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In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)

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Sirrocco said:
The only thing you reference here was the skill challenge itself, which was not a fight. At no point did anyone check for initiative, take a combat action, or anything else associated with fights in L5R. You didn't even argue that it was a fight. You argued that my point (about it being a skill challenge) was *irrelevant*. Thus, I went into my massive spiel to demonstrate, with a degree of conclusiveness, the *relevance* of my point. Given that you appear to have a willingness to make inapplicable arguments in pursuit of your goals, I believe you've demonstrated that being comprehensive was indeed warranted.
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Yes, because the implication of your post was that bugei skills have been irrelevant for us, outside of a single fight we won, and we haven't needed them for anything and by extension, can also count on that not happening anytime soon.

You're pushing on an open door with me by saying that we don't need to pour every last experience point into combat skills. I've never said anything to the contrary. But the example where we defended Otomo Kairyu shows that bugei skills aren't something always confined to easily avoidable fights that we should have no business participating in. We are a Bushi (responsible for fighting his own battles over matters of honour) in a court of the most aggressive, prickly and warlike clan in Rokugan. Even assuming there's no other ambushes/assassinations which Naoto could have reason to get caught up in in the future, we're unlikely to avoid getting caught up in further conflict.
 
I don't think we want to interact with the Matsu right now. They're basically going to be in "that was awesome/victory celebration" mode right now, and that sort of thing is best enjoyed with one's allies. Adding ourselves to that mess will only kill the buzz (unless we're there to somehow underline the awesome for them) and get them annoyed at us. Sharing the experience with them is a lot more Bayushi Kimiko's role than our own.

Just realized... we don't yet have the letter from Ikoma Genji to compare. By extension, there's absolutely no way to convince Doji Mariko to let us compare the letters before she kills herself (with Daidoji Chen as second, if applicable). If she is spending any prior time in preparation and also receiving visitors during that time, then we might be able to visit and convince her to share... something. Honorable seppuku has a cleansing effect on the soul, and she might be willing to share things that she otherwise would not have if we can convince her it is in the interests of her Lord - like what her new orders were, what her old orders were, and anything she might recall about the circumstances of the change. She would not have long to spend on us regardless.

I think right now, it's time to return to our roots. We've been away from them a bit long, but it would be good to get back.

[x] Unless Bayushi-sama tells you otherwise, watch quietly, from the periphery. Try to pick up what you can. In particular, determine if Daidoji Chen is in the audience, and attempt to discern his reaction. Attempt to discern Doji Mariko's reaction as well, if you can. Next highest priority would be the Mantis and Otomo-sama. After that, anything you might happen to notice.

Mariko to attempt to determine if we'll ahve any time to approach her, and what attitude to take when we do. Daidoji Chen to try to get a clue on if he was In On The Horrible Plan, and get cues for how to approach *him*. The Mantis to try to pick out their reaction because I think it might be informative, and Otomo-sama because we're pretty sure he'll care *somehow*, and he's a useful resource to have.

Also, while the waifu wars are *indeed* going to start up again, I think it perhaps best to wait on that for a period. Preferably, wait until someone else opens the flirting. Our sort-of-girlfriend is about to have just died, in an event that we were pretty adjacent to. A brief period of understated and unacknowledged mourning seems in order.

LastChronicler said:
Yes, because the implication of your post was that bugei skills have been irrelevant for us, outside of a single fight we won, and we haven't needed them for anything and by extension, can also count on that not happening anytime soon.

You're pushing on an open door with me by saying that we don't need to pour every last experience point into combat skills. I've never said anything to the contrary. But the example where we defended Otomo Kairyu shows that bugei skills aren't something always confined to easily avoidable fights that we should have no business participating in. We are a Bushi (responsible for fighting his own battles over matters of honour) in a court of the most aggressive, prickly and warlike clan in Rokugan. Even assuming there's no other ambushes/assassinations which Naoto could have reason to get caught up in in the future, we're unlikely to avoid getting caught up in further conflict.
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...and now I invite you to reread the post you described as an unwarranted massive spiel... which was so very massive in order to reduce or eliminate sources of confusion. Is there anything you have here that you feel is not adequately addressed there?
 
