Lets Read: World War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War

I feel a little bad not having an ic thing, but I was moving into Philly 2013 so I definitely would have got got.
Don't worry! Sign {HERE} and we'll make sure to get your mortal coil shuffling again in no time.
Never listen to the Buenos Aires final broadcast. It will break your heart, and that's if you have no emotional connection to the lullaby. From what I understand, it left such a scar on the Argentinian psyche that they only got the population of Buenos Aires over a hundred thousand this year.

No one wanted to go back.
For those curious, I've seen this be mentioned as one of the likeliest matches for the song: Ciro y Los Persas - Canción de cuna
Add some z apocalypse sounds as background music...and yeah, it can fuck you up.

Honestly, I can see how our capital could fall. The city (Technically Buenos Aires is a Megacity that encompases the whole province, but we talking only about the capital) might not be the best in the world, but our subways and avenues connect it more or less completely and would provide an horde with an easy path to follow to more victims. On the other hand, if the Argentinian Goverment had taken minimal security measures, then it would have been easy to set barricades, checkpoints and basically prevent one more horrible tragedy from ocurrying. But this is WWZ and we can't have people use their brainz.
Argentina will be free! Donate to the cause [HERE]. This link might be illegal in your country, be careful.
Oh come on, really!?? It seems not even the zombie apocalypse can manage to make this country get better. Can I ask what got us this time? I highly doubt it can be another military dictatorship, not even if the ultra right got in power could they swing that by. Especially since we were full Kirchnerism/Peronism (a..."socialist" ideology) mode back then.
 
Late to the party to talk about this rather than the completely braindamaged depiction of North Koreans, but one of the things that always struck me as a lad reading this story was the Lobo. Because it definitely seems like an idea that when Brooks came up with it, he high-fived himself, but I had read the Zombie Survival Guide as well and I never understood from that book why such a weapon would be such a good idea against zombies, even under Brooks's weird rules. Thinking about it now, my best guess is that it has to do with Brooks's odd affection for the monk's spade, and the Lobo might be an attempt to reflect a reverse-engineered version of the same idea: that being, a polearm with a wide, double-edged blade. Which... yeah, I guess that's not the worst idea for an anti-zombie weapon? Nonetheless, I still struggled to think of why you would actually need it to look like a shovel when the book had made it quite clear that trench warfare was a moron's game against zombies.

The more pertinent thing about it is that when I googled depictions of the weapon, I recall from my misty youth that I couldn't find one that fully matched the book's description and didn't look either completely off from its description in the source material or didn't just look like a regular battleaxe. The version in the game looks like this:



Which doesn't seem completely mismatched from the book's descriptions, at least? I am ill-equipped to explain why this thing would be a piece of shit in the highly scientific and widely-applicable field of anti-zombie warfare, though.

At that point, it's a mildly over-designed e-tool. It, like, wouldn't suck as a melee weapon because it's still a folding shovel you can hit a ghoul with, sure. But at the end of the day it's a fallback weapon, not a thing to use instead of a gun, and there's basically nothing on this that would make it meaningfully more effective as a weapon than a WW1 folding shovel. Hardly the revolution that the book pretends this thing is.
 
North Korea.... Hooboy....

That is one area where the more esoteric side of things veers into rampant speculation...

There are two main strands of theory: That the Koreans found a way out to somewhere else, or that they found or made something else that's there now. With them, or replacing them.

The former usually thinks they got a way to escape this world, a portal to a timeline where the world revolution one, a fissure leading to the inner world, or a ride from some friendly aliens straight out of Posada's imaginings.

The latter supposes that there's some kind of entity or force dominating those bunkers now. A God AI, or some interdimensional demon, and what of the locals remain are it's servants.

But at the end of the day none of this is worth much because we just don't have much to go off of. I do tend to think something weird is going on though, because you think if it was just people crammed in a bunker someone would have slipped up by now. Runaway, or be seen getting out. Though I'm way biased towards less... normal explanations.

