Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

[occipitallobe]

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[occipitallobe]

A small meeting, Manuel thought.

A smile quirked on his lips as he saw Rina Callista enter. The girl was barely two hundred- he stopped himself. He supposed once you commanded a Legion you had best be considered a woman, otherwise there was only one other adult in the entire Clan. Difficult to believe this crop of juniors had sprung up so fast, but despite losing in single combat to Core Formation elders quite often, her strategic utility outweighed that single fact.

He saw other faces there. Nicara Rantakos, a Legate who had risen by her own ability into Core Formation, commanding her Beast-Blooded Legion. Arts of fusing beast blood into the body to facilitate transformations. They were a quick-striking Legion, and one that had become often companions of Lady Yao. Other Legates, Sheng Yu, and of course Kleisthenes and Lady Yao.

Sheng Yu's offensive Legions and the three Nascent Souls the Clan now possessed.

He cleared his throat.

Not that there had been much chatter before, but what little there had been fell quiet.

"Sheng Yu, please begin."

Manuel inclined his head, and Yu began to speak. His voice was dry and clipped, and he paced as he spoke.

"The strategic calculus on a Nascent scale has changed appreciable in the last two decades. The Second Elder has risen to the level of an Early Nascent Soul, Lady Yao is still with us for the time being, and furthermore the Archegetes has obtained a Nascent-scale weapon capable of securing victory in most otherwise equal contests for a reasonable number of uses. Conversely, the Jingshen are capable of doubling their Nascent numbers as a stroke if they are permitted to do so. As soon as they learn of Hetaireiarches Kleisthenes rising into Nascent Soul it can be reasonably assumed Jingshen Junjie will proceed to raise a single Nascent even if they come from a source he does not prefer in order to maintain strategic parity."

He paused.

"We will not be allowing them to regain strategic parity. We have five offensive mobile Legions, and four Scorpion-borne traditional Legions who wage war more conventionally but have a high degree of mobility. Alongside this I have stripped our Core Formation and Foundation capabilities to the bone - all of you will be able to increase your Foundation numbers by nearly fifty percent, and all of you will have a second Core Formation Elder working as a powerful expert under your command. This leaves our operational capabilities in the west severely degraded, but I believe the trade off is worth it."

He smoothed out a map of the Jingshen territories.

"With the alignment of the Tao and Gaohao Bandits, we have managed to work out an agreement to permit our passage and supply through the Heavenly Bandit Kingdoms. Credit must go to those who worked as spies and diplomats in those lands - if this had not taken place, we would not have had a second strategic option in this war. Ultimately our strategic aims are simple. We seek to kill or cripple both Jingshen Nascent Souls, and then seize the entirety of their lands. The four Outer Clan families can be negotiated with, and we might well see our way open to letting some of them keep their mines if required to win the war. As a consequence we are not overly interested in besieging their lands unless forced to."

His fingers traced up along the three forts.

"My prior raids damaged these forts quite badly, but they should be mostly rebuilt, though I doubt they're fully operational. Our original theoretical war-plan was to strike through all three forts, taking them one by one with Nascent superiority and then cutting off all other Jingshen supplies and settling in to take the Outer Clans one by one before eventually starving out Old Jingshen over a few centuries. This is no longer necessary. Striking through Heavenly Bandit lands to the Heavenly Beauty Palace and True Son Peak are legitimate targets, and they are more important to Old Jingshen than the Outer Clan. In purely conventional terms, splitting our forces is sheer foolishness, but... Grand Elder?"

Manuel stood.

"You are all Legates, and should have some notion of Nascent warfare. I will speak plainly. Your lives must be risked in ways you might find foolish in order to lure opposing Nascent Souls out. There are two potential plans. Sheng Yu, outline your preferred plan and then I will outline mine, and we will put it up for discussion. Ordinarily I would simply make such decisions, but I am unfamiliar with the new offensive Legions to a degree. More importantly, I have not yet seen your precise limits and capabilities."

----------

[ ] Sheng Yu's plan.

