrations'! and this is a knife! it has only one edge like every other knife!"
" I'm going to have to agree with lass with the big tits, I'm a sword. I've know quite a few knives in my time and they always came up short in the long run."
"Quiet! Derf, You are a Knife! Zerbrst, you are a harlot! I am busy training! So leave me alone!"
"fine, fine. I leave you to play with your 'knife' alone. just don't forget to wash up, don't want you coming to class late while sweaty and with your clothes rumpled, people might get the wrong idea."
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Nice demo... but would have gone quite a bit differently if he'd swung the katana properly. (Hint: Katana weren't intended as slashing weapons.)Indeed.
Katana vs Longsword
That said, the weapons debates here are getting increasingly off-topic. Discussions of the historical factors influencing Eastern versus Western weapons design and fighting styles are utterly fascinating in a way, but could we please have them in the appropriate forum, in a relevant thread?
On the contrary, there are magic skill books aplenty. She just won't be using them unless a work around is found.
Hmm... It would probably be best for Louise to be forced to scribe a new scroll (probably a different one, as this sounds sufficiently obscure that they likely don't have another on hand) as punishment, rather than just paying for a new copy.
On the other hand, depending on how paranoid the librarians might be (this is a school where all of the students are fully capable for some pretty destructive magics), they could have originals stored away somewhere for scrolls, and only have copies out for students to use, certain that the copy will be destroyed at some point, and will need to be replaced on a depressingly regular basis.
Actually, presuming movable type (but not custom picture plates), if diagrams are necessary to count as a skill book, then there wouldn't be any skill books at all, only skill scrolls, as the diagrams would need to be copied by hand.
On the other hand, depending on how paranoid the librarians might be (this is a school where all of the students are fully capable for some pretty destructive magics), they could have originals stored away somewhere for scrolls, and only have copies out for students to use, certain that the copy will be destroyed at some point, and will need to be replaced on a depressingly regular basis.
Actually, presuming movable type (but not custom picture plates), if diagrams are necessary to count as a skill book, then there wouldn't be any skill books at all, only skill scrolls, as the diagrams would need to be copied by hand.
On Louise being dommed: It was a a Germane book on swordfighting, and furthermore, swordfighting with a "commoner" type of sword. She might get away with the accidental destruction of said book without even a slap on the wrist other than maybe having to replace it given how said book would probably be seen.
On a side note, an anecdote (while it's repeated often enough, I haven't managed to find an actual proper source for it) for why these swords are shaped like that and are named "knives": Swords were illegal to carry for most people (aka, commoners). But at the same time the legal definition of knives didn't actually limited their size. By making something shaped like a knife (single edged, some differences in the grip and tang, maybe a few others), it'd technically be knife, and thus legal to carry.
On a side note, an anecdote (while it's repeated often enough, I haven't managed to find an actual proper source for it) for why these swords are shaped like that and are named "knives": Swords were illegal to carry for most people (aka, commoners). But at the same time the legal definition of knives didn't actually limited their size. By making something shaped like a knife (single edged, some differences in the grip and tang, maybe a few others), it'd technically be knife, and thus legal to carry.
Louise could probably get away with sweeping the dust under the rug, both literally and metaphorically, but I don't think Karin's daughter would shirk a, in her mind at least, well deserved punishment.
*Casually blows dust below book shelf.
*Walks away like nothing had happened.
*time
*time
*She graduates.
*Someone notices there is a book missing, damn it.
*Walks away like nothing had happened.
*time
*time
*She graduates.
*Someone notices there is a book missing, damn it.
- Location
- Oulu
Bah! Both european and eastern swords are useless against 100-ft tall armored behemoths! Too short, too thin, too lightweight! You need something that's at LEAST seven feet long, weighing fifty pounds, made from a magical material for it to be considered a proper sword! Not to mention a decent behemoth-slayer will go right through either european or eastern sword, proving it's innate superiority!
...
Silly arguments are silly.
...
Silly arguments are silly.
Not after the last update. She went through countless books describing specific magic spells before reaching the mundane skill section. And only once she picked up that book about swords did she get the first pop-up. If this story was going to contain magic skill books, they would have been in that library.
Whatever makes you so sure, you are either mistaken or the author did not think the last scene through.
It was a subtle difference in the way i interpreted the wording. Rather than skill books that teach magic, i viewed it as books that magically teach skill.
- Location
- Portugal
- Pronouns
- She/They
Ripping pages off a book!? What kind of barbarian are you!?
Also, I don't see how <Ripped-off page> translates into <Skill Book>. Scrolls and manuscripts are the books of their times but loose sheets? Eh.
Bailey Matutine
(Verified Pooka)
- Location
- Pelican Town
- Pronouns
- They/Them
There are good show swords, and good display swords, and once combat on space ships becomes a thing, there may again be good combat swords, to prevent punching holes in the only thing keeping the air in. But until then it's hold-out knives and projectile weapons.
Conceptualist
Best Mega Sceptile
- Location
- I'm on the internet. Duh.
Link? Please?
- Location
- Seattle, WA
The Unconquered Sun nods approvingly.
Also, given the history, Kirche may be the only one who does agree that Derf is obviously a knife
.
Dopplerdee
Accident Prone(Yes the caps are necessary)
- Location
- Happy Place
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Derf is a spirit more than he's a physical sword, destroy him and he'll just jump ship. So yes he should be modifiable with no damage to his magic.
Imagine how Louise would react after grinding her Big Knife skill to uber tiers when after facing an opponent that breaks her sword Derf just skips into a more practical weapon like a rapier.
Louise:............ WHY DIDN'T YOU DO THAT EARLIER!!!
Vorpal
Neither a dandy nor a clown
- Location
- 76 Totter's Lane, Shoreditch, London, EC1 5EG
Legally, the Messer was a 'knife' mostly because the tang/shank goes along the length of the handle (i.e., visible from the outside), rather than inside the handle to be affixed with a pommel. Hence, it's a 'knife' rather than a 'sword'; you can see that knife-like handle in the reconstruction that minuseven posted here. Functionally, it was just a legalistic smokescreen to sidestep laws about who could carry a sword and who couldn't.
This makes me wonder whether Derf needs to get a different handle in order to count as a 'knife' for the purposes of the combat bonuses or whether he already happens to have it.