Still, some of my discussion partners seem to think the KCIA know more than they're letting on, and that they're scared of something in there. Something more dangerous than just a huddling army or a few million ghouls. Though it's still more likely to be just rising tensions with Japan, I'll admit.
 
It's funny to me how he talks about 'ex-commies wanting handouts' as if food and housing weren't human rights. Did I say funny? I meant disgusting.
 
You know, it's super fucked that like, this book mentions none of the other governments that formed. Like, at all.

Not even as trying to paint them all as authoritarian nightmare messes - even the ones that WERE authoritarian nightmare messes. Just flat out ignoring that they even exist. The only significant governments in WWZ that have ever existed were around before the outbreak and have come to exist after it. Unless, of course, you are on a boat.

It's an assumption the book demands you to make - an assumption that can be proven false by actually looking at the goddamned news and realising that people who got cut off didn't just die in their droves, they survived and made their own governments! But then that would imply that their precious Redeker plan was pointless and their governments deliberately engineered things to keep power instead of save lives.

Sorry if I'm not coherent, it's just... Once you notice it, it's one of the biggest things the book isn't saying, and in not saying anything about it, it says so much about what the purpose of the book actually is.
 
Late to the party to talk about this rather than the completely braindamaged depiction of North Koreans, but one of the things that always struck me as a lad reading this story was the Lobo. Because it definitely seems like an idea that when Brooks came up with it, he high-fived himself, but I had read the Zombie Survival Guide as well and I never understood from that book why such a weapon would be such a good idea against zombies, even under Brooks's weird rules. Thinking about it now, my best guess is that it has to do with Brooks's odd affection for the monk's spade, and the Lobo might be an attempt to reflect a reverse-engineered version of the same idea: that being, a polearm with a wide, double-edged blade. Which... yeah, I guess that's not the worst idea for an anti-zombie weapon? Nonetheless, I still struggled to think of why you would actually need it to look like a shovel when the book had made it quite clear that trench warfare was a moron's game against zombies.

The more pertinent thing about it is that when I googled depictions of the weapon, I recall from my misty youth that I couldn't find one that fully matched the book's description and didn't look either completely off from its description in the source material or didn't just look like a regular battleaxe. The version in the game looks like this:



Which doesn't seem completely mismatched from the book's descriptions, at least? I am ill-equipped to explain why this thing would be a piece of shit in the highly scientific and widely-applicable field of anti-zombie warfare, though.
That one's basically an e-tool, seeming to have a telescoping haft. I think using it would be a race between the blade hinge and the screw fittings on the extendoshaft to see which breaks first.

TBH I think most melee weapon suggestions are pretty awful; the ideal, I think, would be something like a halberd, used in teams: one person to skewer the zombie and control its movements, another to finish it off. But teamwork isn't what a manly lone-wolf survivor would do.

Someone was talking somewhere in this thread about using polearms to trip zombies and all I could think of was 'what if it falls into your face'. Just seems safer to boar-spear it and hold it at bay for someone else.
Truthfully, I think that there is some truth to the idea that the WRK is backed by China. While the WRK has been repositioning itself to move to Cuban orbit when feasible, I think it's kind of unlikely that a largely-agricultural society without a strong urban proletariat that had undergone a nightmarish dictatorship calling itself "socialist" for so long would have reformed as a socialist-oriented society without the help of China. It's not entirely a psyop populated by Chinese, however, or whatever the KCIA wants to sell us.

I've also heard the comparison that, in the same way that the West German Basic Law was basically American lawmakers trying to accomplish what the Constitution did but without its flaws, the WRK was sort of the attempt by Mao-sympathetic socialists in China (with limited but notable help from the Koreans) to create Maoism but without the issues that plagued that period of Chinese politics.
I dunno, I could see it being the other way - the problem not being socialism, but that the Kims crowned themselves the Kings of Socialism. It was written earlier, IIRC, that most survivor communities ended up being de-facto socialist no matter what system their original societies used, so it might be they just carried on as they always did, just without Great Leader and his cronies leaning over their shoulders.