"It's simplicity itself. Less risky, though more time-consuming. We push up through the Heavenly Beauty Palace, using the Hetaireiarches as the tip of the spear. She strikes along with the Legions, seizing everything. The Archegetes will be our strategic reserve, and we will simply take the enemy's lands one by one until we encircle them in the Underworld Spirit Palace. Ideally Old Jingshen will come out and permit us to disable him before this, but if not we then either besiege him until victory is had, or we can negotiate him leaving the Desert much as Old Cannibal was forced to before. The risks here are not operational - our victory is not assured, but despite massively superior Jingshen numbers they are not given to fighting wars en masse, and so after we crush a few enemy strikes with raw Nascent force we should be able take everything simply, though our chances of an outright victory are lower."

[ ] Manuel's plan

"Sheng Yu speaks wisely, but I will say this. His task is to preserve your forces and destroy the enemy as effectively as possible in a military sense. Mine is to spend your lives as wisely as possible so that they might benefit the Clan. Splitting up our forces seems foolish on the face of things, but making ourselves vulnerable is more likely to draw Old Jingshen out. If we make Lady Yao a visible defender within the lands of the Clan, and split our Legions into two forces, we are much more likely to be able to draw out Lady Jiao or Old Jingshen to destroy Legions as targets of opportunity. My aim is to send the Legions against both the Three Forts and the Heavenly Beauty Palace, capturing everything we can but doing so in an inferior manner that shows more vulnerability and weakness - and more potential for an enemy Nascent to annihilate Legions wholesale."

"It is by no means certain, but it is this genuine vulnerability that will give me the chance to engage and slay or cripple one of them. I anticipate casualties will be far higher, and you will be walking into a meat grinder. Invading from both sides with the occasional piece of Nascent aid will still permit us to advance and win, especially as we bring up Legions to secure any hardpoints we capture. It is an uncertain plan, but if we can win faster - and make no mistake, if we lose every single one of you and kill Old Jingshen that is a victory - it is less likely that the Righteous Powers will gain sufficient tempo in the Noble Devil War to be able to make us stop, or negotiate an inferior agreement in which we take only a portion of the Jingshen lands."

[ ] Write-in. Note that both Sheng Yu and Manuel will alter any write-in plans if they think there are unworkable parts to something they consider workable.

 

[occipitallobe]

As always I forget to open the vote.

 

[GlassOlive]

Just hashing this out on the discord and I thought I would share my summary of SPS's current offer to its allies. Feel free to @ me if I missed anything or get something wrong

So looking at the proposal again. It basically boils down to this.

•'One Banner': I'm reading this as ceding all military control to SPS.
• All Contribution Points come from SPS
• All wealth must be sent to SPS for 'safekeeping'
• 'Impartial' SPS elders decide all forms of remuneration. They set parameters and rewards for all missions.
• Death or ruin for anyone who holds back wealth or orders their own disciples to do anything other than what SPS wants

I think I am fair in calling this pretty much subjugation? It goes way beyond even a master and vassal relationship.

I think we might see a reasonable number of sects choose to take their chances or try and negotiate with the NDA for peace deals in return for tribute before signing on to this.

Its worth noting the Elder dropping the message didn't even try and soften her pitch with the 'only during the current crisis' line beloved by strongmen and dictators everywhen. Probably because its evident to anyone with eyes that while the Altar Sect might be about to go into hibernation, both Old Cannibal and the new Suped Up Noble Knowledge Sect are going to be long term problems.

And thats before we wipe out Jingshen and give them a convenient 3rd 'terrible evil' to rally with the troops with.

Edit: Changed the 4th bullet point in line with @Sirrocco suggestion.

Click to shrink...

Keep in mind that the SPS also has a strong incentive to exaggerate/overblow the terms, especially when talking to the Core/Foundation Establishment members of the council. Then they can ease off on their demands when they're talking Nascent to Nascent and the real decision making gets made - maybe each sect gets a guaranteed baseline portion of wealth, or gets to put an Elder on the renumeration council - and seem better for it.

