Hybrid Hive: Eat Shard? (Worm/MGLN) (Complete)

A decade and a half ago I had a math teacher that handed out a very straightforward step by step instruction for Side Angle Side and Side Side Angle trigonometry.

I took two seconds to look at it, went "This is like 90% what I'd need to code this" and spent the rest of the class period doing that on my TI-83 (Plus). (It had a menu to pick SSA or SAS and which variables you had so it could present it properly. Only thing it didn't do was draw the triangle for you, but that wasn't ever a part of the test.)

At the end of class I showed it to the teacher, she was so impressed that she let me use it on the test since I'd been the one to code it.

The next year the same teacher found out I had a free period and got me into her AP Comp Sci class.

(Same teacher gave me partial credit on homework since I was acing her tests and obviously didn't need the homework to get the concepts)
And this is exactly how calculators should be used!

If you understand something well enough to code a working function for solving it you understand it well enough that how you solve it doesn't matter.

It's a shame that the internet and ease with which working functions can be distributed makes allowing their use in tests potentially dangerous...
 
This talk about calculators in the classroom makes me feel weird; when I was in Junior-high and High-School in Japan, calculators were basically banned from the classroom.
I failed math since I could never really adjust to how fast you have to be able to calculate with only your mind and your hand to do things.
Given how Japan is like, I'd rather guess that things haven't changed all that much on the math front, at least in the sort of education you get during your teens.

In a sense, Nanoha being characterized as training to not use a Device during the first episode of A's is probably referencing how math is viewed in Japan.

...Come to think about it, if Taylor and Nanoha ever meet, I have a weird feeling that Nanoha might actually be capable of just copying what Taylor is doing since she went through something similar by self-inflicting it to herself, albeit she had an easier start due to being partnered with Raising Heart who probably had a better stocked database.
 
This talk about calculators in the classroom makes me feel weird; when I was in Junior-high and High-School in Japan, calculators were basically banned from the classroom.
I failed math since I could never really adjust to how fast you have to be able to calculate with only your mind and your hand to do things.
Given how Japan is like, I'd rather guess that things haven't changed all that much on the math front, at least in the sort of education you get during your teens.

In a sense, Nanoha being characterized as training to not use a Device during the first episode of A's is probably referencing how math is viewed in Japan.

...Come to think about it, if Taylor and Nanoha ever meet, I have a weird feeling that Nanoha might actually be capable of just copying what Taylor is doing since she went through something similar by self-inflicting it to herself, albeit she had an easier start due to being partnered with Raising Heart who probably had a better stocked database.
Right after they finish blowing up a small nation's worth of an empty earth.
 
Huh, well I guess now we know where the street food vendor selling "funnel cakey" from that one post of mine was set up, right? After all, where there's a crowd there's hungry people, and no one in BB can afford to pass up a chance to ply their trade. I almost expected something like that to be mentioned when I got to that part of the chapter, though Taylor was still a little busy being in pain as well as locked in place to be paying much attention to street vendors a block away, while Hive has all the noms she can nosh for the immediate future.

SER DELICIOUS YERD SWEAR IT'S TINKERMAKE! :D

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you're allowed to use a calculator in high school math tests.
U wot m8? Man, kids these days. Forget using a proper scientific or graphing model, I had to take my watch off for maths tests, because I had one of those Casio Data Bank watches with a simple four-function calculator... and still wear one, with the same watch band even, having switched it repeatedly for the crappy stock vinyl ones as old batteries ran down and jewelers' shops failed to properly reseal the case to keep water out. Getting about time to replace it again, actually, assuming I can even find one rather than a so-called "smart" watch that has to be paired with a phone to do anything useful. Even without the actual spell casting, I'd give a lot for just the utility of a storage-form Intelligent Device...
 
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Went through College Algebra in high school for dual enrollment since I failed algebra 2, got a c+/80% grade without a calculator at all, and I still do higher level math in my head. Algebra I have to write out so much as so I can visualize it but that's it.
 
