Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

[occipitallobe]

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[Sirrocco]

-[X] Manuel and Kleisthenes only, Manuel heading a western Prong, Kleisthenes Southern.
--[X] There are two advantages we have in terms of force obfuscation. The first is the spear, hard earned and only brought about by Jin Muyi's sacrifice. The Second is Kleisthenes. I will attack from the west, challenging Junjie and his daughter implicitly, daring them to face me. Junjie now has a choice. On the one hand, this may be a bluff, and I may be obfuscating another nascent or stalling him. But Lady Yao will be seen elsewhere in our core territories, and Kleisthenes' tribulation was barely a nascent tribulation at all, fitting more with a Core Formation, or a Single Pillar 'King', of which we now have several. On the other hand, this may be me hiding a new secret weapon, a single use treasure to kill a nascent perhaps, or something else. The benefit of a competent opponent is that you can predict them, at least slightly, and Junjie is definitely competent. But this time, I don't need to predict him. Either he sees that this is a bluff, moves to protect the south, and I run rampant over his best defenses, or he sees that this is me bluffing of a different sort, attacks me, and I spear him through the chest. Either way, once one 'bluff' is revealed, he will be blinded to the other.

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The basic problem here is this: Old Jingshen goes south. Old Jingshen faces Kleisthenes. Kleisthenes is not in any way ready to face an established Middle Nascent Soul, and Bad Things Happen. Manuel can open up his bag of tricks, but it's not going to let her compete at Old Jingshen's level with his bag of tricks. She can't even face down Jiao all that effectively yet. The point of doing it with just legions is that if he actually munches some... they're just legions.

 

[Some_guy_161]

[X] Manuel's plan

 

[TheCount]

[X] Manuel's plan

[X] Plan Shell Game, Modified

 

[tenchifew]

[X] Manuel's plan

 

[Swordomatic]

The basic problem here is this: Old Jingshen goes south. Old Jingshen faces Kleisthenes. Kleisthenes is not in any way ready to face an established Middle Nascent Soul, and Bad Things Happen. Manuel can open up his bag of tricks, but it's not going to let her compete at Old Jingshen's level with his bag of tricks. She can't even face down Jiao all that effectively yet. The point of doing it with just legions is that if he actually munches some... they're just legions.

Click to shrink...

Kleisthenes doesn't need to face an established Middle Nascent Soul. She needs to threaten his brides and force him out, then hold for the hour or less that Manuel needs to comb his beard and come over to fight.

She's a Nascent Soul now. She's not about to explode violently to Dao Emanations in ten seconds or less. She can hold long enough for Manuel to relieve her, against Jiao or Junjie.

 

[GlassOlive]

The basic problem here is this: Old Jingshen goes south. Old Jingshen faces Kleisthenes. Kleisthenes is not in any way ready to face an established Middle Nascent Soul, and Bad Things Happen. Manuel can open up his bag of tricks, but it's not going to let her compete at Old Jingshen's level with his bag of tricks. She can't even face down Jiao all that effectively yet. The point of doing it with just legions is that if he actually munches some... they're just legions.

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If you read the whole post, that's addressed:

If Jingshen does launch an attack on Kleisthenes, or if her legion is simply overwhelmed, then Manuel's able to respond easily.

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A mid vs an early, especially non-combat Jingshen, isn't an auto-win, and Manuel will be able to get there fast enough to prevent a serious wound. Worse case scenario she uses the LST we bought for her, but that requires enough commitment to the attack that Manuel is guaranteed to waste at least one LST in return, if not inflict some actual damage.

Also, the whole point of letting him munch legions is that we get to engage him. Kleisthenes is less expendable, but commensurately more durable and thus can hang on.

 

[Kaboomatic]

Kleisthenes doesn't need to face an established Middle Nascent Soul. She needs to threaten his brides and force him out, then hold for the hour or less that Manuel needs to comb his beard and come over to fight.

She's a Nascent Soul now. She's not about to explode violently to Dao Emanations in ten seconds or less. She can hold long enough for Manuel to relieve her, against Jiao or Junjie.

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Yeah, in addition, we asked occi on the discord about an earlier draft of the plan, and he said it was workable.

