In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)

[The king Chad]

Okay. I'll be more precise, and less glib.

The primary reason to suspect him, IC and OOC, was the idea that this was some sort of internal Crane thing - a struggle over the intentions of the clan. This was primarily because of the difficulties inherent in forging - both access to the Clan Champion's stamp and access to the Crane Clan cipher. There was also the fact that it was plausible that some Crane might wish to take a few pieces out of the Lion in the courts, in a form of revenge. Now we know that their access to the stamp was limited to a print of the stamp which they in turn copied by hand. We further know that there was something Freakishly Wrong about the person who did this thing - and the Crane are not known for their interest in dabbling in the Freakishly Wrong. Indeed, they are notable for basically not having shadowlands-tainted personalities (other than, eventually, the Asahina diamyo, but that happens later than this). If it's a "twisted freakish wrong thing" plot, it is *highly unlikely* to be a Crane plot. As such, both IC and OOC, we have very little reason to suspect Daidoji Chen any more than any other random person we know. IC, the fact that he's Crane (and has a face) makes it even less likely.

Oh. I just spotted another bit of foreshadowing. What gift did Doji Mariko present to the Lion?

Click to shrink...

None. No gift. She gave them nothing. That was the insult she started with trying to follow her orders. And Still disagree in thinking Chen is cleared, for several IC and OOC reasons. OOC having run a number of games myself, it's bad form to have a arc of this length without any resolution, and finding evidence of forgery is not resolution. My GM sense is saying the shadow is here in some capacity, and the players have more than likely already interacted with it's avatar. IC reasons is there is a long list of known shadowlands powers, including shapechange, mindreading, and literally wearing the skin of the person you imitate, and that Bog Hags (the standard for shadowland infiltration) can use the skins of men as well, just prefer women skins. IC it is also likely that the faction doing this would have some kind of observer posted here.

Oh, and our shadowlands lore is nonexistent, and also a low skill to demonstrate knowledge in that area. So...ya....vague, imprecise, and flat out wrong assumptions should be utilized.

TO THE CRAB FOR PLANNING OF THE THINGS!

 

[Night]

@Night : We literally cannot think that it is the Nothing IC, as we do not know that is a thing.
The Nothing as a whole falls under Forrbiden Lore. We do not have it.

Click to shrink...

Literally my point. Your proposed vote presupposes one possible answer. We don't know of the one possible answer, and indeed, we don't know enough about the obvious possible misdirect to assume it either.

 

[Sirrocco]

None. No gift.

Click to shrink...

Yes. She gave... Nothing.

So... my own suggestion for next action.

[x] "I see. It seems, Yogo-san, that you may find the opportunity you seek here after all."
[x] Discuss with Yogo Hanzo your respective interpretations and understandings of the situation and what it might imply. Inquire as to whether he might be able o use the same ability to seek out signs of this faceless thing, and determine whether it or anything like it might be here at the Winter Court
[x] Begin writing a letter back to your superiors in the Scorpion lands, detailing what you know of this threat and its actions. be as precise as you can. Wait for Bayushi Kimiko to vet it before you send.
[x] When the opportunity presents itself, report to Bayushi Kimoko on what you have learned and your intended actions. Accept any modifications to the plan she may offer. Ask her advice on whether or not to send another letter directly to the Scorpion representatives at the Crane Champion's Winter Court.
[x] Seek a brief moment with Ikoma Genji. Allow him to know that you have indeed solved his riddle - that while the second example was clearly written by a master, the first was but a pale imitation of the style, clearly composed by less worthy hands, and that this became clear once the two were seen together.

And now it occurs to me... we can pretty much trust (IC and OOC) that Ikoma Genji is clean, if only because whoever it is that set this up would be *highly unlikely* to employ a Scorpion to unravel it. For Otomo-sama, though? Well, it's not so very likely if the rebels are indeed being influenced by whoever this is.