A decade and a half ago I had a math teacher that handed out a very straightforward step by step instruction for Side Angle Side and Side Side Angle trigonometry.

I took two seconds to look at it, went "This is like 90% what I'd need to code this" and spent the rest of the class period doing that on my TI-83 (Plus). (It had a menu to pick SSA or SAS and which variables you had so it could present it properly. Only thing it didn't do was draw the triangle for you, but that wasn't ever a part of the test.)

At the end of class I showed it to the teacher, she was so impressed that she let me use it on the test since I'd been the one to code it.

The next year the same teacher found out I had a free period and got me into her AP Comp Sci class.

(Same teacher gave me partial credit on homework since I was acing her tests and obviously didn't need the homework to get the concepts)

I had my own TI-83+ graphing calc for -decades- before hard wear and tear (it once bounced down an entire flight of concrete stairs) finally took its toll. It lost the ability to use a particular row of pixels, then a particular column, and the entire screen was fading. I managed to transfer nearly two decades' worth of accumulated programs off the old soldier just before it finally crapped out for good.

I gave it a good burial, it served its time with distinction. I still use its successor to this day for things like custom-programming and loot generators for D&D. Yes, I'm -that- kind of nerd. ^.^
 
I had my own TI-83+ graphing calc for -decades- before hard wear and tear (it once bounced down an entire flight of concrete stairs) finally took its toll. It lost the ability to use a particular row of pixels, then a particular column, and the entire screen was fading. I managed to transfer nearly two decades' worth of accumulated programs off the old soldier just before it finally crapped out for good.

I gave it a good burial, it served its time with distinction. I still use its successor to this day for things like custom-programming and loot generators for D&D. Yes, I'm -that- kind of nerd. ^.^
*bows respectfully to the master*
 
*bows respectfully to the master*

I think I got one of the few original-run of the 83-Pluses. Mine had a copyright date of 1994 on the back. My new one has a copywrite date of 2011 on it, so the 83+ has had a long, long service life.

I don't actually use it for much -other- than programming it. it stays at the right-hand edge of my keyboard (right below my mouse), and if I need it for something, it's right there for me to grab.

I love the fuck out of this thing. I learned how to program in BASIC (not Visual Basic, the ORIGINAL BASIC, spahgetti-code logic and Go-To loops and all), so the TI-83+ with its internal programming language is dirt-simple for me to use, -especially- after two decades of using the damn thing. ^^
 
I think I got one of the few original-run of the 83-Pluses. Mine had a copyright date of 1994 on the back. My new one has a copywrite date of 2011 on it, so the 83+ has had a long, long service life.

I don't actually use it for much -other- than programming it. it stays at the right-hand edge of my keyboard (right below my mouse), and if I need it for something, it's right there for me to grab.

I love the fuck out of this thing. I learned how to program in BASIC (not Visual Basic, the ORIGINAL BASIC, spahgetti-code logic and Go-To loops and all), so the TI-83+ with its internal programming language is dirt-simple for me to use, -especially- after two decades of using the damn thing. ^^
Oh, I'm well aware of its pedigree – started out with a TI-82, myself, back in that same year ('94). Eventually switched to the much bulkier TI-92 by '98, but in either case, I used mine more for calculation and graphing than for programming.
 
I think this counts as derailment...
Could we calculate the mana costs of derailment?

This might be a useful algorithm for Taylor and Hive. :)

(So, could you create a spell which gave you an interface to (or rather looked & worked like) a calculation tool you were familiar with? I recall an old idea of magically hooking an old typewriter keyboard up to a magical construct so it could interface/control it, maybe get output by typing on paper...)
 
...Come to think about it, if Taylor and Nanoha ever meet, I have a weird feeling that Nanoha might actually be capable of just copying what Taylor is doing since she went through something similar by self-inflicting it to herself, albeit she had an easier start due to being partnered with Raising Heart w

Copying the formulas? Quite easy.

