*Dryly* That's literally against the Rules of the entire Board. Rule 3.
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Libra's Lament, a Magical Girl Quest [Complete]
- Thread starter Naron
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Earth
I think stating you want to go against what someone wants to do out of spite is also against the Rules, also Rule 3.
Not really. Rule 3 is about insulting an argument vs. insulting a person. Or something to that effect.
... I'm probably straddling the line really more than anything, because it's their arguments on this page making me say that. Also, as I pointed out above, the mods don't care. And that's the only one I can vouch for having been the one who made the report, but I'm sure there have to be more as well.
I suppose I shouldn't have made that first response post to you at all, but oh well.
DarkKing98
Certified Village Idiot
- Location
- USA
Huh. We missed out on 300 EXP. ...wonder when we can strike up a rematch. Probably won't be for a few months at most. In which case, we shall reclaim our lost pride!
you can only get double exp the first time
@Naron can i ask why our Existence Bonus didn't proc for defence?
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DarkKing98
Certified Village Idiot
- Location
- USA
Damn it.
Exactly how i felt.
- Location
- behind you
I give you always valid arguments and even try to make a compromise. The funny thing is when I ask you of your opinions or plans when I explain scenarios, they are most times ignored. Therefore please start a conversation with me when it bothers you and do it with arguments that arent just: within CW/any-other-person-quest it is that way. Besides that i just write that much because i try to convince other from my standpoint. That is (at last for my understanding) the core of a Quest: discuss and decide together. (Maybe that was too much again but sometimes it cant be shorter.)
And for the sakeof the thing with possible changes and so on:
@Naron are HP and Resilience bad and worthless like within the other quests? If you dont want to answer that, do we need to find out ourselfs?
EDIT: And please keep it friendly and reasonable, at best with arguments and ideas if possible.
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[X] EXP Plan
-[X] Protective Silhouette 5 - 7
[X] Read a book
-[X] Protective Silhouette 5 - 7
[X] Read a book
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It is helpful to consider that other posters have work and sleep cycles during which you appear to be yelling at thin air...because you are. People who're busy or offline can't argue.
But actually, no, when you make points they are sound. It's when you try to convince people of your points that you smash that fine structure over with accusatory, or argumentative tones even when nobody is arguing.
Thus the self sabotage, because doing so creates arguments when it could have been persuasion.
Likewise, once the argument has been made, repeating it is worse than useless. It only makes the argument look annoying unless you have some further elaboration or new insight to add. If every three posts is a post repeating the same point...well it wastes time to read and makes the reception poorer for the same reason that people stuffing flyers in your windscreen wipers win you zero interest in what they sell even if you needed it.
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DarkKing98
Certified Village Idiot
- Location
- USA
Naron doesn't close the vote in four or five hours. You have plenty of time to read through his flood of words if you willingly make the time for it.
Difference in opinions will always lead to arguments. That's why you talk it out and try to get everyone on the same page.
Can ya clarify this bit please? Cuz it sounding to me that you're saying he should just say his piece and then never comment about it again. Which is not how people come to a compromise.
- Location
- behind you
I have work too and I dont expect you to answer within minutes. I expect you to answer in generel, which mostly didnt happen even over hours/days.
1. I repeat my arguments because nearly no one said anything, that isnt just you.
2. I repeat them because many seemed to miss them, forget them or simple ignore them, but consider that you just ignore them would be even more rude than just think you missed them. If you had arguments and facts against it anyway, i wouldnt/couldnt bring it up again.
What I am trying is something simple: I try to change something I think which is most likely (and sometimes really obvious) leading towards a game over. Besides that i am not yelling or did you see caps from me? I stay rather nice and try to explain things, because you dont seem to understand. But the fact that no one gives me real arguments against it isnt an accusation, it is a fact. That is simple critizism towards quite a few people here, nothing more and nothing less.
If you feel attacked from it then I am sorry but that isnt my fault in the end.
And because of the argument with your flyers: If someone dont want to sell something but more likely want to say something to you which is for you important but you ignore it, it isnt the fault of the flyer or the person who tries to warn you.
It is like Ceasar and his death. If the person would have tried over days to warn him with letters and Ceasar still ignored it, it is the fault of Ceasar or the guy with the flyer?
EDIT: On that part I thank the people, who start to vote for some defense.
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I'm saying repeatedly chanting your point does nothing but undermine it. Let it stand on it's own merits or bring new relevant points. You don't need to keep bumping the same argument. Thats exactly what I meant by "initial arguments persuaded me but going down the page I get so annoyed reading it being repeated without any variation save to cast aspersions on the judgment of all those against it that I don't bother posting in favor anymore"
This is a thread. Your points are being read eight hours later. Repeating a point more than once per page only highlights how weak the points are even if they are not
The point is that there is no difference in opinion until you drive people against your side for being annoying!
Everyone is on board with more defense, your argument isn't "defense is good"(this would be the opposite of a strawman, where a point that nobody contests is repeatedly brought up like its being contested) it should be "defense should be prioritized soon for X reasons"
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- Location
- behind you
Then appear like you realize this and I gave enough examples and so on like the training with soul queller and if someone tries to deny it without arguments of doing so or completly seems to misunderstand things. More so if the supposed arguments against it arent working against it, because then i just assume you missed the whole point of that. Then I will try to reword it, so that person may be able to understand it.