It also occurs to me that the Kami are capable of spotting these beings, at least to some degree. Perhaps it might be worthwhile for Yogo Hanzo to wander about just... communing for a few days - trying to see if he can spot any particularly angry Kami. That might reduce notably the level of paranoia we need.

 

[GilliamYaeger]

Seek a brief moment with Ikoma Genji. Allow him to know that you have indeed solved his riddle - that while the second example was clearly written by a master, the first was but a pale imitation of the style, clearly composed by less worthy hands, and that this became clear once the two were seen together.

Click to shrink...

Maybe add a comment about how we don't think the Crab would appreciate the riddle?

 

[Sirrocco]

Maybe add a comment about how we don't think the Crab would appreciate the riddle?

Click to shrink...

Huh. If this were Hiruma Sousuke's Crab, I might agree, but it hasn't been but so many years since the Crab were the clan *most* rotted through by the Shadowlands. Anyway, that's the sort of thing that we can explain more in-depth later. For now, the fact that he most immediately needs to react to is that it wasn't the intent of the Crane Clan Champion, but that it also wasn't the doing of the local delegation (what's left of it). He himself can't do a whole lot with the whole "kind of like Shadowlands" thing.

 

[The king Chad]

Yes. She gave... Nothing.

So... my own suggestion for next action.

[x] "I see. It seems, Yogo-san, that you may find the opportunity you seek here after all."
[x] Discuss with Yogo Hanzo your respective interpretations and understandings of the situation and what it might imply. Inquire as to whether he might be able o use the same ability to seek out signs of this faceless thing, and determine whether it or anything like it might be here at the Winter Court
[x] Begin writing a letter back to your superiors in the Scorpion lands, detailing what you know of this threat and its actions. be as precise as you can. Wait for Bayushi Kimiko to vet it before you send.
[x] When the opportunity presents itself, report to Bayushi Kimoko on what you have learned and your intended actions. Accept any modifications to the plan she may offer. Ask her advice on whether or not to send another letter directly to the Scorpion representatives at the Crane Champion's Winter Court.
[x] Seek a brief moment with Ikoma Genji. Allow him to know that you have indeed solved his riddle - that while the second example was clearly written by a master, the first was but a pale imitation of the style, clearly composed by less worthy hands, and that this became clear once the two were seen together.

And now it occurs to me... we can pretty much trust (IC and OOC) that Ikoma Genji is clean, if only because whoever it is that set this up would be *highly unlikely* to employ a Scorpion to unravel it. For Otomo-sama, though? Well, it's not so very likely if the rebels are indeed being influenced by whoever this is.

It also occurs to me that the Kami are capable of spotting these beings, at least to some degree. Perhaps it might be worthwhile for Yogo Hanzo to wander about just... communing for a few days - trying to see if he can spot any particularly angry Kami. That might reduce notably the level of paranoia we need.

Click to shrink...

I disagree with the letter to our superiors, as at this point we would be jumping the gun and insulting Kimiko by going over her head by doing both. Soliciting the crabs for assistance (as we believe this to be the work of shadowlands infiltrators) would be good, but needs be delicatly done to avoid insulting the lion, crab, or both. I agree Genji is probably clean as the nothing would not be so stupid as to send an investigation at itself. Otomo is less certain, he's a man in a position of power whose job is to get the clans fighting each other so they can't usurp the emperor. If he's not a pawn he's prolly looked at as a future resource.

-edit
Actually.....wasn't the Otomo trying to start something when we saved his life and completely derailed his purpose here? Doji-chan might not have been the only one whose orders have been tampered with...

 

[GilliamYaeger]

I disagree with the letter to our superiors, as at this point we would be jumping the gun and insulting Kimiko by going over her head by doing both. Soliciting the crabs for assistance (as we believe this to be the work of shadowlands infiltrators) would be good, but needs be delicatly done to avoid insulting the lion, crab, or both. I agree Genji is probably clean as the nothing would not be so stupid as to send an investigation at itself. Otomo is less certain, he's a man in a position of power whose job is to get the clans fighting each other so they can't usurp the emperor. If he's not a pawn he's prolly looked at as a future resource.

