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In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)

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4.03 - A response
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    • There is a brief window of opportunity here, one momentary chance to make serious progress in your relationship with the Crane and thereby fulfil your objectives. It is one that you do not think you can afford to miss, and while you regret that the timing makes it impossible to consult with Bayushi Kimoko, you seize the opportunity with both hands.

    "Matsu-sama, whatever your quarrel is with Doji Mariko-san, you are being unspeakably rude." You say quietly, pitching your voice to carry easily to the ears of all those present and making sure to inject just the right note of menace into your words. You are a Scorpion, after all, and it is time to act like one. "This is, if nothing else, a gross failure of courtesy."

    The Matsu turns to face you, and if looks could kill you suspect her gaze would cut you in two. "I will not be lectured on Bushido by a Scorpion. This is no business of yours, and if you value your life you will stay out of it."

    "But that is just it, Matsu-sama." You say calmly, allowing your hand to touch the hilt of your katana as you match gazes with the furious samurai-ko. "By insulting Doji-san in this fashion, you insult me by association. If your rage is such that it overwhelms all propriety, if it can only be quenched by steel and blood, then I shall be your opponent."

    A ripple of whispering comments spreads out through the street around you, and the Matsu's eyes widen in surprise. Whatever outcome she expected, this is clearly not it. Still, she is no coward, and after a moment she simply nods curtly. Smiling, you turn towards Doji Mariko.

    "With your permission, of course, Doji-san?"

    Mariko seems to hesitate for a brief moment, doubtless weighing up the known skills of her Kakita champion against your own mysterious resources. Then her eyes harden as she comes to a decision, and she bows shallowly to you. "Your assistance is appreciated, Soshi-san. You have my thanks, and that of my family."

    You return her bow, then turn back towards the Matsu. "I will of course need to obtain the permission of my lord, Bayushi Kimoko-sama." You say calmly, enjoying the way that your opponent's eyes widen slightly at the name. It appears that your superior's reputation has spread somewhat. "Provide me with your name, Matsu-sama, and I will have a message sent to you once she has made her decision."

    The Lion straightens at that. "My name is Matsu Heijiko. Remember it, Scorpion, for it is the name of the one who kills you."

    You smile and bow shallowly. "A pleasure to meet you, Matsu Heijiko-san. Now, if that is all, I do still have plans for the rest of the day."

    Heijiko colors slightly at that, but simply shakes her head and turns to depart, vanishing quickly into the bustling streets. Slowly, the crowd disperses, though more than a few of the Lion present are studying you with an evaluating look in their eyes as they depart.

    -/-

    It is several minutes later when Doji Mariko speaks once more, the two of you having resumed your walk towards the Five Arches. You have sent a quick note with a messenger back to the castle to inform Bayushi Kimoko, not wishing to interrupt whatever else she is currently doing but preferring to inform her directly rather than allowing her to hear of it from someone else. Otherwise, the two of you have remained silent, lost in your own thoughts.

    "I feel I must apologize, Soshi-san." Mariko says quietly, holding her fan in such a way as to obscure her mouth. "I have forced you into a most unfortunate situation."

    "The decision was mine, Doji-san." You say calmly, hiding your curiousity. An apology is not what you were expecting.

    "And yet it was my conduct that made such a decision necessary in the first place." She says with a soft sigh. "I knew how the Matsu would react when I did not bring a gift. Heavens, I suspect even a child could have predicted it."

    You hesitate for a brief moment, then take a gamble. "You do only as your lord commands, Doji-san. No samurai can fault you for that."

    "Hm. I merely wish I understood why my lord commanded such a thing." Mariko all but whispers, as though speaking to herself. "The letter was genuine, and bore the Champion's own seal, but it is such a bizarre change of instructions..."

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    • Hello said:
    So what you are saying is we should go for Kenjutsu 3 to be reasonably adequate at the Bushi thing and then start stacking XP for Agility because not only does it make us good at combat, it also makes us better at being a courtier.
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    No. Agility does very little for us as a courtier. Its benefit is nonzero, but that's not the same as saying that it's huge. What I'm saying is that if your goal is to spend exp on being better at hitting people with swords, then you should buy kenjutsu 3 and then start stacking exp for Agility. I am also and independently saying that that should not be our goal.
     