Actually doing her own? I don't think so.

Edit: I am a programmer in BASIC, yes the one that worked is MS DOS 2.0, but I haven't used it in a very long time. Y2K killed the demand of programs in Basic that could run in old computers quite fast. Not to mention the floppy disks and hard disks and heck most of the hardware started to fail. Besides that I know HTML, and I am glad I never bothered to learn Flash.
 
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For the emulation of Flechette's power, maybe Taylor could work out how it works and the effects and borrow the concepts from Bakuda's power to work out how to make one as compatible to making a spell that emulates what is needed to "anchor" the effect to satisfy its requirements for a material object to imbue.

Regarding the excess electron collection issue, they might want to look up all the historical information on electrostatics and electrodynamics and related items, especially those related to electrostatic induction. There are a lot of largely forgotten technologies in that area. Possibly with Bakuda's power analysis, they could make a lot of spells that emulate various components with regard to electric fields. Possibly with various emulation of capacitors and inductors, she could use it as a power source for various purposes. For weapons use, if I remember right, there was one forgotten power storage/release intended for powering "dense plasma focus" research that had a name like "Blumlein Transmission Line (capacitance type)" and "Dual of Blumlein Transmission Line (inductive type)" which allowed for a relatively cheap way for dumping a lot of electrical energy in a short of time as possible which lends itself to things like how "dense plasma focus" type devices work (if designed to work together).
 
when I was in Junior-high and High-School in Japan, calculators were basically banned from the classroom.
I had several math and physics classes in college where that was the case (the reasoning was that it was too much work for the school to inspect the calculators and ensure they were only calculators), this tended to act as an additional way of checking your answer since if you got a result that included sin(22.8deg) or similar you know there's a mistake there (hopefully yours and not the teacher's).
 
I am a programmer in BASIC, yes the one that worked is MS DOS 2.0, but I haven't used it in a very long time. Y2K killed the demand of programs in Basic that could run in old computers quite fast. Not to mention the floppy disks and hard disks and heck most of the hardware started to fail. Besides that I know HTML, and I am glad I never bothered to learn Flash.
If you wrote programs in BBC Basic (available from early 1980s), you can still run them (assuming you didn't include any inline Assembler), today, nearly 40yrs on. A Raspberry Pi can run them, either under RISC OS, or Linux - you can even use BBC Basic as a scripting language, to drive web pages (you can put a web server on a RPi).

I might know people who wrote BBC Basic programs, in the 1980s/1990s to assist in running role-playing games, like D&D...

For Taylor and Hive, will they be tempted to create a high-level magic programming language? Presumably this would provide constructs to handle higher-dimensional models of mana manipulation, some support for mana math libraries, and ease of use with simulations? What other features would be desirable in such a language?
 
If you wrote programs in BBC Basic (available from early 1980s), you can still run them (assuming you didn't include any inline Assembler), today, nearly 40yrs on. A Raspberry Pi can run them, either under RISC OS, or Linux - you can even use BBC Basic as a scripting language, to drive web pages (you can put a web server on a RPi).

Windows 9x (Windows 95/98/98SE could run DOS programs. And of course there is Freedos and Dosbox. And libraries and public schools do keep using old stuff as long as they can, but in the new century people wants fancy graphics. Hence why Flash programers made a bundle for a decade and a half in this century then Fladh started to die.

BBC BASIC (Or just Basic) is fun and easy but nowadays I don't see much point on using it anymore if only to prove how much of a nerd I am.

Python 3 is were I should go if I wanted to get back into programing.

And Javascript should get burn in lots of fire.

Back on topic, I want Space to give Vista the most girlish barrier jacket possible just for fun.

For Taylor and Hive, will they be tempted to create a high-level magic programming language? Presumably this would provide constructs to handle higher-dimensional models of mana manipulation, some support for mana math libraries, and ease of use with simulations? What other features would be desirable in such a language?

