Lets Read: World War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War

OOC: I know its been said before and more eloquently by others but I absolutely love the framing of the Book as the deeply horrible American Junta trying for propaganda and when they aren't relaying stories of the world falling apart selectively only talking to governments that did go through with with as @all fictions described it "Afrikander Thanos" insanity.

@veteranMortal is doing an amazing job of selling the narrative of 'Okay yes these horrible regimes exist but they aren't the only ones by a long shot and the American's are collectively not talking about the fact an international community of nations that didn't do Redecker is around and said community are busy working to overthrow the nutcases that America got into bed with.'

Given what I remember of the Holy Russian Empire from my many years ago read of the book, the breeding camps and so forth? The narrative an absolutely livid Red Army is sweeping them away and hanging absolutely everyone involved in its nightmare system is very appealing to me.
 
I must confess my ignorance of Russian doctrine, but it doesn't sound suitable for their situation. Say what you will about the pipe-dream idealism of "one shot, one kill," it's a good ideal to strive for. Reaping the infected with automatic fire is all well and good if the mob is dense enough that every bullet hits an enemy, but I doubt Russia of all places was regularly facing that kind of threat.


Weird how the author is willing to overlook war crimes by "strong leaders".
At least he's willing to consistently apply that standard to all generals. Or the white ones, at least.



I've always wondered whether drugs taken that way would have any effect on the infected once they've turned. In the terminal stages of infection, most drugs don't affect them, but does the same apply to drugs ingested earlier?

There would probably be some ethical concerns for actually performing experiments like that, to say nothing of the logistical difficulties finding a statistically significant number of early-stage infectees. And if those hurdles were cleared, I would advise against using caffeine. If it works...caffeinated infected sound needlessly dangerous. Sleeping pills would probably be safer.




I don't think Max Brooks could create a more extreme depiction of a man crushed by the cruelties of the world if he tried.


Point 1: Most of Russia on a map is in Asia, but most of its people live in the west. The part of Russia that's in Europe has less than a quarter of Russia's land, but more than three-quarters of its people. Which is still a low population density—about one-fifth of Poland's—but Siberia makes it look like the Low Countries.
What I'm getting at is that "the Asian swarms from the southeast" would only be a significant threat to Russia if Russians were actively moving to Siberia. And even then, Siberia is so freaking huge that you'd need an absurd number of zombies running around (or some kind of extreme-long-range hunting senses) for them to be a bigger threat than the logistical and environmental challenges of moving most of Russia to Siberia.

TL;DR: Just because zombies crossed the Chinese-Russian border doesn't mean Chinese zombies are a significant threat to Russia.

Point 2: I don't find "the Asian swarms" invading Siberia to be a terribly plausible zombie phenomenon in general. Either the zombies mostly stick to populated areas with lots of humans (and don't wander across the Eurasian steppe in large numbers), or those swarms disperse over the entire steppe. It's weirdly hard to find estimates of the steppe's area (Google just shows me people stealing Wikipedia's statement that it's 5,000 miles long), but if everyone in China turned into a zombie and wandered across the Eurasian steppe (as opposed to sticking around China or wandering in any other direction), each zombie would have multiple acres of steppe to itself.

Maybe it would be plausible if the zombies were hive-minded enough to maintain a coherent battle line as they wandered across Asia. Probably not, though. You've probably heard what they say about starting a land war in Asia.


Does Brooks assume getting from India to Russia through Afghanistan and Kazakhstan (or whatever) is as easy as going from New York to Chicago through Ohio and Indiana (or whatever)?

This is obviously just the Asian equivalent of the USA fleeing to Canada. It's just silly—partly because Asia is bigger than North America, partly because US citizens running to Canada don't have to cross as much of America as Indians running to Russia cross of Asia, partly because central Asia is covered with mountain ranges and steppe instead of highways and farms.


Reject modernity, return to molde.

I'd forgotten how unsubtle this book was. "We were equipped like World War 2 army. In fact, we were literally wearing WW2-era uniforms. Not WW2-style uniforms, the literal uniforms our grandparents wore."

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Our battles were sloppy and brutal. We plastered the enemy in DShK heavy machine-gun fire, drowned them with flamethrowers and Katyusha rockets, and crushed them under the treads of our prehistoric T-34 tanks. It was inefficient and wasteful and resulted in too many needless deaths.

Article:
The decimations had given our armed forces the strength and discipline to do anything we asked of them.

It's weird. Brooks writes the Soviet brutality as being "wasteful," yet also providing people the strength and discipline to Do What Needs to Be Done. (Except killing their fellow soldier, of course.) They embody values that Brooks values elsewhere in the text, but in a bad way.

It kinda reminds me of Greek/Roman beliefs about race. (I swear I'm going somewhere with this.) They saw the barbarians of Europe/northern Europe as strong but savage, and the Persians/Egyptians/etc as civilized but decadent. They saw themselves as both strong and civilized, of course. Though some Roman writers complaining about Roman decadence and decline (mostly while Rome was either rising or running steadily) took a slightly different stance, framing the savage strength of Germanic tribes as something the Romans could stand to emulate, instead of letting oriental luxury corrupt them or whatever.


This is an...I don't know what to call it. I want to call it an interesting insight into how Max Brooks thinks of religion, but that implies I have any idea what he's saying here.

I guess he's not always blunderingly unsubtle.

Considering that the chaplain is introduced as a man who's lived humbly despite his position that I assume has some importance, and that he's treated as a broadly reliable narrator, this is probably somewhere in the ballpark of Brooks's thesis.

Synthesizing that, the bit about Russian tactics being brutal but callous, and the bit about how Russians lost the opium of the masses...it kinda feels like he's saying that those godless Commies are cruel because of their atheism, but they could be good soldiers with the rest of the world if they adopt Christianity (and capitalism) like the good ol' U S of A. Which fits with how Brooks treats, e.g, Cuba.

But it clashes with this stuff. Religion clearly isn't enough to clean a Russkie's soul.

Okay, first principles. Brooks says that the Soviet Union's communism and "materialistic democracy" (??) eroded Russians' ability to believe in God. And when religion is reintroduced to the Russians, it's immediately "perverted for political reasons". So it kinda feels like he's framing atheism, communism, and/or "materialism" as a corrupting force, something that stains a culture even after the cause has been removed from a society.

As an atheist, I would be offended at this, if it wasn't all so muddled that I can't confidently say which parts were intentional and which are just patterns in the chaos.



In what context does "it takes hours to work" count as "quick"? Are we comparing it to death by starvation?
Because the dose makes the poison.

For example, if I shove you into a full 100% CO chamber, or say 70% , your death is within minutes too.

There's also easy ways to do that, not going to write it since I don't wanna end up on any more watchlists.
 
Quick question: What does RSFSR stand for? I know it's the socialist Russian rival government that's slowly destroying the HRE (and good riddance), but I'm not sure what its actual name is.
 
Because the dose makes the poison.

For example, if I shove you into a full 100% CO chamber, or say 70% , your death is within minutes too.

