Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

[occipitallobe]

Good Seed and Omake Spreadsheet Rules:

Firstly, if you have questions about Good Seeds and the like please read here. If that doesn't answer your question please ping me in thread, or on Discord.

If you write a new Good Seed, or write an omake, please update the spreadsheet if you have access.

If you do not have access, please ping a collaborator (Swordomatic, Alectai, Quest, TehChron, Insane-Not-Crazy, Humbaba, ReaderOfFate, Kaboomatic, no., BungieONI) letting them know what you want and they will update the spreadsheet here. To gain access, you will need a gmail account of some kind. Throwaway emails are fine (I'm using one for the spreadsheet), but to gain access it's as simple as sending me either your email via PM, via DM in Discord, or just in Discord's #spreadsheet-requests channel.

This is mandatory. If a Good Seed does not record their omake by pinging collabs (or just requesting access and editing things themselves - this is the preferred option), I won't give out awards. If a new Good Seed is not recorded here, they won't advance. By doing this it makes the whole thing manageable for me - it's gotten pretty unwieldy!

-----------------------

Omake Writer Instructions:

There are four fields you need to fill out.

Omake Link, which is just a link to your first omake for the turn. This makes it easier for me to read them as I do the update - without this it's tough to know off the bat which omake were written this turn, and to properly

Requested Bonus, which is your requested bonus for your omake. You can leave it up to me if you like. You can see more info in the Good Seed infopost here.

Cultivation Aims. For those following unorthodox paths - higher than 9th Heavenstage or later than 7th Dao Pillar paths. Please put in what you are aiming for before you break through. I have left it as 'default'. If you do not edit it, I'll go with that.

Turn Notes - Do you want to do something specific? Enter a Secret Realm? Help the Clan out in some way? If you have something specific you want to accomplish on this turn, put it in turn notes so I can adjust your Fate around it.

All other fields are for QM use to record character information to properly run the flow of the game.

 

[Raron]

The point is costing the Jingshen Clan, not profiting ourselves.

Their wincon is building enough money that they can crash raise three Nascent Souls and then take over the entire Desert. And they got a hefty, permanent income boost thanks to that tariff forgiveness we gave them.

Click to shrink...

I know. It's just that I'm reading the write in as "This is a rejection vote, but trying to frame it as not a rejection vote".

There is a literal 0 economical and diplomatic difference between write-in and rejection from my perspective. I'm asking is that the case, or am I missing something.

Well maybe flexing that the Dao of Acceptance is not really working on us.

 

[Chronic]

I know. It's just that I'm reading the write in as "This is a rejection vote, but trying to frame it as not a rejection vote".

There is a literal 0 economical and diplomatic difference between write-in and rejection from my perspective. I'm asking is that the case, or am I missing something.

Well maybe flexing that the Dao of Acceptance is not really working on us.

Click to shrink...

I think the difference is that the Jingshen Clan might be able to get more goodwill with the other righteous sects out of the write in that they wouldn't have gotten with a straight rejection, because the other righteous sects will send more wounded if they need to pay less to safely cross Golden Devil territory.

The other difference to straight rejection is that there will be a lower chance of incidents from wounded cultivators being outraged over our high tolls while crossing our territory, because the payment is taken from Jingshen Clans pockets.

 

[Alectai]

I know. It's just that I'm reading the write in as "This is a rejection vote, but trying to frame it as not a rejection vote".

There is a literal 0 economical and diplomatic difference between write-in and rejection from my perspective. I'm asking is that the case, or am I missing something.

Well maybe flexing that the Dao of Acceptance is not really working on us.

Click to shrink...

No, the difference is the Jingshen clan pays the difference in the Tariff fees. But we reinvest that extra money in something that they can't realistically say no to without spoiling the whole plan.