    I'm definitely fine with grabbing Dangerous Beauty.

    I was just far more focused on the whole duel issue and didn't want to switch to focusing on Advantages until after the Main Vote had passed.
     
    Maugan Ra said:
    "Hm. I merely wish I understood why my lord commanded such a thing." Mariko all but whispers, as though speaking to herself. "The letter was genuine, and bore the Champion's own seal, but it is such a bizarre change of instructions..."
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    Ahhh! An opening!

    ...and one I don't currently have the ergs to know how to exploit.

    Things We Want (in no particular order):
    - To know the instructions in the letter
    - To see the letter
    - To know what her original instructions were
    - To know the circumstances associated with getting the letter.
    - To figure out if the letter was genuine or not... she might be convinced that it was genuine, but we are more aware of how such things can be faked.

    Also... just because it has the Champion's seal does not mean that the Champion put it there. Likewise, seals, too, can be faked.

    You know, if it turns out that this is a *Scorpion* plot we're putting ourselves in mortal danger to unravel... well, I guess that means we unravel it and then frame someone else. We'd certainly have the credibility for it.
     
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    Another possibility: it is genuine and it was done by the Campion... but the Champion is being coerced, tricked, or forced in some way to do this.

    God knows who or what would be able to strongarm a Clan Champion to such a degree however.
     
    I guess this opening is our reward for picking a fight.
    Sirrocco said:
    You know, if it turns out that this is a *Scorpion* plot we're putting ourselves in mortal danger to unravel... well, I guess that means we unravel it and then frame someone else. We'd certainly have the credibility for it.
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    You see this was not actually a scorpion plot, for no scorpion would unravel their own plot therefore the plot is an attempt to frame the scorpions.
     
    Well, i hope our stats are up to the challenge.

    For those people here that actually know the system, how good seem our chances?
     
    We need forgery to study that letter.

    Or to make a fake to incriminate someone else.
    Could we buy it now? It is not like we have access to it just this moment.

    What do you think would be best?

    To try and get the letter or to ask for information on what was the prior order.
     
    Comes down to init and luck. She's probably better than us. But she was probably banking on convincing the Kakita to go full kenjutsu and not iaijutsu. Which is why she went full on this

    In other news. I have a new head canon image for Naoto without his mask


    (With respect to Kang Dong Hwa)
     
    Broken25 said:
    Well, i hope our stats are up to the challenge.

    For those people here that actually know the system, how good seem our chances?
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    That depends *entirely* on the stats of the bushi we're up against. Really, it could be a curbstomp in either direction.

    So... another thought has occurred to me. We have other goals. In particular, we don't want to make it look to Doji Mariko that our interest in this is excessive. Obviously, we'll have some interest. Clearly we care about Mariko-san (given that we're willing to risk our life on her behalf), and as an attendant at court, we might have some natural curiosity (as their behavior did seem at odds with the Crane tendencies towards being a peace-and-rebuilding faction). We really *don't* want to make it obvious how intently were interested in this, however. It'll giver her a very serious (and this time fully real) hook in us, and also tell her what to guard and make her more guarded overall.

    Then, too... Crane courtiers don't make random side comments by chance - certainly not about potentially delicate things like oddities in the orders they have been given. She's being entirely intentional about this.
    - She's unlikely to be doing it out of an honest feeling of obligation. If we are what we are presenting ourselves as, we'd be more interested in her gratitude than in odd details such as this one.
    - She might be doing it as an opening to ask for our help on the matter. We're all slippery and Scorpion, and we appear to wish her to live. She *also* wishes to live, and her orders appear highly likely to get her killed - if not by this Matsu, then by the next. The Matsu have no end to their supply of angry honorable warriors who desire to pit their lives against the foe in honorable comment, and the insult she has given is such that any one of them could quite honorably decide to do the same thing (...assuming that Matsu Ketsui decides to let them). She can't find a way out, but we might be able to.
    - It's highly likely that she's doing this as a gambit. She's dangling this bit of information in front of us to see how we react. After all, out behavior at this point is in no way stereotypical Scorpion. We've accepted a challenge from a Lion that might well wind up killing us. We could be doing it for reasons of honor... but that's almost bizarre as a reason for a Scorpion to do anything. We could be doing it out of personal affection for her and interest in her... but we already told Daidoji Chen that our interest was not yet serious, and subordinate to our duty. The reason that makes the most sense is that we'd be doing it because it serves the interests of our clan in some way. It's pretty well known that Scorpion are willing to embrace dishonor and death if it best serves their clan. So, she must ask, how could risking ourselves in this way possibly serve our clan? She herself does not have the influence of Otomo-sama. Indeed, she's likely seeing herself as a sacrificial piece. The letter, then, is the most obvious link. It is the other bizarre thing about this Winter Court, as far as she is concerned. She dangles it in front of us, then, to see how we react, and try to ferret out more of our true motives.

