In her roleclaim, long before any of us twigged to this pattern, she claimed her role does also refers and does kinda depend on an Arsonist.
Hugh's Perfectly Normal Mafia Game Where Nothing Weird Happens Whatsoever
- Thread starter hugh_donnetono
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In her roleclaim, long before any of us twigged to this pattern, she claimed her role does also refers and does kinda depend on an Arsonist.
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Like, it's possible that town is wrong here and the gimmick is as surmised. But, like, anyone could claim another role that would showcase this at any point. If so, I'll happily shift off Logos, but I'm just not seeing a reason to think the set-up allows for this. It's possible that the set-up is just a very basic one (town has a doc, no investigatives though) and not quite mountainous, but also feels a bit iffy in a game with no other particularly standard roles. It's *possible* that the scum skill is just a strong-man, but the more I sit with that, the more I don't really think it fits fairly with the theme and I'm inclined to discard this one.
The doc claim was also weird enough to get Logos suspected. I was disinclined to vote Logos yesterday owing to the fact that doc is quite useful, but it's hard to look at that unprompted reveal and conclude that we should trust Logos, particularly in light of the best read we have of game mechanics
Additionally, my own questions of the GM strongly suggest that dousing isn't counted as a kill (in that the specific language suggests my power wouldn't work on kills, but would work on dousing) so I'm a bit iffy of the mechanical interaction Logos suggests.
Forgive me if I've missed it, but I do think you should probably claim, unless someone else has strong feelings against it?
The doc claim was also weird enough to get Logos suspected. I was disinclined to vote Logos yesterday owing to the fact that doc is quite useful, but it's hard to look at that unprompted reveal and conclude that we should trust Logos, particularly in light of the best read we have of game mechanics
Additionally, my own questions of the GM strongly suggest that dousing isn't counted as a kill (in that the specific language suggests my power wouldn't work on kills, but would work on dousing) so I'm a bit iffy of the mechanical interaction Logos suggests.
Forgive me if I've missed it, but I do think you should probably claim, unless someone else has strong feelings against it?
Nictis
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Nictis
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Ah damn, broke that little personal rule because I forgot to remove the playerlist. Copying my message without it.
Let me go down the list real quick.
99Lies - Miller. There are no cops.
Roach - Coroner. There are no janitors.
Ori - Parity Vig. There can be only one.
Scia - Backup. Excepting Logos claim, there are no power roles.
Shadell - Nexus. Does not block nightkills. No other actions in the game that matter.
Nictis - Cultproof + Miller. No Cult, no Cop.
LDJ - Deprogrammer. No Cult.
Draxy - Firefighter, No Arsonist.
Chip - Took no action N1. Presumably
Zaealix - Cops for SK/Arsonist/Cult Leader. None of these exist.
Wies - You have stated your own role follows this trend.
Other roles are unknown or I'm forgetting them.
Logos - Doctor. Heals to prevent attacks or dousing.
Do you see where the trend kinda stops?
Would've posted earlier but had to help my grandmother.
Let me go down the list real quick.
99Lies - Miller. There are no cops.
Roach - Coroner. There are no janitors.
Ori - Parity Vig. There can be only one.
Scia - Backup. Excepting Logos claim, there are no power roles.
Shadell - Nexus. Does not block nightkills. No other actions in the game that matter.
Nictis - Cultproof + Miller. No Cult, no Cop.
LDJ - Deprogrammer. No Cult.
Draxy - Firefighter, No Arsonist.
Chip - Took no action N1. Presumably
Zaealix - Cops for SK/Arsonist/Cult Leader. None of these exist.
Wies - You have stated your own role follows this trend.
Other roles are unknown or I'm forgetting them.
Logos - Doctor. Heals to prevent attacks or dousing.
Do you see where the trend kinda stops?
Would've posted earlier but had to help my grandmother.
Also searching for the word "arsonist" in this thread shows she was the first to talk of an arsonist, which Zaealix and Draxy's claim also refer to. And there is also that she threw an extra vote upon scia which, again, doesn't strike me as a mafia doing that know scia is town.