So like, say, the base tariff rate for a cultivator is 30 spirit stones. What the Jingshen Clan wants us to do is reduce that to 15 for people going to the Oasis Spring in exchange for forting it up against Blood Cannibal aggression on their own expense. The counter offer is "Okay, I'll charge them only 15 spirit stones--but you're on the hook for the remaining 15, but don't worry, we'll invest that 15 in making the route easier to travel"

 

[BookZone]

Lastly was Ioannes Vatatzes, your third Great Circle Core Formation Elder. He is Protostrator, leader of your armies. When the time comes to gather up into formations and strike at enemies, or defend your cities, it is he who organises them, leads them, and manages the Clan Contribution Board to ensure the correct tasks get done. He is completely bald, with a beard down to his green-tinged waist. He is very vain about his beard, though, and regularly cleanses off the patina to ensure it is bright and bronzed. His skin is rotting in places, and his beard is the only healthy part remaining. The Clone you made of him weakened him greatly, and the poison is now killing him with incredible rapidity. Aikaterine Callista will need to take over in a few short decades - while competent, she is far younger and less experienced. She will represent a considerable downgrade to your warmaking capabilities.

Click to shrink...

I don't know if negotiating access to the healing spring for the leader of our armies would be worth it with the risk of the acceptance girl getting to him but his successor is a considerable downgrade so I think it should at least be considered.

 

[Raron]

No, the difference is the Jingshen clan pays the difference in the Tariff fees. But we reinvest that extra money in something that they can't realistically say no to without spoiling the whole plan.

So like, say, the base tariff rate for a cultivator is 30 spirit stones. What the Jingshen Clan wants us to do is reduce that to 15 for people going to the Oasis Spring in exchange for forting it up against Blood Cannibal aggression on their own expense. The counter offer is "Okay, I'll charge them only 15 spirit stones--but you're on the hook for the remaining 15, but don't worry, we'll invest that 15 in making the route easier to travel"

Click to shrink...

In both of those cases we do get 30 Spirit Stones, the Jingshen are not happy since they have to up the prices on their healing bath to cover the expenses if they agree to write in, and the price from outsider point of view is the same (still need to pay same amount for tariff+healing). I'm literally not seeing a difference here except a marketing trick.

I guess it pisses off the Jingshen a bit more, since they look like the bad guys trying to rob wounded cultivators and we look like helpful bunch by lowering the tariffs. It also offloads problematic cultivators to Jingshen side.

 

[uri]

[X] Negotiate:
-[X]remove the investment of fortification clause but the Jingshen will give us a onetime sum equal to twenty years of our income and they will pay the difference in the tolls, add a clause that says that this deal will be renegotiate in sixty years.
--[X] Manuel will deliberately allow himself to be bargained down for removing the entirety of the onetime payment in a way that will imply that he is affected by her Dao
---[X] meanwhile over sixty years gather poisons and ways to blocke teleportation discreetly and when the Jingshen send her to renegotiate the deal (if we aren't in a war) kill her, proclaim that she tried to mind control us and demand heavy reciprocations from the Jingshen on the pain of war.


Now we know the Jingshen want to raise three nascent soul cultivators to dominate the region and they have two right now (and the third will probably be raise in a century or so), now the war with the demonic alter sect probably won't end for at least 40-60 years (how long were the last wars?) and the devil's bees will be busy raiding into the plains.


And so if we make them think she is succeeding in trying to affect us we trap and kill her when she comes to negotiate with us again, then we threaten war on the Jingshen if they don't give us a heavy tribute because they tried to mined control us.

 

[Chronic]

[X] Negotiate
-[X] You are not materially opposed to this arrangement, none wish to see the Demonic Altar Sect move unopposed after all, but you must also see to the well being of your people, and the last thing any of us want would be spies from the Demonic Altar Sect slipping through and setting up camp here, or bolstering the weakened Blood Cannibals, no? The Golden Devil Clan is willing to charge reduced tariffs on those who seek the springs for healing--but the Jingshen Clan will be responsible for paying the difference--such resources will be committed to the establishment of a secure road and other methods of heightened security for the duration of this agreement.