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Sirrocco said:
Also, while the waifu wars are *indeed* going to start up again, I think it perhaps best to wait on that for a period. Preferably, wait until someone else opens the flirting. Our sort-of-girlfriend is about to have just died, in an event that we were pretty adjacent to. A brief period of understated and unacknowledged mourning seems in order.
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We're in the perfect situation to do some public brooding, so some beautiful, kind, enterprising woman can swoop in and try to heal the wounded heart of the surprisingly honorable Scorpion bishounen. :V
 
Sirrocco said:
...and now I invite you to reread the post you described as an unwarranted massive spiel... which was so very massive in order to reduce or eliminate sources of confusion. Is there anything you have here that you feel is not adequately addressed there?
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Well, if you insist, yes, because of various factors that I didn't care too much to go into. Your first point assumed that 'passable' was all everyone wants in regard to Naoto's combat skills. Your second point assumes that the idea of character development is static and might not change due to influx of posters, situational factors arising during the story or just a change of mind among the players who previously thought otherwise. Your third ignores that players have been outright voting for actions that place us into harm's way, strangely seem to be asserting it as an objective fact that both of the two fights we've lost have been for the best (I'm unaware of why this should be in regards to our Crab opponent) and that the QM might not decide to or be forced to throw us a curveball in the form of more fights based on our own actions.

If you disagree with any of the above, that's fine, because I didn't care overly much until you insisted on bringing it up. It's more that your first post on the topic amounted to saying that we should shore up (social skill) deficiencies that we have at the moment (nothing to disagree with here), and then in the next breath, dismissed any possibility of future bugei skill use being relevant by virtue of only having used it on one occasion. Which is completely wrong.
 
LastChronicler said:
Well, if you insist, yes, because of various factors that I didn't care too much to go into. Your first point assumed that 'passable' was all everyone wants in regard to Naoto's combat skills. Your second point assumes that the idea of character development is static and might not change due to influx of posters, situational factors arising during the story or just a change of mind among the players who previously thought otherwise. Your third ignores that players have been outright voting for actions that place us into harm's way, strangely seem to be asserting it as an objective fact that both of the two fights we've lost have been for the best (I'm unaware of why this should be in regards to our Crab opponent) and that the QM might not decide to or be forced to throw us a curveball in the form of more fights based on our own actions.
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Ah. There is context you are missing here. Much of my post was addressed at least in part to people who have been arguing heavily for combat skill investment for some time, and referenced specific arguments that had been made in the past, in an attempt to explain why I felt those *specific* arguments no longer held sway. That was why I had the invitation further down for those on the "pro-combat" side of the argument to present any new major arguments (admittedly, I might have missed one or more previous major arguments for as well, in which case I further invite them to remind me of those). I have presented in the past arguments on why investing in other things is worthwhile, but that's not what I was attempting to do here.

Losing to the Crab opponent may have been more neutral than good, but it did result in some notable gain. We did so gracefully, which gained us a bit of honor and respect without cranking our apparent threat rating through the roof. It also kept us on better terms with the Crab bushi we were fighting - noted as being generous in victory but unpleasant in defeat - and got us an in to speak with the Crab delegation (and time to do so). That's not to say that we might not have gained other things by winning there and continuing on, but at that point, "lose gracefully" was basically our objective, and we voted accordingly.

It's true that the QM might do any number of things... but as I noted, the QM has repeatedly said that this is a game that's specifically intended to not be all that high in combat (or at least unavoidable combat), and our experience thus far has borne that out.

LastChronicler said:
If you disagree with any of the above, that's fine, because I didn't care overly much until you insisted on bringing it up. It's more that your first post on the topic amounted to saying that we should shore up (social skill) deficiencies that we have at the moment (nothing to disagree with here), and then in the next breath, dismissed any possibility of future bugei skill use being relevant by virtue of only having used it on one occasion. Which is completely wrong.
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I did no such thing. I think our social skills are fine. I said we should be shoring up our informational skills. Also, I'm not at all saying that we're never going to use our bugei skills (or at least I'm not at all intending to say that). I'm sure we will use them at some point. We're going to be involved in Hachiman's Tournament, if nothing else, and that one has mock battles. I just don't think we're going to use them often enough that we ought to make them an immediate priority. I even straight-up said that once we hit some of our informational priorities I'd be happy to go back and round out the combat stats. That doesn't sound anything like "dismissed any possibility of future bugei skill use" to me.