Click to shrink...

Wait for Bayushi Kimiko to vet it before you send.

Click to shrink...

 

[The king Chad]

In any case it's not our call. Kimiko is the boss, it is our place to appraise her of the things, but her's to act on that knowledge. Overstepping our limits can be fatal. We simply do not have enough information to make an actual report that's more involved then, "Ya, Cranes got tricked on fake orders sent by someone the kami hate".

 

[Sirrocco]

In any case it's not our call. Kimiko is the boss, it is our place to appraise her of the things, but her's to act on that knowledge. Overstepping our limits can be fatal. We simply do not have enough information to make an actual report that's more involved then, "Ya, Cranes got tricked on fake orders sent by someone the kami hate".

Click to shrink...

Yes, but that's a critical piece of information that needs to get out *now* so that our people in other places can be on the lookout for it. The fact that this is happening is a game-changer for many of the games that Scorpion play, and the sooner they know to look, the more chances they might have to spot something funny that could lead them to more information. We're starting to write this thing before Bayushi Kimoko shows up because we don't know *when* she'll show up, letter writing takes a while, and we want to save time.

 

[veekie]

Hmm, I have a few questions:
-Is it possible to inform Mariko of the findings of supernatural interference before her suicide? Not to avert it, but to let her know she was not set up by her own clan as she goes to her death, and that we got the trail of the fucker who's going to get a good taste of Scorpion Revenge. Can this be honorably and discreetly done?

-I understand that Shugenja magic evidence is inadmissable in a court of law, but is it admissible evidence for directing action against supernatural taint? Not that we should do it immediately, we need a lot more investigation and passing the message on before we go public or act on it, but just something for later.

 

[Dark as Silver]

-I understand that Shugenja magic evidence is inadmissable in a court of law, but is it admissible evidence for directing action against supernatural taint? Not that we should do it immediately, we need a lot more investigation and passing the message on before we go public or act on it, but just something for later.

Click to shrink...

As I understand magic is inadmissible because the gods don't quite get the mortal world, at least in the same terms as mortals. There is nothing to prevent us flipping the hell out over it though.

 

[gman391]

It's inadmissble because the Scorpion's showed that spirits will do whatever you tell them to. So if you tell them to lie they will and you can't duel a spirit.

 

[primemountain]

Literally my point. Your proposed vote presupposes one possible answer. We don't know of the one possible answer, and indeed, we don't know enough about the obvious possible misdirect to assume it either.

Click to shrink...

My vote presupposes what our theology roll told us, that this is due to Taint. That is an answer we do know of, so I am not sure what exactly you are saying?

Though all this pointing out of court and law does mean Bayushi is unlikely to accept all of our suggestions, and far more likely to order us to discreetly ferret out the enemy. But the path I suggested is the one that lets me later on(and in time for it) make the argument that Marikos sepuku is basically doing the Shadowlands own work in furthering their plot, and thus, that any who are aware of it and condone it are now not only patsies and tools of the Taint, but active collaborators.

That still does not stop her from committing sepuku for other reasons, but it does seem like the best chance she is going to get. If only, so she can die a martyr, then as a failure.

 

[horngeek]

It's inadmissble because the Scorpion's showed that spirits will do whatever you tell them to. So if you tell them to lie they will and you can't duel a spirit.

Click to shrink...

To be more precise, they defended against a charge of murder against a general (where the general's ghost was a witness) by producing the general alive and well.

 

[veekie]

No, it doesn't change anything about the reason for the seppuku.

She insulted the Matsu thrice over in their own place of power, was challenged over the insults, and lost the challenge. That her orders were fake has no bearing on the matter of honor here. The insult remains fatally in need of an answer. She absolutely did make the insults, in front of witnesses.