And because of your Edit: That is the point. I say we need defense first and give arguments and examples to support it. I dont say defense is good or defense is better than offense. Heck i even said that often and clear enough. I said we need defense now, because right now we dont survive getting a hit.
With that what I wrote above, about you dont understanding or misunderstanding things is even more supported.
If it is annoying you: Say you understand and act like you do. Or give such arguments against it yourself.
With that I would be ok to drop that now and I would really like you to at least consider one of my last points.
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DarkKing98
Certified Village Idiot
- Location
- USA
...ok. veekie. Going to be blunt here. This:
Is a load of bullshit and we both know it. Some people didn't want to focus on defense. Some did. Difference in opinion. Not everyone is thinking the same thing here.
Entirely misframing it. Nobody did not want defense.
Some people wanted other things at a higher priority while we were in a peaceful situation with no life and death scenarios in the near future(and this is true, we only lost an entirely optional fight). Some wanted to get Connection ASAP while we could spare it. Others wanted to have sufficient offense power so that we weren't stuck unable to hurt anything more durable than a basic zombie.
Hence, beating up a strawman. Nobody is defending it. Is there any surprise that the protests fall on deaf ears? And still are?
Heck, the whole previous XP vote wasn't even featuring defense as a major point of discussion, it was an extended effort at trying to extoll the evils of Connection.
Unsurprisingly nobody really agreed, so hitching the defense wagon to that was dead from the start.
Nobody has ever implied they're worthless. Just that they aren't what lets you survive big hits. What they are great for is letting you survive repeated scratch damage from being outnumbered by mooks.
It's a fundamental consequence of how the level system works.
For example, say that you have Character A with 100 Health, 100 Base Resilience, and level 1 abilities that govern each of those, and you have Character B with 100 Base Damage and 1 Attack Per Turn on a level 1 weapon.
If Character A wants to raise both their Health and Base Resilience abilities to level 5, it costs a total of 200 EXP and raises them to 500 Health and 500 Base Resilience. If character B raises their weapon to level 5, it raises their Base Damage to 500, increases their Attacks Per Turn by 1, and adds the ability Double Hit to their weapon.
If for mathematical simplicity we assume that both characters have Magic Modifiers of N/A and no Existence Bonus, then this is what one turn of Character B attacking Character A looks like before and after the level ups.
Before said:
Even if you combined Character A's Health and Resilience abilities into a single ability, this result would not change. All that would change is that the characters would be spending equal amounts of EXP instead of the winner spending half the amount of EXP that the loser did.After said:
This is what I mean by Health and Resilience not being how you survive big hits. The disparity just becomes worse when you bring the Armor Pierce/Juggernaut/Unstoppable line of abilities into the picture.
As for how you do survive big hits, there's a few options, each with its own pluses and minuses.
- Have abilities that reduce Incoming Damage and/or Final End Damage by large percentages. This is the only method that cannot be negated by opposing abilities, however extreme amounts of damage can still oneshot you regardless (unless the reduction is Recursive, like Red Rose's To Stand Amongst Gods in CWMGQ). This type of ability is often, but not always, an expensive shop item gated by certain Health and Resilience levels.
- Have abilities that outright prevent attacks from hitting you. This is the Skilled and Dodge line of abilities. These have the advantage of not caring even the slightest bit about how strong an attack is, but carry the disadvantages of being inconsistent unless you have more Attacks Per Turn than your opponent does and sometimes getting prevented by Soft Mechanics. For instance, Moon was unable to Dodge the Queen's spell (despite the plan saying to use Dodge) because the spell was a caustic gas filling the entire room, making it literally impossible to dodge even with concepthax backing you up. These abilities can sometimes also fail if your opponent has higher High-Speed Combat than you.
- Have a variant of the Intercept ability on an attack with either Unstoppable or very high damage. This is how Juggernaut Drive survived (until meeting Goddess Grey, who isn't a fair comparison) as an extreme case of Glass Cannon. Unstoppable makes you essentially auto-win Intercept conflicts, and high damage acts as either a flat reduction to Incoming Damage (scaling up more quickly than Base Resilience does) or outright negates the enemy attack (and hurts the enemy). Unless you have allies who can watch your back or also have an ability for category 1 of this list too, the effectiveness of this method falls off immensely when you're being attacked by multiple enemies simultaneously or by attacks that are coming at you quicker than the limits of your High-Speed Combat level. Also, unless you have the Primordia ability or have one of these abilities on a Spell instead of a Weapon, this method doesn't do shit against enemy Spells.
- Have one of your main gimmicks be an ability that negates enemy attacks in some manner. In CWMGQ, this category includes abilities such as James's "'Merely' Human", Goddess Gold's "Power Negation", Brilliant Key's "Auto-Rhythm", and all angels' immunity to damage from Spells (but not immunity to other effects of Spells).