A tendency we have It's easy, due to our access to OOC information, to assume other polities are stupid, or at least (to be more charitable) to interpret their actions in whatever seems best for us. As Old Cannibal showed us, Occi isn't making dumb decisions for them, and if this seems monumentally imbecilic on their part, there's probably something we don't know yet.

Edit: Removed blanket statement, accusatory-sounding phrases

 

[Lampshade]

[X] Plan Shell Game.

Kleisthenes and the legions besiege Yangshen Fort, while Yao musters bandits and attacks Heavenly Beauty Palace, incentivizing bandits with the promise of "reward" and recruiting anyone tired of the gilded cage.

Yao will carry talismans with Manuel's aura to fake his presence while the real Manuel stays hidden, not far behind.

We play on their arrogance and bloodline philosophy to make them believe Manuel would never abandon his true-blooded legions, that Yao is being shamelessly opportunistic and that their Forts can wait, allowing Manuel to spring the trap, should the Jingshen Nascent Souls come out to confront her.

Variations include Manuel staying in the vicinity of the Xi family to assist either force or sneaking all the way towards Wangshen Fort in an attempt to catch the Jingshen Nascent Souls in transit, if he feels up for a 2v1, or to follow Junjie if they split.

 

[065tdsa]

Fundamentally the issue is the Blood Path now has two Late Nascent Souls to the Righteous' one. Furthermore, Altar Lord and Old Cannibal are both cunning monsters and don't hate each other enough to not focus on the Righteous first. This means that not only is it now impossible for the Wei Princess to protect everyone if she wanted to, but there is a non-insignificant chance Altar Lord and Old Cannibal will come together and try to literally rip her in half.

The only possible way to counter that is by having multiple Nascent Souls who can be trusted to stand together against someone stronger instead of leaving each other to die, which is a rather endemic problem for the Righteous.

Therefore the SPS needs people to knuckle under and start fighting properly, and anyone who refuses will be left to die simply because they can't be protected.

 

[Sparsebeard]

[] Plan Frontal Assault : If we aim to force Old Jingshen into a confrontation let's give him no choice in the matter. Strike the Wangshen Fort, then, directly move on the Underworld Spirit Palace with an overwhelming force of armies and Nascent Soul support. Since both Manuel and Lady Yao are already known both of them should support the army with Lady Yao personally helping the armies and Manuel staying in the background and helping hide Kleisthenes so as to keep her existence and presence to the front unknown as long as possible. Junjie will have to make a stand somewhere or flee his very seat of power. Old Jingshen will get to fight us at the moment of his choice, of course, but by heading directly on the Jingshen's Capital we make sure to give as little time as possible to execute any plan.

 

[no.]

[X] Manuel's plan

Not even gonna consider any write-ins; this war is too important to do anything too cute.

Manuel's plan is fast, intense and has a high chance of killing one of their Nascents, while also effectively making use of the forces at our disposal.

 

[adamashield]

[X] Manuel's plan

Need for speed, need to find the soft target and need to kill the servant cores that could become NS while still being enemies.
win win.

 

[Rakuhn]

[X] Manuel's plan

 

[occipitallobe]

[X] Plan Shell Game.

Kleisthenes and the legions besiege Yangshen Fort, while Yao musters bandits and attacks Heavenly Beauty Palace, incentivizing bandits with the promise of "reward" and recruiting anyone tired of the gilded cage.

Yao will carry talismans with Manuel's aura to fake his presence while the real Manuel stays hidden, not far behind.

We play on their arrogance and bloodline philosophy to make them believe Manuel would never abandon his true-blooded legions, that Yao is being shamelessly opportunistic and that their Forts can wait, allowing Manuel to spring the trap, should the Jingshen Nascent Souls come out to confront her.

Variations include Manuel staying in the vicinity of the Xi family to assist either force or sneaking all the way towards Wangshen Fort in an attempt to catch the Jingshen Nascent Souls in transit, if he feels up for a 2v1, or to follow Junjie if they split.

Click to shrink...