Chimerical Tesseract: Amaranth — Yesterday at 11:18 PM
Spatial-manipulations of that sort sound feasible to me. He's a Nascent, after all
Occipitallobe — Yesterday at 11:18 PM
I would say things like the dao emanations and the talismans aren't necessary when it comes to plans.
Chimerical Tesseract: Amaranth — Yesterday at 11:18 PM
He straight up has a time-stop art
Chimerical Tesseract: Amaranth — Yesterday at 11:18 PM
Ah, below our level of abstraction?
Still, it is a bit fun to account for things like that, even if it ultimately comes down to a few rolls.
Occipitallobe — Yesterday at 11:19 PM
Essentially, yeah

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For reference, this is asking about having Manuel create a talisman to summon himself to Klei's side.

 

[Lampshade]

Kleisthenes is less expendable, but commensurately more durable and thus can hang on.

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If Klei-as-bait allows us to cap Junjie but dies, we seize two treasure piles and promote Casia + XX. Nothing personal, just good business.

Realistically, in Old Jingshen's shoes, you would have promoted the Outer Elder turns ago, right?

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I would have tried a lot harder to make the southern lands work and to incentivize the deadbeat descendants to get ready to advance. Although, if I really was in Junjie's shoes, I'd also have 40k concubines so IDK about planning shit out . . .

 

[mastigos]

Bear Enslavement Sect

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This sect will never stop being funny to me: "fuck bears in particular", the sect

 

[AlphaDelta]

[X] Plan Shell Game, Modified
This plan was workshopped, and the reasoning is sound.

 

[The Meddler]

[X] Plan Shell Game, Modified

 

[Sirrocco]

Well, I can be wrong, I suppose. Sure. If "Klei hangs on long enough that Manuel makes it there" is viable, then that's cool. Certainly saves us some legionnaires. It does mean that we're revealing Klei, though - if he makes it home, he's going to be immediately spinning up the new Nascent. So, the downside is if the clash comes off somehow inconclusive. Still, all plans have risk.

vote change.

[X] Plan Shell Game, Modified

This sect will never stop being funny to me: "fuck bears in particular", the sect

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That's... ah...
They don't like to talk about that part.

 

[Gajoti]

[x] Plan Shell Game, Modified

 

[Insane-Not-Crazy]

[X] Manuel's plan

 

[Olivebirdy]

Manuel is going to be feinting so he seems to be in each flank. Jingshen and Jiao already aren't sure they can take Manuel working together. If they were, they'd have tried it by now. I think they're going to be glued together for this war. Buddy system. They're going to attack either flank together. In their place I'd be defending the forts, as the GSCannon is best used for tipping Nascent fights.
In the modified Shell Game plan, Manuel and the Spear may very well be going up against Jiao, Jingshen, and the GSCannon. Rough. If they win, they get the Spear. If we win, we either won the war, or J&J activate recall LSTs and bunker up.

 

[Katana1515]

[X] Manuel's plan
This is tough, since Sheng's plan is pretty much exactly what I would have proposed.

Splitting our forces is not going to be good for my blood pressure, but it looks like Sheng has really upped the force number from his proposed expedition force at the council vote. If both he and Manuel think its an adaquate force to take those emplacements without overly exposing our Nascents, I have to listen to their judgement.

And the last thing we need is a dead Second Elder or a negotiated resolution that gives the new 'Purity Empire' a chance to showcase how invaluable it can be to its new subjects.

 

[Shard]

[X] Manuel's plan

If we're going to take a risk to kill the enemy Nascent, might as well go all the way, I feel.

 

[jamie96969]

[X] Plan Shell Game, Modified

 

[shibosho]

[X] Manuel's plan

 

[Katana1515]

Keep in mind that the SPS also has a strong incentive to exaggerate/overblow the terms, especially when talking to the Core/Foundation Establishment members of the council. Then they can ease off on their demands when they're talking Nascent to Nascent and the real decision making gets made - maybe each sect gets a guaranteed baseline portion of wealth, or gets to put an Elder on the renumeration council.

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You know when I first read this I would have sworn I had already brought up the possibility the SPS demand was at least partially just an opening gambit, and that individual Sects might be able to negotiate cut-outs and exemptions.

But after looking back I only mentioned it on Discord! Peril of having the same conversation in 2 places. So thanks for bringing that up, its an important point.

 

[Sirrocco]

Manuel is going to be feinting so he seems to be in each flank. Jingshen and Jiao already aren't sure they can take Manuel working together. If they were, they'd have tried it by now. I think they're going to be glued together for this war. Buddy system. They're going to attack either flank together. In their place I'd be defending the forts, as the GSCannon is best used for tipping Nascent fights.
In the modified Shell Game plan, Manuel and the Spear may very well be going up against Jiao, Jingshen, and the GSCannon. Rough. If they win, they get the Spear. If we win, we either won the war, or J&J activate recall LSTs and bunker up.