That is the opposite of Nictis' case though. He claimed Logos' role stood out and now you are saying it is similiar enough anyone else would have claimed it. But is your argument that anyone could have claimed a role and first indicated an arsonist was possibly in play?
How so? There doesn't seem to be protective roles exept for a doctor, and if their strongman kill overrules that, that makes it again a vanilla wolf kill which seems to fit in with the mountaineous theme.
Huh, that is then the fourth claim that involves with the arsonist. And yet the kills went on. Pretty sure a) the arsonist doesn't exist b) a mafia might be hiding among the anti-arsonist claims.
Anyway, that is not enough evidence for me against Logos. Because Logos also suggested her role worked against an arsonist too:
Hmm, why do you think I should?
That is the opposite of Nictis' case though. He claimed Logos' role stood out and now you are saying it is similiar enough anyone else would have claimed it. But is your argument that anyone could have claimed a role and first indicated an arsonist was possibly in play?
How so? There doesn't seem to be protective roles exept for a doctor, and if their strongman kill overrules that, that makes it again a vanilla wolf kill which seems to fit in with the mountaineous theme.
Huh, that is then the fourth claim that involves with the arsonist. And yet the kills went on. Pretty sure a) the arsonist doesn't exist b) a mafia might be hiding among the anti-arsonist claims.
Anyway, that is not enough evidence for me against Logos. Because Logos also suggested her role worked against an arsonist too:
Hmm, why do you think I should?
Nictis
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This doesn't preclude the Mafia Doctor theory though.
Shadell is saying that any of the unclaimed people, yourself included, could claim a role that throws out this theory because you have a role that actually interacts with the game. Like if Seven were to claim completely normal Veteran that just shoots visitors and they turn up dead, suddenly we'd have role interaction. Zaealix would be able to get shot for visiting the wrong person.
That's still role interaction. I'd be more likely to believe in scum having a Strongman with nobody having protection than scum having a counter to the Doctor.
You have already stated that you were starting to believe that your role was secretly vanilla.
Logos- Doctor. No arsonist or preventable kills.
And, hell, I will claim my role that also somewhat doesn't fit, yet is rendered vanilla.
I am a SPY. I always learn who the wolves planned to kill. But it seems there is no one capable to prevent killings or redirect it them, so rendering my power useless.
] Vote WiesA Mafa doctor really doesn't seem to fit in this game.
Hmm, a Strongman role overruling the Doctor's powers IS indeed role interaction. hmm
But you see how far this argument goes into the weeds and doesn't say anything about Logos' own activitity within the game.
Like, I concede this argument that Logos' role does seem to stand out.
But I still dislike it, because it presumes you and Hugh are in agreement this does count as role interaction.
As I said, I prefer cases at the very least partly found on their play. But allright, there is meat to your observation.
Like, I concede this argument that Logos' role does seem to stand out.
But I still dislike it, because it presumes you and Hugh are in agreement this does count as role interaction.
As I said, I prefer cases at the very least partly found on their play. But allright, there is meat to your observation.
Nictis
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Nictis
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You said earlier that one of three players should be the vote today. Can you point to the arguments against each of them?
I said Shadell because most of her posts are about roles and she mostly keeps distant. But on a reread she makes two posts I like: her suspicion with the roach wagon and her pointed vote against Lostdeviljho she carried do strike me as pretty town.
Walker mostly because of the small amount of posts. They feel like they are trying to be careful and seem to be leaning on other's cases to vote rather than to make one themself.
Lostdeviljho tends to post a lot about roles too and feels like they hedge with their suspicions. I also dislike their Roach vote, which I consider the most suspicious Roach vote.
I am also wondering if I shouldn't vote Draxy, their one post about "not wanting to be responsible for random wagons to appear" still sounds sus, and I am a bit surprised Ori was the only one that chimed in with that, but their response when I pointed out they actually didn't vote D1 made me pause and thinking maybe they are actually town so I stopped barking up that three.