    Side note: it's entirely possible that one of her reasons for accepting our assistance was to preserve the life of her friend. After all, if we die, and she much commit jigai... well, that is the end of it. The honor of the Lion clan is assuaged with blood, the one who has insulted their diamyo is dead, and there's no need to go after either of her retainers. If she's accepted that she's pretty much going to die here, then at least she can avoid taking him with her.

    gman391 said:
    Comes down to init and luck. She's probably better than us. But she was probably banking on convincing the Kakita to go full kenjutsu and not iaijutsu. Which is why she went full on this.
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    If she was doing it in cold blood, she'd *know* better than that. A doji courtier is never going to let her Kakita duelist fight a Matsu in a kenjutsu duel. "We wish we could duel those bloody Kakita in kenjutsu but we can't" is an almost integral part of the Matsu family culture by now. Regardless, she wasn't expecting to fight *us*. Also, she knows little enough of the goings-on at court that she didn't recognize us - hadn't even put two and two together and realized who our lord was. She might not have been aware that Doji Mariko had a Kakita on-site at all. He hasn't necessarily been making himself all that visible.
     
    La La la la La...



    Also, I am trying to locate the post where Otomo gives us the job of infiltrating the Crane. Anyone know which threadmark that is?
     
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    Could we turn the duel into one of a game of Go? We're good at Go, and it's an honorable and big-deal game.

    Or are we entirely shit out of luck on that; it's the Lion who gets to choose? And she's going to choose Kenjutsu.
     
    Garlak said:
    Could we turn the duel into one of a game of Go? We're good at Go, and it's an honorable and big-deal game.

    Or are we entirely shit out of luck on that; it's the Lion who gets to choose? And she's going to choose Kenjutsu.
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    We are completely out of luck on that. It's not a "gets to choose" - it's a "iajutsu, unless decided otherwise". In this particular case, we can insist on iajutsu, because iajutsu, but kenjutsu is Lion-preferred. If we want kenjutsu, it'll be hard for the Matsu to say no to that. I'm not thinking that there's any other form of dueling that we'd be able to push through.
     
    gman391 said:
    Comes down to init and luck. She's probably better than us. But she was probably banking on convincing the Kakita to go full kenjutsu and not iaijutsu. Which is why she went full on this

    In other news. I have a new head canon image for Naoto without his mask


    (With respect to Kang Dong Hwa)
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    You know, I really like that image. Judging by the likes given, I'm thinking quite a few others do as well. So why not, I'll add it to the character sheet for posterity.
     
    Sirrocco said:
    We are completely out of luck on that. It's not a "gets to choose" - it's a "iajutsu, unless decided otherwise". In this particular case, we can insist on iajutsu, because iajutsu, but kenjutsu is Lion-preferred. If we want kenjutsu, it'll be hard for the Matsu to say no to that. I'm not thinking that there's any other form of dueling that we'd be able to push through.
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    So what you mean to say, it is theoretically possible to force them to a non sword based duel.
     