- Be so freaking fast that your opponent can't even aim at you. Obviously, this doesn't work if your opponent is also super fast or if you don't have enough space to maneuver. Works better with ranged attacks than melee attacks.
- Use absurd amounts of raw skill to do insane shit without having actual abilities for it. In CWMGQ, this is how Red Rose fought the entire Goddess Four simultaneously (when the Goddesses were low level) and obtained her super hax End Damage reducing ability as a reward afterwards. This is also what lets White Soul dodge rain without an actual Dodge ability. Downside of this method is that it takes a gigantic amount of time, effort, and practice to learn.
- Location
- behind you
The Problem is that we dont have any of this and dont know how to get them. Therefore finding them would cost us too much time. Time we most likely dont have.
Then why not raising our Health and Resilience if we need that DMG-reduction to survive, when we dont have any of this?
Besides the fact that we would have survived with a bit more defense.
Besides the fact that your whole calculation based on the fact that all grows equal. We can see that Eva/Moon is supposed to be the Tank and Healer and we have a rather expensiv ability that improves her Health and Resilience Modifier. When we consider how expensiv it is and this is a Super-Abilty then simply foubling her basics would be rather weak. Therefore it can easely be that Eva/Moon´s expotential grow can be that ability together with our Heal, or maybe it does more than just raising our Health/Resilience.
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Not the point. It's called an example. If we did have enough ATP to potentially dodge it, we still wouldn't have been able to because it filled the entire room.
- Location
- behind you
Then I misunderstood it and I´m sorry about that.
Changed it then.
BTW I forgot to ask something (not really Beta but more like some people in general):
Why do you assume there will be no fight in the near future? This is Fresh Meat and The UES and maybe other Nations are not that friendly against MG´s besides the fact that not all MG´s needs to like both fractions or others in general.
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DarkKing98
Certified Village Idiot
- Location
- USA
Because despite knowing that, no one feels the danger. The closest I'd argue whenever we feel danger is knowing that Brave Heart is around. It's not something that's sticking to us well. Especially since we used to have Judge around, who can seemingly stop anyone in their tracks.
We actually already have all 3 of Skilled, Skillful Dodge, and High-Speed Combat. Upgrading Skilled and Skillful Dodge to higher tiers we don't know how to do, but leveling up our weapons to get more Attacks Per Turn does make them easier to use. High-Speed Combat is upgraded by raising our Flight level.
As for that example, that only used equal numbers to make the math simpler. The point was to show the ratios. One side spent 100 EXP to multiply its Total Damage by 10 and the other side spent 100 EXP to multiply its Damage Reduction by 5. The point was to show that Total Damage grows at a faster rate than Damage Reduction does.
And I'm not at all against getting Moon's super ability. I want that ability. The point of contention is whether all EXP should be focused on working towards it or if we should work towards it gradually.
When I made that EXP plan that got Complete Connection and Radiance, notice how it also leveled up Moon's Lunar Blessing from 5 to 6 with some of the leftover EXP? That was specifically because level 10 is a prereq for both Radiant Conductor and Veil of the Lunar Goddess and I want to gradually work our way up to those.
My perspective has pretty much always been "Get Health + Resilience to level 5 because it's a huge increase for the price at levels that low, but afterwards stop and only increase them further if the shop shows them to be prerequisites for something else. If increasing them past level 5, think of the level up cost as being part of the cost of the ability it's a prereq for".
If you look back carefully at old posts, you'll notice that the only time I've ever said to not increase Health/Resilience at all was when some people wanted to raise Sun's Health/Resilience higher than level 5. I've never been against raising Moon's Health/Resilience, just against doing it all in one fell swoop instead of a little bit at a time.
I fully expect the super ability to reduce the End Damage taken by Moon, probably also increase how much Health/Resilience she gets per level, and possibly combine her Health and Resilience abilities into a single ability, but the End Damage reduction is the only part of that that actually feels like a huge deal to me.
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- behind you
In some things you stated are lies the problem:
Upgrading our weapons will get us more ATP but we dont know how much we get and how much we need to spent. In other words it will most likely be even more expensive then raising our Health and Resilience.
Even when you want that juast raising it if we have things to spare isnt enough right now. We need to focus with our next few hundred EXP we get Eva´s defense until we can say she will survive a hit. AFTER that we can go for more ATP and so on.
Using all of our EXP until we got Veil of the Lunar Goddess is the absolute most we should do and only if we learn that we needing this, because it is expensive. Even then getting Eva´s defense at least a bit higher then Rico´s is absolute necessary right now.
That is all I suggest. It is a few times shown that our defense is far too weak. We seen that in the last chapter and when we trained against Soul Queller.
Therefore Focus our EXP completly on defense until we can be sure to survive and then we can take risks and experiment a bit.
This is so wrong it isn't even funny. All upgrades are formulaic. Which means you can predict when you'll get each point of ATP after seeing it just once and be absolutely sure of it after getting a total of 3 ATP.
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- behind you
Then you can say when we get more ATP and then that we will only fight one opponent at a time and so on? Until you can absolutly say that (mostly the last part) we still need defense more right now. Everything else right now would be risky experimenting. We can still do this after we got more defense.