Ehhh, allllright.
[X] Vote LostDeviljho.
I am still not convinced by the case against Logos.
Thanks for summing things up Nic, didn't really get the Logos wagon before this, but yeah out of the known roles would say there's is the least likely if this indeed mountainous. At this point still think we should really be pushing for the full reveal to fully know, there's no damage if we are all truly useless which is seeming increasingly likely with each reveal.
Honestly, at this point I'm growing increasingly certain on Wies being scum. Their sudden fixation on those who have been focusing on roles today and first brought up the mountainous idea is very sus to me, and seems like their trying to defend Logos and lead town away from this revelation. Given what we know, and them claiming their own role to follow the trend without fully revealing, I don't see a point to this unless their scum.
[X] Vote Wies
I'm going to insist now, reveal please.
Nictis
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They claimed Spy, being able to see who the Mafia decide to kill at night.
LostDeviljho
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Not gonna lie, the Logos argument makes sense, but my paranoia brain keeps insisting that Nictis is actually evil. There's the whole thing with pegging the game's gimmick day one, and then there's his claim. "cultproof + miller", and he's also gone on record stating that miller is not his role, it's part of its effect. And, if you think about it, godfathers are just millers but the other direction, and probably the most likely scum member to be cultproof.
I'm a big bundle of nerves right now for RL reasons and I'm not willing to put an actual vote behind this because idk if I'm blowing things widly out of proportion, but I want it out there.
I'm a big bundle of nerves right now for RL reasons and I'm not willing to put an actual vote behind this because idk if I'm blowing things widly out of proportion, but I want it out there.
Nictis
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This obfuscation does point pretty well towards that being the case though.
Nictis
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Y'know, understandable.
I am going to respond to Draxy, but this posts confuses me, what obfuscation and what being the case?
As Nictis said, already did.
Eh, I have been consistent on not liking role chat. Might be a clash of play style. But also, I have been consistent about this. My post following the idle speculation about mountaneous game:
I am indeed defending Logos because I don't think the revelation is that important. If it is a revelation even. Scia's role points to role interaction there, no?
Not really a backup, backing up a role that does nothing is just vanilla to vanilla, it still fits. Also must of totally missed your claim, but yeah that fits. Is totally useless unless there's a neighbourhood/cult, which their probably isn't.
Would still say this is my least favourite of the roles revealed though, like with the other roles is wasn't immediatly obvious. A spy that only see's who's going to be killed that night? (That is what you're claiming right). That's next level bastard, it's obvious from just a look. Even if there is a cult/neighbour it's still an outright bastard role.
Nictis
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The obfuscation as to why Logos is a vote target. I'll show how it developed.
This is a completely inaccurate reading of the situation.
Comi's reasoning presented is that the scum interfered with the kill when Logos was the target, that they might have had the second parity vig and killed Ori to avoid having to trade later with reveals and also that Comi is reading Logos and Chip as being scum together from the previous EoD.
I point out that if Scum had the other half of the parity vig then they chose not to pursue a kill on Logos.
Here you are dismissing the night action analysis because it's Wine. Everything is wine. You do understand here the possibility that scum killed Ori because he was threatening Logos however, which runs directly counter to your later statement that the case on Logos is that he should have already been nightkilled, and is a reduction to your statement that Ori just suspected Logos.
Shadell makes it pretty clear here that the problem for him is Logos' claim of doctor, since it doesn't fit the setup with everyone else. Notably also points out that a scum doctor without another scum team fits the theme.
So your point as to what the case on Logos is is inaccurate at best.
Here you are obfuscating by talking about the pattern being that they refer to roles that don't exist and ignoring the point of it not fitting the mountainous theme. Stating that Logos' role actually fits in because it mentions an arsonist and not bringing up that it's a regular doctor. It does not depend on an arsonist in the way that a miller depends on a cop, because it prevents regular kills.
You are also well aware of what the theme being discussed is, given you posted this earlier.