 

[Zephias]

[X] Negotiate
-[X] You are not materially opposed to this arrangement, none wish to see the Demonic Altar Sect move unopposed after all, but you must also see to the well being of your people, and the last thing any of us want would be spies from the Demonic Altar Sect slipping through and setting up camp here, or bolstering the weakened Blood Cannibals, no? The Golden Devil Clan is willing to charge reduced tariffs on those who seek the springs for healing--but the Jingshen Clan will be responsible for paying the difference--such resources will be committed to the establishment of a secure road and other methods of heightened security for the duration of this agreement.

I can get behind this.

 

[TehChron]

In both of those cases we do get 30 Spirit Stones, the Jingshen are not happy since they have to up the prices on their healing bath to cover the expenses if they agree to write in, and the price from outsider point of view is the same (still need to pay same amount for tariff+healing). I'm literally not seeing a difference here except a marketing trick.

Click to shrink...

???

The difference here is that they got what they wanted, but it tastes like ash, they're paying out of pocket, and we successfully humiliate this absurdly cocky Young Junior they keep sending us as a naked insult with her mindfucking Dao?

They certainly can't say "The Golden Devils were being assholes to the Righteous Sects by making us carry the costs of you sending your Cultivators to use our springs" when either way the righteous sect folks still wind up paying less

It means that making up for that cost would wind up earning the enmity of the Cultivators that go there, rather than experience the blowback we'd suffer from a straight refusal.

 

[Raron]

???

The difference here is that they got what they wanted, but it tastes like ash, they're paying out of pocket, and we successfully humiliate this absurdly cocky Young Junior they keep sending us as a naked insult with her mindfucking Dao?

They certainly can't say "The Golden Devils were being assholes to the Righteous Sects by making us carry the costs of you sending your Cultivators to use our springs" when either way the righteous sect folks still wind up paying less

It means that making up for that cost would wind up earning the enmity of the Cultivators that go there, rather than experience the blowback we'd suffer from a straight refusal.

Click to shrink...

They don't really get anything they wanted. They wanted money, they don't get that. They want good reputation. They also don't get that via write in.

Why would they accept that then.

In general, when you try to make deals, you make it so both sides profit. They gave a offer which profits them and causes us a general loss, we counteracted with a offer which actually profits us and causes loss to them. They would be a fool to accept it.

It indeed tastes like ash. So, why would somebody eat ash?

I guess it could be Rejection 2.0, Reject harder.

 

[Alectai]

They don't really get anything they wanted. They wanted money, they don't get that. They want good reputation. They also don't get that via write in.

Why would they accept that then.

In general, when you try to make deals, you make it so both sides profit. They gave a offer which profits them and causes us a general loss, we counteracted with a offer which actually profits us and causes loss to them. They would be a fool to accept it.

It indeed tastes like ash. So, why would somebody eat ash?

I guess it could be Rejection 2.0, Reject harder.

Click to shrink...

Reputational benefits. And it's not like they'll make no profit whatsoever--the original plan almost certainly involves them making a fortune off of it.

The point is to remind them that we're not to be trifled with.

 

[Anders]

[X] Negotiate
-[X] You are not materially opposed to this arrangement, none wish to see the Demonic Altar Sect move unopposed after all, but you must also see to the well being of your people, and the last thing any of us want would be spies from the Demonic Altar Sect slipping through and setting up camp here, or bolstering the weakened Blood Cannibals, no? The Golden Devil Clan is willing to charge reduced tariffs on those who seek the springs for healing--but the Jingshen Clan will be responsible for paying the difference--such resources will be committed to the establishment of a secure road and other methods of heightened security for the duration of this agreement.

 

[uri]

Reputational benefits. And it's not like they'll make no profit whatsoever--the original plan almost certainly involves them making a fortune off of it.