There's also easy ways to do that, not going to write it since I don't wanna end up on any more watchlists.
If this is responding to what I think it's responding to: The post I said claimed it would take hours. If you were imagining a setup that would kill someone in minutes, you should not have referred to it killing you "over the course of hours".
 
Going to disagree with you on flame throwers. A properly made and employed flamer works fine, and will absolutely do a number on a Ghoul swarm. The problem is 1) a shortage of trained operations in most forces and 2) the shit fuel mixes in a lot of improvised flame devices. A proper flame thrower will lock the ligaments of the target. Ghouls aren't going anywhere. The idea of flaming zombies stumbling around is largely a result of improper mixed Incendiary which don't burn hot enough to do real damage. A human hit with them would be similiarly little effected. They would just stop, drop and roll to put the fire out rather than continue to stumble towards you setting possible secondary fires.

If the research departments thermal experiments are right, properly made might have a decently narrow definition. They keep finding different reactions to different temperature ranges, now this is all second hand but apparently if the fires to hot the don't lock up. Or at least that's the theory why they didn't lock up when folks tried air dropping napalm on them. Then again, their just fucking weird as hell so god knows if that's what was going on.
 
If the research departments thermal experiments are right, properly made might have a decently narrow definition. They keep finding different reactions to different temperature ranges, now this is all second hand but apparently if the fires to hot the don't lock up. Or at least that's the theory why they didn't lock up when folks tried air dropping napalm on them. Then again, their just fucking weird as hell so god knows if that's what was going on.

Generally really hot fire will also mechanically destroy the ghoul though as its flesh melts or boils.

Like, it certainly seemed like napalm worked the few times I've seen it used since the war. The main reason most people don't is because like... it has a lot of bad secondary effects (like forest fire in the increasingly dry woods of southern europe) and it's not really more effective than standard high explosives.

You can absolutely end up getting chased by flaming ghouls if you hit them with a duff fire bomb though. Sometimes lighting some ghouls on fire is helpful but it does quite often end up with them chasing you around on fire and then everything being on fire.
 
Quick question: What does RSFSR stand for? I know it's the socialist Russian rival government that's slowly destroying the HRE (and good riddance), but I'm not sure what its actual name is.

Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic - it's the official name of Soviet Russia. The Reds in Russia are quite deliberately aping a lot of the aesthetics of the first Russian Revolution. YMMV on whether that's a good thing.
 
Okay this is going to be a rare one - I'm about to disagree with our Interviewer friend here, and it is going to be to point out he is being too kind to a communist state. The 'mountains of military might' from the Soviet Union were mostly mountains of grift and junk people had stripped of the valuable parts.
In fairness to the Soviets, most of that stripping of the military reserves took place after the Soviet Union began to collapse.
 
Total War, Part 4
Total War, Part 4

Article:
ABOARD USS HOLO KAI, OFF THE COAST OF THE HAWAIIAN ISLANDS

[Deep Glider 7 looks more like a twin fuselage aircraft than a minisub. I lie on my stomach in the starboard hull, looking out through a thick, transparent nose cone. My pilot, Master Chief Petty Officer Michael Choi, waves at me from the port hull. Choi is one of the "old-timers," possibly the most experienced diver in the U.S. Navy's Deep Submergence Combat Corps (DSCC). His gray temples and weathered crow's-feet clash violently with his almost adolescent enthusiasm. As the mother ship lowers us into the choppy Pacific, I detect a trace of "surfer dude" bleeding through Choi's otherwise neutral accent.]


Sucking air through my teeth reading about going into a Deep Glider, honestly. It wasn't this one - they didn't go super deep around Hawaii - it was the one in the North Atlantic, but still. You couldn't pay me.

These are some of the veterans who make a solid argument for having had the proverbial "worst war" - they're wrong, obviously, but they make the arguments.

Is it hypocritical of me to claim they had an easier war when I wouldn't trade places with them? Probably.

Article:
My war never ended. If anything, you could say it's still escalating. Every month we expand our operations and improve our material and human assets. They say there are still somewhere between twenty and thirty million of them, still washing up on beaches, or getting snagged in fishermen's nets. You can't work an offshore oil rig or repair a transatlantic cable without running into a swarm.


The dark secret here is that it's futile. Like, we all know that, don't we? We are never going to kill every ghoul in the sea, not easily and not quickly. Mitigation, that's the name of the game. Guards on beaches, fences where we can't have guards, exclusion netting around deep sea repairs, and eventually, eventually, we'll have the problem sufficiently tamped down that we don't need to worry about it.

American deep sea dives to "track the swarms" are about as pointless as the Brazilian extermination dives. The purest ideological coping mechanism. A refusal to acknowledge that past a certain point, the ghouls are just something we have to live with.

Article:
You're not going to ask me about scuba gear or titanium shark suits, are you, because that crap's got nothing to do with my war? Spear guns and bang sticks and zombie river nets…I can't help you with any of that. If you want civilians, talk to civilians.

But the military did use those methods.

Only for brown water ops, and almost exclusively by army pukes.


What the fuck is a bangstick?

But anyway - brown water operations were the bulk of marine operations, and by a wide fucking margin the more important part - you cannot clear a city if the waterways are vomiting out ghouls, and cleaned out canal networks and lakes was a vital part of our infrastructural network.

Canals are worse, by the way, than rivers. In a river, you can work one way - ghouls in the water aren't capable of moving upstream, so you can just point upriver, in full confidence that you don't need to watch your back. Extremely useful when we were clearing out Oxford - the Isis would've been impossible to deal with if the dive teams had to worry about ghouls from every town and city from Reading to London. There's no current in a canal, so you're working in both directions.

The worst is subterranean waterways, like the labyrinth under London.

From what I have heard, in America the waterway clearances were a nightmare, but most of that heavy lifting was done around the Great Lakes by the Socialist Republic, obviously, or the Mississippi by the CSA, so it gets pretty short shrift in a polemic like this.

His type of marine work - deep bluewater diving in hardsuits - was an absolute minority. It just wasn't terribly useful during the war. There's not that many places where you needed suits like that.

Article:
So it's like a personal submarine?

"Submersible." A submarine can stay down for years, maintaining its own power, making its own air. A submersible can only make short duration dives, like World War II subs or what we're in now.

[The water begins to darken, deepening to a purplish ink.]


That isn't how you define a Submersible versus a Submarine. WWII submarines were submarines, obviously - a submarine is something that can go out under its own power, a submersible needs to be towed out to deep water and supported by a surface vessel.

It doesn't really "matter" per se - the dude doesn't know his definitions, but who cares? - but its illustrative, I guess, of how, like, professionally incurious the Americans are? Their propaganda has always had this bent of like… scorn? Towards the professional classes, with this idea of like, more or less destroying the Professional-Managerial Class and the skilled labour class. America is a country of cops, soldiers, labourers and owners, with pretty sharp divisions between those categories, which means soldiers don't ask questions or care about, like, what a thing is, beyond how it works?