    Dark as Silver said:
    So what you mean to say, it is theoretically possible to force them to a non sword based duel.
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    Maugan Ra said:
    It is indeed possible, but they would have to agree to it.
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    In other words, no. No it is not possible to *force* them into a non-sword-based duel. We can force iajutsu (because it's iajutsu), and we can force kenjutsu (because it's Matsu) and we can't force anything else. It is theoretically possible to get them to agree to some other form of duel, but practically speaking, they won't. Even if they were generally willing (which they wouldn't be) they know better than to accept odd suggestions from a Scorpion who desires their death.
     
    One potential course of action, in keeping with our being an oddball Scorpion, might be to tell her the truth about our involvement in this, and try to convince her to compare notes with Ikoma-san. This could cut straight through this troublesome mystery, or it could make a very big mess.

    A more conservative option is to only offer our expertise as a Scorpion to point out how the message could have been faked.



    Sirrocco said:
    In other words, no. No it is not possible to *force* them into a non-sword-based duel. We can force iajutsu (because it's iajutsu), and we can force kenjutsu (because it's Matsu) and we can't force anything else. It is theoretically possible to get them to agree to some other form of duel, but practically speaking, they won't. Even if they were generally willing (which they wouldn't be) they know better than to accept odd suggestions from a Scorpion who desires their death.
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    Considering that the Matsu have to demonstrate competence with multiple weapons for their gempukku, we might be able to poke her pride into fighting with unorthodox weapons. Not sure how much, if at all, that would benefit us.

    Making this a non-combat duel would be close to impossible. The only way I could possibly see it happening would be if Ketsui was very very pissed about this.
     
    Random theory-wall....

    So... let's try to work out some stuff about Doji Mariko. Note that the following is all pretty much various amounts of speculation. It also assumes that she is not actively lying to us. Crane courtiers tend to be more into honesty than lies, and we *have* shown ourselves as generally on her side.

    - She should have been able to determine by the orders she was given that they might well get her killed. She is loyal enough to her lord, though, that when he said "hey - I'm sending you on a suicide mission", she stood up and executed on it.

    - She has no defensible reason to believe that the letter was forged or otherwise falsified. It was *odd*, in some ways, but she is, at the very least, not in a position where she can honorably question it. We *are* in a position where we can honorably question it, but selling the idea might take a bit.

    - The letter is a dramatic change from her initial orders - most likely the same orders the Lion had been led to expect.

    - She probably doesn't want to die. Given that, she'd be delighted if we could hand her an honorable out on this one, particularly if we could do so in a way that serves her clan. Protip: We probably aren't huge fans of the honorable outs that serve her clan. As an example, she'd get super double bonus points if this could be proven to be a Scorpion plot. She's a courtier, so she's *good* at twisting things. We'll need to watch out for that. The high personal honor and the degree of home-field advantage will at least help there, but there's a definite possibility that they'll go for proof-by-iajutsu. Depends on how cold-blooded she is, among other things.

    - She likely has some fondness for us, just as we do for her. This is probably enough to have her prefer plans that don't utterly screw us over, all else being equal. It's not *nearly* enough to get her to not utterly screw us over if it's of significant benefit to her clan that she do so.

    - "You briefly consider denying any ulterior motives... but no, no one ever believes that when it is said by a Scorpion." She isn't going to buy a lack of ulterior motives... no should she. That means that we're going to have to come up with some ulterior motives that she'll accept, that'll have her acting as we wish her to, that are sufficient to explain our actions. That's going to be a bit tricky. We've pretty much straight-up acknowledged that our interest in her is significantly deeper than we'd previously let on.


    - In this particular case, she was pretty clearly trying fishing for dead Matsu. As soon as the Lion called out to her, her manner was designed to provoke, rather than calm. She was perfectly within the bounds of courtesy, but she was absolutely provoking further. She expected the Lion to say something horrible so that she could have her Kakita kill the Lion in a duel. It's entirely possible that one of the plans here is to provoke a whole mess of duels with second-string Lion because the Kakita is Just That Good, so that he (and by extension his school) can build their rep. If so, they're depending on not getting challenged by any Lion good enough to kill him.

    - She didn't expect us to step in. Neither did the Lion. Amusingly, we're doing very little of following Bayushi Kimiko's advice, and a lot more of following her example - acting in dramatic and unexpected ways, knocking people's feet out from under them, and moving while they scramble to adapt. She's responding by doing the same - dropping information (fascinating, game-changing information) she thinks we don't have, to see how we react.