Of course, there's no guarantee that whatever government they eventually shook out into would be democratic, but it'd be fairly hard for it to be less democratic than the one that abandoned them.
 
As the outbreak was beginning, the South Korean government, in the personage of the NIS - the intelligence agency which later returned to being the Korean CIA - arrested the leadership of the most prominent leftist party in the country for "plotting with the North".

This was the society that they believe was "too free". Nevermind that 10 companies made up 60% of their economy, and when Samsung said jump, their government said "Yes sir!"

It's funny to me how he talks about 'ex-commies wanting handouts' as if food and housing weren't human rights. Did I say funny? I meant disgusting.
To be fair this is exactly how this Sort of Guy talks. Freedom is when corporatism and no living standards, and the more money billionaires make the freer it is.

So he pulled out. Cut contact with South Korea, stopped following Chinese "advice" on foreign policy, and enacted North Korea's absolutely monstrous take on the Redeker plan.
Yeah. I was going to say that throwing down with SK/US in return for... what, exactly? sounds like a massively stupid idea.

We know the DMZ is heavily mined. Last month a cargo plane nearing their airspace was fired on by a surface-to-air missile. The launcher was an automated model, the type they'd designed as a revenge weapon in case the population had already been obliterated.

Another argument is that the DPRK is clearly still kicking, if only just. Something's clearly gone wrong - you can't imagine they intend to stay in their bunker complex forever - but there's absolutely no fucking chance that any of their automated defences are still working after 20 years without maintenance - they can't even keep a pillbox or razorwire functional for 20 years without replacement parts, and you expect us to believe their SAM turrets are just ticking over fine?
It also sounds like a tremendously convenient excuse for a WRK shootdown.

Anyone who thinks you could have an automated SAM site still functional enough to kill a cargo aircraft after 20 years has obviously never operated a radar set.
Yeah, the North Koreans must be *really good* engineers or something.


So far as "how" the infection got in - I think it was probably the South Korean spies. Recall that this was before the outbreaks had really gotten going; only China and North Korea knew, at this point. If a South Korean spy got through the initial screening to get into the "let us all become mole people" meeting, they'd be assumed to be clean of the zombie taint. If they'd slipped out a side exit to try and contact Seoul, though… Been bitten by a homeless person whilst doing it? Do you think they'd tell anyone in the bunker? People would ask questions, like "what were you doing out there". So they didn't tell anybody, and then eventually they turned within the bunker complex.
Alternate explanation might be North Korean scouts coming back infected, and they refuse to send anyone out again out of fear of a repeat performance. Or someone just incidentally slipped through quarantine.

Before I read the rest of the paragraph I was expecting her to suggest it to be an intentional assassination-by-infection from South Korea, given that it hadn't really gotten going and therefore South Korea wouldn't realize how bad an idea propagating it was, morals and ethics aside. Not to mention the burgeoning KCIA.
Also a possibility, after all, basically every government (at least the Redeker ones) tried to keep the zombies a secret as long as possible, if they knew of existence if not extent for a month or so earlier than they let on... it wouldn't be out of the question.

My money's on just, you know, regular sickness. One bad cholera outbreak could easily spread and kill everyone in a closed environment.
You could definitely get some massive fatalities but its hard for mundane disease to kill everyone. It could certainly cut the population to a... tiny fraction of what it was. If the survivors then fled

That's certainly how the Americans seem to handle it in People's History, so I wouldn't be entirely surprised if that's what happened in China, too. Though in that case you'd want to spell it out more aggressively in the narrative to make it a message of the work... and in the context of THIS thread... Well, I suppose the narrator has her reasons not to want to do that, because it would feel too much like giving into the official Sinophobia of the original book.
I recall from the discord that China had a nuclear exchange with itself. (Specifically between the Politburo/State Sec who wanted to implement Redeker with Chinese Characteristics and left elements who... did not want that.)