Article:
The very nature of an ADS, the fact that it's really just a suit of armor, makes it ideal for blue and black water combat. I'm not knocking soft suits, you know, shark or other mesh rigs. They've got ten times the maneuverability, the speed, the agility, but they're strictly shallow water at best, and if for some reason a couple of those f**kers get ahold of you…I've seen mesh divers with broken arms, broken ribs, three with broken necks. Drowning…if your air line was punctured or the regulator's ripped out of your mouth. Even in a hard helmet on a mesh-lined dry suit, all they'd have to do is hold you down, let your air run out. I've seen too many guys go out that way, or else try to race for the surface and let an embolism finish what Zack started.


So, this is… true? But the amount of times people go to depths where the bends or whatever is a problem is, like, vanishingly rare. You only need to go that deep for cables or rig work, which just wasn't a common issue in the war? Harbours are only, like, a dozen metres deep at most, and you just… didn't need to go very far out to sea, typically? The fact that ADS - that's "Atmospheric Diving Suit" FWIW - are more or less impervious to ghouls is way more relevant than their ability to maintain surface pressure but like… there were only a handful of them? People didn't use mesh suits preferentially to ADS, they did it because ADS were rare. We had four.

Article:
There was no risk of physical danger. Both your body and your life support are encased in a cast-aluminum or high-strength composite shell. Most models' joints are steel or titanium. No matter which way Zack turned your arms, even if he managed to get a solid grip, which is hard considering how smooth and round everything is, it was physically impossible to break off a limb. If for some reason you need to jet up to the surface, just jettison your ballast or your thruster pack, if you had one…all suits are positively buoyant. They pop right up like a cork. The only risk might be if Zack were clinging to you during the ascent. A couple times I've had buddies surface with uninvited passengers hanging on for dear life…or undeath.


This was actually more of a pain in the arse than you'd think, I've heard. See, these suits aren't rated to be hosed down with gunfire, so getting the ghouls off the suit safely was… not trivial? You had to use, like, bargepoles and shit. I never shared a theatre with the hardsuits, personally, but like… this sounds appalling.

Also, most ADS are wrought aluminium or cast magnesium. See again; incurious.

Article:
Balloon ascents almost never happened in combat. Most ADS models have forty-eight hours emergency life support. No matter how many Gs dog-piled you, no matter if a hunk of debris came crumbling down or your leg got snagged in an underwater cable, you could sit tight, snug and safe, and just wait for the cavalry. No one ever dives alone, and I think the longest any ADS diver has ever had to cool his heels was six hours. There were times, more than I can count on my fingers, where one of us would get snagged, report it, then follow up by saying that there was no immediate danger, and that the rest of the team should assist only after accomplishing their mission.


I… don't think this is smart. Just because there's no "immediate" danger doesn't mean, like, more debris won't fall and crack your canopy, or your armour might give way at a joint, or…

Like, most of these suits were old before the war, and barely maintained; our suits were apparently maintained by a retired Engineer who volunteered at a fucking dive museum before the war?

But it's all macho bullshit.

"Oh, I don't need rescuing, I'll just wait for hours in the pitch black in a suit that I have no control over, oh-"

Idiocy.

Article:
You say ADS models. Was there more than one type?

We had a bunch: civilian, military, old, new…well…relatively new. We couldn't build any wartime models, so we had to work with what was already available. Some of the older ones dated back to the seventies, the JIMs and SAMs. I'm really glad I never had to operate any of those. They only had universal joints and portholes instead of a face bowl, at least on the early JIMs. I knew one guy, from the British Special Boat Service. He had these mondo blood blisters all along his inner thighs from where the JIM's leg joints pinched his skin. Kick-ass divers, the SBS, but I'd never swap jobs with them.


We got the SBS. The SAS spent the war up with the Royalists, but largely the SBS stuck with us. Would've been too far to travel to Scotland from the South Coast, I suppose?

As far as I know, none of those mad boys survived the post-war rapprochement. Hunted down like dogs.

Article:
We had three basic U.S. Navy models: the Hardsuit 1200, the 2000, and the Mark 1 Exosuit. That was my baby, the exo. You wanna talk about sci-fi, this thing looked like it was made to fight giant space termites. It was much slimmer than either of the two hardsuits, and light enough that you could even swim. That was the major advantage over the hardsuit, actually over all other ADS systems. To be able to operate above your enemy, even without a power sled or thruster packs, that more than made up for the fact that you couldn't scratch your itches. The hardsuits were big enough to allow your arms to be pulled into the central cavity to allow you to operate secondary equipment.


It was my understanding that you can't swim in any of these, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. American hardsuit diving is, like, so far from my experience you can't even see my experiences from there.

Thruster packs are pretty normal though, I think? How the hell are you moving down on the seafloor without a thruster pack? That's not an even, unblemished surface.

Article:
What kind of weapons did you use?

At first we had the M-9, kind of a cheap, modified, knockoff of the Russian APS. I say "modified" because no ADS had anything close to resembling hands. You either had four-pronged claws or simple, industrial pincers. Both worked as hand-to-hand weapons—just grab a G's head and squeeze—but they made it impossible to fire a gun. The M-9 was fixed to your forearm and could be fired electrically. It had a laser pointer for accuracy and air-encased cartridges that fired these four-inch-long steel rods.


The APS was a piece of work. Works underwater, which is the least, but try to use the fucking thing above ground, and you'll find it can't hit a barn at 50 paces and breaks within minutes, and any you could pick up in the west would already be most of the way worn out. There were never very many, but as I understand it, our frogmen swore by the things, whilst anyone who was in and out of the water a lot - spelunking under cities, for example - rightfully hated the useless piece of junk.

Article:
The major problem was that they were basically designed for shallow water operations. At the depth we needed, they imploded like eggshells. About a year in we got a much more efficient model, the M-11, actually invented by the same guy who invented both the hardsuit and exo. I hope that crazy Canuck got an assload of medals for what he's done for us. The only problem with it was that DeStRes thought production was too expensive.


If you're already sending people down in ADS, you might as well shell out for their guns, surely? Though I confess, I don't know how much it cost to make a gas-powered gun work at depth.

Article:
What changed their minds?

Troll. We were in the North Sea, repairing that Norwegian natural gas platform, and suddenly there they were…We'd expected some kind of attack—the noise and light of the construction site always attracted at least a handful of them. We didn't know a swarm was nearby.


The Norwegians were not per se "happy" about their North Sea rigs being taken over by the Americans, but the US navy retained enough of a presence globally, even at their wartime nadir, that they didn't really have any sort of choice. The Americans, meanwhile, had to seize the Norwegian North Sea rigs so they could keep their navy chugging, being as there were no longer any well-supplied friendly Atlantic ports for them, at this point.

And this is that Troll, yes.

It's probably true that scrapping with ghouls in a carapace at the bottom of the ocean is awful, but I don't think anyone was under the misapprehension that it wouldn't be?