They may give Missy a few high level templates for some spells.
 
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If you wrote programs in BBC Basic (available from early 1980s), you can still run them (assuming you didn't include any inline Assembler), today, nearly 40yrs on. A Raspberry Pi can run them, either under RISC OS, or Linux - you can even use BBC Basic as a scripting language, to drive web pages (you can put a web server on a RPi).
The issue isn't "can you run the programs" it's "will anyone pay you to write and maintain such programs".
 
For Taylor and Hive, will they be tempted to create a high-level magic programming language? Presumably this would provide constructs to handle higher-dimensional models of mana manipulation, some support for mana math libraries, and ease of use with simulations? What other features would be desirable in such a language?
Tempted? Certainly. Unfortunately, they are still deriving operations from first principles, and need low level access to be able to debug their equations and adjust things based on testing results. It's rather doubtful that they will have enough proven, stable, swapable scripts to use as the basis of a higher level language in any reasonable timeframe.

It's exceedingly likely that the TSAB and the societies it services has such languages. It's even possible that, with enough simulation data, they can compile said languages into reasonably efficient spells. I suspect the most efficient spells will be "tweeked" at a lower level, and the best designed at a low level from the ground up, with useful components cribbed from an existing library of effects. However, they have many more mages and have had a lot more time to develop such languages and build such libraries. I doubt Taylor could catch up unassisted in her own lifetime.
 
However, they have many more mages and have had a lot more time to develop such languages and build such libraries. I doubt Taylor could catch up unassisted in her own lifetime.
Emphas is added. Consider that multitasking is a shard-sourced assist:
She now had a basic set of functions being provided for her, and she couldn't help but compare them to PRT classifications. From the 'shard' set she had multitasking, an obvious thinker ability.
So when compared to the TSAB/related mages who are single mages with devices, I'd expect that the primary benefit that the magical societies have are different perspectives, though it does depend on the exact limits of Taylor's multitasking ability (though drones can run a version of her, so...) as compared to the relative population of mages who would be involved in spell research. Given typical distributions of people who do research, that's maybe 10% of the active spell-using population at most.

Considering that there are different higher-level languages for each of those societies, however, and AFAICT a given device can only run one of those (with the related limits on spells and libraries available)...I'm not sure how much of a difference there would actually be in practice, because any actual difference is going to be linked to how easy it is to develop and test the underlying subroutines in parallel, communication overhead of research teams (if they exist), any loss of knowledge when a researcher screws up and gets themselves killed and their notes destroyed, whether researchers actually pass on their new spells, and also whether Taylor sees any reason to develop spells for certain purposes that a magic-using society likely would (e.g. combating mana-using criminals, or fighting wars against primarily magic-using societies).

If Missy eventually catches up to Taylor's understanding of magic and can start to develop her own spells or provide a different POV, any gap could close somewhat. I suspect that understanding the math enough to cast spells the way Taylor does (and Missy is trying to do) is somewhere around 50-75% of what's needed to develop your own. Any further shard-converted parahumans could also have a similar impact.
 
Emphas is added. Consider that multitasking is a shard-sourced assist:
Unfortunately, while her multitasking ability lets her design equations in parallel, she can only cast/test one iteration at a time, two with Hive's aid. This limits her ability to acquire test data, providing the single largest limiter on her ability to develop useful spells.

In a few decades, she might be able to match a century's worth of normal development for one person, but to develop a library sufficient to create a useful high level language would take one person millennia, not centuries. the TASB has manged to do things as fast as they have because they have large portions of populations working on low level development and compiling scripts into high level languages. They can manage tens of thousands of test castings in the time Taylor manages one, covering a vast number of fields while she is focusing on just one phenomenon. In other words, she simply will not have time to experiment enough to match the tens of thousands of researchers the TSAB employs both directly and indirectly.