Click to shrink...

If they win so hard that they get the spear, it'll be because Manuel is dead, and we'll follow soon after. I really don't think that's going to happen, though.

If the hold back until we get within range of the GSC, then it'll be because they let Manuel and his army walk over the first two forts, and let Klei do whatever it was that she was going to do down south... and with Manuel's plan, they could do that anyway, except it would take us longer.

Also... you've immediately jumped to worst possible scenario. "Use the GSC is an obvious enough move that Manuel will have prepared for it, and if they do catch him in the three-way, and he thinks he can't win, he can certainly still withdraw far enough to be out of GSC range.

 

[Lampshade]

I think they're going to be glued together for this war. Buddy system. ( . . . ) In the modified Shell Game plan, Manuel and the Spear may very well be going up against Jiao, Jingshen, and the GSCannon.

Click to shrink...

Manuel will be hiding among an army of clones, though, and he excells at poke-and-hide. The spear and his experience seem enough to stall them in the worst case, more likely chase them off and possibly even score a decent hit if really lucky. The shock value of the True Strike Law alone will probably send them running.

I'm more concerned about the option where both go south. As things are written, Manuel would go full This Is Fine and keep doing his thing, where realistically he'd probably move to even things out, so I'm hoping that will be one of the common sense overrides. This was wrong.

I'm also still not fully sold on Yao staying behind, since Jiao is traumatized from her last two visits and Junjie leaving while his land is attacked sounds absurd, but that train of thought seems to be a non-starter . . .

[X] Plan Shell Game, Modified

 

[nothingtoseehere]

[X] Manuel's plan

If we can trade all 9 legions for a kill on Old Jingshen, it's a win.

 

[Olivebirdy]

Also... you've immediately jumped to worst possible scenario. "Use the GSC is an obvious enough move that Manuel will have prepared for it, and if they do catch him in the three-way, and he thinks he can't win, he can certainly still withdraw far enough to be out of GSC range.

Click to shrink...

Forgot to quote it, it was meant to be in response to "worst case scenario we lose some legions when we come back up Jiao"

If the hold back until we get within range of the GSC, then it'll be because they let Manuel and his army walk over the first two forts, and let Klei do whatever it was that she was going to do down south... and with Manuel's plan, they could do that anyway, except it would take us longer.

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Mhm. It's why I haven't voted for Manuel's plan yet. I'm still percolating ideas.

Kleisthenes is a secret, we could leave her and a Hoplite Formation behind to defend the backline while pretending to go all-in with Yao and Manuel. Tempt an attack on our backline, Nascents can fly away from Cores if necessary, so it won't be risky for them to attack.

What I'd really like to do is sucker J&J out of the USP with Yao and/or Manuel so that Kleisthenes can take it and keep them out.

[] Plan Home Invasion
-[] Yao visibly protects the backline.
-[] Manuel, backed by the full force of all the legions, heads up the Scorpion Road.
-[] If Jingshen wishes to have any hope of stopping Manuel and the Hoplite Formation, he and his daughter will need to defend at Wangshen Fort with the Great Spirit Cannon.
[] Meanwhile, Kleisthenes enters the Underworld Spirit Palace while the Nascents are gone. If she can keep them out, she should do so, conquering most of Jingshen's wealth in one fell swoop. If she can't, she should wreak havoc among the royalty, steal the piles of tribulation treasures, and ruin fortifications before running away.
[] If Jingshen's Nascents do not come out, possibly because the Wangshen Nascent Cannon may not be online, Manuel is then to head South, splitting off from the legions, leaving both more vulnerable to attack, with Kleisthenes still hiding in the wings.


This plan does leave Manuel alone against the cannon, Jingshen and Jiao, but hopefully with the Spear and all the legions we can bring he will be able to hold off long enough that Kleisthenes can get some good home invasion done. Thoughts, tinkering?

Way I see it, getting the trib treasures is a strategic goal. We'd have more Nascents, they would find it harder to promote their Cores. Even if we bait out and kill J&J they won't die, they're rich enough to have multiple LSTs each. If either of them survives and retreats to the USP or if a Prince or Princess shatters their core we won't get it since a single Nascent can hold the USP against everyone. Getting the USP is worth not killing them immediately as it's worth as much as everything else put together. Keeping them from using USP as home base will make it much easier to kill them. They won't be able to just hold wherever else they are for hundreds of years.