Article:
Kids today…fuckin' A, I sound like my pops, but it's true, the kids today, the new ADS divers in the Mark 3s and 4s, they have this "ZeVDeK"—Zero Visibility Detection Kit—with color-imaging sonar and low-light optics. The picture is relayed through a heads-up display right on your face bowl like a fighter plane. Throw in a pair of stereo hydrophones and you've got a real sensory advantage over Zack. That was not the case when I first went exo. We couldn't see, we couldn't hear—we couldn't even feel if a G was trying to grab us from behind.


It is genuinely very funny that there's an interviewee here that openly talks about how hardcover between him and the ghouls is enough to trivialise them to the point that "I can't tell if I am being attacked" is his going concern, and the cult of the rifleman in America remains so strong that this doesn't even twig to the journalist as being problematic to their argument that soldiers should be going around with no tanks or even body armour to speak of.

Like, did they not proofread their work?

Speaking of unintentionally revelatory quotes in this interview, though-

Article:
The civilian oil workers, they wouldn't go back to work, even under threat of reprisals, until we, their escorts, were better armed. They'd lost enough of their people already, ambushed out of the darkness.


American Military reprisals against civilians contractors or employees on "war-essential sites" who refused to work or attempted to organise are a controversial topic, in that the Junta maintains they were individual actions of bad actors within the state, but also that they were fine, and will not be prosecuted, because the national interest was served, just using "Methods Unbecoming" - making protests illegal and then executing anyone who objected or protested, mandatory work orders…

Norway continues to more or less annually lodge formal diplomatic complaints with the US over the treatment of their rig workers in general, and the Troll dive teams in specific; provably retributive deployments leading to heightened risks to teams which raised labour and welfare issues with their American superiors. America continues to more or less annually ignore these complaints.

Article:
Our first mission was to protect the rig divers, keep the oil flowing. Later we expanded to beachhead sanitation and harbor clearing.

What is beachhead sanitation?

Basically, helping the jarheads get ashore. What we learned during Bermuda, our first amphibious landing, was that the beachhead was coming under constant attack by Gs walking out of the surf.


Bermuda was disastrous for the Junta. They wanted a test run for a landing on a ghoul-infested coastline, and - this is conjecture - to establish a friendly port in the Atlantic; none of their mainland Atlantic ports were safe from potential assault from the CSA or Socialist Republic.

But the ghoul hordes on Bermuda were on them almost immediately, the sea was rough enough to outright sink some of their landing vessels and, as mentioned, ghouls walked out of the surf to crush them. The landing force was lost with all hands, and Bermuda remained grey and shuffling until Cuba cleared the islands, which the Americans and the Royalists didn't super appreciate.

Article:
We had to establish a perimeter, a semicircular net around the proposed landing area that was deep enough for ships to pass over, but high enough to keep out Zack.

That's where we came in. Two weeks before the landings took place, a ship would anchor several miles offshore and start banging away with their active sonar. That was to draw Zack away from the beach.


He talks about this sort of beachhead clearance, and it's pretty familiar - we had frogmen doing very similar work whenever we had to cross a river we hadn't cleared upstream or a lake or whatever.

I'll tell you what fucking sucks though - doing a naval assault against a human enemy, now. We can't exactly sit off the coast and draw away any ghouls under the waves, right? They'll notice.

Probably the best opposed landings you'll see are the recent ones in Central America, where you can see the Mexicans are using depth charges to accelerate the process of drawing the ghouls away from the coast, approximately a minute in advance of the launch of their landing crafts - even then, I wouldn't want do it without the level of complete military supremacy they're able to enforce over the Honduran coast. God only knows what it'll look like as and when some of the other flash points go hot.

Article:
And harbor clearing?

That was not a cakewalk. That was in the final stages of the war, when it wasn't just about opening a beachhead, but reopening harbors for deepwater shipping. That was a massive, combined operation: mesh divers, ADS units, even civilian volunteers with nothing but a scuba rig and a spear gun.


Harbour clearances take so much longer than you think, I swear to god. I didn't realise how long it took until we reached Liverpool and we all assumed that meant we'd be able to use it as a supply hub and the brass had to explain it'd be another year before the port could be used at all.

Most ocean ports have been cleared out by now, but ports that are less useful for global trade and less used are still being managed; I think most Baltic ports are rated "operational" but not "clear" - you can't swim in the waters of Tallinn, for example.

Article:
I know grunts like to bitch about fighting to clear a city, but imagine a city underwater, a city of sunken ships and cars and planes and every kind of debris imaginable. During the evacuation, when a lot of container ships were trying to make as much room as they could, a lot of them dumped their cargo overboard. Couches, toaster ovens, mountains and mountains of clothes.


Casualty rates don't lie. Harbour clearances may be unnerving - I have no doubt they are, in fact - but they aren't equivalent to city clearance, cmon.

I don't think I could do his job - the sensory deprivation alone sounds like hell, nevermind the claustrophobia and relative blindness, and he communicates a lot of the feelings of it in this section, its very evocative - but he's talking absolute shit when he tries to compare it to urban clearance. Maybe it felt similar, but the risk was objectively far smaller.

The actual sunken ships, I will grant, sound genuinely traumatic to deal with - he talks about this one ship he had to clear, and, I mean…

Article:
I was cutting through a bulkhead above the Cable's engine room when suddenly the deck just collapsed under me. Before I could swim, before I could think…there were hundreds of them in the engine room. I was engulfed, drowning in legs and arms and hunks of meat. If I ever had a recurring nightmare, and I'm not saying I do, because I don't, but if I did, I'd be right back in there, only this time I'm completely naked…I mean I would be.


I have recurring nightmares of a labyrinth of crumbling Victorian sewers and tunnel systems. Running to look for someone, turning every corner to find another twist, another turn, sucking mud slowing me down, staggering through the dark and the damp, knowing I won't reach them in time, running anyway. Waking up right before I reach her.

Nightmare war.

Article:
[I am surprised at how quickly we reach the bottom. It looks like a desert wasteland, glowing white against the permanent darkness. I see the stumps of wire coral, broken and trampled by the living dead.]

There they are.

[I look up to see the swarm, roughly sixty of them, walking out of the desert night.


It is genuinely depressing how much biodiversity was lost to the Ghouls. Not even, like, what you'd expect; lots of people think about, like, deer or foxes or what have you, but the stuff that really lost out? Coral, various delicate plants, a lot of stationary animals, like mussels and other filter feeders. Stuff that can't run away. It sucks.

Article:
[He moves down the swarm, tagging each one with a nonlethal shot.]

Kills me not to kill them. I mean, I know the whole point is to study their movements, set up an early warning network. I know that if we had the resources to clear them all we would. Still . . .


This is neat, from a scientific perspective; tracking the migratory patterns of the undersea ghouls. Did you know they follow storms? Cause they do. Whole packs of ghouls staggering after some Cat 5 Hurricane. It's… a little problematic. Some poor island will be rebuilding from a natural disaster and suddenly be up to their eyeballs in salt-crusted, water-saturated ghouls.

Almost no real military value I can see, though; there's enough of the fuckers down there that you can just assume they'll come out of the surf anywhere and everywhere you work coastal.