This plan isn't dissimilar to what Manuel has planned, but deploying all three Nascent Souls means that the Jingshen are just unlikely to engage directly. The ultimate calculus here is 'do we appear very strong and try and win conventionally, and then be forced into a negotiation at the end or a long, long siege, or do we take risks to try and lure the Nascent Souls into a favorable fight. This is midway between the two plans.

[] Plan Frontal Assault : If we aim to force Old Jingshen into a confrontation let's give him no choice in the matter. Strike the Wangshen Fort, then, directly move on the Underworld Spirit Palace with an overwhelming force of armies and Nascent Soul support. Since both Manuel and Lady Yao are already known both of them should support the army with Lady Yao personally helping the armies and Manuel staying in the background and helping hide Kleisthenes so as to keep her existence and presence to the front unknown as long as possible. Junjie will have to make a stand somewhere or flee his very seat of power. Old Jingshen will get to fight us at the moment of his choice, of course, but by heading directly on the Jingshen's Capital we make sure to give as little time as possible to execute any plan.

Click to shrink...

Manuel would veto this out of hand. He doesn't know what sort of defenses they have in the Underworld Spirit Palace, but usually most powers have a core reserve of strength in some single absurdly overfortified place specifically so if they lose a Nascent battle they can recover and recuperate without losing everything. There are also large risks in moving all three Nascent Souls out of our territory. Capital holdings have usually been fortified for centuries or millennia - whether we reach the Spirit Underworld Palace in a month or five years is unlikely to make an appreciable difference to its defensive strength. Taking it is probably the least plausible thing to do in any short timeframe unless we specifically manage to win a Nascent victory first.

 

[Shaper47]

[X] Manuel's plan

 

[gigantisrex]

[X] Manuel's plan

 

[occipitallobe]

I just wrote this on Discord, and felt it might help with anyone wanting to write a plan. Write-ins should really look to address three questions.

(1) What level of risk do we want to take? Are we exposing Legions, Nascents, or neither? The more risk we take on the more likely it is the Jingshen commit their Nascents to battle, but, y'know, the risk.

(2) Are we deploying all three Nascents or just two? This ties into the above - but without a defender at home we do run the risk of the Jingshen flying over our back lines and hitting us in the rear.

(3) What is our ultimate aim in the war? Are we going for a straight decapitation strike or are we happy to settle for a long siege and a diplomatic settlement at the end?

Specifics like talismans and the like can be written in, but assume Manuel will use all means at his disposal to carry out any plan as best he can.

 

[Rakuhn]

I think we need to keep our third nascent hidden until we engage the Jingshen Nascents. That alone means that Sheng Yun's plan in unadvisable.

I'm perfectly fine with a negotiated settlement, but I want to achieve our victory as quickly as possible. After (if we are fortunate to do so) we cripple or kill our first nascent, I would be in favor of starting negotiations (assuming doing so wouldn't allow them to create new nascents while negotiations are ongoing).

 

[Sirrocco]

I think we need to keep our third nascent hidden until we engage the Jingshen Nascents. That alone means that Sheng Yun's plan in unadvisable.

I'm perfectly fine with a negotiated settlement, but I want to achieve our victory as quickly as possible. After (if we are fortunate to do so) we cripple or kill our first nascent, I would be in favor of starting negotiations (assuming doing so wouldn't allow them to create new nascents while negotiations are ongoing).

Click to shrink...

No... because then our victory cannot possibly be complete. We have a chance to end this, without interference from anyone, and the payoff for doing so is extreme. We should take this blessed chance that we have been given. A "negotiated settlement" that does not end with "we own the desert" is not acceptable... and I don't believe we'll get that from our first few exchanges.

 

[Lampshade]

Is this single vote or approval?

Here's what else comes to mind:

[ ] Original Plan, Fast and Furious Edition.

Sheng Yu is knowledgable about the land and suspects the Forts are not fully operational yet. We will fully leverage Nascent superiority and beat down the main line as quickly as possible with Manuel holding nothing back, spearing everyone left and right while wearing Junjie's hat. ( All three nascent Souls out in the open to force a fast surrender. )

[ ] Plan split attention.