...or if I'm somehow missing what you're seeing, perhaps you could quote it for me?
 
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@Sirrocco: I think Mariko may have sent Chen away, or told him to be ready to leave, when we warned her who the oppoenent was training under. The instant they are done here, the Matsu can go after him and he has no Kakita to protect him anymore. I think Mariko may not have a Crane to be her Second, and we could fill that roll well. It would also allow us to get close to her. Checking the crowd for Chen seem superflous. If he was here he would be standing with Mariko.

Of course we have a way to convince her to hand over the letter. We can say we want vengeance against those that falsified her orders and placed her into a trap that took her life. She is dieing anyway, does it matter what her orders were? Chen will not be able to do them alone. Weigh that against the possiblity that other Cranes are just as trapped as she is. I think now, when she is facing death she might be more inclined to give us what we need. After all, sepuku clears the soul. Whatever dishonor she further comitts from this moment on will be cleansed when she commits sepuku.

What's a little more in service to her Clan Champion?
 
primemountain said:
@Sirrocco: I think Mariko may have sent Chen away, or told him to be ready to leave, when we warned her who the oppoenent was training under. The instant they are done here, the Matsu can go after him and he has no Kakita to protect him anymore. I think Mariko may not have a Crane to be her Second, and we could fill that roll well. It would also allow us to get close to her. Checking the crowd for Chen seem superflous. If he was here he would be standing with Mariko.

Of course we have a way to convince her to hand over the letter. We can say we want vengeance against those that falsified her orders and placed her into a trap that took her life. She is dieing anyway, does it matter what her orders were? Chen will not be able to do them alone. Weigh that against the possiblity that other Cranes are just as trapped as she is. I think now, when she is facing death she might be more inclined to give us what we need. After all, sepuku clears the soul. Whatever dishonor she further comitts from this moment on will be cleansed when she commits sepuku.

What's a little more in service to her Clan Champion?
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I think it is time for another etiquette check.

@Maugan Ra - I am under the impression that Daidoji Chen is largely safe at this point, and will remain so until and unless he does some significant new thing that deeply offends Matsu sensibilities. Others are under the impression that he is likely to be pulled into a duel to the death any day now if he stays, as the Matsu look to complete their hat trick of dead Crane. Could we get some feedback on this one please?
 
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[X] Unless Bayushi-sama tells you otherwise, watch quietly, from the periphery. Try to pick up what you can. In particular, determine if Daidoji Chen is in the audience, and attempt to discern his reaction. Attempt to discern Doji Mariko's reaction as well, if you can. Next highest priority would be the Mantis and Otomo-sama. After that, anything you might happen to notice.

Going with this for now. Dunno if we might want to go to the Crane instead, but.
primemountain said:
[X] "Truly today the Heaves have smiled upon the Matsu." Look at Bayushi-sama, and discreetly ask her permission to wade into the Matsu and try and salvage the Scorpions interests from this mess.
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Not sure that's a good idea primemountain. It feels a bit too much like blatant sucking up.

And also, it will make it harder for us to attempt any time-sensitive attempt to gain information from the Crane about the Champion's orders. Because Doji Mariko would see us immediately going to the Lion and praising them. We'd have a hard time getting any information out of her.
 
Garlak said:
Not sure that's a good idea primemountain. It feels a bit too much like blatant sucking up.

And also, it will make it harder for us to attempt any time-sensitive attempt to gain information from the Crane about the Champion's orders. Because Doji Mariko would see us immediately going to the Lion and praising them. We'd have a hard time getting any information out of her.
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Where in that post do you see me shouting? We are right next to Bayoush, i seriously doubt Doji can hear us from where she is. The Scorpions are on the outskirts of the crowd. It is a fact, plain for everyone to see, and it helps lubricate our way forward with the people who will hear us. Since we are standing with the Scorpion, we need to pass through the crowd of the mostly Matsu gathered here to reach Doji.

Besides, imagine the same words, but said sarcasticly or bitingly or disaproving or whatever. It only becomes blatant sucking up if we use the wrong tone. Hell we could make it a curse. Like the Matsu needed divine assitance in order to win. Etc.
 