Article:
How do they do it? How are they still around? Nothing in the world corrodes like saltwater. These Gs should have gone way before the ones on land. Their clothes sure did, anything organic like cloth or leather.


American insistence on there being a scientific explanation for the horrors that withstand pressure high enough to crumple a submarine like a tin can is crazy.

They live because they hate us.

Article:
it? I'm sure someone real high up has all the answers and I'm sure the only reason they don't tell me is . . .

[He is suddenly distracted by a flashing light on his instrument panel.]

Hey, hey, hey. Check this out.

[I look down at my own panel. The readouts are incomprehensible.]

We got a hot one, pretty healthy rad count. Must be from the Indian Ocean, Iranian or Paki, or maybe that ChiCom attack boat that went down off Manihi. How about that?


Absolutely guarantee he was about to say some prime conspiratorial shit before being distracted. You haven't seen crazy conspiracists until you've seen the veterans of the apocalypse who are still out there fighting ghouls. Everyone still in that game is in it with some crank shit to prove.

As to the rest, I'm not a radiation-truther about the ghouls - I don't think they're, like, created by radiation, but it is weird how long they stay clicking on a Geiger counter even, like, in deep seawater?

Article:
You're lucky. This is one of the last manned recon dives. Next month it's all ROV, 100 percent Remotely Operated Vehicles.

There's been a lot of controversy over the use of ROVs for combat.

Never happen. The Sturge's[2] got way too much star power. She'd never let Congress go 'droid on us.


Got him onto his hobby horse. They were gearing up for a jab at Congress on this issue; they were probably going to do some senators for unpatriotic ideals or defeatism or something, keep them on their toes.

But like, obviously remote operated vehicles are fine for this; moving the person electronically operating a suit from being inside the suit to being at the end of a tether, safely ensconced in a ship? Costs almost nothing to the fighting ability, but dramatically reduces the risk.

Article:
Is there any validity to their argument?

What, you mean if robots are more efficient fighters than ADS divers? Hell no. All that talk about "limiting human casualties" is bullshit. We never lost a man in combat, not one! That guy they keep talking about, Chernov, he was killed after the war, on land, when he got wasted and passed out on a tram line. Fuckin' politicians.


"In combat" doing the heavy lifting here. Chernov got a lot of press because he had been a vocal advocate, but they lost a number of men to rockfalls, adverse terrain like his own ship collapse and a few to spontaneous suit failure; a lot of this shit is decades old, and if it fails to stand up to the pressure it's rated for, then the guy in it is dead before he knows anything is wrong.

The accident with Deep Glider 4 was probably the death knell of this program. A whole crew and a civilian ridealong getting turned into a fucking soup at the bottom of the Atlantic made all the claims about being totally safe down there and not needing the ROVs look, frankly, idiotic? The 'Sturgeon General' is fighting for her own career now, never mind the rest of the service.

Article:
That's why I'm still here, same with the Sturge, and almost all the other vets who took the plunge during the war. Most of us are still involved because we have to be, because they still haven't yet come up with a collection of chips and bits to replace us. Believe me, once they do, I'll not only never look at an exosuit again, I'll quit the navy and pull a full-on Alpha November Alpha.


I hope he finds some modicum of the peace he wants here, honestly.

Like, maybe this is cancellable on my part - he is a fairly blasé soldier of an increasingly fascist military junta - but I do appreciate his, like, basic sincerity and honesty? He'll talk openly about their military doing reprisals against civilians, he's practically boiling with desire to talk about his conspiracy theories, and like… he's pretty much exclusively been killing ghouls? There's not a lot of actual human blood on his hands in all likelihood.

Interesting man.

Anyway, that's all for this update - it's Andre Renard next, and he deserves his own update. We've spoken a little, actually, but more on that when I dissect his interview.

Donate to the Sanatorium for Infirm Women in Russia [HERE]; as the HRE gets increasingly rolled up, they're opening up more and more of the awful, awful camps out there. It's really, really bad.

Donate to the Lakota [HERE] - they're trying to rebuild as well as they can.

Donate to a South American group of your choice [HERE] - it's a masterlist.

Donate to the Namibian Relief Fund [HERE] - the war is devastating for the people trapped there.

AN: I've noticed the better interviews are sometimes harder work for me, because like, I think in the text of the work… he did all this stuff? This guy was a combat diver for the US navy. It went roughly how he describes it, and there's not a whole lot to add to that? But I've done what I can to make this interesting. Seasoned it through with a little more of my own story.
 
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There's no current in a canal, so you're working in both directions.

This is not only wrong, it's fatally wrong, at least depending on the kind of canal. Where I grew up in Phoenix, we were warned to stay away from the irrigation canals because if you slipped in, the undertow would drown you in seconds.

Do not swim in canals.

Absolutely guarantee he was about to say some prime conspiratorial shit before being distracted. You haven't seen crazy conspiracists until you've seen the veterans of the apocalypse who are still out there fighting ghouls. Everyone still in that game is in it with some crank shit to prove.

Bioweapon theory is the dumbest, it's inevitably just an excuse to blame the Russians/Chinese/Japanese/Jews/Americans for everything. Aliens is an extension of this.

Radiation theory is pseudoscience. The scientific explanation is...well, the zombie virus has been observed in laboratory conditions, but it just doesn't add up.

Demonic possession...I mean, I can't say I'm particularly superstitious, but it's the walking dead, isn't it?

Chernov, he was killed after the war, on land, when he got wasted and passed out on a tram line. Fuckin' politicians.

People have conspiracy theories about Chernov, but he was an alcoholic for years, struggled with PTSD - it's why he was a big advocate for expanding the drone program, fewer humans to experience what he did. It's just not unreasonable at all that he died in a drunken accident, even if the timing was bad.

The 'Sturgeon General' is fighting for her own career now, never mind the rest of the service.

I sympathize with the DSCC, as the only branch of the US Armed Forces that has never killed another human being. As a branch created during the war the Sturge had to battle through inter-service rivalries and DeStRes for everything.

The institutional culture of the DSCC was also...political. I mean, the fact that Choi is even talking about Troll, even if he doesn't let his own opinion slip. And the DSCC is basically completely useless in human-human conflicts, so there are people in the Junta who would like nothing more than to gut them for spare parts. Which now will probably happen, feels kind of bad.
 
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What the fuck is a bangstick?

It's basically a charge on a poll, sometimes a bullet. You put it against a target and then it goes bang.

Generally not as good as actual underwater fire arms though.

This was actually more of a pain in the arse than you'd think, I've heard. See, these suits aren't rated to be hosed down with gunfire, so getting the ghouls off the suit safely was… not trivial? You had to use, like, bargepoles and shit. I never shared a theatre with the hardsuits, personally, but like… this sounds appalling.

Done that a few times. Including one guy who died basically of panic when we were trying to pull the poor bastard out. This wasn't a proper deep dive suit though, just something some group of scavengers had put together.

