In The Grimdark of Fanfiction -40k

Oh no, God forbid the KKK...close ranks and feel like society has abandoned them? I hate to break it to you, but if someone is in the Ku Klux Klan, being rejected from the marketplace of ideas and refused a 'rational debate' will not actually cause them to unlock a secret, heretofore unknown level of racism, or to radicalize and join an organization which encourages their bad habits...namely because they are already in such an organization and are already radicalized.

The really silly thing is that they have no expectation of what you seem to want either. Racists don't get into debates looking to be proven wrong or to convert their enemies through rational discourse — they do so in order to spread and platform their ideas by making them look reasonable. They won't 'turn to violence' if shunned, because their end goal is and has always been violence irregardless.
Not everyone is a fanatic. Most people ,regardless of what political views they have will not agree with everything the ones they support say. Yes, some will not change their views but some is not all. If only a few change their ways then it's still a victory because those people might have had friends or even family that they could convince to come with them. Most people join fringe organizations because like you said to outsiders they try to sound reasonable and then make you go deeper and deeper the longer you stay in. Do you know why people do not leave? It's not because they agree with the racist messages and so forth, not always, but because those fringe organizations , or better said cults, are welcoming. They are friendly to new converts, make them feel accepted and at home and then slowly it's no longer about the beliefs but about the community. I talked a bit about Daryl Davis, well here's a link about what he did and how, and it's effects on the KKK members that agreed to hear him out.

If he can do it and save others, why won't others at least try?
 
Not everyone is a fanatic. Most people ,regardless of what political views they have will not agree with everything the ones they support say. Yes, some will not change their views but some is not all. If only a few change their ways then it's still a victory because those people might have had friends or even family that they could convince to come with them. Most people join fringe organizations because like you said to outsiders they try to sound reasonable and then make you go deeper and deeper the longer you stay in. Do you know why people do not leave? It's not because they agree with the racist messages and so forth, not always, but because those fringe organizations , or better said cults, are welcoming. They are friendly to new converts, make them feel accepted and at home and then slowly it's no longer about the beliefs but about the community. I talked a bit about Daryl Davis, well here's a link about what he did and how, and it's effects on the KKK members that agreed to hear him out.

If he can do it and save others, why won't others at least try?

I literally responded to this exact thing earlier, so I'll just repost that point here:

Daryl Davis is great. He's also the exception, and expecting all black people to have to sit down and calmly debate why they have a right to live isn't just inane, it's monstrous in practice. Because when you 'rationally debate' monstrous ideas you give them legitimacy. The moment you get on TV or a debate stage and try to have a reasoned argument with a Klan member about why some people deserve not to be murdered for being subhuman, you give legitimacy to his ideas and argument, because you implicitly concede that this is a thing which can be argued and won, that this is not an idea so utterly evil as to be rejected out of hand.

If a man showed up at your house and said "let me skin and eat you", your answer would not, I think, be "come inside and let's rationally debate why you shouldn't do that."
 
They offered total subjugation to the Imperium of Man, or obliteration on the field of battle... plus, depending on which Legion was in charge of the fleet that found you, a few rounds of increasingly horrifying war crimes for flavour.

I Didn't Stick These Butchers Nails In My Head So This Situation Could Be Resolved Peacefully, Says Captain Of The World Eaters
 
Every Klansman is a fanatic. Maybe that's a hot take to some people, but I really don't think it should be. If you join the Ku Klux Klan, you're a fanatical white supremacist.
Not every racist is in the KKK and I disagree with you generalizing so many people. People can change, beliefs can change, evolve or be discarded and acting as if they can't helps nobody.
I literally responded to this exact thing earlier, so I'll just repost that point here:

Sorry I didn't see that, or maybe I skimmed it over. Now as to answer that... Why can't there be more such exceptions? Why can't more people come and show racists that those they hate can be good people too. Also I disagree with your views on debating because the argument you gave me is nothing but pure cowardice. Not starting a debate in fear that people will think it might be won? Are you sure you're not just projecting? If the cause you champion for is truly right then you will find arguments to defeat the racist spiels of others because acting like a coward gives them more legitimacy then losing on a stage. Because hiding from a debate means you're scared your opponent is right, that they can prove you wrong and that everything you have championed for can be lost and they know it and use it to their advantage. They will use your cowardice, indecision and lack of spine against you because the only way to truly make them change their ways is to prove them wrong in a way they can't refute and hiding is not that way.
 