Lets all take a moment to consider Wren. Shes probably celebrating that one of the obstacles to her forbidden love just got removed.
Stealth Waifu is coming, whether we want her or not.
 
Guys. I'm voting for Reflex indefinetly. The only thing I might be persuaded onto from this is high levels of stealth.
 
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Sirrocco said:
I think it is time for another etiquette check.

@Maugan Ra - I am under the impression that Daidoji Chen is largely safe at this point, and will remain so until and unless he does some significant new thing that deeply offends Matsu sensibilities. Others are under the impression that he is likely to be pulled into a duel to the death any day now if he stays, as the Matsu look to complete their hat trick of dead Crane. Could we get some feedback on this one please?
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He's actually reasonably safe here, yes. The Matsu's grudge was against Mariko (for her conduct) and the Kakita (for being a Kakita). The Daidoji tend to get a pass from a lot of otherwise hostlie Clans, and this is no exception. While he'll catch some degree of general anti-Crane sentiment, it's unlikely to be particularly major... at least, no more so than the disdain the Matsu direct towards everyone else.

Beyond that, he's now the only Crane representative at the Court. Duels can legally happen any time up to a year from the date of challenge, and while most come much faster, delaying until the end of Winter Court when you're the only representative of your Clan left is a pretty reasonable one. Plus, he would need to get his superior's permission for anything lethal.

He's not perfectly safe, but he's got decent odds of surviving so long as he keeps doing what he's been doing.
 
The Daidoji are the most respected (or only respected) family of the Crane among two of the three 'martial' clans, yeah.

The Unicorn are the exception, due to the Crane having... Essentially, backed them up when they returned to Rokugan. Which I find fascinating- it's a major odd friendship, given how radically different they are otherwise.
 
primemountain said:
Where in that post do you see me shouting? We are right next to Bayoush, i seriously doubt Doji can hear us from where she is. The Scorpions are on the outskirts of the crowd. It is a fact, plain for everyone to see, and it helps lubricate our way forward with the people who will hear us. Since we are standing with the Scorpion, we need to pass through the crowd of the mostly Matsu gathered here to reach Doji.

Besides, imagine the same words, but said sarcasticly or bitingly or disaproving or whatever. It only becomes blatant sucking up if we use the wrong tone. Hell we could make it a curse. Like the Matsu needed divine assitance in order to win. Etc.
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I don't think I said anything about shouting? It's not about her overhearing us; it's about her noticing that our first act was to go to the Matsu. And that her seeing this would affect our later chances of trying to get information from her.
 
[X]Look to Mariko to see if she wants us by her side, while asking:"Bayushi-sama?" If Mariko wants us by her side, and our Lord does not stop us, join her. Offer her support however we can.
-[X]See if you cannot further our orders while supporting Doji.
***
After some consideration and feedback, I've crafted a somewhat different vote.
 
[X]Look to Mariko to see if she wants us by her side, while asking:"Bayushi-sama?" If Mariko wants us by her side, and our Lord does not stop us, join her. Offer her support however we can.
-[X]See if you cannot further our orders while supporting Doji.

You know what, sure.

I can't imagine how she feels right now. I mean, she lives in a culture that accepts this as part of how life (and death) work, but...

Knowing your hours are numbered. Like, not in general, but literally numbered...
 
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[X]Look to Mariko to see if she wants us by her side, while asking:"Bayushi-sama?" If Mariko wants us by her side, and our Lord does not stop us, join her. Offer her support however we can.
-[X]See if you cannot further our orders while supporting Doji.
 
[X]Look to Mariko to see if she wants us by her side, while asking:"Bayushi-sama?" If Mariko wants us by her side, and our Lord does not stop us, join her. Offer her support however we can.
-[X]See if you cannot further our orders while supporting Doji.
 
[x] Look to Mariko to see if she wants us by her side, while asking:"Bayushi-sama?" If Mariko wants us by her side, and our Lord does not stop us, join her. Offer her support however we can.
-[x] See if you cannot further our orders while supporting Doji.

Errr, looks fine yes.
 
[X]Look to Mariko to see if she wants us by her side, while asking:"Bayushi-sama?" If Mariko wants us by her side, and our Lord does not stop us, join her. Offer her support however we can.
-[X]See if you cannot further our orders while supporting Doji.
 
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