I'll tell you what fucking sucks though - doing a naval assault against a human enemy, now. We can't exactly sit off the coast and draw away any ghouls under the waves, right? They'll notice.

Probably the best opposed landings you'll see are the recent ones in Central America, where you can see the Mexicans are using depth charges to accelerate the process of drawing the ghouls away from the coast, approximately a minute in advance of the launch of their landing crafts - even then, I wouldn't want do it without the level of complete military supremacy they're able to enforce over the Honduran coast. God only knows what it'll look like as and when some of the other flash points go hot.

I think, now that China, Spain, etc. have active helicopter production again we'll probably see a shift towards aerial envelopment of the beach head and then taking it from inland before actual landing craft come ashore for this reason. The Spanish recently did this against some crazy cult out on the Canary Islands. The cthluthu worshipers (I know they don't actually worship cthluhu don't @ me) were somewhat under armed though, with no MANPADs despite being the remains of some rich mans sanctum.

So long term the real shift to vertical envelopment will likely come with the rebuilding of gunship fleets because transport helicopters will need escorts.

For now I think most European forces are just going to rely on like, a bunch of decoy clearences to maintain tactical surprise on what beach to land on.

Harbour clearances take so much longer than you think, I swear to god. I didn't realise how long it took until we reached Liverpool and we all assumed that meant we'd be able to use it as a supply hub and the brass had to explain it'd be another year before the port could be used at all.

You could of course just do what salvagers like me did and heavily Z proof your boat, though that makes a lot of problems with large scale cargo unloading. What exactly counts as "clear" and what counts as "acceptable numbers of people getting injured and cargos getting disrupted by Zs" depends on the group and the port.

You can also land at a point where it's complex for Zs to get out of the water at you, or where you can block a single set of steps, either with your boat or with a specially built obstacle and get up that way. That's more for salvagers though rather than actually loading and unloading lots of cargo.

American insistence on there being a scientific explanation for the horrors that withstand pressure high enough to crumple a submarine like a tin can is crazy.

They live because they hate us.

As to the rest, I'm not a radiation-truther about the ghouls - I don't think they're, like, created by radiation, but it is weird how long they stay clicking on a Geiger counter even, like, in deep seawater?

I heard rumours actually that there's some really twisted shit happening when you bring up ghouls who've gone really deep sea. A friend I know in the Spainish army told me that the Canary Island Cult had the remains of a ghoul swarm that had come up from a cruise ship that gone down deep. Like, liquify the bones deep, and that it had become some writhing mass of twisted flesh down there, with one ghoul partly merged into another. This is what the cult, according to rumour, was worshipping.

This is of course, only rumours, and we've all heard about a billion rumours of Ghouls doing this or that or spawning into demons or whatever.

I'm not sure it fully makes sense given some of the other stuff we've seen from deep oceanic swarms (IE, not that). On the other hand, it's notable that the Spanish have been very mysterious about the raid, without the usual footage, and that they hit the Canary Island cult hard in a way they haven't for several equivilent groups along the coast of the med.

It could also be that this was just because it was on what's officially Spanish territory. But the lack of footage is a bit wierd. Especially given it's actually making people speculate about it much more.

Edit: I fully support the RV thing. There's no point in sending a guy down who needs air and can get bitten when you can just send a robot, or a munition that doesn't.
 
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Sucking air through my teeth reading about going into a Deep Glider, honestly. It wasn't this one - they didn't go super deep around Hawaii - it was the one in the North Atlantic, but still. You couldn't pay me.
The accident with Deep Glider 4 was probably the death knell of this program. A whole crew and a civilian ridealong getting turned into a fucking soup at the bottom of the Atlantic made all the claims about being totally safe down there and not needing the ROVs look, frankly, idiotic? The 'Sturgeon General' is fighting for her own career now, never mind the rest of the service.

I see Stockton Rush has been up to his usual antics.
 
This is not only wrong, it's fatally wrong, at least depending on the kind of canal. Where I grew up in Phoenix, we were warned to stay away from the irrigation canals because if you slipped in, the undertow would drown you in seconds.

Do not swim in canals.

OOC: absolutely correct! A lot of canals in the UK are standing water but even still - canals can and will fuck you up, and are often going to have odd and unexpected currents. Also, most canals will be full of the most vile bugs known to man.

But my narrator doesn't know shit about canals, any more than I did before writing this chapter! And since the unified World Wide Web has taken a battering with the apocalypse, looking stuff up is much much harder for her than for me.
 
Bioweapon theory is the dumbest, it's inevitably just an excuse to blame the Russians/Chinese/Japanese/Jews/Americans for everything. Aliens is an extension of this.

My big question with the aliens theory, is like, why the zombie virus why not like, a kinetic. Or, indeed, if they want the biosphere which is possible, why not finish us off? Or make something enormously more capable. If it is alien I think it's more like "long dormant nanomachines in the rock" aliens.
 
IC:
Hi, been a while, mostly been busy with work around the village, had a bit of a scare with the Comms going down for a while, but generally just the normal Frontier Lifestyle challenges.

Though I confess, I don't know how much it cost to make a gas-powered gun work at depth.
Most 'Modern' style Ballistics should work decently well, maybe with some modifications to make sure that the saltwater doesn't corrode the internals. Physics wise, the largest problem is going to be that Ballistics in general are just... less effective than it is in the Open Air, due to how dense and hard to move Water is.

But as the guy says, the biggest issue for those Exosuits is that they don't have human equivalent hands.


Other than that, there's the weirdness with the whole 'Sharksuit and Speargun' stuff, like, that level of equipment was generally reserved for actual Militia units and whatever remained of the relevant Militaries, since you could *generally* get the majority of dangerous Zeke out of your important bodies of water from a boat or raised position. At which point you could sink some Zeke Nets and just keep them off the beaches, or improvise some walls if you don't have the ability to make the Nets.

Anything like a Swamp, Civies generally refused to handle, since that's just asking for your limited Divers to be swarmed and ripped apart in the darkness, and you are just bluntly *never* going to get that last Zeke in the depths, no matter how recklessly you sweep it.
 
Canals are worse, by the way, than rivers. In a river, you can work one way - ghouls in the water aren't capable of moving upstream, so you can just point upriver, in full confidence that you don't need to watch your back. Extremely useful when we were clearing out Oxford - the Isis would've been impossible to deal with if the dive teams had to worry about ghouls from every town and city from Reading to London. There's no current in a canal, so you're working in both directions.
Being that canals are artificial waterways, you can also just close the sluice upstream, open it downstream, and drain the whole lot.

Of course, half the ghouls in the waterway will show up to say hello.
 
From what I have heard, in America the waterway clearances were a nightmare, but most of that heavy lifting was done around the Great Lakes by the Socialist Republic, obviously, or the Mississippi by the CSA, so it gets pretty short shrift in a polemic like this.

The CSA took credit for the lower Mississippi but they were certainly helped by the fact that every spring any zekes in the channel below the Missouri and Ohio confluences get flushed out to sea by floods. Obviously some get caught up on something or deposited in fields where the levees weren't maintained but human bodies are light enough most just get swept along or ground up by debris.
 