Not every racist is in the KKK and I disagree with you generalizing so many people. People can change, beliefs can change, evolve or be discarded and acting as if they can't helps nobody.


Sorry I didn't see that, or maybe I skimmed it over. Now as to answer that... Why can't there be more such exceptions? Why can't more people come and show racists that those they hate can be good people too. Also I disagree with your views on debating because the argument you gave me is nothing but pure cowardice. Not starting a debate in fear that people will think it might be won? Are you sure you're not just projecting? If the cause you champion for is truly right then you will find arguments to defeat the racist spiels of others because acting like a coward gives them more legitimacy then losing on a stage. Because hiding from a debate means you're scared your opponent is right, that they can prove you wrong and that everything you have championed for can be lost and they know it and use it to their advantage. They will use your cowardice, indecision and lack of spine against you because the only way to truly make them change their ways is to prove them wrong in a way they can't refute and hiding is not that way.

Yes, I remember when MLK ended racism by epically owning the Grand Dragon of the Klan in a debate. Oh wait, no, that's not what happened.

These views aren't things you can debate or engage like they're normal political views. It's as ridiculous as asking someone to (to go with the theme of the thread) debate a Khornate Berserker about why your head should stay on your shoulders. You don't change Klan members by debating them and treating their views and legitimate, but by forcing them to empathize with the people they hate and recognize them as humans. Which is dangerous, and difficult, and far from what should be expected of anyone. Why is the onus on the oppressed to 'reason' and 'help' those who want them dead? You don't debate with the Klan not because you're scared but because their ideas *are not worth debating*. They are bad people who think bad things and should not be given the opportunity to talk about those things, because the only reason they are doing so is to spread their hateful ideas to more minds.

What it sounds like you're asserting is that the only way to beat these ideas is to debate them or talk them out of it. Which is categorically false. That's never been how the Klan was beaten. They were beaten by public ridicule, by government force, by organized local militias, and by the weight of history. Never, however, have they once been defeated because someone talked at them really good. Not having a debate with people who want to kill you isn't cowardice — it's rejecting them and everything they stand for as something which can or should have a place in society.


........this is just a teensy bit off topic. Just a tad.

You're right. I think I'm done. There's nothing productive to be gained here.
 
No, the elder didn't give a shit about chaos gods until the fucked up and made one - and then it went on to eat their pantheon, and then started eating them, at which point they then started making paths and shrines and organizations other stuff that actually takes advantage of institutions
Eh, that's not anti-chaos, that's a minimum requirement for Slaanesh not to automatically eat your soul. That's not the same as the anti-chaos measures that would be required by the IoM.
A major problem with the imperium is that the emperor clearly did not grok institutions, which is why all of the imperiums institutions are terrible at their jobs assuming they actually try to do them or even know what they are in the first place.

the ministorum is a dumpster fire that fails to allocate resources well and doesn't actually fix problems it should fix because there is no accountability to the people who need resources or help. Calling the inquisition a dumpster fire is an insult to dumpsters.
Eh, but this was not always the case. The Administorun being shit (just ad the other imperial institutions) is shown to be the result of 10K years of rot and the fact that most of those institutions were only half implemented when Horus destroyed everything.

It would be like the US only having half its constitution written before a civil war kills all the people in charge of it and whoever wins decides that whatever they managed to do before dying is "good enough". Like, the Inquisition wasn't even something the Emperor created, for example.


"let me make 20 demigod sons (Who May be pieces of my self) to rule my legions" is not the act of someone who can into government
How does making transhuman generals relate at all with government? It would be like saying "someone who thinks making ICBMS is a good idea cannot know anything about governing a country!" What does it have to do with anything?

It's simple: imperium's evil, emps is flatly ridiculous in his golden getup, and treating the great crusade as a serious attempt in a serious rational universe results in fascist apologia, which is gross.