 

[Simon_Jester]

So Strength Purity is making a power grab.

Not surprising given the other Righteous Path Powers weakness

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Yeah, this sounds a lot like the Delian League.

Amazing update, loads to unpick here. Looks to me like the SPS has decided the Tyrants Path is the only way they climb out of this particular pit of vipers.

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I mean... I'm not sure they're wrong. The Wei Princess is enough muscle to hold one Late Nascent Soul in check, but not two. They need a coalition, they need a stable coalition that can be relied upon to exert something approximating its full strength at all times. Given that most xianxia cultivators tend to be bickering prideful morons, that means a coalition that fears getting their balls kicked up between their ears if they don't, even if the Righteous Powers win the war.

Which means, well... the Delian League.

Jingshen can't afford it, the mountain clans likely don't see the need. But which Plains powers might object? Surely if enough do the whole thing becomes unfeasible.

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In which case the Blood Path eats everyone, which is pretty much the same thing that would happen anyway at this rate if the Righteous Powers alliance doesn't unfuck its internal structure and start working together.

I'd be pretty negative about what Strength Purity was doing if they weren't fighting megacidal cannibal supervillains, but they are.

Ancient Blood Devil sure is a bad ass name for a dude we call Old Cannibal, wonder what they call Old Gold.

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If Old Gold ascends to Late Nascent or kills a Mid-Nascent in single combat, they'll give him a scarier nickname.

This is fantastic, truly.

I've changed my mind on economic policy after conquering the Jingshen. The Righteous Powers want to sacrifice efficiency for centralization? Let's punish that mistake, by skyrocketing the prices of stones and pulling out of any war contributions. Let them starve while Old Cannibal eats. Ensure a breakdown of the system, faster than would be possible before.

Then, once they are sufficiently weak, lower the prices to a fraction of what they were, so that they can make a huge comeback. Make the war apocalyptic in cost, so that no one to the north will be strong enough to face us once we finish revving up our hegemonic economy.

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Tempting, though it makes me nervous.

Remember, Old Cannibal (or Ancient Blood Devil, whatever) is very likely to specifically come gunning for us after his oath to stay out of the desert expires. He may well regard Manuel's intrigue skills and sneaky bastard tricks as his own one true weakness, and he certainly hates us for the defeats we've imposed on him.

If he spends the next 100-140 years hulking out and devouring the southlands while the Righteous Powers are hamstrung in their attempts to fight him, we could be extra super screwed when he finally shows up.

Thoughts
Well everyone can see our invasion of Jingshen coming now.

They invite a demonic faction to their meetings.
1st meeting we're present they announce some righteous factions who don't contribute will be left to fight their own wars.
They set terms that everyone knows factions like Jingshen cannot agree to.
I mean even if we weren't planning an invasion before we would have to be tempted just after hearing that we won't get hit by a coalition in response.

SPS have to know that. Junjie has been yelling about how he's afraid of being invaded by us since before the Blood Cannibals got kicked out of the desert.

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Huh. Good point.

They're actually sacrificing two Nascents who would never risk themselves for the Righteous Path. There's an incredible amount of trust in us that we won't cast aside our honor in victory and descend into atrocities

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To be fair, we've had literally millennia, possibly tens of millennia, of opportunities to do so. By now I think they have the measure of us pretty well. I hope so, anyway.

- Let's suppose we go for the plan where we conquer enough of the Jingshen that we can just bottle up the rest, and then allow a peace treaty that gives free passage to the survivors that want it over to the Righteous lands to the west. That's probably going to beef the Righteous types up a bit, but not as much as you might think. The Jingshen have been living in their mines for Nascent generations, and Old Jingshen's Dao is something about Patriarchy. Breaking his dominion and sending him elsewhere would be like sending Old Fish to the desert. He'll still be a Nascent, and he'll still be pertinent, but he'll be much reduced.

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Alternatively, Old Jingshen might try to go down fighting, but Lady Jiao might be if anything strengthened by just... Accepting... a total defeat and retreat from her ancestral homeland.

Even if both do retreat, in theory the balance of power between them might shift. Is a crippled Mid-Nascent stronger than a reasonably solid Early Nascent? Maybe.