Physics wise, the largest problem is going to be that Ballistics in general are just... less effective than it is in the Open Air, due to how dense and hard to move Water is.

I've heard secondhand that depth charges/underwater explosives are both more effective and less effective than you would hope.

If you can get a crowd of ghouls tightly clustered in a defined area, setting off a depth charge will wipe them out. Apparently more effectively than on the surface, due to how the shockwaves propagate underwater. If the targets are spread out, explosives are less effective than on the surface because the blast effect tapers off faster.

The guys telling me this were several beers into the evening and swapping stories about dealing with swarms in and around the Saint Lawrence river.

-=-=-=-/-/-/-\-\-\-=-=-=-

OOC: Glad to see another chapter. Well done!
 
But anyway - brown water operations were the bulk of marine operations, and by a wide fucking margin the more important part - you cannot clear a city if the waterways are vomiting out ghouls, and cleaned out canal networks and lakes was a vital part of our infrastructural network.

Canals are worse, by the way, than rivers. In a river, you can work one way - ghouls in the water aren't capable of moving upstream, so you can just point upriver, in full confidence that you don't need to watch your back. Extremely useful when we were clearing out Oxford - the Isis would've been impossible to deal with if the dive teams had to worry about ghouls from every town and city from Reading to London. There's no current in a canal, so you're working in both directions.

The worst is subterranean waterways, like the labyrinth under London.

From what I have heard, in America the waterway clearances were a nightmare, but most of that heavy lifting was done around the Great Lakes by the Socialist Republic, obviously, or the Mississippi by the CSA, so it gets pretty short shrift in a polemic like this.
I've certainly heard that about others' waterway experiences, and to be sure, the Finger Lakes were obnoxious-to-outright-horrifying (there are few people I would trade wartime places with less than the poor bastards who were stuck slogging through Montezuma) but Erie was, in my experience, the exception.

The canal itself is only about 12 feet deep, and great lengths of it still have walkways and paths safe enough you could make like 1840 and grab a couple mules, hitch a net up to them and walk between the locks. Give the old New York State government that much, they kept it so well maintained even when the last gasp of commerce on the canal was in the Nineties, managing to keep it as bikeways and tourist attractions (I think by the end my sisters and I had dredged equal weights of ghouls and fucking pamphlets from the canal bed).
 
I've volunteered as a civilian, uh, "Beach Watcher" before (I think different places have different names? Best euphemism I heard was "Beach Combers"), both in Cuba and back in the States and man. During the War and for some time afterwards it was definitely one of those jobs that's boring as hell until it isn't. Haven't done it in awhile but from what I hear it's now just mostly boring, with the occasional tense moment, which I'll take as an improvement.

I won't lie, the idea of these ocean hordes being just...a permanent thing we'll have to live with is a bit depressing. Not so much for its effects on humans (plenty of ways to deal with them, as has been discussed) but because it's just going to be a constant stressor on ocean ecosystems. Not my particular field of expertise, but regular ecological restoration is already complicated enough. Z's have made it...much more difficult, especially for ocean ecosystems.
 
American deep sea dives to "track the swarms" are about as pointless as the Brazilian extermination dives. The purest ideological coping mechanism. A refusal to acknowledge that past a certain point, the ghouls are just something we have to live with.
The American government is defined in large part by a desire to go back, to return to a time when things were Good and Normal. A time with 9-5 jobs and fast food, when there was one unified America and not a bunch of separate states marching to the same beat at great expense, when American industry and diplomacy lead the world. Why wouldn't they want that? And if the infected destroyed the normal world, wouldn't making the world normal again require exterminating every ghoul?

"Oh, I don't need rescuing, I'll just wait for hours in the pitch black in a suit that I have no control over, oh-"

Idiocy.
Even odds they just wanted an excuse to nap. Underwater ghoul-fighting is strenuous; the divers have to move not just their weapons, but their ADS suits and all the water around them. And chronic sleep deprivation remains pretty common, so...

Most ocean ports have been cleared out by now, but ports that are less useful for global trade and less used are still being managed; I think most Baltic ports are rated "operational" but not "clear" - you can't swim in the waters of Tallinn, for example.
The Great Lakes aren't clear, but the infected are kept away from major ports. From what I've heard, our strategy isn't trying to wipe out everyone wandering the lake beds; it's a combination of making it difficult for the infected to approach ports and detecting when they do.
Part of that is the lack of hardsuits up here. We've got drysuits, of course, but those don't have the "I can't tell if zombies are attacking me" perk, so combat against unknown numbers of infected is...unfavorable.

Long and short of it is, don't swim in most of the Lakes, but the area around Chicago and other big cities is usually fine, as long as there isn't a "ghoul alert".

Casualty rates don't lie. Harbour clearances may be unnerving - I have no doubt they are, in fact - but they aren't equivalent to city clearance, cmon.
I've barely participated in city clearance, but...yeah. Harbors don't have uniquely high population densities; the infected don't congregate, and are as likely to wander out as in. Harbors don't have houses where every room needs to be searched and every closet could have an infected someone locked up because they couldn't euthanize their loved ones. And of course, you're not clearing harbors in a wool coat and sweatpants.

I'd rather spend a year clearing harbors in a hardened ADS than a week sweeping through big towns and small cities. And don't get me started on the horror stories I've heard about Chicago or Milwaukee or Detroit.

It is genuinely depressing how much biodiversity was lost to the Ghouls. Not even, like, what you'd expect; lots of people think about, like, deer or foxes or what have you, but the stuff that really lost out? Coral, various delicate plants, a lot of stationary animals, like mussels and other filter feeders. Stuff that can't run away. It sucks.
That's hardly the end of it. Lots of sessile species are keystone species, coral being just the most obvious. No coral means no coral reefs means entire ecosystems are uprooted.

Granted, mussels and corals and some delicate plants weren't doing so great before the infected, but that's a whole separate issue.

American insistence on there being a scientific explanation for the horrors that withstand pressure high enough to crumple a submarine like a tin can is crazy.

They live because they hate us.
Anything that exists in the real world has a scientific explanation. Science is a tool for understanding the world around us. I will never understand people who are happy shrugging and saying "They just hate us, who cares how they work".

Even if you don't think understanding the world is an end in and of itself, understanding how the infected function would almost certainly let us deal with them more effectively. Maybe we could even cure them.


The scientific explanation is...well, the zombie virus has been observed in laboratory conditions, but it just doesn't add up.

Demonic possession...I mean, I can't say I'm particularly superstitious, but it's the walking dead, isn't it?
"Demonic possession" is not an explanation, it's a thought-terminating cliche. Research into solanum is actually working towards an explanation. Call me back when someone's identified traces of demonic ichor in infected blood or something.


I heard rumours actually that there's some really twisted shit happening when you bring up ghouls who've gone really deep sea. A friend I know in the Spainish army told me that the Canary Island Cult had the remains of a ghoul swarm that had come up from a cruise ship that gone down deep. Like, liquify the bones deep, and that it had become some writhing mass of twisted flesh down there, with one ghoul partly merged into another. This is what the cult, according to rumour, was worshipping.