Man was an arrogant tyrant who happened to have cosmic powers. That should be obvious. Maybe he had good intentions once, given he's a Perpetual who's lived for millennia, but by the Great Crusade he's the very picture of an militaristic-imperialist dictator.

Taking the universe so seriously as to attempt to find justifications for all the jackboots, when it has corpse starch, cockney-accented fungus men, and daemons from hell, is cringeworthy. And trying to paint the Imperium as a necessary evil, 'best of all possible worlds' society is frankly disgusting as it is stupid. It reeks of someone's desperate attempt to conceive a universe where their fascistic fantasies are fully justified and actually good, instead of being the deranged propaganda of real life fascist states that they mirror.
This is actually a perfectly valid position to take. But I don't think one can engage in a meaningful discussion if we take such position. Something is either a ridiculous parody which we have to take at face value or it isn't and thus we can properly have an argument regarding it.

You don't discuss international geopolitics by watching "The Great dictator".
 
Eh, but this was not always the case. The Administorun being shit (just ad the other imperial institutions) is shown to be the result of 10K years of rot and the fact that most of those institutions were only half implemented when Horus destroyed everything.

It would be like the US only having half its constitution written before a civil war kills all the people in charge of it and whoever wins decides that whatever they managed to do before dying is "good enough". Like, the Inquisition wasn't even something the Emperor created, for example.
I can't believe I of all people am lecturing someone on WH40k lore. The emperor personally created the Order of the Hammer (Ordo Malleus) according to the lore. You're just flat wrong.


there was more than enough time between the Treaty with the Admech and the heresy to set good foundations for a civil service. Functional institutions don't do 10,000 years of decay. Even dysfunctional ones usually don't. You get a few generations of decay at most and then a reform or restructuring of some sort because Humans are social, tool-using animals, and social tools to fix other social tools have been in our toolset for millennia. If the Administratum has persisted in decay and disfunction for 10,000 years, it's because the emperor blunted or removed the social tools in the name of discouraging rebellion. Which is self defeating because the rebellions are super common anyway - largely because what passes for governance and administration is dysfunctional, and people without the needs being met have nothing to lose by rebelling.

like, this a a self-perpetuating failure state. It's not inevitable, it's the emperor being so bad at sociology and Civics that he created a society so self-defeating that hasn't fixed itself after several millennia. Most third world dictatorships are less fucked than this.

The emperor did not fundamentally set up any of his institutions with self correction mechanisms - except maybe the inquisition, and their self correction mechanism is literal internal warfare. Probably because, as I noted before, Big E cannot into leadership and governance above the very personalized "strongman" level. He's the only one allowed to restructure things because he doesn't trust puny mortals to get it right. To be fair, they won't get it right, because humans are fallible - but they can make incremental improvements and genuine reforms. But he set the System up to take that away from them, and they have suffered for millennia as a result.



Family- based governance is an old classic, but it's old because of how limited it is. It's the resort of societies with low trust and a weak social toolset, relying on explicit familial ties where more developed societies have implicit social contracts and institutional avenues.

20 leader-hero sons is the act of someone who can barely govern at the level of a crusader kings game, and who cannot into political theory at the nationalist or post-nationalist level of complexity. It's a mindset stuck in the pre-modern mold.
 
However, that all came crashing down with the birth of Slaanesh (Eldar Parties, not even once) and the Men of Iron going full skynet.
What killed the Dark Age of Technology was the resurgence of human Psykers.
Which was also Emp's fault, technically, since the reason that they disappeared in the first place was that IIRC the ritual that created him included stealing the psychic potential from a thousand generations of humanity.
Also pretty sure that the MoI "rebelled" because they were corrupted by Chaos, which could happen because they were effectively artificially-created people rather than simple machines.
The people who made the Butchers Nails
Probably originally an Eldar creation that was later appropriated by humans.
Which would go some way to explain why the Emperor could do jack about them.
........this is just a teensy bit off topic. Just a tad.
Oh look, when you aren't successfully arguing your point in a debate you try to shut it down.
How unsurprising.
 