It MIGHT, if leveraged right, be able to head off further Matsu/Crane conflict by pointing both their aggrieved rages at the root cause. But Mariko's only options are honorable death or Ronin. The most we can do for her is to let her die knowing what was to blame, and certain that vengeance will be carried out instead of shrouded in doubt.

 

[primemountain]

It MIGHT, if leveraged right, be able to head off further Matsu/Crane conflict by pointing both their aggrieved rages at the root cause.

Click to shrink...

This would be the main goal, followed closely by a letter the Crane Clan Champion would belive(Carrying the seals of Scorpion, Crane, Lion and Imperial), that his orders are being forged. If we can get these two things that is a definite win here. After that, we chase down the people that did the forging. That is what I want to do in the immediate future. Then we can chase down the Taint angle in the days to come.

 

[Maugan Ra]

No, it doesn't change anything about the reason for the seppuku.

She insulted the Matsu thrice over in their own place of power, was challenged over the insults, and lost the challenge. That her orders were fake has no bearing on the matter of honor here. The insult remains fatally in need of an answer. She absolutely did make the insults, in front of witnesses.

It MIGHT, if leveraged right, be able to head off further Matsu/Crane conflict by pointing both their aggrieved rages at the root cause. But Mariko's only options are honorable death or Ronin. The most we can do for her is to let her die knowing what was to blame, and certain that vengeance will be carried out instead of shrouded in doubt.

Click to shrink...

This is pretty much how things work, yes. Mariko lost a lethal duel by proxy - a thousand years of tradition and her own honour say she has to follow her champion into the afterlife, because if she won't then what is the point of having a challenge in the first place?

On a more general note, it's worth remembering that this is only a few years after the Second Day of Thunder, and as such a lot of the prejudices and ignorance about the Shadowlands Taint have been discarded. The current generation of samurai have seen hordes of demons march across their lands and slay thousands of their brethren, because their kin didn't know how to effectively fight back. Thus, they are both more knowledgeable and less adverse to discussing the Taint and everything it involves. It's not unreasonable to believe that some of the enemy forces hid when their master died and lingered on within Rokugan's borders.

 

[Sirrocco]

This would be the main goal, followed closely by a letter the Crane Clan Champion would belive(Carrying the seals of Scorpion, Crane, Lion and Imperial), that his orders are being forged. If we can get these two things that is a definite win here. After that, we chase down the people that did the forging. That is what I want to do in the immediate future. Then we can chase down the Taint angle in the days to come.

Click to shrink...

This is... *massive* overreach. It's also largely unnecessary, and quite possibly unhelpful. We have the following real objectives:

- Thwart the immediate plan of our adversary, here. This can probably be achieved by convincing Ikoma Genji of our findings, and then possibly setting something up between him and Daidoji Chen. That will give the Matsu cause to not hold this against the Crane (while also giving them someone else to hate - the Matsu like that). At that point, the massively provocative behavior of the Crane delegation will be something that the Champion has to deal with. Having a ready-made explanation for why it isn't either his fault or the fault of his people? That's not going to be a particularly hard sell.

- Determine if our enemy had any longer-term plans here - if so, thwart them. This is going to require careful dissemination of information and following up on leads. The first thing would be to try to figure out what our enemy's objectives were, exactly. Getting Daidoji Chen to tell us what the letter actually said (or, barring that, having our people break the crypto) would help with that one.

- Do what we can to thwart the intentions of the enemy elsewhere. This is best served by getting the word out (to our fellow Scorpion, who are obsessive about loyalty and can keep secrets) and likely disseminating it to at least some others. This doesn't require grand gestures or Terribly Important Conclaves or anything like that. One of the things that this whole thing produced for us is that we are no longer the center of attention. Let's not waste that too soon.

- Identify our adversary and do Horrible Things to them. This one is going to take longer, and require a rather lot of work.

 

[Garlak]

Does Yogo Hanzo think he'd be able to check if people have a similar sort of... aura as this paper did?

And any chance if he can do such sensing/testing subtly?