The point is to remind them that we're not to be trifled with.

Click to shrink...

But it doesn't actually hurts them that much, nor does it delays their plan for long also we have an opportunity here they underestimate us let's use it

 

[TehChron]

But it doesn't actually hurts them that much, nor does it delays their plan for long also we have an opportunity here they underestimate us let's use it

Click to shrink...

Yes it does, because whatever costs theyre forced to eat from this mean they wont be able to afford fortifying the Oasis, meaning that whatever scheme Old Cannibal concocted to backstab them will have a higher chance of success

 

[AlphaDelta]

[X] Negotiate
-[X] You are not materially opposed to this arrangement, none wish to see the Demonic Altar Sect move unopposed after all, but you must also see to the well being of your people, and the last thing any of us want would be spies from the Demonic Altar Sect slipping through and setting up camp here, or bolstering the weakened Blood Cannibals, no? The Golden Devil Clan is willing to charge reduced tariffs on those who seek the springs for healing--but the Jingshen Clan will be responsible for paying the difference--such resources will be committed to the establishment of a secure road and other methods of heightened security for the duration of this agreement.

The analysis is sound.

 

[Sara]

It means that making up for that cost would wind up earning the enmity of the Cultivators that go there, rather than experience the blowback we'd suffer from a straight refusal.

Click to shrink...

The righteous powers already hates us quite a bit, but unless their willing too march a army through the mountains into the desert to root us out while trying to find us through our arrays, while maintaining the poison crushing siege, suppressing a bunch of lunatics destroying the land by messing with time, and fighting a war of attrition against the demonic altar sect which has a incredible ability to replenish their forces, i'm not sure what more their going to do to us in response.

My main concern is that i'm not sure exactly how bad the blowback will really be for us realistically, whereas if the Jiangshen are able to gain a lot of resources from this due to the warriors coming here having more to spend to due to us lower our tarriffs it could plausibly allow them to raise a third nascent soul or a bunch more Core Formation cultivators which seems like it could cause us a fair amount of harm without needing any of the righteous powers help.

Maybe i'm not seeing the bigger picture, but I think our best tact here here is to make sure they gain as little wealth from this as possible whereas maximizing how much we do, because from what I can gather the more spirit stones they can afford, the easier time they have sending out forces of cultivators to attack our territory or harass us or stock up on treasures or raise their own cultivators in power. Meanwhile, while the road being safer is nice and all, those lowered tariffs also cost us a degree of wealth as well which we could use to do those same things. I'm actually under the impression we could use a lot more wealth too because of the cost of fortifying the border against devil bees recently, and this seem like a decent way to get it.

 

[uri]

Yes it does, because whatever costs theyre forced to eat from this mean they wont be able to afford fortifying the Oasis, meaning that whatever scheme Old Cannibal concocted to backstab them will have a higher chance of success

Click to shrink...

Sure they wont make the same amount of profit but they will probably make a good amount of profit anyway and still get goodwill with the other righteous powers.

 

[TehChron]

The righteous powers already hates us quite a bit, but unless their willing too march a army through the mountains into the desert to root us out while trying to find us through our arrays, while maintaining the poison crushing siege, suppressing a bunch of lunatics destroying the land by messing with time, and fighting a war of attrition against the demonic altar sect which has a incredible ability to replenish their forces, i'm not sure what more their going to do to us in response.

Click to shrink...

The point isn't to make us less hated, it's to make the Jiangshen more hated and thus likely to get further assistance in setting up the kind of bullshit trades that netted them that drill in the first place.

The less good will they have, the less likely they are to develop as a major threat on a relevant timescale. Which is all the more critical because one of our starting bonuses just got ganked without us ever getting a chance to benefit from them.

 

[leap]

[X] Disagree.

 

[Raron]

Reputational benefits. And it's not like they'll make no profit whatsoever--the original plan almost certainly involves them making a fortune off of it.