Kleisthenes invades Yangshen Fort, Yao Heavenly Beauty Palace and Manuel the Xi family to form a single wide front. ( We pressure the Jingshen troops to realize they are only used to raiding and have no idea what to do in a large scale total war, prompting their surrender. )

---
I'm not buying Manuel's plan due to the possibility of Junjie immediately promoting two more NS and presenting us with impossible choices on both fronts.

 

[Sirrocco]

Is this single vote or approval?

I'm not buying Manuel's plan due to the possibility of Junjie immediately promoting two more NS and presenting us with impossible choices on both fronts.

Click to shrink...

He's not going to force-promote two Nascents if he thinks he has a good chance of winning without that... and force-promoting Nascents takes time. Given that Manuel's plan is based on convincing him to go opportunistic on killing undefended legions, and hasn't yet revealed Klei, that's not "promote the politically unreliable Nascents" time, yet... especially since if he promotes either of the Servant Elder Nascents, that does severe damage to his social contract all by itself.

 

[Lampshade]

He's not going to force-promote two Nascents if he thinks he has a good chance of winning without that...

Click to shrink...

If I'm Old Jingshen and I see Manuel invade this confidently, especially after Jiao saw him literally appear out of thin air to intercede, I smell a massive rat.

Is he trying to make me waste a breakthrough treasure? I can promote the Outer Elder for now and if it's a bluff, I send him to the Battlefield for diplomacy points.

I'd kick out the deadbeat descendants to stall while I promote a third NS and see what happens in the meanwhile.

Also, Manuel being the tip of the spear is the best opportunity to show off Junjie's hat. We could still give it to someone else, but that just wouldn't be nearly so personal.

Are we going for a straight decapitation strike or are we happy to settle for a long siege and a diplomatic settlement at the end?

Click to shrink...

Does Manuel believe it possible to force Junjie to leave if everything except USP is conquered?

 

[Halliax]

[X] Manuel's plan

 

[dbRevned]

[X] Manuel's plan

 

[cheesyme]

[X] Manuel's plan

 

[Sirrocco]

If I'm Old Jingshen and I see Manuel invade this confidently, especially after Jiao saw him literally appear out of thin air to intercede, I smell a massive rat.

Is he trying to make me waste a breakthrough treasure? I can promote the Outer Elder for now and if it's a bluff, I send him to the Battlefield for diplomacy points.

I'd kick out the deadbeat descendants to stall while I promote a third NS and see what happens in the meanwhile.

Also, Manuel being the tip of the spear is the best opportunity to show off Junjie's hat. We could still give it to someone else, but that just wouldn't be nearly so personal.

Click to shrink...

Here's what Old Jingshen sees. He sees a bunch of legions assaulting up the Scorpion Road... in ways that leave them a bit vulnerable. He sees another bunch of them assaulting up from the Bandit lands, in ways that leave them a bit vulnerable. There are a number of options he has here... but if promoting the Outer Elder was free for him, he would have done.

Realistically, in Old Jingshen's shoes, you would have promoted the Outer Elder turns ago, right?

 

[Kaboomatic]