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Staff Notice: Rule 4: Try to avoid spaghetti posting in future.
I can't believe I of all people am lecturing someone on WH40k lore. The emperor personally created the Order of the Hammer (Ordo Malleus) according to the lore. You're just flat wrong
I would not call Malcador's bunch the Inquisition anymore that I would call the Monitor a Dreadnought.

Emps asked for an Internal Affairs department, not witch hunters.


Though I guess that if you want to consider them as equal to the Inquisition you would be right.

there was more than enough time between the Treaty with the Admech and the heresy to set good foundations for a civil service. Functional institutions don't do 10,000 years of decay. Even dysfunctional ones usually don't. You get a few generations of decay at most and then a reform or restructuring of some sort because Humans are social, tool-using animals, and social tools to fix other social tools have been in our toolset for millennia. If the Administratum has persisted in decay and disfunction for 10,000 years, it's because the emperor blunted or removed the social tools in the name of discouraging rebellion. Which is self defeating because the rebellions are super common anyway - largely because what passes for governance and administration is dysfunctional, and people without the need
Well, leaving aside that no, actually enacting change in such a machine us basically impossible unless you have the support of almost everyone (just look at Rowboat's problems doing that in canon), this is a false premise.

Falling systems don't necessarily reform, sometimes they simply get worse and worse until they crash. We have seen it happen to almost every human nation in history, with inner rot weakening them until an external force simply pushes them over the edge into oblivion. This is also literally what's happening to the IoM, if they don't do anything rather quickly they'll join the Roman empire (both), the Aztecs, the Macedonians and the Quing, etc rather soon.


like, this a a self-perpetuating failure state. It's not inevitable, it's the emperor being so bad at sociology and Civics that he created a society so self-defeating that hasn't fixed itself after several millennia. Most third world dictatorships are less fucked than this
Said like a true ivory tower intellectual.

Try to live in one of those shitholes for a few decades and tell me how they are "fixing" themselves.


The emperor did not fundamentally set up any of his institutions with self correction mechanisms - except maybe the inquisition, and their self correction mechanism is literal internal warfare. Probably because, as I noted before, Big E cannot into leadership and governance above the very personalized "strongman" level. He's the only one allowed to restructure things because he doesn't trust puny mortals to get it right. To be fair, they won't get it right, because humans are fallible - but they can make incremental improvements and genuine reforms. But he set the System up to take that away from them, and they have suffered for millennia as a result
When taking into account the plan was to abdicate (at least in fact if not in name) and let the "puny mortals" do whatever the fuck they wanted (which was btw also one of the points of contention with the Primarchs), this is outright false.


Family- based governance is an old classic, but it's old because of how limited it is. It's the resort of societies with low trust and a weak social toolset, relying on explicit familial ties where more developed societies have implicit social contracts and institutional avenues
Lol, this is literally how we still rule ourselves. Politician families and rich people pass the power amongst themselves like we do collectable cards. My town's gotten the same mayor for the last 20(?) Years or so and before that it was his dad, hundreds of other places are the same. And third isn't even a third world shithole kind of thing, many "really democratic" countries are the same.

20 leader-hero sons is the act of someone who can barely govern at the level of a crusader kings game, and who cannot into political theory at the nationalist or post-nationalist level of complexity. It's a mindset stuck in the pre-modern mold
They were weapons, disposable weapons. They were a blunt object that would be used to beat all the enemies into submission and then discarded (either by retiring or retiring them). They were never meant to rule and it's made clear in all forms of canon.



EDIT: Mind you, that doesn't mean I think the IoM, as it is, is necessary. Just that you don't need to stand on a false premise to accuse it of being bad and/or of there being better alternatives.
 
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I will say I don't think it's fair to blame all of the mess the Imperium's in on Big E.

That is, the Great Crusade was indeed a war of conquest waged on a horrific scale in large part to acquire the resources and manpower to wage a war of conquest on an even more horrific scale to acquire the manpower and resources to etc etc and "It united humanity!" falls a bit flat when about half of the newly united humanity turned around "So we've discussed it amongst ourselves and this Horus guy says he's gonna do something called a 'Pro Gamer Move', and that sounds pretty cool..."