This is of course, only rumours, and we've all heard about a billion rumours of Ghouls doing this or that or spawning into demons or whatever.

I'm not sure it fully makes sense given some of the other stuff we've seen from deep oceanic swarms (IE, not that). On the other hand, it's notable that the Spanish have been very mysterious about the raid, without the usual footage, and that they hit the Canary Island cult hard in a way they haven't for several equivilent groups along the coast of the med.
With tens of millions of infected wandering around the ocean floor...if pressure or R'lyeh or whatever could turn them into shoggoths, you'd think it would happen more than once. If infected spawned into demons in a thousand campfire stories, you'd think it would happen at least once when someone was recording it. Or at least when there were enough people around to get some firsthand eyewitness accounts, not just one single survivor who told his tale to your cousin before a dramatic death.

My big question with the aliens theory, is like, why the zombie virus why not like, a kinetic. Or, indeed, if they want the biosphere which is possible, why not finish us off? Or make something enormously more capable. If it is alien I think it's more like "long dormant nanomachines in the rock" aliens.
On one hand, I consider outer space to be one of the likelier sources of solanum. Unless the Bearnt Kuntzel manuscript or Francis Drake's "secret journal" or the Ft. Louis Philippe incident turn out to be genuine, solanum appeared out of nowhere.

On the other hand, and I cannot emphasize this enough, aliens are as much of a thought-terminating cliche as demons. They're just more sci-fi. The infected are infected by solanum. If we want to understand them, we need to understand solanum, not the theoretical alien masterminds behind solanum.



Article:
ABOARD USS HOLO KAI, OFF THE COAST OF THE HAWAIIAN ISLANDS

[Deep Glider 7 looks more like a twin fuselage aircraft than a minisub. I lie on my stomach in the starboard hull, looking out through a thick, transparent nose cone. My pilot, Master Chief Petty Officer Michael Choi, waves at me from the port hull. Choi is one of the "old-timers," possibly the most experienced diver in the U.S. Navy's Deep Submergence Combat Corps (DSCC). His gray temples and weathered crow's-feet clash violently with his almost adolescent enthusiasm. As the mother ship lowers us into the choppy Pacific, I detect a trace of "surfer dude" bleeding through Choi's otherwise neutral accent.]
A submarine built like an airplane is as ominous as an airplane built like a tank. I don't mean this, I mean this. They're vehicles with very different requirements, which results in either very different designs or catastrophic failure. Especially if you're putting the vehicle in an extreme environment like the deep sea.

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There was no risk of physical danger. Both your body and your life support are encased in a cast-aluminum or high-strength composite shell. Most models' joints are steel or titanium. [...]

[...]
Also, most ADS are wrought aluminium or cast magnesium. See again; incurious.
"Incurious" is a Roman author refusing to distinguish between iron and steel so no one thinks he has an ungentlemanly understanding of low-class work. This isn't performative incuriosity; this is ignorance combined with performance of technical knowledge.

My read on the situation is slightly different from veteranMortal's.
Their propaganda has always had this bent of like… scorn? Towards the professional classes, with this idea of like, more or less destroying the Professional-Managerial Class and the skilled labour class. America is a country of cops, soldiers, labourers and owners, with pretty sharp divisions between those categories, which means soldiers don't ask questions or care about, like, what a thing is, beyond how it works?
To me, it sounds less like cops/soldiers don't care about "what a thing is"; it sounds like they are trying to demonstrate the redundancy of skilled labor by performing knowledge of relevant technical details, without actually understanding those details. If any infantry grunt can understand military hardware as well as an egghead engineer, the egghead might as well pick up a hoe or a rifle.

(I'd work this into the in-character segment, but "my character" is a Great Lakes socialist trying not to say anything that catches the junta's eye. And calling them a bunch of anti-intellectuals poorly performing the role of skilled professionals seems like the kind of thing that "I" would worry about the junta seeing.)

It is genuinely very funny that there's an interviewee here that openly talks about how hardcover between him and the ghouls is enough to trivialise them to the point that "I can't tell if I am being attacked" is his going concern, and the cult of the rifleman in America remains so strong that this doesn't even twig to the journalist as being problematic to their argument that soldiers should be going around with no tanks or even body armour to speak of.

Like, did they not proofread their work?
A lot of this segment swings into Kojima-esque "Isn't advanced military technology cool?" In Kojima's case, this is in tension with his disdain for war; in Brooks's case, it's in tension with his disdain for technology, and specifically advanced military technology. Communication technology is blamed for the disaster at Yonkers, but sci-fi underwater exosuits are incredible!

I guess the difference is that exosuits make the individual soldier more badass, while wireless communications only let them coordinate better with other soldiers.

Article:
I was cutting through a bulkhead above the Cable's engine room when suddenly the deck just collapsed under me. Before I could swim, before I could think…there were hundreds of them in the engine room. I was engulfed, drowning in legs and arms and hunks of meat. If I ever had a recurring nightmare, and I'm not saying I do, because I don't, but if I did, I'd be right back in there, only this time I'm completely naked…I mean I would be.
I can't tell what Brooks's intended read on this is. I mean, surely the guy has recurring nightmares, but what are we supposed to think about that, and about the fact that he's trying to hide it while discussing it?
To me, it feels like machismo struggling against an honest desire to open up. But the world may never know.

Article:
Is there any validity to their argument?

What, you mean if robots are more efficient fighters than ADS divers? Hell no. All that talk about "limiting human casualties" is bullshit. We never lost a man in combat, not one! That guy they keep talking about, Chernov, he was killed after the war, on land, when he got wasted and passed out on a tram line. Fuckin' politicians.


"In combat" doing the heavy lifting here. Chernov got a lot of press because he had been a vocal advocate, but they lost a number of men to rockfalls, adverse terrain like his own ship collapse and a few to spontaneous suit failure; a lot of this shit is decades old, and if it fails to stand up to the pressure it's rated for, then the guy in it is dead before he knows anything is wrong.
Ah, see, this is more like what I was expecting. "Sci-fi underwater exosuits are cool and effective, but ROVs are dumb."
 
I've heard secondhand that depth charges/underwater explosives are both more effective and less effective than you would hope.
As you said later on, it's because the lethal effects if the blast propagate differently.

In Air, you're looking at shrapnel and maybe the physiological effects of the Shockwave, while Underwater the Shockwave conducts physical damage through Overpressure, same reason why High Power Sonar will kill basically anything in the water.

Which, hilariously enough, the Junta doing Depth Charges instead of Sonar is quite unintentionally telling of their actual capabilities.

I can't tell what Brooks's intended read on this is.
Brooks, for as much as he is under the effects of Shit In, Shit Out, is generally a good writer when it comes to these 'humanizing' bits. Whether it's intentional or not, these 'peeks behind the curtain' serve as a subtle 'tell' for when it's a purely Propaganda Piece or an actual person's account.
 
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