The point is to remind them that we're not to be trifled with.

Click to shrink...

I mean, they get the same reputation regardless. It's "Get healing here if you pay 150 spirit stones + 30 tariff", compared to "Get healing here if you pay 165 spirit stones + 15 tariff". All they have to do is go public with this contract to explain their "high" prices, and we look like bad guys again. Who are they going to believe? Demonic or Righteous Faction? It offloads problematic cultivators to them, but probably takes a extra drop in relationship with Jingshen. Which I'm really not bothered with.

Oasis rebels territory is similar in "resources" to one of our newly gained territories, so instead of spiritual mine, they probably get a spiritual spring. It's not a fortune, but probably a Core Cultivator extra like our new spirit mines get us.

So yes, I have been convinced that the vote is not the same. There are indeed minor differences. So now I have to decide which one I should vote for. Because to me, it really does not seem like something to argue over. Especially considering that Jingshen clan will probably reject the counteroffer.

Edit: You know what, why the heck not. It's not like there are any tangable differences from my perspective. And I'd like to be proven wrong on this one.

[X] Negotiate
-[X] You are not materially opposed to this arrangement, none wish to see the Demonic Altar Sect move unopposed after all, but you must also see to the well being of your people, and the last thing any of us want would be spies from the Demonic Altar Sect slipping through and setting up camp here, or bolstering the weakened Blood Cannibals, no? The Golden Devil Clan is willing to charge reduced tariffs on those who seek the springs for healing--but the Jingshen Clan will be responsible for paying the difference--such resources will be committed to the establishment of a secure road and other methods of heightened security for the duration of this agreement.

Which is all the more critical because one of our starting bonuses just got ganked without us ever getting a chance to benefit from them.

Click to shrink...

Maybe they have a second Nascent Soul! We can dream.

 

[Sara]

Yes it does, because whatever costs theyre forced to eat from this mean they wont be able to afford fortifying the Oasis, meaning that whatever scheme Old Cannibal concocted to backstab them will have a higher chance of success

Click to shrink...

The point isn't to make us less hated, it's to make the Jiangshen more hated and thus likely to get further assistance in setting up the kind of bullshit trades that netted them that drill in the first place.

The less good will they have, the less likely they are to develop as a major threat on a relevant timescale. Which is all the more critical because one of our starting bonuses just got ganked without us ever getting a chance to benefit from them.

Click to shrink...

If this is actually true, then aren't they obviously just going to refuse, because leaving themselves vulnerable to Old Man Cannibal is pretty bad especially if he actually manages to take back the spring which would make this entire endeavor pointless for them? People have laid out this negotiating tactic as a offer they can't refuse, but if their options are accept and potentially lose the spring to the blood cannibals going roughshod over it whenever the treaty involved expires in who knows how long or decline and keep it while still maintaining a lot of benefits, why would they lose face for declining? If the righteous cultivators learn about it, they can just say that if they had taken it then the spring itself could have been deprived from them by the perfidious followers of the blood path, and isn't is just like those devious golden devils to concoct a ruse that so wounds the true followers of justice for their own gain while pretending to have the moral high ground?

On the other hand, if our main threat is not them using the wealth that easily translates into power but them gaining more influence, then wouldn't working out a deal which involves them getting us to lower their tarriffs while making the trade route even safer and faster for the righteous powers be even more of a reputational coup? Suddenly, the righteous powers are way, way more invested in the Jiangshen clans success because they want them to be able to hold that spring which is now a crucial war asset for them, and if the Jiangshen are charging more then suddenly they don't seem like such bad guys because, well, they need to make sure they can provide the valuble service of healing the front line in the battle against evil and sending them back on their merry way to reinforce themselves as fast as possible, right? They can't do that if Blood cannibals manage to break through their defenses and overrun them, and hey, now any support the righteous powers would decide to send is even faster and more frequent because of that better trade route. I mean, the lowered tarriff only applies to Core Cultivators going to heal from the springs, but surely we wouldn't shake them down for giving gifts to their gracious hosts in the Jiangshen Clan, and if the Jiangshen clan is turn generous to their guests, well, isn't that simply the honorable thing to do? Plus, even for normal traders safer, better roads means its easier to take long trips like that then it was before.