Thinking about it now, my best guess is that it has to do with Brooks's odd affection for the monk's spade, and the Lobo might be an attempt to reflect a reverse-engineered version of the same idea: that being, a polearm with a wide, double-edged blade.
The monk's spade is... ah, it feels like a crippling case of overfitting, like he was trying to find the absolute best weapon for his (very specific) idea of how to fight zombies, while utterly failing to appreciate that 'actually having one' is a vastly more important feature in an apocalypse survival scenario than the exact shape of blade.
That said, if it was a deliberate attempt to emulate the spade, you'd think it'd actually have the key characteristics he so praised, such as a crescent-shaped blade on the opposite end to trap and ward off zombies and, y'know, being staff-to-polearm length.

Nonetheless, I still struggled to think of why you would actually need it to look like a shovel when the book had made it quite clear that trench warfare was a moron's game against zombies.
Because killing people with entrenching tools is COOL and MANLY, and it happened in WWI which is when soldiers were COOL and MANLY and EXPENDABLE.
(The Death Korps gets the same treatment, though they have a better excuse. Despite it being rather explicit that - as in history, they mostly fight with bayonets or actual trench knives in close combat, and for that matter their main method of digging trenches is 'excavator stuck on the back of a Russ hull. It also gets exactly one paragraph of description in IA5)

The term I've heard (though it would be kind of anachronistic in the WWZ timeline) is "Cult of the Badass." Not just reverence for combat and warriors, but for the idea that it is important to be a warrior combatant in a very specific way, to feel specific ways about it, to dismiss certain other specific feelings as "weak" and "unmanly" and so on.
I feel that's in many ways the pure essence of zombie fiction.
 
OOC: The core of things is that almost no zombie fiction is really about the zombies. They're a plot device so the author(s) can talk about what they actually want to discuss; for Brooks, it's a critique of the neoliberal, 'end-of-history' world order of the time, one that was increasingly showing the cracks.

That he chooses to critique it from the right, and so echoes a lot of what we're seeing today in terms of political movement (and echoes/presages people like Alex Jones and Ben Shapiro and so on), is probably not a coincidence. Most of it is the bog-standard as-old-as-the-written-word 'strong men-good times/good times-weak men' canard, but there's a strong strand of US-brand right libertarianism running through it with the weak ineffectual governments that need John Galt Redeker to present the Right Plan, and for the governments to still be too weak and unmanly to Do What Needs To Be Done, so Strong Men With Strong Wills have to rise up to do it instead.

It's noticeable that his best - honestly his only good - writing is when he completely avoids all of that shit and focuses on the human impact of the war instead.
 
My memories of the book - which I want to stress are not perfect - actually makes me say that for all it's critiquing the End of history, it still buys into it.

The Zombie Apocalypse happens, and it sucks, but then the world goes back to normal. It changes... but mostly in it's aesthetics and who's in charge. People still use money despite the Apocalypse being the kind of thing that probably isn't great for business and money being useless when you're trying to survive. Most of the worlds countries just continue onwards with new leadership who might be hard men, but we never se their decisions as having fundamentally changed the countries beyond making them generically 'Tougher' to survive.

It wants to critique the end of History. But in the end, all it can imagine is a fresh coat of paint on an old edifice. It's like the old chestnut about how it's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.
 
The monk's spade is... ah, it feels like a crippling case of overfitting, like he was trying to find the absolute best weapon for his (very specific) idea of how to fight zombies, while utterly failing to appreciate that 'actually having one' is a vastly more important feature in an apocalypse survival scenario than the exact shape of blade.
That said, if it was a deliberate attempt to emulate the spade, you'd think it'd actually have the key characteristics he so praised, such as a crescent-shaped blade on the opposite end to trap and ward off zombies and, y'know, being staff-to-polearm length.