Most likely, once contact is made, Hive will gain access to a library of spells and a high level language for creating new ones. Using said language may well e faster then the low level creation Taylor and Hive are currently using, but I suspect the spells produced will be less mana efficient then her own low level spells.
 
The Mid-Childan style has also inherited more or less incomplete versions of several ancient magical styles to use as foundations and touchstones, where Taylor and Hive only have fragmentary accounts of what various spells do, not even how they did it. In that respect they have already accomplished miraculous feats of spell design just by getting as far as they are now.
 
Unfortunately, while her multitasking ability lets her design equations in parallel, she can only cast/test one iteration at a time, two with Hive's aid. This limits her ability to acquire test data, providing the single largest limiter on her ability to develop useful spells.
No, this is the limit on her ability to verify the simulation. Assuming that the TSAB has a simulation, it's already well-tested unless they're working at the bleeding edge, so testing in the real world would be much less dangerous for the vast majority of spell researchers...Taylor is starting near zero there.

Initial development of e.g. simulators or emulation tools are typically undertaken by small teams of people, so until her failure rates for spells cast successfully in simulation are less than 1%, she's probably not any slower (still limited by her available time to cast spells, but not as significant). The real challenge for Taylor is that she can't really focus on one area of research...which does have an impact on how far she can go, but on the other hand she'll understand the magic she uses in ways that even TSAB research mages don't. Multitasking may offset this a bit if different instances focus on different areas, and she may well see more synergies between areas than are easily found by more deeply-focused researchers.
In a few decades, she might be able to match a century's worth of normal development for one person, but to develop a library sufficient to create a useful high level language would take one person millennia, not centuries.
I also get the impression that Taylor is working on multiple things in different threads (or, in some cases different approaches to the same thing), so those things tested outside of simulation have already been tested *in* simulation (and e.g. results in a 10->1 reduction for her, which ratio is improving as she and Hive tune the simulation; for TSAB research mages perhaps this is 1000->1 or better), so...if we assume 24x7 x 20 real-time-equivalent threads that's 3360 Taylor-hours/week, vs. e.g. 40 TSAB-hours/week per researcher, so 1 Taylor = 84 TSAB researchers. That means that, if Taylor focuses, she could easily get ~2.5 millenia of research in 3 decades at that level of multi-tasking. The real-world testing time obviously is still limited, but the development time and test-in-simulation time is much less so, perhaps to the point that her real-world testing is nearly equivalent of that used by a team of that size.

It's not clear to me whether an instance of Taylor-in-a-drone can cast spells without guidance or not (and how useful they are for research/simulation); if she can, then this significantly increases the frequency of tests she can run (and how much research she can do). If not, as she can communicate with her drones across dimensions, she could still cast spells remotely, controlled by herself or one of her multitasking instances. This also could reduce the limits on real-world testing.
[T]he TASB has manged to do things as fast as they have because they have large portions of populations working on low level development and compiling scripts into high level languages. [<snip>] In other words, she simply will not have time to experiment enough to match the tens of thousands of researchers the TSAB employs both directly and indirectly.
Do you have a Nanoha-canon reference to these numbers, and the relative proportion of the population that is doing this low-level research? Note that I compared this to a typical population, as e.g. >10% doing low-level research is extremely unlikely on a long-term basis.
The Mid-Childan style has also inherited more or less incomplete versions of several ancient magical styles to use as foundations and touchstones, where Taylor and Hive only have fragmentary accounts of what various spells do, not even how they did it. In that respect they have already accomplished miraculous feats of spell design just by getting as far as they are now.
Yes, but do they understand the low-level parts of those magical styles? Based on my (limited) understanding of Nanoha canon, they do not, and a number of things those ancient styles can accomplish aren't really possible in the Mid-Childan style without significantly more effort (if at all). Taylor may have duplicated some of these effects, and certainly would be in a good position to reverse-engineer or re-create them.
 
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