Are either of these scenario's making any sense or am I missing something?

 

[uri]

So yes, I have been convinced that the vote is not the same. There are indeed minor differences. So now I have to decide which one I should vote for. Because to me, it really does not seem like something to argue over. Especially considering that Jingshen clan will probably reject the counteroffer.

Click to shrink...

Then maybe I can convince you to vote for my plan?


Which basically says that we will start with a big counter offer allow ourselves to be bargained down while adding a clause to renegotiate in sixty years, making the Jiangshen think that the lady's Dao is working on us and when they send her to renegotiate we kill her on the excuse that she is trying to mind control us and then threatening the Jiangshen for heavy reparations.

 

[Kaboomatic]

[X] Negotiate
-[X] You are not materially opposed to this arrangement, none wish to see the Demonic Altar Sect move unopposed after all, but you must also see to the well being of your people, and the last thing any of us want would be spies from the Demonic Altar Sect slipping through and setting up camp here, or bolstering the weakened Blood Cannibals, no? The Golden Devil Clan is willing to charge reduced tariffs on those who seek the springs for healing--but the Jingshen Clan will be responsible for paying the difference--such resources will be committed to the establishment of a secure road and other methods of heightened security for the duration of this agreement.

 

[Sara]

[X] Negotiate
-[X] You are not materially opposed to this arrangement, none wish to see the Demonic Altar Sect move unopposed after all, but you must also see to the well being of your people, and the last thing any of us want would be spies from the Demonic Altar Sect slipping through and setting up camp here, or bolstering the weakened Blood Cannibals, no? The Golden Devil Clan is willing to charge reduced tariffs on those who seek the springs for healing--but the Jingshen Clan will be responsible for paying the difference--such resources will be committed to the establishment of a secure road and other methods of heightened security for the duration of this agreement.

On second thought, i'll throw my hat in with this. If the potential wealth gain from the spring was really as huge a potential boon and thus threat to us as I've seen people speculate it is, I'd expect that Manuel would be freaking out a bit more.

Meanwhile, even this option does goes bad it doesn't seem like the sort of thing that would necessarily snowball into a game over without further screw ups, it'll still tell us what economic and diplomatic assumptions about the setting are correct, which will help make better decisions in the future, plus securing and improving our trade routes is something we'd want to eventually be doing anyway.

 

[Raron]

Then maybe I can convince you to vote for my plan?


Which basically says that we will start with a big counter offer allow ourselves to be bargained down while adding a clause to renegotiate in sixty years, making the Jiangshen think that the lady's Dao is working on us and when they send her to renegotiate we kill her on the excuse that she is trying to mind control us and then threatening the Jiangshen for heavy reparations.

Click to shrink...

No.

You don't break sanctity of negotiations without a very good reason. Somebody trying to mind control you is not a good enough reason. It also votes for killing a Nascent Soul, something very hard, accepting a lump sum, which is bad, and breaking a deal. Which is extra bad with a cherry on top.

And nobody cares if she is trying to mind control us. This is xianxia. If you aren't trying to one-up your opponent by foul means, you aren't really trying. As a side note, nobody has a lump sum of 40 year laying around, and if they did, they certainly wouldn't give it to us.

From my perspective, differences between Alectai write-in and refusal are almost none. So either I'm right, and the vote really does not matter, or Alectai is right and voting refusal would be against our interest (there is also the option of Alectai plan being against our interest, but that would also mean that we are both wrong, and we can't have that, can we?). As such I literally lose nothing by voting for that plan.

Alectai vote is similar. Yours is several steps in several different directions.