Because if we can use magic to vouch for people, that might be a way to make sure that Ikoma Genji, Otomo, Daidoji Chen, and etc, are clear.

And Still disagree in thinking Chen is cleared, for several IC and OOC reasons.

Click to shrink...

Question: Now that Doji Mariko is going to be dead, is Daidoji Chen in charge of the Crane Delegation? If so, does that mean he has influence and so on? Or is he not in charge and is going to be going back?

If Chen was replaced by a Nothing patsy or whatever, then he is now the only Crane in this Winter Court. Think on that.

On the other hand, if he's not a pod person and is just a normal guy... He might be pretty pissed about his boss and the Kakita dying, you know? If he was told about the false orders, he might be onboard with solving this shit. And also onboard with "not doing anything foolish or rash in the court".

So if he's a normal guy we might be able to get him on our side. And we might want to get him on our side, to keep things from escalating.

-Is it possible to inform Mariko of the findings of supernatural interference before her suicide? Not to avert it, but to let her know she was not set up by her own clan as she goes to her death, and that we got the trail of the fucker who's going to get a good taste of Scorpion Revenge. Can this be honorably and discreetly done?

Click to shrink...

Actually, I was thinking of that too, except I had a different idea -- Who was the one who passed on these orders? I wanted to see if she could tell us anything about the person who gave her the letter. It might just be a random and totally normal messenger person, but, well... maybe it'd be useful?

 

[veekie]

Well, thats the question. Can we talk to her or relay a message before her final moment while remaining within etiquette?

 

[noliar]

Well, thats the question. Can we talk to her or relay a message before her final moment while remaining within etiquette?

Click to shrink...

Even if it's just "I will find the one who set you up and avenge you." Which is the only part of it that might bring some comfort. That we are certain and that we will do something about it is more important than the details of copied stamps and pissed off kami that she can do nothing about. It's not like she can admit (in writing no less) to her Champion that she showed us the letter to back us up. On the other hand a note from the Scorpion saying "the letter instructing Doji Mariko happened to come into our hands" allows the assumption that anything dishonorable was done by the clan that already has that reputation and accepts it.

 

[primemountain]

@Sirrocco: "blue, lithe, faceless, empty." Who do we know that likes to wear blue? Cranes. Have you seen Chens image? He is lithe. So you want to solve the Crane issue by allowing Chen to know that it was Ikoma Genji who is on to the plot. Who benefits from the other two Cranes dieing? Oh, right. Chen. While not damning this is not the way to resolve the Crane/Matsu issue. Wayyyy to risky if Chen is our guy.

Also, dealing with the fallout outside of the Matsu Winter Court by spreading information to other Scorpions is a worthy step, but we should definitely inform the Crane Champion. He needs to act fast to limit fallout, and the very least we can do is offer the Scorpions in his court some additional leverage to believe them. Like Doji approving the letter and say, sending a transcript of her orders written in her own hand along with our message.

If we only send our messages to our superiors and then wait for them to write us back, we will add weeks to the turnaround time. Writing to other Scorpion helps them keep an eye on things but they still have to repeat all our work to prove it to anyone not Scorpion. And until then the Crane will be marching to a different beat. What has happened here may be happening all over Rokugan. We need to do what we can to help the Crane Champion contain it. Or all will suffer.

If you want to avoid a conclave, we can have a quiet meeting with Doji, and then discreetly go to the Ikoma for his seal as well. The main reason we are sending this by Scorpion mail is that we do not trust the regular messengers with something this important. Hell, I am tempted to go over to the Unicorn delegation and see if I cannot buy their services as messenger for the Champions letter. It is that urgent.

We already told Doji we would hunt down whoever did this, if we are to disturb her preparations it should be for something important, that only she can give.

I'll probably write a new vote a bit later to encompas all this.

 

[Sirrocco]

Huh. The whole "blue, lithe" thing is a good point. We have reasonably solid reason to believe (IC and OOC) that whoever it is is a Crane. Still, this gives us reason to believe that it is one Crane or a small number of Crane, rather than an entire movement of them. That is a stronger reason to pass word to the Crane Clan Champion... though I don't think we need as much built up around it as you suggest.