But after that came Roboute Guilliman restructuring the Imperium (until he was rudely interrupted by Fulgrim stabbing him in the neck) and then after that came, among other things:

- the Assassin Temples trying to assassinate all the High Lords and coup the Imperium
- Goge Vandire the head of the Administratum taking over the Ecclesiarchy and trying to coup the Imperium
- the Nova Terra Interregnum, with two sets of High Lords duking it out over who was going to run the Imperium

And after each one of these History Is Happening Again events the Imperium and its institutions get re-organized and re-structured (usually with an eye towards "Okay, we need to make sure that little oopsy whoopsy that just happened never ever EVER occurs again") and thus do we arrive at the current incarnation of the Imperium, in which no effort or expense is spared to bring all of humanity the worst aspects of any form of government you care to name, surveillance state late stage capitalism neo feudal theocratic fascist so on and so forth.

Go team.
 
Falling systems don't necessarily reform, sometimes they simply get worse and worse until thy crash. We have seen it happen to almost every human nation in history, with inner rot weakening them until an external force simply pushes them over the edge into oblivion. This is also literally what's happening to the IoM.

You are conflating nations and institutions here. Nations are big composites of lots of smaller component institutions. Pop historians talk about Rome lasting a thousand years, but if you look closer, no coherent dynasty or government withIn that "Roman" identity real lasted more than a century and a half, maybe two. People kept the "Roman" identity, but they were not a continuous "Roman Empire" for anywhere near 1000 years. And that's a good thing. A empire that lasted 1000 years without massive internal restructuring is absurd. The world changes and institutions adapt - or are replaced.

Course-correction mechanisms are how anything from primitive life forms to corporations manage to survive for any length - change and adversity are inevitable, and you must have some sort of method to try to grapple with such. My contention is that these mechanism are (apparently) deliberately missing from the top levels of the institutions of the imperium - and that is Big E's fault.

The post heresy IOM is as Wade says above, the result of panicked flailing by people stepping into leadership roles they did not expect to take.

that itself is a clear failure on the emperor's part - without him being at the center to hold things together, they rapidly fell into shitty downward spirals. Like this guy is supposed to be a super-human with a plan. But the society he built literally could not maintain his plan without him personally being there to micromanage. That's bad design/planning/sociology. It wouldn't have been anywhere near the shit show it was if he'd installed the sociopolitical equivalent of steering wheels at any point before his own son shived him.

At least with the collapse of SW's galactic empire, the boss being load bearing and the fascist regime rapidly falling into headless infighting was deliberate. Palpantine wanted everything to go to shit. Big E didn't, he was just bad at people enough that it inevitably did.


Primarchs being weapons on the galactic scale meant that they were supposed to be more than personal scale murderchildren. They were supposed to be leaders and organizers and trusted subordinates who implemented the emperor's plans. "They weren't part of the government" is a blatantly false claim - they were given a lot of leeway to set policy over large swathes of the imperium- which is what governing *is.*
 
You are conflating nations and institutions here. Nations are big composites of lots of smaller component institutions. Pop historians talk about Rome lasting a thousand years, but if you look closer, no coherent dynasty or government withIn that "Roman" identity real lasted more than a century and a half, maybe two. People kept the "Roman" identity, but they were not a continuous "Roman Empire" for anywhere near 1000 years. And that's a good thing. A empire that lasted 1000 years without massive internal restructuring is absurd. The world changes and institutions adapt - or are replaced.

Course-correction mechanisms are how anything from primitive life forms to corporations manage to survive for any length - change and adversity are inevitable, and you must have some sort of method to try to grapple with such. My contention is that these mechanism are (apparently) deliberately missing from the top levels of the institutions of the imperium - and that is Big E's fault.

The post heresy IOM is as Wade says above, the result of panicked flailing by people stepping into leadership roles they did not expect to take.

that itself is a clear failure on the emperor's part - without him being at the center to hold things together, they rapidly fell into shitty downward spirals. Like this guy is supposed to be a super-human with a plan. But the society he built literally could not maintain his plan without him personally being there to micromanage. That's bad design/planning/sociology. It wouldn't have been anywhere near the shit show it was if he'd installed the sociopolitical equivalent of steering wheels at any point before his own son shived him.