Because killing people with entrenching tools is COOL and MANLY, and it happened in WWI which is when soldiers were COOL and MANLY and EXPENDABLE.
(The Death Korps gets the same treatment, though they have a better excuse. Despite it being rather explicit that - as in history, they mostly fight with bayonets or actual trench knives in close combat, and for that matter their main method of digging trenches is 'excavator stuck on the back of a Russ hull. It also gets exactly one paragraph of description in IA5)
Yeah, that was the main thing that threw me off. Like, surely the main thing behind the monk's spade being a useful weapon is just that it's long; anything that can get you to kill the zombie when it's a good distance away from you and there's less risk of it grabbing you if and when you mess up is undeniably a good thing. But I have a harder time imagining a weapon meant to serve as a soldier's entrenching tool ending up being that long. Like I said, I'm anything but an expert in the whole history, but whenever I see the shovels used by soldiers in warfare, they're usually pretty small. I'm certain there are exceptions out there, and when a soldier needs a hole dug, they'd probably use whatever what was to hand if they could, but a shovel that's meant to be part of your standard pack is probably not going to be much longer than two and a half feet at full extension. (The current entrenching tool the army uses is two feet exactly, from my searching.)

The World War I theory does feel quite reasonable, given that ZSG also rambled about the greatness of the trench spike at one point. It honestly reminds me a bit of that scene in Tangled where it's revealed that, after Flynn used a cast-iron skillet as an improvised weapon for a good chunk of the movie, it ends up becoming the new sidearm of the royal guard thanks to its effectiveness in the role... only, you know, that scene was a joke.
 
Last edited:
I wonder if the inexplicable popularity of the "Lobo" in the American imagination as this semi-divine perfect zombie killing tool might be indeed mostly because of the Junta propaganda, but in a more two-way process in a back and forth between the early Junta still fitfully coming to know itself as a new fascist regime and various surviving enclaves making contact and gaining favor with it. That what the Lobo represented was a tangible link to a Junta still looking like just the old American government on the surface level, actually plugged into the zombie threat and actively combatting it (even if it was just in fitful airdrops), with every crate of cheap steel Lobos and other e-tools and whatnot accompanied by all the other supplies coming in.

And especially when the New Clique of the Junta took power, the systematic destruction and hegemonic assimilation of large organized communities left open a dialogue between the regime and the new "silent majority", the enclaves of a couple dozen people compatible with the narrative of rugged homesteads and hardasses just waiting to be regrouped with their army big brother, who take a commanding cultural weight as like average Middle America in the apocalypse (never mind the demographic facts that might complicate this). Thus, the Lobo as a meme taking on near supernatural connotations after guys stopped killing themselves because the government really was out there fighting to save them, and because of statistically marginal incidents blown up into a symbol of post-zombie American heroism, that the Junta then takes and turns into a symbol of its legitimacy, like some old labrys double-axe or, more appropriate to what the Junta is, like a bundle of fasces.
 
Last edited:
OOC:
I find it hilarious how obviously Brooks does not care about South Korea. North Korea is strange and scary; South Korea is just America 2, right?

I don't think Max Brooks is a bad author or a bad person, but he does not strike me as being very curious about the world around him. I doubt he performed any significant research for this project. All nations are as they appear through the lens of military-funded Hollywood, which is why it works so well to turn this book into a propaganda piece by a military-run government. If there was a section on the war in Mexico, the pages would be tinted orange.
 
That one's basically an e-tool, seeming to have a telescoping haft. I think using it would be a race between the blade hinge and the screw fittings on the extendoshaft to see which breaks first.

TBH I think most melee weapon suggestions are pretty awful; the ideal, I think, would be something like a halberd, used in teams: one person to skewer the zombie and control its movements, another to finish it off. But teamwork isn't what a manly lone-wolf survivor would do.
Yeah.

Frankly, "how to fight with melee weapons" is one of those things humanity has ruthlessly optimized for more thousands of years than our written history extends. It's likely that for any remotely plausible problem that can be solved with melee weapons, some human already devised an optimal or effectively-optimal solution.

So whoever's trying to improve on that... you don't have endless experience hammering out melee weapons and actually using them. Whatever you can make up in your head is probably going to be at best mediocre and inferior to one or more of the existing solutions someone already thought of.