    Side-thought: In honor of @primemountain, let's look at a potential worst-case scenario. This is all somehow a plot by the Crane to smear the Scorpion. The Crane are supposed to utterly insult the Lion, only to discover at some point that, oh horror, it was all the result of a Scorpion forgery. The Crane apologize deeply to the Lion while slapping the blame on us, trade through Beiden Pass grinds to a crawl, and money pours into the coffers of the Mantis while the two great foes of the Crane are set at each other's throats. It's a bit underhanded for the Crane (more a Scorpion thing), but within the realm of possibility.

    - 1 - It seems unlikely. Plots of this variety have high risks, a lot of moving parts, and they depend on other people reacting as you wish them to. It works a lot better if you have connections on the other side who are willing to act as you wish them to act, and in this case, they almost certainly don't.

    - 2 - If they are/were trying to pull something like this, then we're currently in a fairly good position to thwart it (and will continue to be so whether we die or not). The Scorpion delegation has a *lot* of goodwill built up with the Lion here, and Otomo-sama would be near-guaranteed to support us. The fact that we're willing to stand up and defend her in a duel to the death is another bit of breakage in that plan. Credibility is a thing, and at this point, "The Scorpion are being evil and making us look bad" doesn't have a whole lot of it.

    - 3 - If this is the plan, Doji Mariko isn't directly aware of it. If she had been, she wouldn't have enlisted our help straight-off, and she wouldn't be talking with us about it now. Alternately, it was the plan, she was aware of it, and she's now become aware that it's basically unworkable (see point 2) and is trying to salvage the situation by any means she can... like bringing us in as a consultant who could "discover" the forgery, and then letting *us* come up with a story to sell (In this winter court? *Far* easier to sell that sort of a story with the help of the Scorpion than targeting them).

    - 4 - If she is trying to get out from under it... well, her plans probably changed pretty much about the time when Bayushi Kimiko and Matsu Ketsui very nearly came to blows on the first day of Court. It was that moment when the Crane were all frozen, watching their plans utterly disintegrate. The original plan likely involved moving a lot slower and setting things up a lot better.

    Side-thought sub 2: that whole "connections on the other side who are willing to act as you wish them to act" thing... sounds a lot more like what the Crane Clan champion was trying to set up with the Lion. If so, this might well be an attempt at a spoiler by other factors within the Crane (or outside of it) who just wanted to derail whatever the Champion's plans were. As an example, if it was intending to lead to closer relations between Lion and Crane, possibly leading to the Crane not needing the Mantis quite so badly, the Mantis would be all over quashing that - particularly if they could drive the two apart hard enough to maybe start a little brushfire war that they themselves could be called in on - giving them their opportunity to face the Lion in battle while reaping yet more influence with the Crane. Given that the three most mercantile clans are the Crane, the Mantis, and the Crab (with the Unicorn there around the edges), anything the Mantis can do to make the Crane more indebted to them is to their advantage.

    As always, I'd be more than happy to have anyone else weigh in on this - be it further thoughts, follow-on thoughts, or disagreements.

    Jaertin said:
    Making this a non-combat duel would be close to impossible. The only way I could possibly see it happening would be if Ketsui was very very pissed about this.
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    Problem, even with that: we'd also have to get Mariko to agree to it. She was the one that was given the mortal insult, after all. Also, our role as "honorable adversary", while useful in many ways, explicitly does not protect us from dying on the blade of an honorable Matsu in an honorable duel.
     
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    I have a terrible feeling about this. Both about the duel itself, and about how our superior will react to our blatantly disobeying her orders to lay low.

    As to the duel itself, we'll want to pick up absolutely any advantage we can before the duel starts - maybe our Yogo friend can give us a few pre-battle spells to boost our abilities, though that would look incredibly bad if detected so I'm iffy on it. Likewise, anything that disadvantages the Lion is worth looking into.

    In the duel itself, our best shot is to do a ton of damage quickly, so that wound penalties start adding up. Void our damage rolls, and use honor rolls liberally to ensure we win.
     
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