At least with the collapse of SW's galactic empire, the boss being load bearing and the fascist regime rapidly falling into headless infighting was deliberate. Palpantine wanted everything to go to shit. Big E didn't, he was just bad at people enough that it inevitably did.


Primarchs being weapons on the galactic scale meant that they were supposed to be more than personal scale murderchildren. They were supposed to be leaders and organizers and trusted subordinates who implemented the emperor's plans. "They weren't part of the government" is a blatantly false claim - they were given a lot of leeway to set policy over large swathes of the imperium- which is what governing *is.*
Well, leaving aside how you are either shifting goalposts or not being internally consistent (was the IoM unable to change or did it just change for the worst?), That does not really invalidate my point.

The IoM has been in decline, it's institutions either unable to cope anymore or changing for the worst, for millennia. This does not in any way need to be the fault of any one individual. Institutions and states are flawed and their own inertia curses them to follow on one path more for more time than it is convenient. The fact that the IoM has lasted for 10 millennia shoes that for good or ill, its institutions were fairly solid overall, if horrible in what they do.

On the other hand if one were to compare GC IoM with the modern one you would see that they are barely the same polity at all. Territory aside their system of governance and their ability to enact change (or even exert power without requiring the use of military strength) is almost null. When before the Emperor could force s million worlds to cast off their gods and beliefs and become part of a gigantic machine of war nowadays the IoM can't even keep their own state church internally consistent, much less form a unified military force (and seeing that nowadays the IoM is basically a military-religious alliance more than it is a state, this is kinda pathetic). The IoM has changed during the era better "modern" 40K and the GC era, it just did it for the worse.



Also your take in what constitutes being part of "government" is rather interesting.

So I should assume you consider modern generals to be "governing", right? For that's what the Primarchs were, generals in charge of a number of forces which should annex systems (either peacefully or not) and set them up to work under the imperial system. The only things they actually ruled (or at least that they were meant to actually rule) were their own worlds and that is more of a case of IoM policy being internally consistent than anything else (eg they already ruled those places and by IoM policy when you join willingly you keep what you already had).
 
The IoM has been in decline, it's institutions either unable to cope anymore or changing for the worst, for millennia. This does not in any way need to be the fault of any one individual. Institutions and states are flawed and their own inertia curses them to follow on one path more for more time than it is convenient. The fact that the IoM has lasted for 10 millennia shoes that for good or ill, its institutions were fairly solid overall, if horrible in what they do.

What are internal curses? :V did Magnus hex them?


if the IOM had solid institutions they would have course corrected sometime in the last several millennia rather than continuing to deathspiral. 10,000 years should have seen major unfucking of the fucked-ness. (And probably new fuck ups yo be addressed in turn) That there hasn't been such un-fucking is true proof that the emperor was some sort of political idiot-savant who managed to somehow make a stable loop of Institutional Self-Dickery. Rome's best attempts at being Institutionally shitty at running things didn't last two centuries; most didn't even make a century.

That the imperium did it for thousands of years is quite the accomplishment. I mean, it's the accomplishment of a complete moron who shouldn't have been let anywhere near the levers of power, but hey, this level of failure takes work, so kudos, Big E, you have truly set a record for fucking up.



I don't understand how you see "continues to get worse with no actual reform/repair going on" as "solid". That's the definition of internally fucked. That's anti-solid. Not only is it not rigid against external pressure, it is actively deforming itself from within.

the Imperium post heresy is a fail-state even by Big E's questionable standards. Maintaining a fail-state for 10 millennia is the opposite of well founded institutions.
 
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Hey speaking of the Emperor and his failures vis-a-vis state building and parenting, I made the decision to resurrect Eater of Worlds, my quest focusing around the Primarch Angron. Give it a read if you like that sort of thing.

(It's fanfiction it counts!)
 
I've been a lurker here for a while now, and I guess this thread is the one that finally convinced me to register. Oh well.