About the only exception to this rule is a scenario where new technology in a fantastic setting allows someone to make a melee weapon with truly unprecedented capabilities (e.g. lightsabers in Star Wars).

I dunno, I could see it being the other way - the problem not being socialism, but that the Kims crowned themselves the Kings of Socialism. It was written earlier, IIRC, that most survivor communities ended up being de-facto socialist no matter what system their original societies used, so it might be they just carried on as they always did, just without Great Leader and his cronies leaning over their shoulders.

Of course, there's no guarantee that whatever government they eventually shook out into would be democratic, but it'd be fairly hard for it to be less democratic than the one that abandoned them.
I think that removing the administrative apparatus of the Kims and their cronies out from on top of the system would leave a big gap in a large society of North Koreans, making any decisions they made past that point extremely hard to predict.
 
Ahh Max Brooks, author of the book Devolution, a story about vicious "Bigfoot" (as in the literal mythical bigfoot) murdering a town in the PNW. Oh and a little novel called WWZ that I liked as a kid.

I really enjoy this story a lot, and has made me appreciate the novel more. The book had been very memorable as a young teen and when looking back on it as I'm older it lost much of its luster. (Its on my shelves somewhere so they at least got their money outta me lol)

Also as a native Louisianan, I loved seeing my state get a major mention.
 
You are ignoring content by this member.
Now I'm thinking of an alternate universe where Maximilian Arroyos writes a zombie history of the world where America is inexplicably replaced with Comancheria after the apocalypse. Meanwhile, Spain is somehow Castile again and ruled over by the Trastamaras, and for some reason the only good stories are the ones about people on horseback.
 
Every country outside of America really just feels like a theme park ride in this.
It's true. I think it comes back to conservative/reactionary narcissism. A cornerstone of their faith is that only they are really human and everyone else is an extra or NPC in their story, which filters into everything else.
 
It's true. I think it comes back to conservative/reactionary narcissism. A cornerstone of their faith is that only they are really human and everyone else is an extra or NPC in their story, which filters into everything else.
I'd be more likely to ascribe it to apathy than that sort of depersonalizing malice tbh. America's not great about teaching things Not America, nor is Hollywood, and Max Brooks strikes me as sort of fundamentally incurious about such matters from how this is written (at least what's been covered here and the snippets outside that I can recall). He figures he's got the gist and hasn't exactly double-checked any of those unquestioned assumptions while doing what research he inevitably has to have done for this.
 
Yeah. Because Brooks kind of takes the same lazy-brain approach to writing the Zombie Survival Guide, which is basically by Americans for Americans and much less overtly political. So things he doesn't understand well that aren't politics get treated about as ignorantly as things that are, rather than politics getting a unique coating of deliberate "I don't care about them."

Though... at the same time, it does seem like of the things Brooks does seem to be trying to make a good faith effort to know about, non-American countries are quite low on the priority list.
 
So far as "how" the infection got in - I think it was probably the South Korean spies. Recall that this was before the outbreaks had really gotten going; only China and North Korea knew, at this point. If a South Korean spy got through the initial screening to get into the "let us all become mole people" meeting, they'd be assumed to be clean of the zombie taint. If they'd slipped out a side exit to try and contact Seoul, though… Been bitten by a homeless person whilst doing it? Do you think they'd tell anyone in the bunker? People would ask questions, like "what were you doing out there". So they didn't tell anybody, and then eventually they turned within the bunker complex.
One of the more obvious examples of the reviewer having biases of her own. There's reaching and then there's inventing a scenario out of whole cloth to blame the outbreaks on the South Koreans. You know, because there's no way the communist North Koreans could have had a few slip through the checks the way it happened absolutely everywhere else? By hiding it, by bribing guards, by being important enough to refuse checks, by guards being bored, sloppy or drunk,... No no, had to be those dastardly South Koreans.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not saying this is a bad thing. Done well, scrutinizing the unreliable narrator is good fun. And here we have two for the price of none!
 
Last edited:
Back
Top