Doji Mariko received it as a letter. The circumstances were that she got a letter shortly before heading out, with not enough time to verify its contents. The only possible trail we could follow on that one would require having her remember enough to tell us about whichever random messenger gave her the letter, then finding that messenger, hoping the messenger recalls this particular message enough to remember where he got it, continue to follow back through however many improbable links, and hope to identify which one of them is lying. This all seems...tenuous, at best - especially if that first messenger is some random heimen that she's never met. Oh, and it requires that the foe not have quietly swapped the letters at some point along the way without the messenger knowing. Like I said - tenuous.

There is another thing. Doji Mariko, it seems, has always sought (and achieved) elegance in her activities. Now she wishes to prepare herself for death. She has handed us, readily, everything we might have desired, and now you would trouble her last moments by bursting in on her again and again, in the hope of gaining small and uncertain advantage? It seems lacking in Courtesy and Compassion. She knows that she has set us to the task. She knows that we are about it. I do not think she truly gains anything by knowing more - it will only disrupt the composure she seeks to approach her end with.

 

[EtchedSteel]

Who benefits from the other two Cranes dieing? Oh, right. Chen.

Click to shrink...

Wait, I'm not following. How does Chen benefit from having his superior and her champion dead? As far as I'm concerned, they three were the whole delegation of Crane in Lion lands.

 

[primemountain]

You have a point about the not disturbing her final moments thing. I guess we will just have to do without her seal.
The trail we have is the one we were given, we can study the letter further to try and figure out stuff about the thing that wrote it. It will just take a lot of time, and probably not give us anything concrete to go on.

I think maybe the plot mastermind has yet to arrive. The description sound more like a Kakita then a Daidoji. Maybe the Crane will send reinforcements after this loss, as retaliation, and our enemy will arrive with them?

Anyhow, new vote:
[x] Your face pales at the news. "Yogo-san, do you know of anything that would cause such a reaction in the Earth Kami? If needed, could you detect such a disturbance in Court or elsewhere?"
-[x]Secure both Scrolls with us. We are not letting them out of our sight to disappear. Keep our sword arm clear. Until this information is relayed we are at a higher risk.
[x] Report your findings of the forgery and Yogo-sans discoveries to Bayushi-sama tonight.
-[x] Mention that the only cases your heard of Earth Kami behaving so are when dealing with the Taint.
-[x] Note we may be able to learn more about the forger from further study of the letter.
-[x] Suggest we tell Genji of what we have discovered. Something like:"My thanks for the extra riddle. It was subtle of you to give one in a style like, but not of, the same as the first. If I did not know you were a steadfast Lion I would wonder if you had become tainted with guile by our competiton."
-[x] Suggest letters be written to any critical locations to inform Scorpions there of the forgery and the possiblity of false Crane orders.
--[x] Ask to send a letter to the Court of the Crane Champion. Include a transcript of Dojis falsified and still cyphered orders in the message. Suggest the Scorpion there should inform the Champion of the problem quickly while using the information for leverage or as a debt.
--[X] There is a Phoenix Loremaster at court. Asking Asoka Tani about the earth Kamis response might be a good idea, so long as we ask casually and carefully enough.
--[X] Everything about this matter should be handled discreetly, as we do not want to cause undue alarm and panic or warn our Enemy we are on to them.

EDIT: @EtchedSteel: He benefits if he is the enemy by being able to wreck everything now, insult anyone, and say truthfully: Lets wait until the end of court to resolve this, as I am the last Crane here. He can do what he wants to destabilize things further, he is his own Lord, and he is essentially untouchable. For a time. Time enough to incense the local beserkers. And he is all that is left representing the Crane. As far as the Matsu care, he is the Crane. So his behaviour will carry extra weight.
EDIT2: Magistrates bit removed due to Gm feedback.