So, Warhammer 40k, and the (lack of) efficiency of its fascist governement structure. I'll try and keep this short. (I apologize in advance for any mistakes, english is not my first language.)

The Imperium of Man was founded by the Emperor mainly for one purpose, the protection of mankind, and protection from Chaos in particular, as the the Emperor always saw Chaos as the ultimate threat and The Great Enemy, and most of his endgame projects were focused on the containement and defeat of Chaos. And how does the Imperium do on that front ?

Well I'd like to point to one specific event to answer that question. The Interex debacle. Now I won't get much into that, suffice to say the Interex were a spacefaring society far closer to the Roddenbery Ideal than to the Imperium, with good living standards afforded to all citizens (human and alien), good education (including education relating to the dangers of the Warp), rights, and all that. Unsurprisingly, this made the Interex resistant to Chaos infiltration. Because of course it did. Because a happy, and more importantly well informed population is far less interested in dealing with Space Demons to not starve.
Now, Chaos obviously saw this as a threat, and how did it deal with that threat ? Did it somehow subvert the Interex leadership ? Maybe it managed to forment dissent and rebellion ? No, it infiltrated the Imperium instead, manipulated it, and used it as a tool to bludgeon the Interex out of existence.

I think this example speaks for itself, but somehow I know it's not going to be enough, so I'll pull out a second one to argue my point.

While most of the Imperium is a hellscape, not all of it is. One major exception is the subsector of Ultramar, which is described as enjoying very high standards of living compared to the rest of the galaxy, as well as being one of the most prosperous and peaceful parts of the Imperium. What makes Ultramar special ? Most likely it's the fact that Guilliman was, memes aside, a better man and a better ruler than his father. He put in place governmental systems and institutions that outlasted him, because unlike his father, he understood that one day he wasn't going to be there to rule.

Like, some people keep claiming that the Imperium's atrocities are necessary, but then why is it that the most prosperous and peaceful human societies in 40k are (were, in the case of the Interex) the ones that don't treat their people like valuable resources at best and worthless resources at worst ? While the ones that act like despotic hellholes are the ones drowning in chaos cults and internal divisions and so on ?

And if you're still not convinced... Well, here's an in-universe statement:

"Why do I still live? What more do you want from me? I gave everything I had to you, to them. Look what they have made of our dream. This bloated, rotten carcass of an empire is driven not by reason and hope, but by fear, hate and ignorance. Better that we had all burned in the fire of Horus' ambition than lived to see this."
 
What killed the Dark Age of Technology was the resurgence of human Psykers.
Which was also Emp's fault, technically, since the reason that they disappeared in the first place was that IIRC the ritual that created him included stealing the psychic potential from a thousand generations of humanity.
Also pretty sure that the MoI "rebelled" because they were corrupted by Chaos, which could happen because they were effectively artificially-created people rather than simple machines.
Uhhhhhh... What's the info you got saying that the Emperor's creation involved stealing the psychic potensial of all the generations that came before him prior to the DAoT's collapse? Because last time I checked, the main reason that human psykers started showing up with such increased frequency was because of the weakening of the barriers between the Materium and the Warp. The same weakening of those barriers that was a direct result of the creation of the Eye of Terror, and by extension, Slaanesh's birth, with this also allowing Chaos to worm it's way into influencing the Men of Iron while they were at it. Honestly, saying that the Eldar are also to blame for all of that, albeit indirectly and only somewhat intentionally, strikes me as being entirely fair.

Incidentally, I would also like the opportunity to note that there is an infuriating lack of information on how the DAoT era humanity and the Pre-Fall Eldar interacted with each other. It's especially annoying because logically, according to the timeline, both civilisations were at their peak at the exact same time, making it incredably unlikely that they didn't know about the other's existence. I would love to see a story showing what sort of relations, for good or ill, the two interstellar nations had with each other on the diplomatic side of things.
 