[X] Plan Shell Game, Modified
-[X] Manuel and Kleisthenes only, Manuel heading a western Prong, Kleisthenes Southern.
--[X] There are two advantages we have in terms of force obfuscation. The first is the spear, hard earned and only brought about by Jin Muyi's sacrifice. The Second is Kleisthenes. I will attack from the west, challenging Junjie and his daughter implicitly, daring them to face me. Junjie now has a choice. On the one hand, this may be a bluff, and I may be obfuscating another nascent or stalling him. But Lady Yao will be seen elsewhere in our core territories, and Kleisthenes' tribulation was barely a nascent tribulation at all, fitting more with a Core Formation, or a Single Pillar 'King', of which we now have several. On the other hand, this may be me hiding a new secret weapon, a single use treasure to kill a nascent perhaps, or something else. The benefit of a competent opponent is that you can predict them, at least slightly, and Junjie is definitely competent. But this time, I don't need to predict him. Either he sees that this is a bluff, moves to protect the south, and I run rampant over his best defenses, or he sees that this is me bluffing of a different sort, attacks me, and I spear him through the chest. Either way, once one 'bluff' is revealed, he will be blinded to the other.
-[X] Feint Manuel's presence in both prongs, Manuel obscures himself while cracking open and salvaging the contents of the Forts.
--[X] Of course, why settle for merely one layer of obfuscation? A wise old man once said to 'look underneath the underneath', both in war and in peace. That wise old man was me, and I said it for the first time just now. Hopefully, without a Dao of secrets such as mine, Junjie won't have the same wisdom. If one force is moving into his territory without a Nascent, Junjie will rightly assume that there's a deeper trick in play. But he will make that assumption no matter what, so I'll have him assume that a different trick is in play. I will be in both assaults at the same time, or at least, I'll pretend to be. Of course, with mere misinformation, Junjie will easily notice the trick, so I must do something more. I have dozens, if not hundreds of treasures and arts and one use techniques, and more than a few of them can serve my purposes perfectly. Obviously, I'll be using all of them, because what's the point in not giving something your all? And to further complicate matters, some of my obfuscation techniques will be used on Kleisthenes as well as a few random cores. With any luck, she'll be mistaken for one of my clones
-[X] Swift operational Tempo spearheaded by Nascents to bait out Nascent Soul engagements. Wound and drive off Jingshen. Kill Jiao and other Nascents that may appear.
--[X] The heart of this war is Nascent battle, and we have the initiative. We hold the advantage right now, but given time and impetus Old Jingshen will equalise the balance in a heartbeat. Therefore, my strategem is henceforth: We will proceed with a two-pronged assault, one from the west and one from the south. Their objectives are irrelevant; their role is to be bait, dangerous enough to threaten the Jingshen Clan but not too important that their deaths will cripple us. Your roles will not be to win the war, but to tempt the Jingshen Nascents into action. Once done, Second Elder Kleisthenes and I will manage the rest. As long as the first blow is true and Old Jingshen is crippled, we will win this war in good order.

Credit to @ReaderOfFate and @Swordomatic for their huge help with the fluff and the actual plan itself.

Right, so I think this is better than shell game. It's minimizing the risks and obfuscating our force by leaving Yao behind to protect our lands and make Jingshen even more paranoid and on edge, making it near impossible for him to think clearly enough to actually produce an intelligent strategy, but also making him confident enough to not immediately raise outer elders as Nascents.

Our western prong can turn the forts against Cloud Jade City itself, and our southern strike means that if all goes well, we'll be in True Son Peak before anyone knows what happened.

If Jingshen does launch an attack on Kleisthenes, or if her legion is simply overwhelmed, then Manuel's able to respond easily.

The worst case scenario is that Jingshen attacks Kleisthenes, requiring Manuel to rush over to aid her, and letting Jiao roll over the western prong. Even then, we now have two Nascents backing up a push into the weakest parts of Jingshen territory, with Old Jingshen himself wounded and Jiao out of place to respond.

TLDR 2:
- Normal Legions occupying the western forts means they can be turned against Cloud Jade City
- Invading Legions down South means they can focus on quicly making their way to True Son Peak
- Manuel Positioning means he can respond to any attack Jingshen Makes, or if Kleisthenes is at risk of being overwhelmed
- Hypothetical "Worst case scenario" is Jiao wiping out the western prong unopposed while Jingshen gets his ass beat for having gone after the southern prong
- Yao being in Core Territories means that base is covered, and Jingshen is unlikely to crash raise his nascents from the start in favor of saving them for a reserve force
- Best Case Scenario is that Jingshen sends Jiao after the southern Prong without backup

 

[ReaderOfFate]

[X] Plan Shell Game, Modified

 

[Swordomatic]

[X] Plan Shell Game, Modified