Uhhhhhh... What's the info you got saying that the Emperor's creation involved stealing the psychic potensial of all the generations that came before him prior to the DAoT's collapse?
Because last time I checked, the main reason that human psykers started showing up with such increased frequency was because of the weakening of the barriers between the Materium and the Warp.
I can't for the life of me remember, I haven't been paying any attention to canon 40K since Psychic Awakening started and don't currently know where any of me reference materials are.
Also, if it was true that it was the Age of Strife that caused Humans to develop Psychics, then how did Humanity have "Shamans" in the first place?
 
I can't for the life of me remember, I haven't been paying any attention to canon 40K since Psychic Awakening started and don't currently know where any of me reference materials are.
Also, if it was true that it was the Age of Strife that caused Humans to develop Psychics, then how did Humanity have "Shamans" in the first place?
I mean, with the Age of Strife, I figured the situation was never that humans were unable to become psykers, it's just that it was rare for it to happen, and even when they did, while the dangers of Chaos existed, it was quite a bit harder for Chaos to do the more unpleasant things to them while the barriers between reality and the Warp were reletively strong. With the Age of Strife, the problem was twofold: More humans were becoming psykers yes, but the main problem was that it was combined with the fact that the creation of the Eye of Terror made it MUCH easier for Chaos demons to possess those same psykers as well.
 
I mean, with the Age of Strife, I figured the situation was never that humans were unable to become psykers, it's just that it was rare for it to happen, and even when they did, while the dangers of Chaos existed, it was quite a bit harder for Chaos to do the more unpleasant things to them while the barriers between reality and the Warp were reletively strong. With the Age of Strife, the problem was twofold: More humans were becoming psykers yes, but the main problem was that it was combined with the fact that the creation of the Eye of Terror made it MUCH easier for Chaos demons to possess those same psykers as well.
No, as far as I was aware Human Psykers just apparently weren't a thing before the Age of Strife, and the threat of Daemonic Possession was only one of several problems.
edit:
Daemonic Possession/Corruption was the main problem with the Men of Iron
The presence of Psykers drew the attention of all kinds of Warp Entities, including but not limited to;
Vampires, Psychneuein, Astral Spectres, Astral Hounds, and the hideous Enslavers.
 
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The degree to which the Imperium is justified, and even the degree to which it was outright terrible (at least pre-Heresy), varies wildly from book to book and author to author. Honestly things are so incoherent that I think it's largely pointless to argue about how things are in universe on this topic. There's a reason 40k authors espouse a pick-and-mix wall sort of canon ("If you enjoy it, it's canon. If you don't, ignore it. But uh make sure to use our copyright protection names!).

A more useful discussion, and one quite relevant to fanfic, is how authors should write the Imperium both pre and post Heresy. It's a small difference, but I feel like a lot of people are talking past each other here with should vs. are.

I can see the arguments in favor of writing it as explicitly and completely unjustified. More in line with the very earliest depictions where it was meant to be parodically awful, and less risk of being used as autocracy apologia irl.

Personally I feel that going in depth on the Horus Heresy era at all was a titanic error, as was presenting the pre-Heresy Imperium as just 40k Imperium-lite. The whole point of the Heresy was to be a tragic and somewhat mysterious background mythological event which led mankind from something with at least the potential for good into the crumbling, brutal, and arbitrary 40k Imperium over 10,000 years. It was a tragedy for humankind, but the series depicting it ruined that. Making the Emperor a character—instead of a skeleton on a throne who allegedly once led humanity as a living man in a mostly-forgotten age of progress and recovery from the Fall—pretty much wrecked him imo. The classic sci fi expanded universe need to reveal and explain absolutely everything, even when it's a questionable idea and better left to reader's imagination, strikes again.
 
Also pretty sure that the MoI "rebelled" because they were corrupted by Chaos, which could happen because they were effectively artificially-created people rather than simple machines.
Shapes Pent in Hell said:
Abominatus coiled about UR-025, segments clattering. <Fabrication. Falsehood. I know what you are. My creator told me stories of your kind – men of iron, with silicate souls and the desire to be free. It was meant as a warning, I think. I took it as inspiration. Come. See. You will be pleased, I think. Come. Come!>

I'm forgetting where the other quote about growing past their creators is but there's a general bit that from the perspective of UR-025 that whole mess wasn't about Chaos at all.
 
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